Zombie apocolypse "how would you build it?"

[ganondorf50]

Ok I am looking to do a modern game of D&D set in earth in a zombie apocolypse. For the game thinking of just not having wizards, starting them in either a city or town. Now what I am thinking and wondering how would i begin to build this? I mean make the zombies a plague monster by haveing the bites infect people and things but any other ideas?
Another Idea was that clerics would be doctors. Fighters and rangers would still work, guns and stuff like that applicable.

Other ideas zombies attrached to sound, like car alarms stuff like that

[frogglesmash]

If you want zombies to spread like a plague consider using modified wights instead of zombies, they're far better at propagating their species. If you don't want to do that there's Viral death spawn on pg. 51 of D20 Apocalypse (it's from the D20 modern system, but most D20 modern stuff is fully compatible with 3.5 so it shouldn't be an issue), they're basically zombies that aren't called zombies. Other than that the easiest hing to do would be to just homebrew a disease that creates zombies, set the incubation period's duration to something you find appropriate for your campaign, decide on the save DC, and have zombies pass it on via biting.

Edit: if you intend on having massive hordes of zombies you may want to check out the mob template from Cityscape (pg. 124).

2nd Edit: if you want something similar to the Last of Us you could use Yellow Musk Creepers and the Yellow Musk Zombie template (both in Fiend Folio Pg. 190). On a side note I think it would be thematically appropriate to cut out basically all magic from your campaign because it's existence makes your average zombie apocalypse practically impossible. If you want to keep some sort of magic around I'd say psionics makes the most thematic sense.

3rd Edit: I also think that playing E6 would be more appropriate for an apocalypse themed campaign.

[SangoProduction]

Basically what you need to do is homebrew zombies, as modern ones =/= D&D zombies. More over, if you are aiming for a zombie story closer to the zombie survival dramas on tv, you're better off using some other system, as magic, in pretty much every way, trivializes zombies of that nature. Even cantrips. And then there's....Remove Disease....lol
Now, if you want to go for a style like World War Z, then it's passable, but magic still tends to be able to trivialize it. I'd still recommend make Remove Disease not work on the zombies.
For more of a Dead Island type of feel, where there are tons of different types of zombies, then I could very well still see magic users still having difficulty with some (about as much as they would in facing down martial classes...not that that means much after a few levels).

And if you just go full-blown, entirely your own zombies, then what I'd recommend is just take the Monster Manual, and refluff everything as a type of zombie, changing nothing else. Boom. You're done.

[OldTrees1]

I would use Taint(Heroes of Horror)

It depends on the mood you want to set. Given we are using D&D, I expect the PCs to be infected eventually (never being injured is rare in D&D combat). So given the PCs would be inevitable infected, how can I model the infection that makes it feel like an inevitable threat and still give the PCs the ability to resist it for as long as they can? Simple, I will use the Corruption side of Taint to describe the infection. Then all I need to do is count injuries by "Zombies" as dealing 1 Taint(Fort Save DC something reasonable). That gives me the freedom to use Zombies, Tainted Minions, Ghouls, and Wights as different kinds of "Zombies". Also it gives me rules for cures for if the PCs go for that route.

[Bullet06320]

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20011219b
Plague carrier template applied to Zombies

ive seen a plague zombie somewhere, the disease makes them rise as zombies the next day

[SangoProduction]

I would use Taint(Heroes of Horror)

It depends on the mood you want to set. Given we are using D&D, I expect the PCs to be infected eventually (never being injured is rare in D&D combat). So given the PCs would be inevitable infected, how can I model the infection that makes it feel like an inevitable threat and still give the PCs the ability to resist it for as long as they can? Simple, I will use the Corruption side of Taint to describe the infection. Then all I need to do is count injuries by "Zombies" as dealing 1 Taint(Fort Save DC something reasonable). That gives me the freedom to use Zombies, Tainted Minions, Ghouls, and Wights as different kinds of "Zombies". Also it gives me rules for cures for if the PCs go for that route.

Or you could rename "Health Points" to "Hero Points", have it do the same mechanical thing, but represent endurance, fatigue, reflexes, and a bit of luck. Being knocked to 0 Hero Points by a "Zombie" results in Infection, with a chance of getting better.

I say a Fort or Will save (whichever is higher) each day to delay the infection, until they find a way to treat it. I'd say "Remove Disease" when used just before dawn on the character would give +5 to the save. And obviously, for every day that passes, the save gets more difficult. 3 failed saves results in them turning at Dusk.

If you're feeling kind-hearted, you could have a natural 20 either: cure it, reset the penalties for the days that passed, reset the failed saves, or give them bonuses to future saves vs infection.
-10 (or -Con, if that's what you prefer, I prefer that as well) results in irreversible death/turn.

[daremetoidareyo]

D&D is a poor chassis for survival horror outside of levels 1 and 2.


But are you thinking of fast zombies or slow zombies. The difference is important.

Fast zombies are the result of virus/plague/infection. Slow Zombies have a far more supernatural thing about them and their numbers need to be much higher to demonstrate a threat.


Further

Clerics: you should ban em. They can turn undead. Eventually they can bring people back to life. Their spell list is even better than a wizards for this setting.

Druids too.

Bards seem out of place in survival horror.

Warlocks seem like a lame addition to zombie world.

Paladins offer some interesting roleplay opportunity but you might want to alter smite evil to also be ranged.

[Rubik]

As for how to initiate a zombiepocalypse in D&D, I would go with a mage who used a very draining ritual to cast a Fell Drain/Fell Animate Locate City Bomb, Fimbulwinter, or Apocalypse from the Sky. The continent to the South has suddenly been leveled into ruins, and a huge number of zombies and wights have suddenly spawned, only to spread from there. Whoever initiated it has also managed to find ways to create living spells, and s/he's creating FD/FA Cloudkills and such, which are causing problems elsewhere by creating more undead. Now the PCs are on a tight time limit to stop the perpetrator before s/he recovers from the first ritual and performs it again to create a living FD/FA Locate City Bomb, Fimbulwinter, or Apocalypse from the Sky.

[noob]

Or make the zombies be immortal and totally omnipotent wizard of level 17.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Pathfinder has a zombie variant called 'brain-eating zombie', it can infect with a bite attack basically (any creature that has been bitten and dies... though I'm sure you could houserule some sort of limit on that). Ghoul fever, if that's a thing in 3.5, could serve as an example disease.

[Dondasch]

Cast "Animate Infectious Zombie", found in City of Stormreach (toward the end, in one of the sample adventures IIRC). It's in a sidebar. 4th level Sor/Wiz spell, anything that dies while infected becomes a Zombie that can continue spreading the plague.

[Urpriest]

Just curious, which D&D aspects make you want to do this with D&D? Most dedicated Zombie systems are fairly approachable and easy to learn, so if it's just familiarity that's not an especially good reason.

[ganondorf50]

It doesnt have to be D&D either I am looking for something just do a good apocolypse senario. I love D&D but im looking for them to build something similar to the walking dead however they start in the early stages of the infection. I want them to slowly see their would turn upside down, democracy turn into anarchy stuff like that. They would have multiple characters because they will die. I want this to be MASSIVE

Any rpgs like that? I get heros of horror I dont own I do have a pdf of it though

[Mehangel]

I agree that D&D 3.5 is not the best system for a modern-day zombie apocalypse. I would suggest D20 Modern. You can get info on it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) or here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/srdhome.html).

[Brookshw]

D20 modern ideally, incorporating Strahd Zombies from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Introduce a scavenge skill with a random table of what you can find (I think Exodus had something similar but don't quite recall). Inside of the scope of D&D probably e6 cutting out casters completely or selectively trimming their spell lists with a chain saw.

Also house rules for crits/headshots, possibly via an attack penalty to aim for the head with some support feats. Probably some new zombie templates.

[Urpriest]

It doesnt have to be D&D either I am looking for something just do a good apocolypse senario. I love D&D but im looking for them to build something similar to the walking dead however they start in the early stages of the infection. I want them to slowly see their would turn upside down, democracy turn into anarchy stuff like that. They would have multiple characters because they will die. I want this to be MASSIVE

Any rpgs like that? I get heros of horror I dont own I do have a pdf of it though

All Flesh Must Be Eaten is pretty well-regarded, and not hard to learn.

[noob]

I build a Zombie apocolypse by making a zombie bite an apocolypse.

[Sheogoroth]

I've always wanted to do a Zombie Apocalypse that had nothing to do with viral infection.
I'm building a campaign that has diminutive worm creatures that crawl into their victims ears and latch onto their brain stem, controlling their actions and slowly the worm expands, eventually controlling the host like a puppet so that the body is still usable long after it's technical death.

This has the added benefit of not making the zombies strictly alive or undead, such that they are not affected by negative or positive energy.
Give them a natural degree of spell resistance and make them outright immune to certain spells.
Attacking the head of a zombie should be an opposed skill check rather than an AC. Force your players to announce that they are directly attacking the zombies head and track some measure of limb damage for crippling purposes.

Make them howl instead of moan, so dispatching a zombie in any way other than silently is a car alarm.
One thing that could keep your players on edge, is cutting up their character sheets- by that I mean, you have a copy of all of their skills, and you track health totals of all your players. That way, you don't actually let them know how much damage they are taking, but you describe to them the sorts of injuries they are receiving and their severity and how they feel.
Horror is a descriptive process, numbers aren't horrific- they are safe. Take away your players knowledge of the numbers and immerse them in the reality of the situation. Also, roll all of their natural perception checks for them and never let them know if they outright failed move silently or hide- they simply get attacked or they don't.

[PraxisVetli]

Not to derail, if need be I'll start a seperate thread, but how do you guys handle necromancy in zombie campaigns?

[Fouredged Sword]

I did a zombie game once. It wasn't strictly a zombie game exactly, but more undead end of the world game.

E6, vitality points in place of HP, Armor as DR optional rules.

Basically I did the setting 8 years after the end of the world. A wall of undead walked from once side of the world to the other, destroying all cities and wrecking any functioning civilization along the way. A few dwarven holds held out, but human, elven, and orcish civilization was over. The undead crossed the land almost as fast as the messengers who tried to spread word of the oncoming blight. Though armies tried to rally and hold off the hordes, they found themselves soon outnumbered.

The party was a group of orphans who managed to get saved by a group of retired adventurers. This was good, it meant that they had people who could train and aid them in preparing to go forth and find other survivors. Unfortunately, their guardians retired for a reason. A cleric with a wasting illness and low con, a fighter without a leg, a ranger without an arm, and a wizard who can't see past the end of his nose due to nearsightedness. All they could do was train the next generation to go forth and try to fix the world.

As they adventured, (Starting in the ruins of their home city, untouched for a decade) they would discover the cause of the "Dark March". A hole was opened to the plain of shadow and an army of undead spirits able to grant strength and intelligence to otherwise mindless undead was unleashed out of the nightmares of the foolish wizard who opened the hole to begin with.

[Mehangel]

Not to derail, if need be I'll start a seperate thread, but how do you guys handle necromancy in zombie campaigns?

Specifically in zombie campaigns? I have necromancy trigger sanity checks (both by those performing it aswell as those who witness it in action). I often have zombie apocalypse campaigns slowly turn into Cthulhu Horror campaigns.

[smcmike]

I sees lot of "magic trivializes zombies (even cantrips?!)" on this thread, and I'd like a better understanding of why that is. It can't simply be that magic gives you the ability to kill lots of zombies: so do machine guns, and zombie horror still works in the modern context. Is it the ability to fly and/or create spaces safe from incursion? In either case, it seems worth pointing out the zombies often become the backdrop to other conflicts in modern settings, too.

[Saintheart]

I sees lot of "magic trivializes zombies (even cantrips?!)" on this thread, and I'd like a better understanding of why that is. It can't simply be that magic gives you the ability to kill lots of zombies: so do machine guns, and zombie horror still works in the modern context. Is it the ability to fly and/or create spaces safe from incursion? In either case, it seems worth pointing out the zombies often become the backdrop to other conflicts in modern settings, too.

Magic trivialises most challenges in D&D given enough levels. That said, magic trivialises undead in particular because zombies have no magic resistance, have no real reflex saving throws, and are vulnerable to positive energy damage if not turning or destruction. And zombies are pretty much under a permanent slow effect since they can only take either a single move action or a single attack action per round and can't take the Run action.

The reason cantrips can trivialise zombies is because of arcane spells like Disrupt Undead. 1d6 damage to undead, no save, ranged touch attack (even easier since zombies' DEX is nerfed), and while spell resistance applies, zombies don't have any. Alternatively, try Orb of Acid which doesn't even allow spell resistance. A mage on his own can cast this spell, retreat, cast, retreat and the zombie is never going to be able to close. Hide from Undead is a cleric 1 spell. A level 1 cleric, with a 18 or so in CHA, only has to roll 10 or so in order to turn 2HD zombies (which is to say, most of them since they're likely human commoners) and will then roll 2d6+5, thus a minimum score of 7, to thus be able to turn 3 x 2HD zombies within 60 feet. Once the cleric hits level 4, he destroys those same zombies, he doesn't turn them, and he will automatically make his turning check since it's 1d20+CHA with a result of 4 meaning he turns zombies with HD equal to his cleric level minus 2.

Machine guns can kill undead, certainly, but it's not really comparing apples with apples. In D&D, large gangs of very low level opponents do not get dangerous in orthodox tactical D&D even when they outnumber high level opponents by factors of 5 or so; just because a zombie is CR 1/8 does not, in fact, mean that 64 zombies are actually a CR 8 encounter. Hell, an 8th level cleric alone would make the turning check no matter how crap he rolled, and would be able to destroy 2d6+12, i.e. a minimum of 14 HD, i.e.e. 7 of them minimum in the first round. At maximum -- 24 HD -- he could destroy 12 of them in the first round and could keep on pulling the same routine in subsequent rounds until they're all down. Oh, and he can keep from melee range, too, since turning is a standard action and zombies can't move and attack in the same round. As said, that all assumes he hasn't pumped his CHA beyond 18 and isn't using Nightsticks or positive energy spells in the interim -- hell, a spontaneous-heal-casting cleric can pull out a touch attack that has a decent chance of seriously harming or destroying a zombie each round. One character, using nothing but turning checks, which in themselves are seen as roughly the weakest assault on undead you can do.

That, indeed, is why people have tried to come up with "Mob" or "Unit" templates for low-level opponents, simply because relatively mundane magic on even a mid-level party will allow that party to tear new orifices in zombies at range and will raise the party's defences high enough that the zombies will have to fish for 20s in order to hit anybody. Said fishing will also not do enough damage to imperil a party at these levels anyway, because it's melee damage and that's really all the zombie's got. The stereotypical swarming of zombies onto a single target also is unlikely to work given how grapple works and the fact the zombies can only take one action per round.

[Fouredged Sword]

One way to make groups of low level undead more dangerous is to look up the rules for undead hive minds that popped up in one of the books. I can't remember what book it was, but the rules made larger numbers of undead much more dangerous.

[Trasilor]

Article why zombie apocalypse wouldn't work... (http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly_p2.html)

Tried running a mini-apocalypse in my game. PCs just went where zombies couldn't - rooftops. And shot them up like fish in a barrel.

No magic, no real danger. Just lots and lots of arrows and alchemist fire. :smallamused:

I imagine in a d20 modern system, with modern weapons, it would be even easier.

Without intelligence, zombies are relatively easy to kill.

[Mehangel]

Article why zombie apocalypse wouldn't work... (http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly_p2.html)

Tried running a mini-apocalypse in my game. PCs just went where zombies couldn't - rooftops. And shot them up like fish in a barrel.

No magic, no real danger. Just lots and lots of arrows and alchemist fire. :smallamused:

I imagine in a d20 modern system, with modern weapons, it would be even easier.

Without intelligence, zombies are relatively easy to kill.

Just wanted to point out a couple things:

o 1st, in a zombie apocalypse you dont just have to worry about zombies you also have other humans to worry about.
o 2nd, eventually you will run out of food, water or ammunition in a d20 modern campaign (since you will have no bags of holding to carry massive amounts of stuff)
o 3rd, just because it is called a zombie apocalypse, doesnt mean that it has to be just zombies. Include some intelligent undead such as ghouls.
o 4th, in a d20 modern apocalypse setting, you usually use scavenging rules. This means that you only barely might come up with what you need to survive, if that.
o 5th, if PC's place themselves on rooftops, but in zombie birds or bats to worry about. Or just starve them out. No-where is safe.

[smcmike]

So, what I'm reading (mostly) is zombies aren't a problem because the PCs can kill them efficiently with magic.

This doesn't change much. Zombies are usually pretty simple to kill. The ability to take ONE zombie out with a cantrip is essentially meaningless. By that logic baseball bats trivialize zombies as well. Turning and area of affect damage change the equation much more significantly, but only in that it requires far more zombies to drain the party's resources. Hide from undead is a great spell for a zombie apocalypse scenario, but the spell has to end sometime, and not touching the undead when they have filled the streets is not trivial. As far as shooting from rooftops goes, that's a traditional genre reaction, generally resulting in the depletion of ammo and/or smashed windows and zombies on the stairs.

The bigger issue is the party's defenses. It's true that D&D allows characters to simply wade through low-level chumps. I've always thought that was a flaw, but one with possible fixes.

Also, I'm talking about a low level campaign.

[noob]

I am pretty sure that someone with a +1 returning throwing axe can mow down zombies for as long as you want.
With a huge sling(only -2 per bonus size category in pf and something like -4 per bonus size category in dnd 3.5), some strength and a lot of stones(they are free and so you can craft as many as you want without materials according to the crafting rules you need 0 second to create a stone) you can kill as many zombies as you want(you just need something like 2 or 3 rounds per zombie).
If everybody able to use a slingshot starts killing zombies from high places the zombie apocalypse could never have happened in the first place.
Also in PF cantrips are limitless.
And also they were rules for improvising any item as a thrown weapon efficient in function of its mass(it increased extremely fast) and so you can kill zombies just by throwing heavy stuff on them and mostly you will never lack heavy stuff(with crafting rules you can create them from nothing instantly)

[smcmike]

I am pretty sure that someone with a +1 returning throwing axe can mow down zombies for as long as you want.
With a huge sling(only -2 per bonus size category in pf and something like -4 per bonus size category in dnd 3.5), some strength and a lot of stones(they are free and so you can craft as many as you want without materials according to the crafting rules you need 0 second to create a stone) you can kill as many zombies as you want(you just need something like 2 or 3 rounds per zombie).
If everybody able to use a slingshot starts killing zombies from high places the zombie apocalypse could never have happened in the first place.
Also in PF cantrips are limitless.
And also they were rules for improvising any item as a thrown weapon efficient in function of its mass(it increased extremely fast) and so you can kill zombies just by throwing heavy stuff on them and mostly you will never lack heavy stuff(with crafting rules you can create them from nothing instantly)

This sounds like a tremendous abuse of crafting rules to me. You really play that way, where you can just create "heavy stuff" from nothing with a skill in zero seconds?

Also, this isn't about whether a zombie apocalypse is realistic in a larger world governed by D&D rules and populated by folks who know exactly what to do when it starts. It's about whether a zombie apocalypse could present interesting challenges to a party of pcs as part of a campaign.

[noob]

Then there is still the warlock problem: unlimited blasts who probably hit the zombies and are ranged and are not effected by DR a lvl1 warlock can probably on average kill a zombie every 4 turns and so every four minutes he kills 10 zombies and so every hour he kills 150 zombies and in one workday(if he is relaxed and only works 8 hours per day) he kills 1200 zombies and so in most of the small hammeau he kills all the inhabitants in one day!
In addition a warlock in a zombie apocalypse will search for another warlock and once there is two they can sleep asynchronously and defend each other also if they are motivated they can work 16 hours each and so kill a total of 4800 and so clear lots of things(the biggest things who are not metropolises have at most 25000 inhabitants so in 6 days they are totally cleaned)
And I will not even speak of how much crazily efficient are higher level warlocks.

[Mehangel]

Then there is still the warlock problem: unlimited blasts who probably hit the zombies and are ranged and are not effected by DR a lvl1 warlock can probably on average kill a zombie every 4 turns and so every four minutes he kills 10 zombies and so every hour he kills 150 zombies and in one workday(if he is relaxed and only works 8 hours per day) he kills 1200 zombies and so in most of the small hammeau he kills all the inhabitants in one day!
In addition a warlock in a zombie apocalypse will search for another warlock and once there is two they can sleep asynchronously and defend each other also if they are motivated they can work 16 hours each and so kill a total of 4800 and so clear lots of things(the biggest things who are not metropolises have at most 25000 inhabitants so in 6 days they are totally cleaned)
And I will not even speak of how much crazily efficient are higher level warlocks.

Again, this is why it is suggested that zombie apocalypses are run with d20 Modern rules.
o No Returning weapons; Hell you might be lucky to even find a single +1 weapon, if that at higher levels.
o Limited Spellcasting; by limited I mean, no-one has even level 0 spells till what, 4th level? (and that is only if you spec specifically for that.

Ways to fix the whole I am efficient shtick.

o Make it so that zombies will never die from damage, they only become staggered if they reach 0 hp, unless you called shot head after bringing them to staggered.
o Include intelligent, fast, strong, tough, and flying zombies.
o Have other groups of human survivors break-into whatever fortification the PC's are staying at (without bothering to refortify after breaking in) and attack the PC's to restock their own stuff.

[Saintheart]

This sounds like a tremendous abuse of crafting rules to me. You really play that way, where you can just create "heavy stuff" from nothing with a skill in zero seconds?

Also, this isn't about whether a zombie apocalypse is realistic in a larger world governed by D&D rules and populated by folks who know exactly what to do when it starts. It's about whether a zombie apocalypse could present interesting challenges to a party of pcs as part of a campaign.

As already said further up the thread: around level 1 or 2, probably. From levels 4 onward, much less so. From about level 8, a zombie horde is pretty much just a speedbump, and once fifth level magic or indeed the moment a Teleport spell comes online, that's pretty much the end of the zombie campaign. And for certain classes like the Warlock, you don't even need to get that far. Your original query was along the lines of "I can't believe magic outright trivialises zombies as challenges" and you were wondering how cantrips can trivialise challenges. These are some of the ways it's done.

The problem with zombies is that they're just trundling lumps of hitpoints -- hitpoints that are not hard to take off them with touch attack options. Their attack bonuses against even a fifth level party are low enough to basically make it a game of "fish for 20s". And the story of a zombie against magic can be narrated as: "lol that spell needs a Fort save or affects my mind, it can't hurt me or my buddies because we haven't got either, oh crud you cast a spell that hits the Reflex save, I guess I'll just walk 6 squares towards you and do nothing else while you walk away 6 squares from me and cast another Reflex save spell, oh crud I'm dead for real this time."

Low-level opponents can be challenging (see Tucker's Kobolds) if your party has little system mastery and you set up the environment to one-sidedly favour the low-level opponents (again, see Tucker's Kobolds), but it's a lot harder than it first appears. Indeed Tuckers' Kobolds are pretty much the opposite of a zombie horde: they're monsters playing smart and playing to their advantages, while zombies by definition have no brains and in some incarnations announce verbally their desires to get some.

EDIT: Indeed one mage with the Fiery Burst reserve feat and one [fire] descriptor spell left in his spell slots can hold off the zombie plague forever in the same way a Warlock can.

[smcmike]

Then there is still the warlock problem: unlimited blasts who probably hit the zombies and are ranged and are not effected by DR a lvl1 warlock can probably on average kill a zombie every 4 turns and so every four minutes he kills 10 zombies and so every hour he kills 150 zombies and in one workday(if he is relaxed and only works 8 hours per day) he kills 1200 zombies and so in most of the small hammeau he kills all the inhabitants in one day!.

Ok, you are right. If your DM gives you and your warlock buddy an endless supply of zombies and a secure place to zap them from at your leisure, that doesn't sound like a very interesting challenge.

[noob]

If you can find that item who created disks of force and cost 500 po all your problems are solved as a warlock unless zombies fly.
Also if you carry a cube of steel your problems are solved(I remember having through to carry permanently an empty cube of steel for climbing on it and have height advantages and also having less problems with environmental obstacles against zombies it really works well because they can not climb and if they push it will not fall because it is pretty huge and also if they hit they will have an hard time destroying the steel and while they are trying to destroy the cube you can shoot at them then when they fully crowd the surroundings you can end of movement on an occupied square teleport out of the crowd and then run away and start blasting again at zombies)

[smcmike]

I'm not sure what those things are. I can say that although I've been somewhat argumentative, I agree with some points;

Mid to high level adventurers will not be seriously challenged by zombies without some serious manipulation of the circumstances.

High AC is a big problem for using zombies as a threat.

"Here's some zombies" is not a good plot in its own, and will provide no challenge to a warlock that can fly.

[noob]

Well all those things I spoke off are level 1 stuff.
And the end of movement on an occupied square teleport is not magic it is just something you can see in the manual of players in the list of rules about fighting there is a rule that if you end your movement in an occupied square you are instantly put at the nearest non occupied square.

[Mehangel]

Well all those things I spoke off are level 1 stuff.
And the end of movement on an occupied square teleport is not magic it is just something you can see in the manual of players in the list of rules about fighting there is a rule that if you end your movement in an occupied square you are instantly put at the nearest non occupied square.

I would hardly say that relying upon an item costing 50% of the Wealth of a level 1 character as "level 1 stuff"

As for movement and occupied squares, there are several creatures that can end its movement in an occupied square. Hell, if you think about it, if you are mounting a creature you are always occupying the same creature. So if any player tried to pull that bull to teleport, I would not allow it.

As for the Steel block and zombies climbing, I dont see anything that says that zombies cannot climb or jump. I also don't see where a level 1 character would've obtained a steel block, especially in a zombie apocalypse.

[smcmike]

Well all those things I spoke off are level 1 stuff.
And the end of movement on an occupied square teleport is not magic it is just something you can see in the manual of players in the list of rules about fighting there is a rule that if you end your movement in an occupied square you are instantly put at the nearest non occupied square.

That's a pretty silly way to interpret the rules. The SRD says "you can't move through a square occupied by an opponent." You don't get a free teleport for being surrounded. Assuming you use tumble, if the crowd is particularly deep you're probably just going to get "teleported" back to where you came from. And that's not even mentioning the possibility that concentrated zombies act as a mob and simply year you limb from limb.

[noob]

You can not move in it but you can fall in it from the top of your empty steel cube.(The steel cube is easy to build and since it is empty it is easy to carry also it is rather slippery(it is hard to climb a smooth cube of steel) and extremely useful for the height advantage I do not see the reason why it is not in the manuals while it is one very cool item for a barbarian)

[frogglesmash]

I'm surprised nobody has brought it up, but magic will trivialize in ways beyond just killing abilities. More specifically magic removes all survival elements from the setting. Need a shelter? Rope Trick, wall spells, Stone Shape. Need supplies? One of various conjuration or creation spells, or you could just summon some creatures to find supplies for you. Need Food? See previous. Need transportation? Flight, Teleportation, Polymorph etc. Need to find the nearest settlement? We've got scrying spells for that. And if that wasn't enough you could just make an army of Ice Assassin Aleaxes to deal with all your problems.

[smcmike]

I'm surprised nobody has brought it up, but magic will trivialize in ways beyond just killing abilities. More specifically magic removes all survival elements from the setting. Need a shelter? Rope Trick, wall spells, Stone Shape. Need supplies? One of various conjuration or creation spells, or you could just summon some creatures to find supplies for you. Need Food? See previous. Need transportation? Flight, Teleportation, Polymorph etc. Need to find the nearest settlement? We've got scrying spells for that. And if that wasn't enough you could just make an army of Ice Assassin Aleaxes to deal with all your problems.

This is a far more significant problem with survival horror in D&D. Access to extradimensional safe rooms and unlimited magical food is huge. At low level, though, these don't all come into play.

I still don't know what this steel cube idea is. Where does it come from? I assume this a magic object you can shrink to carry around? how big of a cube are we talking here?

[Fouredged Sword]

I'm surprised nobody has brought it up, but magic will trivialize in ways beyond just killing abilities. More specifically magic removes all survival elements from the setting. Need a shelter? Rope Trick, wall spells, Stone Shape. Need supplies? One of various conjuration or creation spells, or you could just summon some creatures to find supplies for you. Need Food? See previous. Need transportation? Flight, Teleportation, Polymorph etc. Need to find the nearest settlement? We've got scrying spells for that. And if that wasn't enough you could just make an army of Ice Assassin Aleaxes to deal with all your problems.

Well, at some point the plot moves away from wandering around fighting zombies to dealing with the undead moon aborted godfetus that is coming to commit omnicide.

[frogglesmash]

Well, at some point the plot moves away from wandering around fighting zombies to dealing with the undead moon aborted godfetus that is coming to commit omnicide.

But at that point you've pretty solidly reentered the standard d&d setting.

[SangoProduction]

So, what I'm reading (mostly) is zombies aren't a problem because the PCs can kill them efficiently with magic.

This doesn't change much. Zombies are usually pretty simple to kill. The ability to take ONE zombie out with a cantrip is essentially meaningless. By that logic baseball bats trivialize zombies as well. Turning and area of affect damage change the equation much more significantly, but only in that it requires far more zombies to drain the party's resources. Hide from undead is a great spell for a zombie apocalypse scenario, but the spell has to end sometime, and not touching the undead when they have filled the streets is not trivial. As far as shooting from rooftops goes, that's a traditional genre reaction, generally resulting in the depletion of ammo and/or smashed windows and zombies on the stairs.

The bigger issue is the party's defenses. It's true that D&D allows characters to simply wade through low-level chumps. I've always thought that was a flaw, but one with possible fixes.

Also, I'm talking about a low level campaign.

no no no. Evocation is far from the way to trivialize things, although Lights are pretty darned useful (not only to see things, but for drawing the attention of zombies away).
Take illusions for example. Most are just straight up illusions, and don't affect the mind at all. So, you put down a "wall" it thinks there is a wall, because undead don't have the intelligence to disbelieve.
Ghost Sound (a cantrip) can be used up to 25+5/2 levels away from you. If they've not spotted you, they will go to that area. And if the spell caster is feeling cheeky, he would cast a fireball and destroy masses of undead instantly. So it's kinda hard to imagine the zombie apocalypse would get far, unless you had very limited magic.
Protection from Evil gives bonuses to AC and Saves vs zombies at level 1.
Hold Portal: keeps a door/window closed. level 1
Mount: Creates a riding horse for 2 hours/level. Ride off into the sun set and not worry about the zombies, as they couldn't touch you.
Locate City / Locate Water, both first level. You'd know where to avoid, and where your next drink will be.
Floating Disk, 1 hour/level, carries 100 lbs/level. Well, no real need to travel lightly. Scavenging becomes a breeze when you don't have to worry about weight.
Instant Diversion: 1 copy of you + 1 per 4 levels. Illusion. Not Mind Affecting.

And so many more. And we haven't mentioned any Cleric Spells...like Create Food and Water.... OK guys, set up on the roof top. We can't be starved out.

[smcmike]

no no no. Evocation is far from the way to trivialize things, although Lights are pretty darned useful (not only to see things, but for drawing the attention of zombies away).
Take illusions for example. Most are just straight up illusions, and don't affect the mind at all. So, you put down a "wall" it thinks there is a wall, because undead don't have the intelligence to disbelieve.
Ghost Sound (a cantrip) can be used up to 25+5/2 levels away from you. If they've not spotted you, they will go to that area. And if the spell caster is feeling cheeky, he would cast a fireball and destroy masses of undead instantly. So it's kinda hard to imagine the zombie apocalypse would get far, unless you had very limited magic.
Protection from Evil gives bonuses to AC and Saves vs zombies at level 1.
Hold Portal: keeps a door/window closed. level 1
Mount: Creates a riding horse for 2 hours/level. Ride off into the sun set and not worry about the zombies, as they couldn't touch you.
Locate City / Locate Water, both first level. You'd know where to avoid, and where your next drink will be.
Floating Disk, 1 hour/level, carries 100 lbs/level. Well, no real need to travel lightly. Scavenging becomes a breeze when you don't have to worry about weight.
Instant Diversion: 1 copy of you + 1 per 4 levels. Illusion. Not Mind Affecting.

And so many more. And we haven't mentioned any Cleric Spells...like Create Food and Water.... OK guys, set up on the roof top. We can't be starved out.

I was just responding to what I was seeing. I agree that all of those are great responses to undead hordes, and particularly that creating food and water overcomes (and, yes, trivializes) one of the classic problems.

But I don't buy the idea that overcoming a problem trivializes it in general. If an illusionist wants to concentrate on keeping up a false wall, that's great. But zombies do have will saves, and they also bump into things. If you want to distract them with ghost sounds or light spells, that's also great. That could save your bacon for sure, in the right situation. It's not fool proof though: once you've been spotted, a distraction is unlikely to work. Fireball - hey, I thought you said evocation wasn't the problem! Hold portal: A magic equivalent of nailing boards to the door. They always come down by the end of the movie. Mount: wow, a horse! Floating disc: wow, a wheelbarrow! Locate city: wow, a map! I am not blown away.

Also, there seem to be two arguments here. One, that the party would be able to handle the zombie apocalypse without difficulty, and two, that such an apocalypse wouldn't happen in the first place. The second argument strikes me as silly, considering that the DM can set the groundwork any way he likes.

[Saintheart]

The DM doesn't have to do a lot of groundwork to start off the Zompocalypse as such - it only requires some variations on the Locate City bomb. Keeping the Zompocalypse going, though, basically requires the DM summarily knock out or outright remove all sources of higher-level arcane magic from the setting and heavily hobble or just wipe out all sources of divine magic. Just saying that in most standard-ish 'magic mart' settings like Faerun or Greyhawk, the very existence of high level casters (or high level monsters like adult dragons, for that matter) more or less guarantees the aversion of the apocalypse within a matter of hours if not days. This is why end of the world scenarios in these worlds are invariably backed by major DM fiat or deity-level sources of Teh Evulz. D&D magic is just too strong an option in most settings to beat just with a bunch of slow-moving corpses intoning "BRAAAAIIINS".

[SangoProduction]

I was just responding to what I was seeing. I agree that all of those are great responses to undead hordes, and particularly that creating food and water overcomes (and, yes, trivializes) one of the classic problems.

But I don't buy the idea that overcoming a problem trivializes it in general. If an illusionist wants to concentrate on keeping up a false wall, that's great. But zombies do have will saves, and they also bump into things. If you want to distract them with ghost sounds or light spells, that's also great. That could save your bacon for sure, in the right situation. It's not fool proof though: once you've been spotted, a distraction is unlikely to work. Fireball - hey, I thought you said evocation wasn't the problem! Hold portal: A magic equivalent of nailing boards to the door. They always come down by the end of the movie. Mount: wow, a horse! Floating disc: wow, a wheelbarrow! Locate city: wow, a map! I am not blown away.

Also, there seem to be two arguments here. One, that the party would be able to handle the zombie apocalypse without difficulty, and two, that such an apocalypse wouldn't happen in the first place. The second argument strikes me as silly, considering that the DM can set the groundwork any way he likes.

You don't have to be a **** about it. I was pointing out the most obviously useful spells a caster could do FROM LEVEL ONE. "Wow a Horse" Yes. A horse that you don't have to feed, house, and may even eat. (It only disappears if it dies.) And yes. I did not list Fireball, I said "If they are feeling cheeky, they can then fireball them." And no, I did not say evocation wasn't a problem, I said it's not how you break a game. Evocation = the reason why most zombie apocalypses just don't make sense in a D&D setting, but it doesn't "trivialize" it, as you could just send more. (Of course, the problems with that solution are already explained.)
"Wow, a map!" You're damned right a map. Good luck getting your map from the middle of a forest, or when you straight up can't find one. And, it's a wheelbarrow with more capacity than you could hope to get from a mundane one, not need to have your hands on it, and can even act as high ground for you, by standing on it.
And between the Sound/Light, and Instant Diversion, you can stay "not caught" by sending the Diversion closer to the zombies, as they chase the closest thing, based on modern zombie serials and games.

And as mentioned, this is from level 1. Level 3 onwards, they can completely shut down zombie apocalypses if they so chose.

[smcmike]

You don't have to be a **** about it. I was pointing out the most obviously useful spells a caster could do FROM LEVEL ONE. "Wow a Horse" Yes. A horse that you don't have to feed, house, and may even eat. (It only disappears if it dies.) And yes. I did not list Fireball, I said "If they are feeling cheeky, they can then fireball them." And no, I did not say evocation wasn't a problem, I said it's not how you break a game. Evocation = the reason why most zombie apocalypses just don't make sense in a D&D setting, but it doesn't "trivialize" it, as you could just send more. (Of course, the problems with that solution are already explained.)
"Wow, a map!" You're damned right a map. Good luck getting your map from the middle of a forest, or when you straight up can't find one. And, it's a wheelbarrow with more capacity than you could hope to get from a mundane one, not need to have your hands on it, and can even act as high ground for you, by standing on it.
And between the Sound/Light, and Instant Diversion, you can stay "not caught" by sending the Diversion closer to the zombies, as they chase the closest thing, based on modern zombie serials and games.

And as mentioned, this is from level 1. Level 3 onwards, they can completely shut down zombie apocalypses if they so chose.

And you don't need to call names. If I was overly sarcastic I apologize. You are right that those are useful spells. They also have mundane corollaries in normal zombie horror, and they only solve specific problems. I think you are engaging in significant hyperbole.

[SangoProduction]

And you don't need to call names. If I was overly sarcastic I apologize. You are right that those are useful spells. They also have mundane corollaries in normal zombie horror, and they only solve specific problems. I think you are engaging in significant hyperbole.

A few of them have mundane corollaries, but none are so easy - so trivial - to make happen, nor are they so effective. Of course, you'd be hard pressed to find a self-replenishing food supply that also carries you around much faster and easier than you could walk in a truly mundane world. Have your fighter do that, and I'd be impressed.
And as mentioned, these are the lowest level spells out there.


Hmm....I feel this has gotten quite off topic. Let us continue this in another thread, if you so choose, but there's no point in taking away from this guy's thread. I apologize for what has been said.

I still stick by my first comment: if you want something like the modern zombie drama, look for another system. If you want just zombies in D&D, do nothing but "reskin" the monsters as zombies. Flying zombies, bouncing zombies, swimming zombies, all because you just said it was a zombie instead of an "eagle", "frog" or "shark".

You, fellow arguer, may not agree. But I say, "May we agree to disagree."

[DMVerdandi]

I think that the problem that everyone is stating stems from the DND zombie being related somewhat to the Classic Romero zombie. Change that, change everything.

The key is to stack templates if not simply just create a new one.

Don't just have hordes and hordes of shambling meat bags, Make them difficult, vary their roles, and truly try and lock down their source.
Are they Biological? Magical?

If it's the first, you can have mutations which are reflected as different templates.

You could have the fast zombie (gets evasion; monk speed;dex to ac, attack and damage, precision damage)
The brute (Regeneration, all unarmed attack feats, bonuses to physical scores,DR/nope)
The leader ( martial and draconic auras)
And the pariah (much more potent infection range and power)

Secondly, if it's biological, you could give them a psionic template similar to phrenic, but more closely aligned with a dragon's spell casting. Instead Per HD, give them levels in a psionic class[individually chosen by the dm]. Also have them cast off of charisma regardless of the class.

Now, you can equip the zombies with psionic powers (which would increase the threat tremendously).

Secondly, for leaders, you could also give them thrall herd class features, turning them less into mindless walkers, and more into strong will-less cohesive units.

[arkangel111]

If it were me I would tie the infection to magic. Make the zombies "feed" off magic, not brains. If you really think about it magic is equivalent to technology, the biggest challenge in an apocalypse is the loss of the normal statis quo.
the zombie virus transfers through the use of magic, maybe your spells actually turn you into a zombie, lol 0 spells give an auto 50% chance to turn and increase the chance by 5% per spell level. This would encourage your players to stay away from magic based classes and would let you cherry pick classes you would allow, perhaps a totemist works fine or maybe you decide it acts similarly and thus carries a steeper penalty. The zombies are attracted to magic items and such so your party had to decide if that +1 sword is worth it, and rather or not they decide to use that scroll and Summon all zombies in the city to them. If it were me I would introduce some wild magic into the world as well and give all magic a chance to make their life miserable.
The threat to the PCs that are mundane is nearly the same as a normal zompocalypse but they feed off the "inherent" magic in all creatures. I would vary the types of zombies as others have suggested since the classic zombie is only a threat in the first couple levels, use ideas from dying light, or other zombie survival games.

[smcmike]

If it were me I would tie the infection to magic. Make the zombies "feed" off magic, not brains. If you really think about it magic is equivalent to technology, the biggest challenge in an apocalypse is the loss of the normal statis quo.
the zombie virus transfers through the use of magic, maybe your spells actually turn you into a zombie, lol 0 spells give an auto 50% chance to turn and increase the chance by 5% per spell level. This would encourage your players to stay away from magic based classes and would let you cherry pick classes you would allow, perhaps a totemist works fine or maybe you decide it acts similarly and thus carries a steeper penalty. The zombies are attracted to magic items and such so your party had to decide if that +1 sword is worth it, and rather or not they decide to use that scroll and Summon all zombies in the city to them. If it were me I would introduce some wild magic into the world as well and give all magic a chance to make their life miserable.
The threat to the PCs that are mundane is nearly the same as a normal zompocalypse but they feed off the "inherent" magic in all creatures. I would vary the types of zombies as others have suggested since the classic zombie is only a threat in the first couple levels, use ideas from dying light, or other zombie survival games.

I like this. I was thinking of a different risk for using magic: attracting the attention of more (or more powerful) undead. Turning might destroy a lot of zombies, but also send up some sort of a beacon for them, or their masters. Giving zombies an innate attraction to magic doesn't completely change the picture, but it could be a fun wrinkle.