[PEACH]Fifth Edition Binder Class II (Still WIP)

[Prince Zahn]

Now, honestly, I'm thinking we shold drop unfettered. It just seems like there's too much going on, looking back at the original posts. Are we starting this again? I think we can still do things with the released fate, we just need to get a little creative. We only put it away because my head was hurting from rapidly shifting topics.


Speaking of, since you're redoing the codex anyways, what say you or I do a refresh of the Binder thread? It's getting a bit bloated, and the initial post with all the class info is out of date.
Hey I'm sorry about all the inconvenience with the front page!
I requested from scarce to rework the codex because realistically I have a lot on my plate. I DO intend to get back to managing this project once I have the leisure. I may have a few things on to get done first because real life is hard atm, but I'm not done with the original page yet.

If you would like to point out what needs updating in the chassis, it might speed things along a little bit though.
As for subclasses - it would help if someone could find the latest versions of them, there are a lot of bugs that need cleaning in that department all around anyway.

[Submortimer]

Are we starting this again? I think we can still do things with the released fate, we just need to get a little creative. We only put it away because my head was hurting from rapidly shifting topics.


I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying that we already have 4 completed subclasses, and in the interests of both time and PDF size, we should probably cut Released Fate for now and release (ha!) it later as supplemental material. One of the things that kinda concerns me is that we all seem to be losing steam, and that is often the death of big projects like this. Let's polish up what is done, and let Scarce get to work on what is likely to be a beast of a PDF.



Hey I'm sorry about all the inconvenience with the front page!
I requested from scarce to rework the codex because realistically I have a lot on my plate. I DO intend to get back to managing this project once I have the leisure. I may have a few things on to get done first because real life is hard atm, but I'm not done with the original page yet.

If you would like to point out what needs updating in the chassis, it might speed things along a little bit though.
As for subclasses - it would help if someone could find the latest versions of them, there are a lot of bugs that need cleaning in that department all around anyway.

I don't think the Chassis needs any more work, I just think that the original few posts are not well formatted and need some rework, plus this thread is getting very long in the tooth. I think reposting the original class, subclasses, and associated material with links to scarce's thread would make it much more clean for people looking at ithe who are new to the project.

[Scarce]

I'm with Submortimer on keeping the Unfettered fate tabled for now in the interests of moving forward. 4 subclasses is plenty for playtesting, and we have plenty of work ahead of us yet.


I don't think the Chassis needs any more work, I just think that the original few posts are not well formatted and need some rework, plus this thread is getting very long in the tooth. I think reposting the original class, subclasses, and associated material with links to scarce's thread would make it much more clean for people looking at ithe who are new to the project.
I agree with you, but I'd like to be through the first editing phase before we do a repost, such that we can confidently say to playtesters that we've looked at each individual element of this class, if not every possible interaction one can have with vestiges. With some help from you guys, this'll be soon. Then the focus can shift into a balancing and playtesting phase, and I can work on the PDF.

The new codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938) is up to 5th level. 6th level is a nightmare right now.


Let's talk about these 6th level vestiges, shall we? Because of how varied these entries are, this time for comments I'll be asking questions about a lot more topics.

Andromalius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20090360&postcount=476)
- You can't be surprised
- Blindsight 30 feet
- Remove a creature's proficiency bonus
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1+Cha/short)
- Otto's Irresistible Dance (1/long)

Chupoclops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19835224&postcount=208)
This vestige tries to do too many things, and needs a rewrite for thematic consistency. The new version should focus entirely on having monstrous features and ethereal stuff (meaning a few of the current features can be salvaged, if one desires.) Scrap despair for thematic focus. Furthermore, it does need a little more power.

Geryon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19706012&postcount=37)
- Darkvision, 60 feet. Can see in magical darkness
- 1 target, Con save vs 3d6 acid + 3d4 at beginning of target's turn. 17th level (4d8 / 4d4)
- fly, bonus action, (1/short)
- Creatures in 30 feet, Wis save or frightened for 1 minute (1/short)
- eyebite (1/long)

Zagan (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19814073&postcount=162)
- Advantage on attacks against snakes.
- Resistance to poison damage, advantage against being poisoned
- Advantage to track by smell. Limited blindsight: detect presence of creatures within 30 feet.
- Grappling stuff
○ Unarmed Strike: bonus action to begin grapple
○ Advantage on attacks against a creature you are grappling
○ You can pin
- Deal 2d6+Str to creature you grapple, bonus action
- 1 creature, Wis save or frightened for 1 hour, action (1/short)


This one is pretty straightforward to me. It has a lot of good stuff, but needs some simple edits, so I think I'll just make the following changes in the codex: Give rogue's Blindsense feature instead of blindsight.
Make interception impose disadvantage on a creature you can see.
Tasha's hideous laughter is at will.

Should the acidic gaze thing deal half damage on a failed save? Right now, it doesn't.
Is granting fly on a short rest recharge too powerful? A one per short rest 3rd level spell at this level should be fine, but fly feels like it's different than other spells.


Why doesn't the grapple stuff include all the stuff from the grappler feat? Maybe serpent's grasp and serpent's crush should be merged for tidiness.
Thought: while bound to Zagan, increase max HP by level. You need to incentivize a binder to go in close-quarters, and incentivise non-grapple builds to use Zagan.
Is 1 hour too long for frighten, even single target?With input on this last point, I can probably fix Zagan right up myself. It's probably the strongest of this batch.

[Scarce]

Oh, and I almost forgot: if anyone cares, I did that rewrite on Haagenti as well:

Bonus Proficiencies
While bound to Haagenti, you have proficiency with shields, battleaxes, and greataxes.

Fighting Style
You adopt the following style of fighting as your specialty. You can't take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Great Weapon Fighting. When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

Immunity to Transformation
As a bonus action, you can end the effects of any transmutation spell affecting you that you choose. You are also immune to being petrified.

Cleave
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.

Minotaur's Size
As an action you can gain the "enlarge" effect of the enlarge/reduce spell for 1 minute, without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must take a long rest before casting it again.
It's also available on the Codex.

[Prince Zahn]

I'm with Submortimer on keeping the Unfettered fate tabled for now in the interests of moving forward. 4 subclasses is plenty for playtesting, and we have plenty of work ahead of us yet.


I agree with you, but I'd like to be through the first editing phase before we do a repost, such that we can confidently say to playtesters that we've looked at each individual element of this class, if not every possible interaction one can have with vestiges. With some help from you guys, this'll be soon. Then the focus can shift into a balancing and playtesting phase, and I can work on the PDF.

The new codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938) is up to 5th level. 6th level is a nightmare right now.


Let's talk about these 6th level vestiges, shall we? Because of how varied these entries are, this time for comments I'll be asking questions about a lot more topics.

Andromalius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20090360&postcount=476)
- You can't be surprised
- Blindsight 30 feet
- Remove a creature's proficiency bonus
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1+Cha/short)
- Otto's Irresistible Dance (1/long)

Chupoclops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19835224&postcount=208)
This vestige tries to do too many things, and needs a rewrite for thematic consistency. The new version should focus entirely on having monstrous features and ethereal stuff (meaning a few of the current features can be salvaged, if one desires.) Scrap despair for thematic focus. Furthermore, it does need a little more power.

[URL="http://www.giantitp.com
This one is pretty straightforward to me. It has a lot of good stuff, but needs some simple edits, so I think I'll just make the following changes in the codex: Give rogue's Blindsense feature instead of blindsight.
Make interception impose disadvantage on a creature you can see.
Tasha's hideous laughter is at will.


I reckon if the majority has spoken, we could make a 3rd binder thread and clean this stuff up, as scarce said, not yet at least. While I'm admittedly not the best at presentation by any sense, I'd still like to pull my share of this project in every way I can, though I'm usually much better at it when I know what I must do.
I'll link your vestige Codex to the OP later today, let me know if there's anything else I could do.


I would be much more inclined to blindsense if it wasn't a 14th level feature, but I do see your point.
I can live with that.
I can live with that too.

[Scarce]

Hold on, Andromalius is the Repentant Rogue in Tome of Magic, rather than the Woeful Jester. I'm not against the change (I'm totally indifferent), it just caught me by surprise. Why the name change, Zahn?

[Prince Zahn]

It was mostly a whim to be frank, I didn't think it would hurt anybody if I played with the concept a little. He seemed mechanically more about finding stolen goods and stopping thieves with their own tools despite striking me as more of a jester rogue. He used to have sneak attack too, which I didn't want to pass on. So I changed a few things to hopefully work as a 6th level vestige. If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.

[Scarce]

It was mostly a whim to be frank, I didn't think it would hurt anybody if I played with the concept a little. He seemed mechanically more about finding stolen goods and stopping thieves with their own tools despite striking me as more of a jester rogue. He used to have sneak attack too, which I didn't want to pass on. So I changed a few things to hopefully work as a 6th level vestige. If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.
I'm totally fine with it. It's a small change, but it's true to the character, so I say it stays

[Wyntonian]

If it bothers people enough we can change it back, but I would be less fond of it creatively.

I have no objections. Sorry to be near-invisible but I'm a week from finishing my semester and I found a well of discipline somewhere so I've actually been focused on writing essays. I'll review the 6th level vestiges and maybe the subclasses when I'm done.

[Scarce]

I have no objections. Sorry to be near-invisible but I'm a week from finishing my semester and I found a well of discipline somewhere so I've actually been focused on writing essays. I'll review the 6th level vestiges and maybe the subclasses when I'm done.
No problem, dude. I'm taking finals soon here too, so I might vanish for a day or so at a time.

[Scarce]

I went ahead and played with Zagan. It's pretty similar to what Submortimer first brought to us, but with a few pretty big changes (most notably, merging Serpent's Grasp and Serpent Crush, adding Durable Form to make grappling more viable, and changing Serpent's Terror.) Lemme know if you guys have any thoughts on this.

Zagan
Duke of Disappointment
6th Level Vestige

Durable Form
While bound to Zagan, your hit point maximum increases by your binder level.

Serpent's Senses
You gain the ability to detect creatures by smell. You gain advantage on any skill checks made to track a creature by smell. You also gain a limited form of blindsight: you can detect the presence of any living creature within 30 feet. This ability is disrupted by highly strong smells or any other condition which might block scent.

Serpent's Bane
You gain advantage on attacks made against yuan-ti, snakes, or other snake-like creatures. Additionally, you gain resistance to poison damage and advantage on saving throws made to resist being poisoned.

Serpent's Grasp
You gain the ability to grapple foes like a snake. This grants you a number of benefits:
• Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning or piercing damage.
• When you hit a large or smaller creature with an Unarmed Strike, you may use a bonus action to attempt to grapple it.
• You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling.
• You can use your action to try to pin a creature grappled by you. To do so, make another grapple check. If you succeed, you and the creature are both restrained until the grapple ends.
• You can constrict a foe you are grappling as a bonus action, dealing 2d8 + your Strength modifier bludgeoning damage.

Serpent's Terror
You can cast the spell fear without expending a spell slot or spell components. Creatures effected by this spell are also frightened by snakes and snake-like creatures for the duration. After casting this spell, you must take a short or long rest before casting it again.

[Scarce]

You guys still around? The current order of business is to rewrite Chupoclops and Marchosias, and Zahn needs to finish Eurynome.

[Prince Zahn]

You guys still around? The current order of business is to rewrite Chupoclops and Marchosias, and Zahn needs to finish Eurynome.

Still here! Didn't get as much chance lately to be active, lots of things want to take priority at once as I struggle to find time to breathe

Eurynome is a rather difficult one, to be frank. I opted against wild shape recently upon looking at the standard druid chassis getting a limited CR of 1 to choose from. It feels wrong for me to offer to become CR 2-3 beasts even once per long.
I'm also thinking about what I could do to replace the at-will sleet storm, or at least make it 1/rest. I might keep the elemental in anyway, even though I'm not into minionmancy. But I'm not likely to go farther than 1 summon.

[Scarce]

Still here! Didn't get as much chance lately to be active, lots of things want to take priority at once as I struggle to find time to breathe

Eurynome is a rather difficult one, to be frank. I opted against wild shape recently upon looking at the standard druid chassis getting a limited CR of 1 to choose from. It feels wrong for me to offer to become CR 2-3 beasts even once per long.
I'm also thinking about what I could do to replace the at-will sleet storm, or at least make it 1/rest. I might keep the elemental in anyway, even though I'm not into minionmancy. But I'm not likely to go farther than 1 summon.

I took the liberty of rewriting Eurynome's legend (a few small changes went a long way.) The new legend paints Eurynome as the first druid, and focuses on her creation of life, rather than her separation of sea and sky.
Eurynome is considered by many to be the first Druid. In life, she was a primordial titan that walked alongside the gods before recorded time. While the Titans battled the essence of chaos of the Outer Planes, Eurynome tired of the endless violence and fled to the unformed Material Plane. Instead she practiced creation, separating the ocean and the sky, filling the ocean with fish and the sky with clouds. Because of her meddling, the gods struck her down and she perished on the Material Plane, her body becoming the first island, and her blood giving birth to the first plants and animals.

Druids of the eldest circles venerate Eurynome for being so in touch with nature that she came to embody it, as they ultimately aspire to.

I've been considering what the build would be like if it was just druid spellcasting, with a focus on exploration. It might look like this:

Cantrips: shillelagh, thorn whip
animal friendship (at will)
speak with animals, locate animals or plants, beast sense (as ritual)
barkskin (self-only at will)
conjure animals (1/short)
polymorph (1/long)
awaken (1/long)
Do you prefer this simpler druid spellcaster approach, or would you rather keep your current approach?

[Dralnu]

This looks amazing. I've linked this thread over to Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3wj004/the_biweekly_homebrew_review_suggestion_thread_8/); I figured you guys would like additional eyes/feedback on it.

[Scarce]

This looks amazing. I've linked this thread over to Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3wj004/the_biweekly_homebrew_review_suggestion_thread_8/); I figured you guys would like additional eyes/feedback on it.
More eyes are always welcome.

Status update for newcomers: This class playtest-ready up to 10th level, to my knowledge. We're bringing the first edit phase to a close. We should have a fully complete Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938) and a newly revised class chassis by year's end.

[Wyntonian]

Hey folks,

I'm in the process of building an Eldritch Fate binder, and I was wondering what class I take my spells from. I know I get my cantrips from the Sorceror spell list, and I can get additional spells from the Bard, Sorceror or Warlock lists upon binding a vestige, I just don't know what list I take the rest of my my spells from.

[Scarce]

Hey folks,

I'm in the process of building an Eldritch Fate binder, and I was wondering what class I take my spells from. I know I get my cantrips from the Sorceror spell list, and I can get additional spells from the Bard, Sorceror or Warlock lists upon binding a vestige, I just don't know what list I take the rest of my my spells from.

First thing, be sure that the version that you're using is no mechanically different than this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19884788&postcount=318) (just to be sure that we're on the same page; the main post might not be up to date.)

You're right that it doesn't state where you should get your original spells from, but I believe that it should say that you select all your spells from the bard, sorcerer, or warlock spell list.

[Scarce]

Also, quick and dirty Marchosias.

Marchosias
King of Killers
7th Level Vestige

Bonus Proficiencies
You gain proficiency with hand crossbows, scimitars, shortswords, the disguise kit and the poisoner’s kit.

Fighting Styles
You gain the following two fighting styles.

Dueling. When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Two-Weapon Fighting. When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

Quick to Act
You have advantage on initiative rolls.

Silent and Sure
When you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check and the result is less than 10, you can treat it as a 10.

Death Attack
You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, when you hit a creature that hasn't taken a turn in combat yet with a melee weapon attack, you can deal an additional 8d10 damage. After using this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can use it again.

[Prince Zahn]

I thought we opted against the bard spell list because healing?

EDIT: I like marchosias! The only thing that irks me is getting *2* fighting styles in the same vestige, which usual shouldn't be an easy thing to do in the confines of the same class.

[Wyntonian]

First thing, be sure that the version that you're using is no mechanically different than this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19884788&postcount=318) (just to be sure that we're on the same page; the main post might not be up to date.)

You're right that it doesn't state where you should get your original spells from, but I believe that it should say that you select all your spells from the bard, sorcerer, or warlock spell list.

That one looks identical at a glance. I'm hesitant about a subclass granting access to two, let alone three spell lists. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights only get two schools of wizard spells to choose from, and I think that's a reasonable baseline. I'll be the first to say I'm not sure what schools are most pertinent (conjuration, maybe?), so alternatively we could just go with the Warlock list, as we are using the Warlock spellcasting model



I thought we opted against the bard spell list because healing?

EDIT: I like marchosias! The only thing that irks me is getting *2* fighting styles in the same vestige, which usual shouldn't be an easy thing to do in the confines of the same class.

I agree on both. I feel that healing should be a perk we save for certain vestiges, not something that any Eldritch Fate could do.

Marchosias looks good, the only thing keeping me from being as irked as Prince Zahn is that the fighting styles cannot be used simultaneously. Still, I'm wondering if there might not be a better choice. Maybe some perk to throwing daggers in lieu of dueling? Seems compatible and thematic, as you can stab with a shortsword and then fling a dagger in the same attack action with two-weapon fighting. Damage seems too obvious, and the TWF style already gives dex/str to damage. The vestige seems fairly mundane, too, so a magically conjured poisoned knife feels out of place as well. I'll meditate on this.

In other news, I just sent in my last final essay, so this project has as close to my full attention as anything does these days. Expect me to get to work on some of my previously assigned tasks over the next few days.

[Scarce]

That one looks identical at a glance. I'm hesitant about a subclass granting access to two, let alone three spell lists. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights only get two schools of wizard spells to choose from, and I think that's a reasonable baseline. I'll be the first to say I'm not sure what schools are most pertinent (conjuration, maybe?), so alternatively we could just go with the Warlock list, as we are using the Warlock spellcasting model
For now, going with the warlock spell list is totally a better thing to go with. I should have combed over the spell lists more closely earlier.


Marchosias looks good, the only thing keeping me from being as irked as Prince Zahn is that the fighting styles cannot be used simultaneously.
Well, I think you and Zahn have different complaints on this one. Zahn seems to think that it doesn't work because two fighting styles is too powerful, where your complaint seems to be that you can't use both at once. The latter effect was the intent here, actually, as I thought it gave the player an interesting choice in combat. In fact, I thought that without giving this to the vestige that it felt too weak for 7th level.


In other news, I just sent in my last final essay, so this project has as close to my full attention as anything does these days. Expect me to get to work on some of my previously assigned tasks over the next few days.
Woo! I've wrapped up my finals too, so I have plenty of time to work on this. My current order of business is to wrap up levels 7-9 of vestiges. Also, Zahn needs to finish Eurynome. I've given Chupoclops a substantial rewrite, which is up on the Codex. Feel free to try to write a version yourself if the fancy strikes you. That, with Marchosias finishes up the vestiges we absolutely have to have rewritten for the next phase; things just need to be balanced relative to one another.

While I'm wrapping this up, looking at the class as a whole in the form of build-testing and play-testing is essential (and if anything strikes you as weird or off-balance, bring it up.) As we learn more about how the class handles as a cohesive whole, it will either be:

Too weak --> re-balance the class chassis to afford more damage/survivability.
Too strong --> re-balance the class chassis to impose harsher limits on the number of vestiges. Fix problem vestiges. Change HD to d6 if power is drastically too high.
Depends strongly on vestiges --> re-balance problem vestiges with a consistent damage output in mind.

[Scarce]

I worked up a vestige card mockup today. I'm not super happy with the way it came out, and I think I'll crack out a physical pen and paper and do some iterations on the layout before I make another one. Still, I thought I'd get some early thoughts.


Should I stick with this color scheme or try out cooler colors?
How prominent should the different (vestige level, binding DC, name, title) elements be and where are your perferred locations for these?
I'm pretty sure I'll abandon bulletpoint formatting for the feature text, but I'm not sure how to make it legible and space-efficient. Ideas?


http://s1.postimg.org/59lm6mkor/Card_Test.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/59lm6mkor/)

(When printed, these are going to be 2.5x3.5 inches, same as a Magic card, so industrious players can put them in card sleeves.)

[Prince Zahn]

I worked up a vestige card mockup today. I'm not super happy with the way it came out, and I think I'll crack out a physical pen and paper and do some iterations on the layout before I make another one. Still, I thought I'd get some early thoughts.


Should I stick with this color scheme or try out cooler colors?
How prominent should the different (vestige level, binding DC, name, title) elements be and where are your perferred locations for these?
I'm pretty sure I'll abandon bulletpoint formatting for the feature text, but I'm not sure how to make it legible and space-efficient. Ideas?
I see what you mean by the color scheme, it's very Playground Sand and not very reminiscent of Tome of Magic, tbh I never felt a great compulsion to preserve the Tome of Magic to the letter, great book as it may be, and would sometimes feel it best to just do my own interpretation of things. That being said, it certainly says "GitP" and not "ToM" or "Binder". Personally when I think of a binder's color scheme, I think of the chapter in the ToM colors - beige/brown with blue/green/teal... Ish.
An alternative would be to make an homage to more demonic roots, and make the cards black with red frames and white or red text, or to go with like a stone slab which I thought was kind of cool when WotC did it.
Well, I think it's pretty important information, most importantly the name and level, but name/title and level I think you did quite well in terms of prominence because you will certainly notice them first. I think it's intuitive to look for name and title at the top. I would imagine details Like BDC and level could also go on the bottom corner or somewhere in the mid-left or mid-right edge, having the level stand out would be handy when you're rummaging for vestiges of certain levels, but a disadvantage when saving space, so it depends. BDC can be relatively small or description sized, preferably bold since you'll be looking for that to during a session, but it's not a detail of high profile like name and title.
The problem is with text descriptions is that it takes a lot of space to explain normally, and on a card the size of a TCG playing card I don't think you have the space to spare.
As for ideas, one thing I noticed that trading cards use to save space is symbolism, like a tiny picture or character or acronym etc that means what you want to to, like short or long rest based abilities being worded as S or L or SL.
Hellish Rebuke (10th level: 2/S)] , or just make a symbol that means short rest like Magic made symbols for mana types. Or use symbols for types of damage. Etc.

Hope it helps!

(When printed, these are going to be 2.5x3.5 inches, same as a Magic card, so industrious players can put them in card sleeves.) good lord that's brilliant! :smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[Scarce]

Attempt number 2. I'm a little more happy with this one for composition reasons, but I still might experiment with other versions to be sure I'm happy with everything.

Background redesigned with a little more polish. Color scheme tweaked, and the terms Passive, Weapon, Action, and Spell are used to define types of features.

http://s27.postimg.org/iijeiwz1b/Card_Test_2.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/iijeiwz1b/)

[Twelvetrees]

Okay, time for another look at this.

Twisted Fate

With Unnatural Weapon, what reason would a player have to choose Tail over Tentacles? Can I get an example of how an extra hand would be helpful? The way I see it, an extra hand isn't necessary for the actions that it grants.

Eldritch Fate

Anima Mark's ability to affect other an ally with Range: Self spells could have some powerful consequences. Namely, being able to cast Blur, Mirror Image, and Armor of Agathys on the party's bruiser as well as one's self.


Vestiges


Hey, welcome Twelvetrees! We could use critique all around, but, since I'm interested in how the subclasses interact with the vestige system, I think we could use a look at the vestiges level-by-level (beginning with level 1). I'm interested in a few things:


How each vestige compares in power individually to vestiges of the same level
How easy the vestige is to understand
How (at lower levels) a vestige holds up as the only one bound
How (at higher levels) vestiges synergize with each other and with feats

I believe this is by far the greatest need at this moment.

I'm going to rate each vestige on a scale of 1-10 for each of these points as well as going over each of the vestige's abilities on its own. Synergy will be evaluated after I've judged each of the vestiges on its own, so it may be a little while before I get to it.

Level 1:

Amon:

Power- 6
Ease of Understanding- 10
Only One Bound- 7

Darkvision and Ancient Rivalry are both circumstantial, which means that they likely won't have much impact on the the strength of this vestige. Amon's Horns main benefit is the ability to use them to knock a creature prone, and this bumps up the power of this vestige. Breathe Fire is equivalent in power to a cantrip and allows the binder to target multiple enemies, which gives a little bit greater versatility to the Binder. Being able to hold it for a round seems a little strange unless you expect enemies to clump toether next round.

Impervious Flames only affects Hellish Rebuke if this is the only vestige bound, making it potentially a little weak, but it also means that this vestige is especially useful for Eldritch Fate Binders. Hellish Rebuke is a nice reaction to have, especially because most Binders will have low AC.


Aoskar:

Power- 4
Ease of Understanding- 8
Only One Bound- 3

Divine Influence gives a few cantrips, making it ruffly equivalent to what a primary caster would get for cantrips. Dimensional Leap allows the Binder to always be able to get away from foes and some amazing utility for movement, which helps with the power of this vestige. Teleport Without Error does absolutely nothing for low-level Binders, while not adding much power for higher level Binders either because it only affects the Binder--it really doesn't add much. Protection from Evil and Good is circumstantial, but could see some use. The pact information section could use some minor corrections.

By itself Aoskar is very much utility-based, but with so little for combat that it wouldn't be very good as a first choice.


Dahlver-Nar:

Power- 4
Ease of Understanding- 9
Only One Bound- 5

Foul Breath is good, no changes needed. Natural Armor is quite useful to Binders with their low AC, but becomes useless for a Sealed Fate Binder at third level. Share Harm is an ability not likely to see much use, especially because Dahlver-Nar boosts AC. It might see some use if the attacker already has advantage, but otherwise, it isn't useful enough to see use. Maddening Moan is good and will see use. Overall, this vestige makes the Binder feel like a watered-down warlock with no choices for spells, which is why its power isn't great. The pact information could use some corrections to clean it up a bit, but formatting is great other than that.


Naberius:

Power- 4
Ease of Understanding- 10
Only One Bound- 2

Bonus Proficiency and Leverage could be useful, but depend on the player's ability to make use of them. Naberius's Snarl is fine. Noble Bloodhound is a cool ribbon, potentially useful, but most likely flavor more than anything else. Disguise Self and Persuasive Words are what keep this vestige from being near-useless because used in combination, they allow the player to talk their way into most places. If Naberius is the only vestige bound, combat ability is almost nothing, which means that it is hard to defend oneself from foes.


Ronove:

Power- 7
Ease of Understanding- 10
Only One Bound- 9

Magic Attacks, Ronove's Fists, and Sprint give a Binder many of the abilities of a monk, while Feather Fall is strictly better than a monk's Slow Fall. Ronove's Endurance may not come up often, but when it does it is amazing. Far Hand is a good ranged attack as well and gets better at higher levels. The only thing this pact lacks is more versatility, but Far Hand does a good job of making up for that.


Shax:

Power- 7
Ease of Understanding- 7
Only One Bound- 8

Aquatic and Word of the Waves do little without watery environments, but are amazing when in water. Bonus Proficiencies and Resistance of Electricity add a little power, but not too much. Spirit of the Storm and Fluidity of Movement give a strong offensive capability to a Binder of Shax. It is a little difficult to understand some of the backstory of Shax in Pact Information, but the statistics are well-written.


I'll take a look at the second level vestiges shortly.

[Scarce]

The Codex is complete. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168922)
(Sans Eurynome, and the entire codex is up for change following additional buildtesting and playtesting. But for now, we're ready to tackle any problems in the class chassis, and migrate to a new post.)



Twisted Fate

With Unnatural Weapon, what reason would a player have to choose Tail over Tentacles? Can I get an example of how an extra hand would be helpful? The way I see it, an extra hand isn't necessary for the actions that it grants.

I envisioned it as more of a utility function that might be more helpful out of combat, or if you need to get creative in combat with item management or something. Is there a better mechanical benefit you can think up, or should I find a different weapon to put in its place?



Eldritch Fate

Anima Mark's ability to affect other an ally with Range: Self spells could have some powerful consequences. Namely, being able to cast Blur, Mirror Image, and Armor of Agathys on the party's bruiser as well as one's self.

I've always really been torn on whether I like this feature. The consequences are powerful, to be sure (and I'm sure they were intended to be), but it's hard for me to tell if this is too powerful because it's tough to imagine how the subclass interacts with the class at this level.



Vestiges
I'll take a look at the second level vestiges shortly.
All fantastic insights on the first level! As you move onto the second, it'll be most helpful if you examine the vestiges with a character build, so we can see how the subclasses interact and synergize with some of the vestiges. It's not possible to analyze all the combinations, but any amount of analysis would be super useful. (We want to be able to catch if, for example, the class has very little utility or power, or too much, at a particular level, when you factor in a subclass.)

[Prince Zahn]

@Scarce: a thousand thank yous and 2,000 XP for completing the vestige codex~! it looks gorgeous!

And as I said I would - Here's another attempt at Eurynome, the sleet storm and an elemental are out, I took a gamble on a slightly more aggressive approach. It is hard to make a vestige of that high a level with a vestige that canonically does not wish to fight :smallconfused: go easy on me, though. :smallredface:
http://dragoonwraith.com/dnd/vestiges/Eurynome.png

EURYNOME
Mother of the Sky and Sea
7th Level Vestige
DC: 20


ANIMAL FRIEND

You can speak with and understand any beast that has a fly or swim speed, and you have advantage on Wisdom and Charisma checks when interacting with beasts.

THE ANSWER IN THE WIND

You can cast Commune with nature once without expending a spell slot. You can not do so again until you finish a long rest.

EURYNOME'S WANDERLUST

You can cast Water Walk at will. In addition, you can cast Wind Walk once without expending a spell slot. Once you cast Wind Walk in this fashion, you can not use it again until you complete a long rest.

GALE WALL
You can call upon the gale windstorms to blow away your enemies. You can cast a Wind Wall with the following alterations:

A creature within the Wind Wall's area takes 5d8 Bludgeoning Damage.
Medium or smaller flying creatures can't pass through the wall.
Medium or smaller creatures that begin their turns in the wall's area or within 15 feet of it must make a Strength saving throw or are pushed back (or pulled) 10 feet away from or towards the wall (Your choice when casting the spell).

You can use this feature twice, you regain any expended uses after you finish a short rest.

TITAN'S WRATH
You can call upon the ruthless force of a thunderstorm to strike upon a single, unfortunate foe. as an action, choose one creature you can see within 60 feet, that creature takes 4d6 Bludgeoning Damage and 4d6 Cold Damage if he fails a Dexterity Saving Throw, or half as much on a successful save. the creature must succeed on another Dexterity save on the beginning of it's next turn or take 5d6 Electricity Damage and 4d6 Thunder Damage, or half as much on a successful save.
Once you have used this feature, you can not do so again until you complete a long rest.

[Prince Zahn]

@twelve thank you for the fantastic in-depth insight of the 1st level vestiges! when put under the microscope it is certainly an interesting point that a binder with first level vestiges will likely bind only the combat-focused vestiges, as well as 1-2 others depending on the adventure's context, but I contend that vestiges rated 4 for power needn't be rated merely for what they could do in combat. If I could suggest an improvement on your rating system for comparing a given vestige to it's given level it would look a little more like this:


Combat prowess: A
Social aptitude: B
Exploration potential: C
Ease of Understanding: X
Only one bound: Y

*the different letters representing numeric variables/ranking, determined as appropriate.

this way we could evaluate a vestige's power using a more similar model of criteria that 5th edition evaluates itself. we could also compile such a review/analysis of the vestiges and link it in/with/alongside the codex, it's like part of a "5e Binder Guide" :smallsmile:

On to subclasses!
@Twisted: there are countless reasons for a person to wish he had another appendage at his disposal, it is really a matter of creativity. the tail is a utility for anyone who wishes he had more than 2 hands to work with. I feel we might need to work on properly doing justice to what it means to have an extra, reliable appendage. we might also decide a tail wouldn't deal damage but make it capable of aiding checks, wielding a weapon(?) and/or other such item. . . food for thought.

@Eldritch: I'd imagine a big part of this issue could be remedied if we had better control over what spells an Eldritch Fate Binder had access to. also - figure out how this feature should interacts with Concentration, if at all, so it'll be a much less risky feature.

------------------------
@VestigeCards: I the terms at the start were a smart move, they are great for separating where an ability ends and a new one starts. I think the best thing we could do to find colors that make the cards feel a little more ancient, or give them a more mystic feel or more occult. Don't lose sleep over it, of course, see if we can somehow make the cards match the theme we aim for with the binder.:smallsmile:

[Twelvetrees]

Thanks for the scale, Zahn. I'll go back over the first level vestiges with it briefly when I take a look at second level vestiges.

I'll also try to include some builds, Scarce, but it might take me a little while longer to get those up.

[Scarce]

I'll also try to include some builds, Scarce, but it might take me a little while longer to get those up.
You need not include any builds. I just implore you to use an actual binder character sheet when you review the vestiges, because we need perspectives which are looking at the class as a functioning whole. I don't need to know if Malphas is good compared to Haagenti, for example. I need t know if Malphas makes the binder better than the rogue of this level, or whether there exists an undiscovered synergy with Malphas and another vestige which breaks the game. Those types of things are really dangerous to the class functioning well right now.

Zahn, I'll look at Eurynome in depth tomorrow (though if it's pretty good, as I think it probably is, I'll probably just make the necessary edits and put it up on the codex.)

For now, here's a glimpse as to what the final vestige cards will probably look like:

http://s9.postimg.org/i0cx3n9cb/Card_Test.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/i0cx3n9cb/)

Notes: added texture in addition to shading. Different font choices. New level circle.
I'm happy with the color scheme.

[Submortimer]

Sorry for not getting to this before, but I wanted to clarify the Eldritch fate spellcasting issue:

- the EF pulls his spells from the Sorcerer list. We can change this to the Warlock list, if you like.

- the Bonus spells are learned upon binding to a vestige, you learn one per vestige, and that knowledge vanishes upon unbinding from that vestige. Those spells may come from the Wizard, Sorcerer, warlock, or bard lists.

[Prince Zahn]

You need not include any builds. I just implore you to use an actual binder character sheet when you review the vestiges, because we need perspectives which are looking at the class as a functioning whole. I don't need to know if Malphas is good compared to Haagenti, for example. I need t know if Malphas makes the binder better than the rogue of this level, or whether there exists an undiscovered synergy with Malphas and another vestige which breaks the game. Those types of things are really dangerous to the class functioning well right now. +1, making sure that the class functions on par with the PHB Classes on it's own and compared to other builds is of greater priority. Potential will surface as we experiment more, but that would be best to think about after the whole class is complete.


Zahn, I'll look at Eurynome in depth tomorrow (though if it's pretty good, as I think it probably is, I'll probably just make the necessary edits and put it up on the codex.)awesome! Fingers crossed that I didn't do too badly, I did a some number crunching and 17d6 should be equivalent to 11d10 which is what a 7th level spell should be worth if you target a single creature. I was unsure about making the 15 feet of the wall difficult terrain, what do you think?


For now, here's a glimpse as to what the final vestige cards will probably look like:

*snip*

Notes: added texture in addition to shading. Different font choices. New level circle.
I'm happy with the color scheme.that does look much cooler! It Feels both dated and fresh :smallbiggrin: as usual you do an amazing job :smallsmile:

P.S. Looking at Amon's card makes me wonder just how many fire spells a binder gets access to that rerolling would be desirable. It does make combos with sor/war/wiz sound like a plausible move.

[Prince Zahn]

Sorry for not getting to this before, but I wanted to clarify the Eldritch fate spellcasting issue:

- the EF pulls his spells from the Sorcerer list. We can change this to the Warlock list, if you like.

- the Bonus spells are learned upon binding to a vestige, you learn one per vestige, and that knowledge vanishes upon unbinding from that vestige. Those spells may come from the Wizard, Sorcerer, warlock, or bard lists. It's really a strange way of doing things:smallconfused: :
you have warlock spell progression with a sorcerer's spell list as well as learning bonus spells(?) depending how many vestiges you have bound which could be any from any of these 4 class spell lists. . . I think it could be a lot easier if we made up our minds on one Spellcasting model and stick to it. Or go with the EK/AT model (max 4th level spells, Wizard Spell list, limit most of the spell selection with Evocation and Conjugation spells , or maybe transmutation instead). Simple, intuitive, abusability is sanctioned.

I would also drop the bonus spells. I'm sure we can find a creative way to bolster the EF without tweaking the Vancian system, let alone for a subclass.

[Wyntonian]

My responses and thoughts on the level 6 vestiges


I like how this vestige stepped away from the rogue-like ability archetype that it sort of invites and did something new. The use of advantage and disadvantage is solid, and makes the most of the tools 5e has given us. I think it's generically quite strong (though I have little experience playing at this level, I could be wrong) especially given how universally applicable Interception is. It seems useful as a sort of denial vestige, focused on shutting down opponents rather than multiplying ones own strengths. We should be careful with this sort of power as it's largely invisible (consider how the mechanically best way to play a wizard is the GOD style where you just buff and limit enemy options) Interception is a prime example of this, as it makes literally any enemy action less effective. Blindsense makes invisible enemies less effective, as does Catch in the Act with how it counteracts ambushes and enemy rogue-likes. Tasha's Hideous Laughter is really decent, especially with an ability that makes enemies reroll saves. I think given how strong the CC is it might be better as once/short rest, but on the other hand this is a 6th level vestige so it might be appropriate. I also think it and Otto's Irresistable Dance are appropriate and fit the theme of denying enemies their effectiveness that the rest of the vestige has.

On a related note, can someone tell me why Tasha's is a 1st level spell and Otto's is a 6th? Tasha's seems almost better considering how it incapacitates until they save, but Otto's makes you choose between still attacking and saving out of it. The only advantage I can see that Otto's has is advantage on attacks against the target and their disadvantage on dex saves.

On second thought, moving isn't an action so I think Tasha's might let targets move away? That could be the reason Otto's is five levels higher.


My first impression is that I like this vestige as a sort of ethereal hunting monster type. It feels very cohesive and thematic.
Monstrous Bite and Monstrous Reach together create a very uncomfortable mental image, which I think is perfect for this. Bite deals damage equal to a monk's unarmed strike at this level, which feels very appropriate.
Ghost Touch is strong, and does a fairly common Binder thing of removing specific enemy's strengths for the Binder only. In order to make it a slightly better team player, consider something to the effect of "After striking an incorporeal enemy with an unarmed attack, spells and attack effect it as if it were of the material plane until the end of your next turn". This lets you indirectly buff your allies and let them play Dungeons and Dragons instead of just making you uniquely qualified to deal with ethereal threats. It also adds more levers and risk-reward choices. Do you try to get in melee range and land a hit to give your allies a chance to blast the ghost or whatever or not?
Soulsense is fine, but I'd consider allowing it against undead because I suspect a great number of incorporeal enemies will be undead.
Ethereal Jaunt is also good, as either a get-out-of-jail-free card or a dive-the-backline sort of engagement tool to use against squishy threats. It's strong, as mobility isn't as common as it was in 3.5, but I'm fond of it. It seems fun to use, just at a glance.
Overall I like Chupoclops. It fits its theme fairly well, has linked abilities that don't run the risk of exponential/multiplicative stacking. My first concern was its synergy with Ronrove, but her bonuses to Unarmed Strike damage don't apply as it brings the d8 bite all the way up to a d8 :smalltongue: I say good work, with a few minor considerations.



Devil's Sight seems like a bit of a ribbon that, at this level, is kind of irrelevant. I like the possibilities it opens up with creative use of darkness, and how it makes you immune to magical darkness, but overall no complaints. Good ribbon, not useless, A+.0
Acidic Gaze is also fair, I think. It works out to 18 damage on average, and is resisted by a fairly good save for most monsters. Eldritch Blast, to compare, deals like 15.5 damage on average this level, is resisted by AC and can hit multiple targets and have various rider effects. Overall I think this is fairly reasonable, and I think the scaling damage is a good idea.
Swift Flight is the one I have my reservations about. I'm mostly worried about its synergy with other effects, like Otiax's Fog Cloud (fly up, fog cloud, landbound enemies can't see you or move throuth the fog to find you, you can see them and rain down hell, etc). I would feel a little better were it not a bonus action, to make those powerful combos a little harder to get online and happen at the cost of a round of attacks or spells. Having it be a bonus action could come later, maybe at 16th level or so.
Terrifying Glare is fine, I'm just wondering about the wording. It refers to a creature you can see, but I think the creature ought to be able to see you as well, sort of like a Medusa's gaze attack. Otherwise you could be completely stealthed and make some poor sod freak out for no reason, and that seems a little thematically inappropriate.
Eyebite is thematically fine, versatile and appropriate for the level, I think. Good pick, for 1/day.



Durable Form is fairly reasonable, and I think every group will agree that when your hit point maximum goes up your current HP does as well. I think it's also necessary in order to make a build focused on grappling work.
This is just the level of new senses, isn't it? Serpent's Senses is like a worse version of Andromalius and Chupoclop's abilities. Not a bad thing, but they both have a huge variety of useful tools and this vestige seems more focused. If that's the case, then it should be somewhat better at its Thing.
Serpent's Bane is fine, my first thought was of a party convincing their DM that snakes were dragonlike somehow but that's kind of silly anyway.
Serpent's Grasp seems like a natural synergy with Ronrove, bringing that d4 up to a d8. Gaining Advantage against grappled foes makes me wonder if any vestiges give sneak attack, as that seems like the obvious abuse there. I assume the advantage of pinning is just to make it easier for your allies to beat the hell out of whoever you're pinning? The constrict damage seems reasonable, I think, as long as we remember it can happen in the same round as an attack with advantage.
Serpent's Terror gives a level 3 spell 1/short, which I'm fine with. Thematically appropriate.
Overall I think Zagan might be a little on the weak side compared to his peers of this level but I'd need to see how his grappling damage works in actual combat. It could be he's wildly overpowered in that regard.

[Scarce]

My responses and thoughts on the level 6 vestiges
Those are some really well thought-out observations on the vestiges. I'd respond to each point you made, but suffice it to say I would be mostly agreeing with you. I'll be incorporating a lot of these suggestions straight away. Thanks!



I would also drop the bonus spells. I'm sure we can find a creative way to bolster the EF without tweaking the Vancian system, let alone for a subclass.
I'm with Zahn here. I like the Eldritch Fate a lot, especially how it balances warlock-like spellcasting on a subclass power level, but I think that allowing a player to choose spells every day from among 4 different spell lists gives them a little too much flexibility in their choice. More than that, it makes deciding on spells known every day a bit of a hassle, providing a formidable number of spells to review before selecting your spells for the day.

My suggestion: limit the bonus spells to the sorcerer spell list. This keeps a lot of the flexibility of the feature, but limits the class to a more blasty focus, and makes the job of selecting spells every day much easier.

[Submortimer]

We can remove the extra known spells entirely, I'm not sure the EF really needs them. He has other was of pulling off the "Vestiges teach me spells from the ether" trick that don't make him feel bloated.

[Scarce]

It took me a little longer to finish this iteration of Eurynome than I thought it would. I was happy with all but the last two features of the most recent version Zahn whipped up (I wasn't in love with Gale Wall mechanically, because it allowed for godlike arena control, and Titan's Wrath thematically, because it didn't feel like it fit the druid thing.) Here's my newest take:

Beastfriend
You can cast the spells speak with animals, locate animals or plants, and beast sense as rituals, and can cast animal friendship without expending spell slots or spell components.

Answer in the Wind
You can cast the spell commune with nature without expending a spell slot. After casting this spell, you must take a short or long rest before casting it again.

Eurynome's Wanderlust
You can cast the spell water walk without expending a spell slot or spell components. In addition, you can cast the spell wind walk once without expending a spell slot. Once you cast wind walk in this fashion, you cannot cast it again until you complete a long rest.

Beastform
You can cast the spell barkskin (targeting self only) without expending a spell slot or spell components. In addition, you can cast the spell polymorph (targeting self only) once without expending a spell slot. Once you cast polymorph in this fashion, you cannot cast it again until you complete a long rest.

Whirlwind
You can cast the spell whirlwind without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you must take a long rest before casting it again.

[Scarce]

Gentlemen, it's been a little busy for me over the holidays, but I've got you a belated Christmas present:

Vestige Cards! (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_73NA7vK-0OWW43MjlsbE10Mzg/view?usp=sharing)

As previously mentioned, these should be able to fit in normal card sleeves. They're technically finished, but I can't shake the feeling that they're a little sloppy. (Partially, that's due to having to condense the vestiges down so much, and partially its due to knocking it out over a bunch of sittings. Please read over these if you're playtesting the class. I could use the feedback.)

In other exciting news, I might get to playtest the early levels of the binder in a proper campaign soon! I'll keep everyone posted.

[Prince Zahn]

I don't know, Scarce. I'm really liking the cards:smallsmile: they are a fantastic seasonal gift, thank you! I wish I had something for you guys :smallredface:

In terms of aesthetics, (not trying to look the gift horse in the mouth) I think that the thing you're looking for is some small detail that would better capture the feel that these cards are occult - forbidden, mysterioustic, or just say binder . Looking at what you might do, one thing that comes to mind if you had a lot of spare time, would be to have the vestige' in question's seal sort of like a watermark on the card. If I had the money, I would get commissioned art to go on the other side.

That is fantastic news! I look forward to your playtest reports! If I don't get another chance to say it, A happy new year to everybody!

EDIT: I forgot to mention : what source is Whirlwind from? If we use material that isn't PHB, I would appreciate it that we included mention to it's source and the relevant chapter. Thank you.

[Scarce]

EDIT: I forgot to mention : what source is Whirlwind from? If we use material that isn't PHB, I would appreciate it that we included mention to it's source and the relevant chapter. Thank you.
It's from the Elemental Evil stuff, same as the gust cantrip. If you want to go all PHB, I can switch out Eurynome's whirlwind for fire storm and Shax's gust cantrip for chill touch. I think that's the only non-PHB material that shows up in the vestiges.

[Prince Zahn]

It's from the Elemental Evil stuff, same as the gust cantrip. If you want to go all PHB, I can switch out Eurynome's whirlwind for fire storm and Shax's gust cantrip for chill touch. I think that's the only non-PHB material that shows up in the vestiges.

No, you don't understand, I have no issue at all with borrowing from non- PHB material (assuming it's official and not experimental like UA) , I just want it to be mentioned when a feature is from non-core, and where someone could find it. Both because it helps people find them and because some 5e games don't use everything.
If a vestige's spell was from SCAG, for instance, I would rather it was mentioned in the vestige description that it is found in the sword coast adventurer's guide, under the chapter with all the player options (whatever it's name is)

[Scarce]

No, you don't understand, I have no issue at all with borrowing from non- PHB material (assuming it's official and not experimental like UA) , I just want it to be mentioned when a feature is from non-core, and where someone could find it. Both because it helps people find them and because some 5e games don't use everything.
If a vestige's spell was from SCAG, for instance, I would rather it was mentioned in the vestige description that it is found in the sword coast adventurer's guide, under the chapter with all the player options (whatever it's name is)
I could do that in the Codex, but I don't think sources are necessary on the spell cards. Honestly, I've of two minds on using non-PHB material. On one hand, it provides us with more descriptive options for spells, on the other hand, it isn't located in one consolidated location, and excludes players that don't have access to other sources. I'm leaning in the direction of phasing out the non-core spells so the class is playable with just a PHB on hand, but I'd appreciate some thoughts on this.

[Prince Zahn]

I could do that in the Codex, but I don't think sources are necessary on the spell cards. Honestly, I've of two minds on using non-PHB material. On one hand, it provides us with more descriptive options for spells, on the other hand, it isn't located in one consolidated location, and excludes players that don't have access to other sources. I'm leaning in the direction of phasing out the non-core spells so the class is playable with just a PHB on hand, but I'd appreciate some thoughts on this.that would be ideal if we only needed PHB material, however, it's a tough dilemma indeed because these non core spells suit the vestiges quite well IMO. I think we could get away with it given that the content we are using is both available for free and rather minimal. I might suggest a disclaimer in the front of the codex, saying the material uses content from the PHB and the Elemental Evil Player's Companion *link*, I don't think we need to Overthink this. :smallsmile:

[Scarce]

So, what's next? I can start on the PDF, but I think I'd rather see the class chassis get that rewrite first.

[Prince Zahn]

So, what's next? I can start on the PDF, but I think I'd rather see the class chassis get that rewrite first.

I sort of gave it some thought, guys, I think that I did my best to keep the project alive when Anaximander left, and that I got quite a lot done in my own sense and gave the project the best darn job I could. We've already established that much, even when I am not the best at running things or with presentation. Nowadays I'm juggling a busy work life with my commitments to friends and PbPs and running my own adventure, eating properly and, if I can, seek out love, I think that if the whole thread needs Polishing up from the mess I created, I may not be the right person for the job anymore. That's not a bad thing, either. It took me a long time to look back and understand my own role in making the best Binder it can be, I think my potential has somewhat burned out for now, too, since I was way over my head on this (I can feel some of my newer work feeling a little stale, too ).

This isn't goodbye, oh nine hells no :smalltongue: I'm still here, I'll never get sick of the Binder. I'm still going to voice my thoughts and suggestions or give you guys a piece of my mind when something feels off:smalltongue: I just think I'm not cut out for the responsibility I had ad Original Poster , even though I think being the OP to a large scale, hugely successful, legend-in-our-time collaborative project gave me quite the experience in managing a project.

I figured it was as good a time to bring this up, if the content in the Original post is going to need a rework, rewrite and proofreading. Since Scarce already wrote the Codex, it makes sense you'd pick up things from here and rewrite the original post. and ofc I'll match the new link in my signature. You've done so much for this project I can't even begin to list or thank you enough.

I think despite my ego inflating high before getting whipped to it's place, I think I liked my role better when I was being more support and less in charge. It would be better for everyone if I went back to that, I think.
------------------------------
Seriously sappy and sentimental message aside, I think from here we have subclasses to perfect!
In particular to my memory, the Occult Fate and the Twisted Fate need not just a touch up, but balance work, some rewriting, maybe playtesting. The released fate can go on the back burner for now, and needs some serious reworking from the bottom up. The Sealed Fate needs to be settled once and for all on what it means to have a patron vestige, and just how powerful a patron vestige you may have.
Finally, the Eldritch Fate needs some thorough build testing, with special attention when comparing to a full fledged warlock, it is of special concern to me the things you can do with all of these spells and options, and how they interact with vestiges.

[Prince Zahn]

. . .

Okay, I suppose that was a testament to just how out of date and sentimental I got over time:smallredface: I really should work on getting with the times in the future.

What exactly in the chassis needs fixing? I don't recall getting an answer to that and I'm not the brightest barn in the shed. . .

[Scarce]

Okay, I suppose that was a testament to just how out of date and sentimental I got over time:smallredface: I really should work on getting with the times in the future.

What exactly in the chassis needs fixing? I don't recall getting an answer to that and I'm not the brightest barn in the shed. . .
Sorry, I took a bit of a break after wrapping up the vestige stuff.

In a general sense, we need to polish up the post, removing capitalization and grammar errors. This is probably best accomplished by importing it into Word or another word processor with a robust spell and grammar check.

Secondly, we need to take a critical look at all of the features in the chassis. Firstly, do we need all of them? Comparing this class against the wizard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer (the full-casters), the binder has a ton of base class features, which seems unnecessary. After all, the vestiges themselves will provide a lot of features in their own right. Specifically, I notice Adamant Mind, which is hanging out on a level that you get new vestiges, and therefore probably shouldn't have a feature of its own. In fact, by shuffling the Fate features a little, we could vacate all these levels to keep the information dump (and power leap) at those levels to a minimum. Basically, we need to tweak the class table levels.

Lastly, I think the Augmented Pacts need to be revisited. While I'm not entirely sure they're necessary to the class, many of them have individually become redundant outright due to changes in the Fates. I might start working on a total revision to this myself.

[Submortimer]

Zahn got all the base code to me, so in the next day or two I'll get a post up on the boards.

[Scarce]

Zahn got all the base code to me, so in the next day or two I'll get a post up on the boards.
Keep us posted if you have any changes you want to discuss.

[Daddycool123]

Does anyone have a collection of fan-made vestiges?

I've tried searching online, but couldn't find anything useful