[3.5e] Alter Self: Form of... HUMAN!

[ApologyFestival]

Hey, Playground. Is there any community consensus on whether it's possible to use the spell alter self to take the form of a human? If so, what benefits, if any, would be gained?

In typical polymorph subschool fashion, I've asked my gaming group and got four different answers:

It's impossible--there is no sample "human" in any monster manual,
It's possible if only to appeal to common sense, but there is no tangible benefit,
It's possible, and the human extra feat/bonus feat is gained--PH 87 refers to the human extra feat as a bonus feat,
It's possible, and the human extra feat is gained, as well as (3+HD) skill points, as the skill points could be considered as a skill bonus.

We just can't reach an agreement. What does the Playground think?

[Urpriest]

The first is definitely false. Alter Self doesn't have book restrictions, as long as the creature in question is a humanoid (and humans are), it's allowed.

The other stuff is pretty ambiguous, really. I'd say the skill points don't count as a racial skill bonus, since they're pretty straightforwardly not. The human bonus feat is essentially a racial bonus feat, but it's different enough that I don't think it's much of a stretch to deny it to your players when they use Alter Self.

[dysprosium]

I can see how an argument would start here. An argument on the internet you say?

Anyway I would not allow any use of alter self to allow a player to get what would essentially be a free floating feat whenever they cast a second level spell. Same with the skills.

The feat thing is worse, because then it opens up waaaaaaaaaaaay too many cans of worms.

It seems to me to be a skirting of the rules. A player wants to have all of the benefits of being human without actually having to play one. If you want the human bonus feat, play a human. That's what I would tell my players.

In my opinion RAW is ambiguous at best in this regard and I would stop it before it started at my table.

[Curmudgeon]

You definitely don't get skill bonuses, because skill ranks are a function of class rather than being a racial bonus. (A Human could spend all their skill points on cross-class skills for ½ skill rank each, resulting in no skill bonuses at all.) You get the Human bonus feat option, but are incapable of using it to select any feat because that option must be exercised at character creation (see Player's Handbook, page 6). (The same goes for feats at higher levels: the only time you may select one is as part of Level Advancement step 7: see Player's Handbook on pages 58-59.)

[Telonius]

Compare that idea to the Heroics spell, from Spell Compendium. That's also a second level Sor/Wiz Transmutation spell of equal duration. It gives you the effects of a feat, but you have to choose from the list of Fighter feats. For another second-level spell to give you a choose-your-own feat without restrictions, and a disguise on top of it? Seems like a bit more powerful than they were intending.

[Nifft]

Bonus feats are generally fixed, and come with a notation in a creature's listing.

A Human's bonus feat is listed as extra, not bonus.

However, in at least some human NPC stat blocks, the human's extra feet is marked with the bonus feat notation.

So... yeah. It's up to the DM.

On the pro side: it would be nice if non-Outsiders got something nice from Alter Self.

On the con side: it's blatant power inflation for casters, who don't need any more power.

Possible power mitigation ideas:
- You can only take a feat which your specific character could have taken at 1st level. So, you can't use Persistent Alter Self to get Craft Staff for just long enough to craft a staff.

[marphod]

On the pro side: it would be nice if non-Outsiders got something nice from Alter Self.

You mean, other than access to swim, fly, burrow, or climb movement speeds, Natural armor up to +8 or so, Claw/Claw/Bite, massive bonuses to hide and move silently, a few weapon proficiencies, access to other subtypes, and a nice disguise bonus?

:belkar:

[Duke of Urrel]

The D&D FAQs (which are available here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)) are not canonical, but they do suggest that the Alter Self spell can either bestow or remove the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points, depending on whether you change from a non-human Humanoid into a human or from a human into a non-human Humanoid. However, although I favor this idea, I am also of the opinion that the rules proposed in the FAQs are too complicated to be workable. Here are my own house rules, for your consideration.

Let’s call the following rule Rule I.


You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels (such as a barbarian's Rage ability), but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels (such as a dragon's Frightful Presence ability).


– from page 207 of the Player’s Handbook v. 3.5 (2nd printing, 2008)

The human bonus feat and human bonus skill points are identified on page 87 of the D&D Frequently Asked Questions (30th of June, 2008) as extraordinary racial traits. The racial traits of dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, half-elves, half-orcs, and orcs are all identified in the Monster Manual as extraordinary. If we choose to follow the FAQs, and you are human, Rule I requires you to lose your human bonus feat [A] and your human bonus skill points [B] when you polymorph yourself with the Alter Self spell into any non-human. Similarly, if you are a non-human Humanoid and you polymorph yourself with the Alter Self spell, Rule I requires you to lose all of the racial traits of your natural form.

A. LOSING THE HUMAN BONUS FEAT: I don't consider any one of a human's feats to be more "human" than the others. I also don't like the idea that a polymorphed human should lose not only the first or second feat he or she ever gained, but also every other feat for which the lost feat was a prerequisite. Instead, I require a polymorphed human to lose only the most recently added feat.

B. LOSING HUMAN BONUS SKILL POINTS: Likewise, I don't consider any one of a human's skills to be more "human" than the others. So here's what I propose to do. Add +3 to your character level; the sum represents the number of human bonus skill points you have. Divide this sum by the number of skills in which you have at least one skill rank. Drop any fraction from this number and convert it to a negative number. The result is the penalty that you must add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have lost your human bonus skill points.

Now, let’s call the following rule Rule II.


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 121 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses [1], racial bonus feats [2], and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).


– from page 207 of the Player’s Handbook v. 3.5 (2nd printing, 2008)

1. RACIAL SKILL BONUSES: According to Rule I (as I have chosen to interpret it, using the FAQs), the Alter Self spell removes the extraordinary racial traits of your normal form, including extraordinary racial skill bonuses. According to Rule II, the Alter Self spell gives you all the racial skill bonuses of the new form that you assume, whether they are extraordinary or natural. I consider human bonus skill points [A] to be an extraordinary racial skill bonus.

2. RACIAL BONUS FEATS: Although I classify most feats (including racial feats, which are derived from racial Hit Dice) as class features, I classify racial bonus feats (those that are identified with a superscript 'B') as extraordinary racial traits. The human bonus feat [B] is one of these. According to Rule I, the Alter Self spell removes the racial bonus feats of your normal form; according to Rule II, the Alter Self spell gives you all racial bonus feats of the new form that you assume, even though these are all extraordinary racial traits.

A. GAINING HUMAN SKILL POINTS: If you gain human bonus skill points by polymorphing, calculate the sum of three plus your character level (which represents the number of human bonus skill points you have) and divide this sum by the number of skills you have. Drop any fraction from this number. The result is the bonus you add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have gained human bonus skill points.

B. GAINING THE HUMAN BONUS FEAT: If you gain the human bonus feat by polymorphing, you can choose any feat for which you already qualified at first level and use it for as long as you are polymorphed. (I reason that this is the result of adding a feat without adding any experience.)

[marphod]

B. GAINING THE HUMAN BONUS FEAT: If you gain the human bonus feat by polymorphing, you can choose any feat for which you already qualified at first level and use it for as long as you are polymorphed. (I reason that this is the result of adding a feat without adding any experience.)

Any feat you would qualify for, if your type was Humanoid (Human).

(And this just opens the problem up to feat-swapping madness.)

[Spore]

We just can't reach an agreement. What does the Playground think?

I know you play 3.5 and not Pathfinder but PF Alter Self is very restricted and has made discussions about the spells null and void while still maintaining the utility. Long story short: Human get Str +2 and nothing else.

[Duke of Urrel]

Any feat you would qualify for, if your type was Humanoid (Human).

(And this just opens the problem up to feat-swapping madness.)

Well, it's madness within limits.

My discussion was limited to the Alter Self spell used alone, so that I was only talking about other Humanoids changing into humans. In this situation, the question of whether you can, by changing into a human, acquire feats forbidden to creature types other than the Humanoid type doesn't come up.

But of course, the Alter Self spell is the foundation of the Polymorph spell and the Shapechange spell, too. So I've got to make a judgement whether a non-Humanoid can acquire a feat available only to Humanoids when changing into a human. I haven't thought this through, but my knee-jerk opinion is yes, why not? If you're a dragon and you use the Polymorph spell to change into a human, you can choose any feat for which a first-level human would qualify. However, you can use this feat only for as long as you remain in human form; when you lose your human form, you lose your human bonus feat, along with your human skill-check bonus, if any.

What I've offered is only a workable set of house rules, no more and no less. Many Playgrounders will reject these rules simply because they're an annoying complication.

On the positive side, my house rules make the game a little fairer with respect to the different Humanoid species. We might consider it unfair that nearly every Humanoid species except for humans loses some extraordinary racial traits when it uses the Alter Self spell, whereas humans lose nothing, because they have nothing to lose. We might also consider it unfair that when any non-human Humanoid changes into a human, he or she gains nothing. My house rules correct these imbalances.

[Nifft]

You mean, other than access to swim, fly, burrow, or climb movement speeds, Natural armor up to +8 or so, Claw/Claw/Bite, massive bonuses to hide and move silently, a few weapon proficiencies, access to other subtypes, and a nice disguise bonus?

:belkar:

Yes, exactly.

Humanoids need some sugar on that to compete with Outsider PCs.

Note the color of the text.

Everything you say is valid and true, and Outsider PCs still have a Colossal++ advantage.

(Colossal++ is like Colossal but with templates, objects, and better type-checking.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think Curmudgeon's ruling is correct RAW*, and it produced a desirable, elegant result: you never lose^ or gain human bonus feats, and you never lose or gain human bonus skill points, preventing much senseless cheese and hassle.

You could, as a variant rule, allow each player to pick a 'human bonus feat' at character creation, and purchase bonus skill ranks where applicable, as well. Any time they alter self into a human, that's their bonus feat and skill ranks. This is a little silly ('I became human, I extract MORE KNOWLEDGE from my nonhuman memories!'), but a lot less cheesy than floating feats.


*Insofar it's possible to be correct here or anywhere - after all, language is nothing if not ambiguous, and D&D rules sometimes more so than intended. Arguments can be made both ways, and so on.
^This is probably not the case if you consider the extra feat an (ex) quality.

[ShaneMRoth]

It's impossible--there is no sample "human" in any monster manual,


The sample human template appears in the PHB, so there.



It's possible if only to appeal to common sense, but there is no tangible benefit,


Well, a tangible benefit is as a tangible benefit does.



It's possible, and the human extra feat/bonus feat is gained--PH 87 refers to the human extra feat as a bonus feat,


While this quote could be the source of all manner of RAW mischief, it seems that the spell is referring to racial bonus feats that apply to all examples of that template. As in a specific feat that all humans gain by virtue of their sub-type. An undefined "bonus feat" simply doesn't cut it.

Racial Bonus Feats are defined:

Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B).

So unless all feats in the Core are superscripted with a B for Bonus? Nope.



It's possible, and the human extra feat is gained, as well as (3+HD) skill points, as the skill points could be considered as a skill bonus.[/list]

While the Alter Self spell does allow for Racial Skill bonuses to apply, it doesn't include skill points.

The character is clearly the same person she was before she cast Alter Self. She retains all of her capabilities, including skills, for the duration of the spell.

The Spell is Alter Self, not Retcon Self.


We just can't reach an agreement. What does the Playground think?

I think that at least four reasonable human beings at your table are capable of reading the same rules and reaching at least four different conclusions.

It falls to the referee to adjudicate this, should it ever come into play.

If it were up to me to adjudicate, the player character would take on the human sub-type, gain no "elective" bonus feats, and the only skill bonus I would grant would be the +10 Disguise bonus if attempting to impersonate a specific human.

I wouldn't worry about how this spell application might play out in the so-called Tippyverse, a campaign setting so theoretical that it isn't even substantial enough to manifest itself at an actual game table.

[Nifft]

IMHO the human's skill ranks are not a skill bonus, because they're ranks, and they're due in part to the character's class.

(A racial skill bonus would be the same independent of class choice.)

Hmm.

Some feats are also dependent on class choice, whereas a racial bonus feat would always be the same no matter what class you took at level 1.

Hmm. I think I just talked myself into disallowing a floating Human-form bonus feat.

- - -

To make it unambiguous, maybe I'll phrase it like:

Extra Feat: When you gain your first class level, you gain an additional feat. It may be any feat for which you qualify.
Extra Skill: Each time you level up, you gain an additional skill point which you can spend like any other class-granted skill rank. At first level, you instead gain four additional skill points.

... then, if a player asks about getting a Human bonus feat, I'll ask them if they're turning into a Human while gaining their first glass level. If so, they do get a bonus feat for the duration of the transformation. Then it goes away. Forever.

[Spore]

You could, as a variant rule, allow each player to pick a 'human bonus feat' at character creation, and purchase bonus skill ranks where applicable, as well. Any time they alter self into a human, that's their bonus feat and skill ranks. This is a little silly ('I became human, I extract MORE KNOWLEDGE from my nonhuman memories!'), but a lot less cheesy than floating feats.


There was a spell in PF (Paragon Surge, also 2. level, exclusive for Half-Elves) that gave people a floating feat any time the spell was cast. T'was erratated withint 4 months of release. Gives now the same feat for the whole day, even in further castings of the spell.

[Zhentarim]

The D&D FAQs (which are available here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)) are not canonical, but they do suggest that the Alter Self spell can either bestow or remove the human bonus feat and human bonus skill points, depending on whether you change from a non-human Humanoid into a human or from a human into a non-human Humanoid. However, although I favor this idea, I am also of the opinion that the rules proposed in the FAQs are too complicated to be workable. Here are my own house rules, for your consideration.

Let’s call the following rule Rule I.




– from page 207 of the Player’s Handbook v. 3.5 (2nd printing, 2008)

The human bonus feat and human bonus skill points are identified on page 87 of the D&D Frequently Asked Questions (30th of June, 2008) as extraordinary racial traits. The racial traits of dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, half-elves, half-orcs, and orcs are all identified in the Monster Manual as extraordinary. If we choose to follow the FAQs, and you are human, Rule I requires you to lose your human bonus feat [A] and your human bonus skill points [B] when you polymorph yourself with the Alter Self spell into any non-human. Similarly, if you are a non-human Humanoid and you polymorph yourself with the Alter Self spell, Rule I requires you to lose all of the racial traits of your natural form.

A. LOSING THE HUMAN BONUS FEAT: I don't consider any one of a human's feats to be more "human" than the others. I also don't like the idea that a polymorphed human should lose not only the first or second feat he or she ever gained, but also every other feat for which the lost feat was a prerequisite. Instead, I require a polymorphed human to lose only the most recently added feat.

B. LOSING HUMAN BONUS SKILL POINTS: Likewise, I don't consider any one of a human's skills to be more "human" than the others. So here's what I propose to do. Add +3 to your character level; the sum represents the number of human bonus skill points you have. Divide this sum by the number of skills in which you have at least one skill rank. Drop any fraction from this number and convert it to a negative number. The result is the penalty that you must add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have lost your human bonus skill points.

Now, let’s call the following rule Rule II.




– from page 207 of the Player’s Handbook v. 3.5 (2nd printing, 2008)

1. RACIAL SKILL BONUSES: According to Rule I (as I have chosen to interpret it, using the FAQs), the Alter Self spell removes the extraordinary racial traits of your normal form, including extraordinary racial skill bonuses. According to Rule II, the Alter Self spell gives you all the racial skill bonuses of the new form that you assume, whether they are extraordinary or natural. I consider human bonus skill points [A] to be an extraordinary racial skill bonus.

2. RACIAL BONUS FEATS: Although I classify most feats (including racial feats, which are derived from racial Hit Dice) as class features, I classify racial bonus feats (those that are identified with a superscript 'B') as extraordinary racial traits. The human bonus feat [B] is one of these. According to Rule I, the Alter Self spell removes the racial bonus feats of your normal form; according to Rule II, the Alter Self spell gives you all racial bonus feats of the new form that you assume, even though these are all extraordinary racial traits.

A. GAINING HUMAN SKILL POINTS: If you gain human bonus skill points by polymorphing, calculate the sum of three plus your character level (which represents the number of human bonus skill points you have) and divide this sum by the number of skills you have. Drop any fraction from this number. The result is the bonus you add to every skill check for as long as you are polymorphed, to reflect the fact that you are have gained human bonus skill points.

B. GAINING THE HUMAN BONUS FEAT: If you gain the human bonus feat by polymorphing, you can choose any feat for which you already qualified at first level and use it for as long as you are polymorphed. (I reason that this is the result of adding a feat without adding any experience.)
Interesting idea