How much is a feat slot worth to you?

[SangoProduction]

Assume the most powerful a feat could be for your character, because we are talking about a feat slot. So, you could have used it on an actual feat that would

If you could give a feat slot for a portion of your Wealth By Level (scaling as you level up), what portion of it would it be? Would it be different at different levels?
[What I mean: If you traded your feat for wealth at level one, you'd also gain the bonus if you level to level 2. Similarly, if you took it at level 3, you'd gain it for levels 2 and 1, retroactively.]

If you could give a feat slot for skill points, just how many would you need?

[Troacctid]

If you could give a feat slot for skill points, just how many would you need?

Anything less than 5 skill points and you go infinite with Open Minded. So it has to be minimum 5.

[OldTrees1]

Well the value of the Nth feat slot is less than the value of the N-1th feat slot. So the gp value of a feat slot is not dependent on the best feat for your character but rather it is dependent on the next best feat excluding the ones you have already taken.

I would make a quick and messy estimate of I would trade 3K, 5K, or 10K gp for feats on the order of Improved Trip, Staggering Strike, or Combat Reflexes respectively. The price would not scale since you are assumed to accumulate effects.


As for skills, I am disappointed by Nymph's Kiss(1skill point/HD) but satisfied with Thug(+2 skill points per fighter level, -1 fighter feat, & better skill list) so around 2-3 skill points/HD would be worth a feat in my opinion.

[AmberVael]

There's no set formula I can really give for wealth by level, but the gold value of a feat is substantial if you're talking about the best feats. For instance, one of the obvious feats to choose is Leadership, and your cohort is equipped with a fair amount of wealth at no cost to you. And then you get the value of having a second character. And a bunch of lackeys.

As for skill points, keep in mind that Nymph's Kiss is a feat that exists, giving +1 skill points per level... and a bonus to charisma checks, and a bonus to saves. And its considered decent, but not amazing. I'd say a skill point feat would have to give a scaling number of skill points, and probably more than one per level.

[eggynack]

Really depends on the class/character. If a barbarian's best feat is improved trip, and their second best feat is shock trooper or something, and a druid's best feat is natural spell, with aberration wild shape second best, then those characters are going to value those feats differently. At a certain level of return, I'd probably ditch even the better combat feats, but if I'm losing aberration wild shape, then I don't think there's much with that same value added, and anything that would be worth the same would be necessarily massive. When you pull in characters that naturally have a pile of feats, like the fighter, things get even more complicated.

There's a reason classes are described as feat starved to various degrees, and it's because a feat slot is worth more to them than it is to others. And, on that note, I agree that your asserted valuation is incorrect. A feat slot is worth not your best feat, but rather the worst feat that you have, or the less potent feat that you're about to take. Of course, this is complicated by the presence of prerequisites, or on a broader level, the sometimes existent trend towards better feats on the basis of more abilities to work off of, but this isn't necessarily the most important factor.

But, by that same token, in addition to the previously stated class factor, timing is very important to a feat's power level. Returning to the druid, a feat before wild shape is pulled from a reasonably broad set, including animal companion feats, initiate feats, standard magic/crafting feats, and of course, greenbound summoning. A feat at this point is very powerful. Around levels six through twelve, the addition of wild shape adds feat options like natural spell, aberration wild shape, exalted wild shape, and dragon wild shape, as well as rashemi elemental summoning, and those feats from before that haven't been taken yet. In some ways, feats at this point therefore have even greater value. After about twelve though, the list becomes more limited, as you're not getting new feats, and are running low on old ones, so feats at this point are probably at the lowest value they'll ever be. Thus, a druid's feats start high in price, rise in price from there, and then steadily lower. Consider that logic as applies to the game as a whole, and you'll see how lacking a single price would be.

[Extra Anchovies]

If I could trade 1 class-granted skill (e.g. downgrading rogue from 8 to 7) for one feat, I'd do it on most builds. If I could trade one feat for (the equivalent of) one class-granted skill (such as through DSP's version of Open Minded), I would only do it on some builds. So a feat is, to me, generally worth more than skill points.

In fact, there are a lot of things that feats can be spent on that I'd gladly trade away class-granted versions of for more feats - hexes, proficiencies (who even needs heavy armor?), slayer talents, that sort of thing.

[Telok]

I'd put the wealth option at +5 levels. A third level character short one feat has 8th level wealth. There are two reasons for this, you can buy feats as items which makes them vulnerable to dispelling and loss and higher level feats are often more powerful or more versatile because then are part of a feat chain.

I'd put the skill point option at something like going from a fighter amount and list to the rogue amount and list. That would put the rogue at something like all the skills being in class and having the points to take almost half of them. Which, considering the number of skills it takes to be any good at the most basic rogue stuff, I'm ok with.

If you want to talk class features I'd trade feats for a class feature from a class on the tier list at a rate of... (7 - tier) feats for one class ability. Letting a fighter trade six feats for cleric spellcasting seems fair. Probably with the caveat that some abilities are replacements instead if straight purchases, like a bard getting sorcerer casting for five feats would trade out the bard spellcasting instead of having both casting abilities.

[Barstro]

Playing Pathfinder, I've had a character who didn't even really need a feat at a particular level. Others would have certainly wanted an extra feat early on.

I think the answer is very build specific.

[marphod]

With Item Familiar we can put actual costs on the value of feats.

An item familiar's value depends on character build and power choices, but has a potential value of at least (CL+3)^2*100 (one maximized skill bonus) plus 1000 gp at 7th level (sentience), at least 6000 at 10th, +10000gp at 14th, and +14000 gp at 18th. (value of weapon enhancements)




Level
Value
Level
Value
Level
Value


3
3600gp
9
15400gp
15
49,400 gp


4
4900gp
10
23,900gp
16
53,100gp


5
6400gp
11
26,600 gp
17
57,000gp


6
8100gp
12
29,500 gp
18
75,100gp


7
11000gp
13
34,600 gp
19
79,400gp


8
13100gp
14
45,700 gp
20
83,900 gp



We can also price slots based on magical items that are feat-equivalents and other factors.
Which means it is entirely inconsistent.

[Vhaidara]

It depends on the level. As you get to higher levels (and thus have more feats anyways), they become less valuable.

For example, I was making a Snake Charmer Magus (akashic archetype, focused on BFC). The game is mythic, so the complete list of feats I want
Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Mythic) Improves Grapple, Greater Grapple, (Mythic) Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, (Mythic) Improved Reposition, Greater Reposition, (Mythic) Improved Trip, Greater Trip.

That's 15. Entirely manageable on a Mythic Magus by 20, but at level 3 Mythic 1 (my start point), I want
Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, (Mythic) Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike
That's 2 feats over what I have (Tiefling). So right now, I would give a good deal to get more feats. But in a few levels? I'll have plenty of feats to cover what I want to do.

[Renen]

I dunno... How much you guys think leadership is worth?

[marphod]

I dunno... How much you guys think leadership is worth?

A rules re-write?

[KingSmitty]

leadership has its pros and cons, but ultimately it depends on how much control your DM gives you.

Can you take flaws?

[Gabrosin]

As for skills, I am disappointed by Nymph's Kiss

Really? This is one of my favorite feats. You know it does more than just add skill points, right? Getting +1 to most saves and +2 to all charisma-based skill checks, plus the extra skill points, is outstanding for any party face.

[Necroticplague]

Well the value of the Nth feat slot is less than the value of the N-1th feat slot. So the gp value of a feat slot is not dependent on the best feat for your character but rather it is dependent on the next best feat excluding the ones you have already taken.

Due to the prerequisite system and existence of feat chains, the first sentence is false. My n-1 feat slot may be much less valuable than my N feat slot, if the N is Shock Trooper, and the N-1 is Imp Bull Rush to qualify.

[eggynack]

It depends on the level. As you get to higher levels (and thus have more feats anyways), they become less valuable.
As I noted, there are definitely some factors working against that tendency. On barbarians and druids alike, I'd value the 6th level feat over the 1st level feat, assuming I'm able to get the prerequisites for shock trooper in the former case, and as was stated generally, that feat slot will be worth more for just about anyone if leadership is on the table. In a sense, every individual feat slot on every character has its own unique pricing with no easily defined external formula.

[OldTrees1]

Really? This is one of my favorite feats. You know it does more than just add skill points, right? Getting +1 to most saves and +2 to all charisma-based skill checks, plus the extra skill points, is outstanding for any party face.

Yeah, I am not really a fan of wasting feats on +tiny numbers benefits. So while those +tiny numbers benefits do make the feat stronger, my party face characters would have preferred twice the skill points instead.


Due to the prerequisite system and existence of feat chains, the first sentence is false. My n-1 feat slot may be much less valuable than my N feat slot, if the N is Shock Trooper, and the N-1 is Imp Bull Rush to qualify.

That is an edge case(which do exist as exceptions to the rule). In general you will go after your most valued option before your next most valued option(I would take Combat Reflexes before Improved Trip). The same is true for magic items. For a set amount of wealth, a deduction of Xgp would take from your least liked magic items first.

[Vhaidara]

As I noted, there are definitely some factors working against that tendency. On barbarians and druids alike, I'd value the 6th level feat over the 1st level feat, assuming I'm able to get the prerequisites for shock trooper in the former case, and as was stated generally, that feat slot will be worth more for just about anyone if leadership is on the table. In a sense, every individual feat slot on every character has its own unique pricing with no easily defined external formula.

I was referring to feats in general. My point was more about "the more you have, the less individually valuable they are", not "higher level feat slots are less valuable than lower level feat slots"

[Necroticplague]

That is an edge case(which do exist as exceptions to the rule). In general you will go after your most valued option before your next most valued option(I would take Combat Reflexes before Improved Trip). The same is true for magic items. For a set amount of wealth, a deduction of Xgp would take from your least liked magic items first.

Except that the entire way the feat system is structured, it's not an edge case. Many feats require other feats as prerequisites, which usually aren't as good (core is infamously full of 'feat tax' feats, like toughness and endurance that are horrible but needed for better feats). Just another example: toughness is a crappy feat. On it's own, I'd never take it. However, I am willing to take it using my very first feat slot, because it allows for the excellent Troll Blooded.

Or if we want to talk microeconomics
OptionA:2 utils.
OptionB:2 Utils
OptionC:1 Util.
OptionD: 4 Utils, requires option C.

If you only had one slot to take on of these options, the rational choice would be to go with A or B. However, if you had two slots, the rational decision would be to pick up C and D, not A and B (despite both individually being rational to take over C).

[eggynack]

I was referring to feats in general. My point was more about "the more you have, the less individually valuable they are", not "higher level feat slots are less valuable than lower level feat slots"
But, as was also also noted, feats don't necessarily reduce in value when collected together. There's the higher level factor, but the barbarian also depends on prerequisites for picking up shock trooper, and the overall impact is that the third feat could be worth more than the second, partially by virtue of being the third feat selected. There is an overall push towards lower impact from later feats, but that push is resisted by some other forces, including one that also applies to feats collected en masse in general.

[OldTrees1]

Except that the entire way the feat system is structured, it's not an edge case. Many feats require other feats as prerequisites, which usually aren't as good (core is infamously full of 'feat tax' feats, like toughness and endurance that are horrible but needed for better feats). Just another example: toughness is a crappy feat. On it's own, I'd never take it. However, I am willing to take it using my very first feat slot, because it allows for the excellent Troll Blooded.

Or if we want to talk microeconomics
OptionA:2 utils.
OptionB:2 Utils
OptionC:1 Util.
OptionD: 4 Utils, requires option C.

If you only had one slot to take on of these options, the rational choice would be to go with A or B. However, if you had two slots, the rational decision would be to pick up C and D, not A and B (despite both individually being rational to take over C).

It is not the way the feat system is structured, you are describing an emergent property of poor quality control for content(and that property decreases with optimization).

1)Clumping
Let us jump into that microeconomics. First notice that Option D was worth 2.5 Utils/slot. Sure it takes 2 of my slots, but it is worth more per slot than Option B. Therefore I would take Option D before Option B.

2)General avoidance of Feat Taxes
While core is full of feat taxes, most of those taxes end up making the options above them worth less than the alternatives. In addition there have been ways to get around feat taxes or alternatives with fewer/better prerequisites. Wolf Totem Barbarian cut Knock-down from 2 prerequisites(1 feat tax) down to 1 prerequisite(0 feat taxes). Three Mountain Style has a few feat taxes but Staggering Strike has none for a very similar effect.

3)Most of the feat taxes are too expensive for the feats beyond them while most of the valuable feats have few prerequisites that could be called feat taxes.
Consider Combat Reflexes, Standstill, and Staggering Strike as some examples.

The end effect is that the number of feat taxes on a character sheet decrease with optimization revealing the general trend of people prioritizing the best first and the worst last. The few remaining feat taxes are just edge cases resulting from viewing Option C in isolation rather than as a part of Option D.

[Gabrosin]

Yeah, I am not really a fan of wasting feats on +tiny numbers benefits. So while those +tiny numbers benefits do make the feat stronger, my party face characters would have preferred twice the skill points instead.

Getting twice the skill points instead would be a bad deal until you reach higher levels.

Nymph's Kiss grants a +2 circumstance bonus to each of your eight charisma-based skills (nine if you're playing with Use Psionic Device). To duplicate that effect you'd need 16 ranks, which you wouldn't have gotten until level 13 by simply doubling the skill points you get (assuming you take the feat at level 1). It's true that you probably wouldn't put those extra ranks evenly across all your charisma-based skills; disguise and handle animal rarely come up, for instance, and perform is mostly ignored by non-bards. But it's also true that the feat's bonus lets you go above and beyond what you'd get for a feat where you were already maxing your skill ranks, and it applies to four of the game's strongest skills (bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and UMD).

Interestingly to the original question, Nymph's Kiss is a feat where you can roughly calculate the value. Its skill bonus is similar to a 4500 gp Circlet of Persuasion, but at +2 instead of +3, which would probably cost 2000 gp instead (2 ^ 2 * 500 gp). +1 to saves is worth 1000 gp, and an extra skill point per level is most of the benefit from getting +2 to intelligence, which is about 4000 gp (though getting that with an item doesn't give you extra skills, using the price for a +2 inherent bonus would distort the exercise too much). So roll that all together and the feat is worth something in the neighborhood of 7000 gp. I'd argue it's worth more, since its circumstance bonuses are better than competence or resistance bonuses (because they stack with everything and don't preclude you from using an actual Circlet of Persuasion and Vest of Resistance). Put another way, once you do have a Vest of Resistance +1, the feat's save bonus is now worth 3000 gp instead of 1000 gp, since that's how much more it would cost to take your Vest up to +2. So it's fair to say that Nymph's Kiss is worth 7000 gp to a level 1 character and goes up in value the more powerful you get.

[ericgrau]

I'd ballpark it at 10% wbl give or take a bit. I mean to upgrade your weapon another +1 equivalent is about half that much at level 20. But you probably max out your weapon before level 20, and with the right amount of optimization you may be able to do better with a feat.

I'd never gauge it based on your best feat. At most your 2nd best feat because you will always have at least 1 feat before you get the gold-based feat. And if we assume it is common to play around levels 5-10 or higher and you get 1 or more bonus feats, it's more like your 6th best feat or worse. Likewise if a feat has a level pre-req or similar, you can't go by the value of that feat just because it's your Xth feat; you'd have it anyway. But if you are able to finish a chain earlier thanks to a feat bought with gold, then that could be worth more.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just one more feat slot? In the ballpark of 10-15K seeing as that is comparable what it costs to buy one by RAW.

Specific feats though? Anywhere from a few hundred GP to fifty thousand plus GP.

Hell, there are characters were I would give up my entire WBL allotment for Exceptional Deflection, Infinite Deflection, and Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Field; so that would be 33% per feat.