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Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 09:50 PM
Partially inspired by Miko, mostly inspired by players who take levels in Paladin and aren't up for the task.

The Hypocrite Paladin
Due to sheer arrogance, an unwillingness to admit that you're wrong, a total lack of understanding the concept of a Paladin, or any combination of the three, your zealotry has become powerful enough to alter reality to a limited degree.

Prerequisites: Alignment: Any, but must still believe that you are a Paladin, must have lost Cleric/Paladin powers at one point due to gross violation of dogma/code of conduct, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks, Power Attack, must rationalize evil and chaotic actions whenever they arise in order to delude yourself that you are right and just.

Hit Die: d10.

Saving Throws: Fort: Good, Ref: Poor, Will: Good.

Base Attack Bonus: Good.

Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Swim.

Skill Points at each additional level: 4+ Int Mod.

Class Features:

Grace of the Zealot: A Hypocrite Paladin adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all Saving Throws.

Smite Infidel: A Hypocrite Paladin's Smite Evil is turned into Smite Infidel. Smite Infidel works as Smite Evil but includes anyone that does not follow your interpretation of your religion/philosophy/deity. However, it is still is seen as "Smite Evil" in a Hypocrite Paladin's eyes. At 5th level, a Hypocrite Paladin can Smite Infidel twice per day, and three times per day at 9th level.

Stubborn Close-mindedness: A Hypocrite Paladin is so convinced that he has not Fallen that any Divinatory magic or logical reasons to the contrary will not work on the Hypocrite Paladin. Whenever a Hypocrite Paladin uses Detect Evil on a creature that would be classified as "Infidel" under "Smite Infidel," that creature registers as Evil, regardless of its actual alignment. Whenever a Hypocrite Paladin personally uses a divinatory spell on himself to register his status, he will get a reading that he is still a Paladin and Lawful Good. As he believes himself to be right, he registers as "truthful" under Detect Lie, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, etc.

Scourge of the Heathens: At 2nd Level, Hypocrite Paladins are renowned for their intolerance to others who do not share their world-view. Hypocrite Paladins gain the Bane property on any weapons that they wield against those who would register as "Infidels."

Turn or Rebuke Undead: As a Cleric of the Hypocrite Paladin's class level-2.

Aura of Arrogance: Beginning at 3rd level, a Hypocrite Paladin, as well as all allies within 30 feet of him, gain a +4 morale bonus against mind-affecting effects that would cause a negative modifier or emotion, such as Cause Fear or Crushing Despair.

Rationalize Reality: Beginning at 4th level, if the Hypocrite Paladin that is evil or chaotic gets affected by a spell or effect that targets Chaotic or Evil creatures, a Hypocrite Paladin may make a Will Save equal to the Save DC of the effect with a bonus equal to his Hypocrite Paladin level. If the Hypocrite Paladin succeeds, he ignores the effect. In the case of a permanent effect, such as wielding a magic weapon that only works in the hands of one who is Lawful or Good, he ignores the effect for 24 hours.

Rationalize Atrocity: At 6th level, a Hypocrite Paladin is so skilled at convincing himself that what he is doing is right that he is affected by a permanent Misdirection spell that always make him detect as Lawful Good. The Caster Level is equal to the Hypocrite Paladin's Class Level.

Inspire Fury: Once per day, as a full round action, a Hypocrite Paladin may inspire himself and other allies around him within 30 feet into a religious fervor, granting all affected parties the equivalent of a Barbarian Rage, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Hypocrite Paladin’s Charisma Modifier+3.

Warped Reality: At 10th level, a Hypocrite Paladin is so utterly confident in his cause that he can subconsciously fool reality into thinking that he is right. The Hypocrite Paladin ignores the negative effects of any spell or magic item that affects only a certain alignment. Thus, a Hypocrite Paladin can wield a Holy Avenger and the Sword of Kas without any problem, and is immune to Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Smite Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, and Blasphemy/Cloak of Chaos/Dictum/Holy Word.

Spell List:

1st- Bless, Cause Fear, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Infidel, Divine Favor, Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Magic Weapon, Protection from Infidel, Summon Monster I.

2nd- Bull's Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Eagle's Splendor, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Shield Other, Summon Monster II.

3rd- Cure Serious Wounds, Inflict Serious Wounds, Magic Circle Against Infidel, Magic Weapon (Greater), Prayer, Summon Monster III.

4th- Death Ward, Dispel Infidel, Holy Sword (As spell, but deals +2d6 damage against infidels instead of evil), Mark of Justice.

For the Magic Circle Against Infidel, Protection from Infidel, Smite Infidel, and Dispel Infidel, for the purposes of the effects, an infidel is one who does not share the same world-view and moral values and religion of the Hypocrite Paladin.

{table=head]Level|
Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Smite Infidel 1/day, Stubborn Close-mindedness, Grace of the Zealot|0|-|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Scourge of the Heathens|1|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose One), Aura of Arrogance|1|0|-|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Rationalize Reality|1|1|-|-

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Smite Infidel 2/day|1|1|0|-

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Rationalize Atrocity|1|1|1|-

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose the Other)|2|1|1|0

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Inspire Fury|2|1|1|1

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Smite Infidel 3/day|2|2|1|1

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Warped Reality|2|2|2|1[/table]
In short, I suggest making the "nobody chooses to be a Paladin" fluff part of the Player's Handbook enforceable, rolling a d% to see if the character can be a Paladin. Got too many insane Paladin threads on the Wizards of the Coast message boards as it is.

jindra34
2007-05-03, 09:51 PM
use the tables dude.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 09:57 PM
use the tables dude.

Done. :smallamused:

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 10:07 PM
no......and space everything, its just a huge block of text i rather not read. to do tables do as i do {table] Level| Base Attack Bonus |

do that with no spaces | is \ and shift

Khoran
2007-05-03, 10:10 PM
I'll make a Table for you Gwen, check your PM box in a minute.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 10:11 PM
no......and space everything, its just a huge block of text i rather not read. to do tables do as i do {table] Level| Base Attack Bonus |

do that with no spaces | is \ and shift

Changed it. Should be better on your eyes.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 10:17 PM
thanks, i didnt mean to sound like a jerk or anything. It looks good, better then that actually

EvilElitest
2007-05-03, 10:23 PM
IT is like what the Grey Guard was ment to be
from,
EE

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 10:29 PM
IT is like what the Grey Guard was ment to be
from,
EE

Know what you mean.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 10:31 PM
i am sure complete champion will have some good anti-paladins PrC's

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-03, 10:37 PM
So, it's DnD holy scripture that Powergaming Munchkins aren't necessarily bad roleplayers; but it's still assumed that anyone who picks up the paladin class is?

Isn't there enough snarky insulting of the code of honor? (Based mostly off a comic that is meant to parody bad roleplaying and not the class itself)

Furthermore, why do people only seem to have issue with LG roleplaying?
I'm sick of dealing with CN people who ignore everyone's plot hooks but themselves and randomly kill people and then claim that "CN let's me do anything"

Or the Evil player who isn't self-motivated or diabolical in interesting ways but really just treats the other players really rudely and demeans everyone's play experience?

Or CE who randomly kills an NPC for no real character reason and then says "hey I'm evil, I can do this!"

EvilElitest
2007-05-03, 10:39 PM
So, it's DnD holy scripture that Powergaming Munchkins aren't necessarily bad roleplayers; but it's still assumed that anyone who picks up the paladin class is?

Isn't there enough snarky insulting of the code of honor? (Based mostly off a comic that is meant to parody bad roleplaying and not the class itself)

Furthermore, why do people only seem to have issue with LG roleplaying?
I'm sick of dealing with CN people who ignore everyone's plot hooks but themselves and randomly kill people and then claim that "CN let's me do anything"

Or the Evil player who isn't self-motivated or diabolical in interesting ways but really just treats the other players really rudely and demeans everyone's play experience?

Or CE who randomly kills an NPC for no real character reason and then says "hey I'm evil, I can do this!"

Who are you yelling at?
from,
EE

Khoran
2007-05-03, 10:43 PM
Oh, I just realized, you forgot to put in the spells per day for this class.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-03, 10:43 PM
Not yelling at anyone, I'm more expressing dislike for the idea that the Paladin class has some intrinsic connection to bad roleplaying.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 10:44 PM
So, it's DnD holy scripture that Powergaming Munchkins aren't necessarily bad roleplayers; but it's still assumed that anyone who picks up the paladin class is?

Isn't there enough snarky insulting of the code of honor? (Based mostly off a comic that is meant to parody bad roleplaying and not the class itself)

Furthermore, why do people only seem to have issue with LG roleplaying?
I'm sick of dealing with CN people who ignore everyone's plot hooks but themselves and randomly kill people and then claim that "CN let's me do anything"

Or the Evil player who isn't self-motivated or diabolical in interesting ways but really just treats the other players really rudely and demeans everyone's play experience?

Or CE who randomly kills an NPC for no real character reason and then says "hey I'm evil, I can do this!"

I'm not against roleplaying a Paladin, I am against those who use the Paladin as an excuse to enforce their will on fellow party members and those are not "Good." Just because you are a Paladin does not mean that you can act like a religious nutjob.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 10:46 PM
Oh, I just realized, you forgot to put in the spells per day for this class.

I'll just make them have the same spells per day as the blackguard. Although I do not know how to make that advanced table. I just copied and pasted it from a private message.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 10:46 PM
i am confused on that one to.....im sick and tired of Miko threads and Thank god roy's dead threads....as well as alignment threads and "HOW D&D sucks" threads....oh and while i am at it im sick of people complaining the spell system sucks, and how everyone's opinon is wrong save for theirs.....now that i got that off my chest who are you yelling at now?

Gwenfloor
2007-05-03, 10:47 PM
i am confused on that one to.....im sick and tired of Miko threads and Thank god roy's dead threads....as well as alignment threads and "HOW D&D sucks" threads....oh and while i am at it im sick of people complaining the spell system sucks, and how everyone's opinon is wrong save for theirs.....now that i got that off my chest who are you yelling at now?

To everyone: It's just a game. Order of the Stick is just a comic. Nothing to get incredibly riled up about. Just don't take it out on others.

Innis Cabal
2007-05-03, 10:51 PM
i was being sarcastic, making fun of him for complaining about your class since this isnt the place for it

Sammi_Somara
2007-05-03, 11:02 PM
So, it's DnD holy scripture that Powergaming Munchkins aren't necessarily bad roleplayers; but it's still assumed that anyone who picks up the paladin class is?

Isn't there enough snarky insulting of the code of honor? (Based mostly off a comic that is meant to parody bad roleplaying and not the class itself)

Furthermore, why do people only seem to have issue with LG roleplaying?
I'm sick of dealing with CN people who ignore everyone's plot hooks but themselves and randomly kill people and then claim that "CN let's me do anything"

Or the Evil player who isn't self-motivated or diabolical in interesting ways but really just treats the other players really rudely and demeans everyone's play experience?

Or CE who randomly kills an NPC for no real character reason and then says "hey I'm evil, I can do this!"

I agree with you. I usually roleplay NG or CG, but LG's no problem for me. The only probelm I have is with the stick-up-the-ass king of LG, and people seem to think that all LG-aligned character's are like that--THEY'RE NOT! Just take Aerie from BGII as an example!

Duskwither
2007-05-04, 01:59 AM
Fluff-wise, this class could be a lot of fun. Something I already love doing, is if someone is playing a paladin in my campaign, and they do something to warrant the loss of powers, I have an Arch-Fiend jump in, continue pumping them powers, and making the church look bad.

Mechanically, I have to say this thing is awesome. Smite Infidel could be used to brutal effictiveness on... well, anything. Fooling yourself that you're still a paladin is one thing, but being able to fool everyone else is golden.

Demented
2007-05-04, 02:06 AM
For the Magic Circle Against Infidel, Protection from Infidel, Smite Infidel, and Dispel Infidel, for the purposes of the effects, an infidel is one who does not share the same world-view and moral values and religion of the infidel.

Emphasis mine. Whoops.

Khoran
2007-05-04, 03:47 AM
I'll just make them have the same spells per day as the blackguard. Although I do not know how to make that advanced table. I just copied and pasted it from a private message.

Yeah, I was the one that PMed you with the table, I'm made a new table to reflect this.

Hypocrite Paladin Now with Spellscasting(c)
{table=head]Level|
Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Smite Infidel 1/day, Stubborn Close-mindedness, Grace of the Zealot|0|-|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Scourge of the Heathens|1|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose One), Aura of Arrogance|1|0|-|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Rationalize Reality|1|1|-|-

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Smite Infidel 2/day|1|1|0|-

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Rationalize Atrocity|1|1|1|-

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose the Other)|2|1|1|0

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Inspire Fury|2|1|1|1

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Smite Infidel 3/day|2|2|1|1

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Warped Reality|2|2|2|1[/table]
Here you go :)

EvilElitest
2007-05-04, 06:16 AM
Not yelling at anyone, I'm more expressing dislike for the idea that the Paladin class has some intrinsic connection to bad roleplaying.

OK then


I agree with you. I usually roleplay NG or CG, but LG's no problem for me. The only probelm I have is with the stick-up-the-ass king of LG, and people seem to think that all LG-aligned character's are like that--THEY'RE NOT! Just take Aerie from BGII as an example!
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Aerie like a sterotypical meek LG girl?

from,
EE

Gwenfloor
2007-05-04, 02:36 PM
Emphasis mine. Whoops.
Oops!

Yeah, I was the one that PMed you with the table, I'm made a new table to reflect this.

Hypocrite Paladin Now with Spellscasting(c)
{table=head]Level|
Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Smite Infidel 1/day, Stubborn Close-mindedness, Grace of the Zealot|0|-|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Scourge of the Heathens|1|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose One), Aura of Arrogance|1|0|-|-

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Rationalize Reality|1|1|-|-

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Smite Infidel 2/day|1|1|0|-

6th|
+6/1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Rationalize Atrocity|1|1|1|-

7th|
+7/2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Turn or Rebuke Undead (Choose the Other)|2|1|1|0

8th|
+8/3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Inspire Fury|2|1|1|1

9th|
+9/4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Smite Infidel 3/day|2|2|1|1

10th|
+10/5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Warped Reality|2|2|2|1[/table]
Here you go :)

Thank you!

Sitzkrieg
2007-05-04, 07:49 PM
Grace of the Zealot: A Hypocrite Paladin adds his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all Saving Throws.


I think this would usually be written as: "A Hypocrite Paladin adds his Charisma bonus to all Saving Throws." Saying Charisma bonus means only positive.

Other than the nit-pick, I think this is a funny prestige class. I don't know if you're worried about the balance of it or if you're just having fun, but it might be a tad bit strong. A player could just declare that everyone and everything is an infidel, and get big bonuses against everything.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-05, 12:45 AM
I think this would usually be written as: "A Hypocrite Paladin adds his Charisma bonus to all Saving Throws." Saying Charisma bonus means only positive.

Other than the nit-pick, I think this is a funny prestige class. I don't know if you're worried about the balance of it or if you're just having fun, but it might be a tad bit strong. A player could just declare that everyone and everything is an infidel, and get big bonuses against everything.

Well too bad. He cannot smite characters who are raised with the same belief system and interpretation of his god, which means that it will not work on his fellow nutjobs.

Erk
2007-05-07, 04:45 AM
To limit the infidels thing a bit more, an "infidel" should be someone who has already actively refuted the paladin's worldview. Someone unaware of the hypocrite paladin and/or her sect of beliefs should not register as an infidel, even if they would strongly disagree with the paladin once they had a chance to.

So, Miko the Hypocrite Paladin meets some random fighter and Detects "evil" on him. He registers as nonevil. Then she has a brief chat with him and he finds out how nutty she is and starts trying to talk sense into her. Angry, she reflexively runs another Detect "evil" on him and finds out that, somehow, he hid it before! He is in fact "evil"!

This prevents the paladin from smiting everything. Many things won't have the brains to give 2 bits about the paladin's worldview, and so are immune. Many more NPCs will not have time to learn and worry about it, so they are also unaffected. Since a fair number of the paladin's abilities are infidel-based that helps limit her a bit.

I think a few other effects are overpowered but I don't feel like debugging right now :) fun class overall... best suited to NPCs of course, but could make an awesome villain.

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-07, 10:37 AM
Liek omg he smites EVERYTHING 3/day!!
Big deal.

I like it, but you should give a paladin level buyback option, like the blackguard has.

mikeejimbo
2007-05-07, 10:48 AM
*curls up in fetal position in a corner*

This class scares me...

*sucks thumb*

bosssmiley
2007-05-07, 11:12 AM
This would work as a self-satisfied and smug Zealot of Pholtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholtus). Great anti-hero/non-evil antagonist class.

Tallis
2007-05-07, 01:03 PM
I agree that detect infidel should be limited to those that have actually refuted the hypocrit's worldview. Seems like the class is open to abuse if you don't put mechanical limits on the powers instead of just roleplaying ones. I would also include an idea of where the new powers actually come from in the fluff (archfiend would be a good example I think).
Funny idea, I'm not sure if I'd allow it in my world, but it definitely has potential.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-08, 12:00 PM
This would work as a self-satisfied and smug Zealot of Pholtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pholtus). Great anti-hero/non-evil antagonist class.
The very concept of Pholtus is what gave me this idea.
How can Saint Cuthbert be Lawful Neutral and Pholtus be Lawful Good when worshipers of Pholtus are allowed to be Clerics and convert people against their will, destroy Chaos and then Evil in that order (part of Pholtus' dogma is to wipe out Chaos in an area, then Evil once Chaos is purged), and thinking that non-humans are not "touched by the light" as much as human worshipers due to their different cultural beliefs?
Normally, individual acts would not be enough to warrant a change in the deity's alignment, but enough of these should change Pholtus' alignment to Lawful Neutral. One friend told me that somewhere, they officially changed Pholtus' alignment to Lawful Neutral. If so, where is this conversion?


I agree that detect infidel should be limited to those that have actually refuted the hypocrite's worldview.
Even in real life, fellow faithful people are seen as infidels/heretics if they do not conform to certain standards, even if they agree with the world-view.

Toliudar
2007-05-08, 02:09 PM
I think this is a really fun idea for a class, but actually more powerful than a paladin in most things, if I'm reading correctly. May I assume that the prerequisites would be something like:

Attack bonus: +6
Diplomacy: +8
Special: Must have taken at least one level in the paladin class, and then have lost the ability to continue to advance in that class.

By not saying "and then lost their paladin abilities", it leaves the door open to characters who are former paladins but have wandered into other classes, without necessarily having screwed up so badly as to have fallen. This may or may not be what you want for this class.

Fun and flavourful! Nicely done.

drawingfreak
2007-05-10, 02:03 PM
Any chance we can throw together something similar for clerics? I am DMing a game in RL with both Clerics and Paladins who think they are still doing things in their god's name.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-10, 07:17 PM
I changed the prerequisites so that Clerics can enter, too!

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-10, 07:34 PM
I agree that detect infidel should be limited to those that have actually refuted the hypocrit's worldview. Seems like the class is open to abuse if you don't put mechanical limits on the powers instead of just roleplaying ones.

but then a random black dragon couldn't be smited and the palidin would go WTF?????

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-05-10, 07:48 PM
and then he would say "Oh well. im not doing my best today." Thay are completely convinced that what they do is rihgt.

Khoran
2007-05-10, 08:05 PM
You may want to have infidel difined on individual basises, and have it talked out with the DM on what falls into the category of "Indifel" and have it diffined by what yoru paladin believes.

Example:
The "Paladin" has an obession with "purity" both in morality and in existance, and feels that it is his duty to cleanse the world of all things that are vile, unnatural and impure. Because of his idea of destroying all those who are not morally pure, he is still able to use his Smite against anything that is evil, beliving that he is ridding the world of the wreched. His crusade against the Unnatural allows him to smite certain creature types, regardless of alignments. Due to their alien nature, abborations would most definitly fall into this category, due to their basis in dark magic, so would undead. However, it is not limited to those two. The Paladin is convinced that creatures such as Dragons are just another form of these unnatural and unclean creatures, that they are all evil (regardless of their true alignment) and that they all must be destroyed for the good of the mortal races. However, this does not soley limit itself to Dragons, but anyone who sympathizes with them. This includes people who have a draconic ally, or who worship a draconic diety, regardless of their actual alignment. Finally, because of the PrC's mindset that they are always in the right, they are able to smite anyone who tries to oppose them as they execute their "Sacred Mission". This would include thing such as true paladins, who they would see as fallen and would therefor destroy for their heracies and dark nature.

This could be the agreement that the Player and DM could come to on the Paladin's view of the Infidel and what falls into that category for game mechanics reason.

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-10, 08:18 PM
good point...
"The dragon is red in-side, it must be evil!"

Khoran
2007-05-10, 08:32 PM
good point...
"The dragon is red in-side, it must be evil!"

Or they could just be ignorant.
"Silver Dragons?! They're just white ones with shiny scales!"

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-10, 08:34 PM
lol...
the curse of arogant stupidity, aka the mule.

drawingfreak
2007-05-11, 02:51 PM
I changed the prerequisites so that Clerics can enter, too!
But what about Domain spells. How would a hypocrite cleric explain not being able to use them or if he could use them, what makes him able to without the blessing of his god?

Gwenfloor
2007-05-11, 05:37 PM
If he remains at least one step of the deity's alignment until he atones for violating the dogma, which he won't, since he will never admit that he is wrong unless he wishes to use his class features, he can still use spells. Otherwise, he uses the Hypocrite Paladin's spell list.

Koga
2007-05-11, 06:01 PM
Furthermore, why do people only seem to have issue with LG roleplaying?
I'm sick of dealing with CN people who ignore everyone's plot hooks but themselves and randomly kill people and then claim that "CN let's me do anything"

Or the Evil player who isn't self-motivated or diabolical in interesting ways but really just treats the other players really rudely and demeans everyone's play experience?

Or CE who randomly kills an NPC for no real character reason and then says "hey I'm evil, I can do this!"
Word, The Koga's lawful good, and he'd like to see you haggle him like you do the average paladin.

http://www2.fileplanet.com/images/110000/114058ss_sm2.jpg
Accusastion: Asscosiation with a known felon by wasting time calling The Koga hypocritical and counterproductive instead of helping him find the perpetraitor or atleast staying out of his way.

Verdict: Guilty.

Setencing: Shot in the left testicale with a crossbow bolt!

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-05-11, 08:44 PM
ouch, that would hurt. (especially if it was barbed)

Dryad
2007-05-11, 09:10 PM
Just for emphasis:
It takes experience to roleplay a lawful character. Lawful evil characters are interesting, and if played well, the most scary buggers around.
Lawful neutral characters can also be very interesting.

But lawful Good... That takes training. The first paladin I met:
Pala: I detect Evil.
DM: Well, about a third of this amphitheatre is evil.
Pala: I start smiting Evil!
DM: Well, after the first blow, you'll have to atone, first.
Pala: Why? I smite Evil!
DM: *sigh* Because killing something just because it's evil is evil. Just that they're evil doesn't mean they're guilty, or even dangerous.
Pala: But they're EVIL!
DM: Have you seen them dó anything evilish?
Pala: No...
DM: Well, there you are.

And I've had to repeat that same process about ten times, with different paladins. But a few months back, in a game I'm not running, I... Encountered a paladin. The real deal! And since then, I have faith in players again.
(By the way: I also have a lawful Good coward character... A conjurer. Hella fun alignment!)

By the way: I wholeheartedly agree on the infidel thing.. Your weapon is a bane against EVERYTHING. Your smite affects EVERYONE. Your protection spells are against EVERYONE.
Ofcourse; the entire world hates your guts and is out to kill you. So that kind of balances it.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-05-11, 10:52 PM
Quick fixes to the paladin class:
Remove Detect Evil; it's kind of dumb.
Change Smite Evil to Smite Injustice: Deal extra damage to someone currently engaged in an evil act.

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-14, 08:28 PM
good point AA

Erk
2007-05-14, 10:52 PM
So, then, if they stop doing the evil act when you show up it's all okay? ;)

Dryad
2007-05-14, 11:56 PM
Well... No, for the lawful bit. But... Yes; you can't just smite everyone you come across just because they don't share your ideology, which basically is what smite evil is all about...

Erk
2007-05-15, 12:50 AM
Personally, I think it should just be Smite, for all paladins, and it can affect good and evil alike - with increased damage against undead and supernaturally evil beings. But that is straying from the point of the thread.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-15, 01:01 PM
Hypocrite Paladins, like religious fanatics in the real world, are few and far between. They are almost universally hated except in places where they are in power or in a culture that condones their behavior. When groups of them are together, and/or in power, they are a very serious threat. They hate anyone who does not agree with them, and they are willing to do anything to enforce their view of reality on the masses. Just like real-world violent religious fanatics.

EvilElitest
2007-05-15, 01:12 PM
sounds like hte scarlet crusaders

Anyways, balnce idea, what if they choose a list of enemies the can smite, like the ranger's spell list


Word, The Koga's lawful good, and he'd like to see you haggle him like you do the average paladin.
I have to say, the Koga is not LG, not in any sense of the word. Sorry. And the church of link's hat protects me
from,
EE

Gwenfloor
2007-05-15, 10:20 PM
sounds like hte scarlet crusaders

Who are the scarlet crusaders?

Khoran
2007-05-16, 12:29 AM
Who are the scarlet crusaders?

They're one of the factions in Warcraft. They're incredibly fanatic group that, if applied to DnD would mainly consist of (Hypocrite) Paladins and Cleric. They mainly seek to destroy The Scourge and Foresaken, though over the course of time, they've strayed more from this and seem more about purifying the world. Basically, with them, you are a member of the crusade, or you are an enemy of the crusade. They'll attack anyone not wearing their tabard, even if it's another human. As with many orginzations like this, the Crusade used to be more righteous and pure, but over time and influence from Outside(r) forces, they've twisted and moved further down the evil axis.

Gwenfloor
2007-05-16, 09:52 PM
They're one of the factions in Warcraft. They're incredibly fanatic group that, if applied to DnD would mainly consist of (Hypocrite) Paladins and Cleric. They mainly seek to destroy The Scourge and Foresaken, though over the course of time, they've strayed more from this and seem more about purifying the world. Basically, with them, you are a member of the crusade, or you are an enemy of the crusade. They'll attack anyone not wearing their tabard, even if it's another human. As with many orginzations like this, the Crusade used to be more righteous and pure, but over time and influence from Outside(r) forces, they've twisted and moved further down the evil axis.

Sounds like suitable Hypocrite Paladin material to me.

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-30, 05:23 PM
Sounds like suitable Hypocrite Paladin material to me.

yep, :smallcool:

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-30, 05:30 PM
I think you would also like the DM's paladin from the Wizard's boards. They reflect not on the players, but on DMs. It's quite funny, especially the capstone: Implosion of the Universe.

drawingfreak
2007-05-31, 01:16 PM
I think you would also like the DM's paladin from the Wizard's boards. They reflect not on the players, but on DMs. It's quite funny, especially the capstone: Implosion of the Universe.
Hmm...link-age?

ImaginalDisc
2007-05-31, 01:28 PM
N00b here, I really like the concept and the class is well executed, but I think it needs two nitpicks.

You omitted an entry on their proficiencies with weapons, armor, and/or shields. I'd suggest "A hypocrite Paladin does not gain proficiency with any weapons or armor." This would prevent fallen clerics from getting martial weapon proficiencies for free, and let's not forget that druids and cloistered clerics can fall too, so let's not give them a path to bunches of proficiencies. The class is devoted to enhancing self-righteous delusion, not well rounded martial training per-se.

Also, why 4 + int class skills? They get good BaB, a respectable spread of saves, intermediate spell progression, and a laundry list of kewl powers. Why not just 2+?

EvilElitest
2007-05-31, 01:38 PM
Who are the scarlet crusaders?

Zealots in the greatest sense of the world
I think their is a WoW wiki site that could help you
from,
EE

MeklorIlavator
2007-05-31, 03:05 PM
Here's the link to the class I was talking about. Its really good for a laugh, maybe a cry if you know someone like that.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=808103

aaron_the_cow
2007-05-31, 05:18 PM
Here's the link to the class I was talking about. Its really good for a laugh, maybe a cry if you know someone like that.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=808103

hahahahhahhahahahaha ROFL!!!!!!!