Wishing for Feats or Skills

[Jay R]

I know that wishes are judgment calls by DMs if they aren't one of the categories listed in the books, so I am asking experienced DMs what you would do if somebody wished for extra Feats, skills, or skill points.

1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?

2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?

3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?

4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?

7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?

8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?

There's no immediate need for this information. I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm playing with the rules.

Thanks!

[Bronk]

I know that wishes are judgment calls by DMs if they aren't one of the categories listed in the books, so I am asking experienced DMs what you would do if somebody wished for extra Feats, skills, or skill points.

1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?

2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?

3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?

4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?

7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?

8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?

There's no immediate need for this information. I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm playing with the rules.

Thanks!

1, 2, and 3: Heh. If someone wished for extra feats, they would have feat just, heh, all over. Probably not in super useful places either.

4-8: A wish worded as asking for skill 'ranks' would probably just put their name on a skill contest leader board somewhere, where they would be easily dislodged in the next round.

That said, I guess it's all about the game and about how the wish is worded. Plus, there's always the extra use of 'Wish' in Savage Species that lets you wish yourself into a new race.

For myself, I might let a wish for one feat slide, maybe by transporting them to a planar touchstone site or something like that, but honestly, if someone asked for 4 more 'feats', I probably wouldn't be able to resist just sticking feat on them. I'd just make it a curse though... unless I decided to put the insectile template on them.

Skills... well, there is that one feat that grants 5 skill points, so there's a start.

[marphod]

I know that wishes are judgment calls by DMs if they aren't one of the categories listed in the books, so I am asking experienced DMs what you would do if somebody wished for extra Feats, skills, or skill points.

1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?


Depends on the feat. I might put them near a touchstone that is relevant. I might give them a permanent heroics. I might give them a magic item with the feat. If it was a really crappy feat without much abuse potential (Skill focus(swim) or Run) I might give it to them. I might make them spontaneously join a relevant organization, swap out a crappy feat, or similar.

Most cases, that would be a failed wish. Or a foot growing on their forehead.


3. How about two Feats? Three? Five? with one wish? nope.


4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

A wish can give a +1 inherent bonus to int. Which is effectively 1/2 a skill rank per hit die. So, sure. 1 wish for getting an extra rank every odd level, plus an extra for 1st level. Doing it again would require 2 in succession, then 3, then 4. Not sure how to stack with wishes for int, though.

If they asked for a specific skill, all the ranks into that skill.


5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?
See above.

I'd probably let a wish add a skill to a class list, too.


8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?
What about skill tricks? (answer: same as per ranks)

[OldTrees1]

1-3
I would grant 1 feat of reasonable strength(which usually involves buffing martial feats or nerfing caster feats) without prerequisites(although at my table I have not come across a reason to skip prerequisites after my feat adjustments).

4-7
I would grant 2x(HD+3) skill points which would of course continue as they gained more HD and gaining those skills as class skills.

8
I would also allow them to take a single use feat to gain +2 skill points/(HD+3) which would of course continue as they gained more HD.

Note: These rulings presume that all feats are around Improved Trip through Combat Reflexes in value, that characters get a minimum of 4+Int skill points already, and that the DM is willing to work with them on their class skill lists.

[Aegis013]

It's all about circumstance and the feats/skills in question, and the player's intended use of these things.

If the Wizard/Dweomerkeeper says "I want to use my Su Wishes to give myself free feats. May I?"

The Wish would backfire somehow, but I'd probably warn them that's not a good idea before they finalized the action.

If the fighter-type character who is struggling along next to the Wizard asks if he can request a Su Wish from the Wizard to get a weapon style feat or something that would be cool/nice but wasn't good enough to justify expending his natural feat slots on, it'd work.

Where exactly the line is will be different. I'd just adjudicate those types of things on a case-by-case basis.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would make it swap one or more of their existing feats and/or skills for whatever was wished for (and its prerequisites). Alternatively, the Wish would make them into a Human and spend their bonus skill points and feat on whatever they wished for.

[Gabrosin]

How would a character know what a "feat" is? This has always bugged me about the heroics spell too.

If a character were able to phrase their wish as a requested that closely mimicked a feat, I'd be more inclined to grant it to them. Like, if a barbarian asked, "when I down an opponent I'd like to get to hit someone else right away", then okay, grant Cleave as a bonus feat. If the same character said "I'd like to be able to subtract up to five from my base attack bonus to gain an equivalent damage bonus", I'm failing that. The character doesn't know what those terms are.

[Shoat]

Wishes are always uttered in-character. The concept of feats does not exist in-game, your character would never have a reason to ask about them.

If someone wished, in-character, to learn a specific ability that is mechanically represented by a feat, sure.
Because in-game, a character would never have any excuse to ask for overpowered powergaming feats (it'd always be something that, lore-wise, makes sense for the character to know about and want to be able to do).

[Seto]

1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?

2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?
Probably, yes. I'd still insist on deciding on a case-by-case basis to avoid abuse, especially in cases where the PC doesn't have the prerequisites. But a feat should be a possible thing to wish for IMO, yes.

3. How about two Feats? Three? Five? No.


4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks? On principle and off the top of my head, yes (in both cases), with 10 skill points. "I want to be a very good swimmer" is something that Wish should allow for, in my opinion. I'd just talk the player into choosing something else if it was a game-breaking skill (Diplomacy or UMD abuse) or something that takes relevance away from another PC (if the Cleric wishes for Disable Device when there's a dedicated Rogue in the party, for example).


6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?

Yes. No. No. I'd grant ten, although reluctantly because "I want ten skill points" is a pretty imprecise Wish and is likely to not make sense in-character. (Even if you don't pronounce the words "skill points" and instead say "I want to be better at, huh, things"). I'd work with the player to see why their character asks for that and how we could make it make sense in-game.


7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?

See above.

[Magesmiley]

So, ability points are within the realm of a wish. Given that a character gets an ability point every four levels and a feat every three levels, I'd rate one feat as less valuable than one ability point.


I know that wishes are judgment calls by DMs if they aren't one of the categories listed in the books, so I am asking experienced DMs what you would do if somebody wished for extra Feats, skills, or skill points.


1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?
Yes.


2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?
Generally no. They'd have to use a wish for each prerequisite and then use another wish for the feat they really want. I probably would let them use a wish to allow themselves to ignore up to 2 prerequisite feats when selecting a feat (provided they acquired the feat normally or spent another wish on the feat).


3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?
Two wishes, three wishes, five wishes.


4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?
Yes. As was previously mentioned, there is a feat that allows you to gain 5 skill points. That actually seems a little low - I would probably grant 6 per wish, subject to normal rank limitations.


5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?
I'd say that permanently making a cross-class skill a class skill is a reasonable use of a wish. I wouldn't give any ranks though unless they expended another wish. If they just wished for the skill without making it a class skill, 6 skill points (or 3 ranks), subject to normal rank maximums.


6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?
Nope. They'd just get 6.


7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?
6.


8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?

There's no immediate need for this information. I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm playing with the rules.

Thanks!

Magic items that grant feats is another can of worms.

[Afgncaap5]

Wishes are always uttered in-character. The concept of feats does not exist in-game, your character would never have a reason to ask about them.

If someone wished, in-character, to learn a specific ability that is mechanically represented by a feat, sure.
Because in-game, a character would never have any excuse to ask for overpowered powergaming feats (it'd always be something that, lore-wise, makes sense for the character to know about and want to be able to do).

Yeah. If a player talked to me about a wish beforehand and asked for, say, Open Lock as a class skill with maxed out ranks, I'd probably just ask for them to wish, in character, "I wish that I was the world's best lock picker" and then give them what they wanted, with the expectation that they'd have to start putting ranks into it from that point on to keep the wish 'active.' (Using the Nome King's justification from the Oz books that he gave someone a long life even if they killed themselves shortly afterward. "I gave him a long life. Then he threw it away. My bargain was fulfilled.")

Now that I think about it, this would be a decent way to mechanically handle "I want to be the best <person who performs a specific task that isn't a class by itself> in the world" wishes.

[ShaneMRoth]

1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?


No, but I would point out to the player, before the Wish was cast, that he could Wish for a Magic Item that granted a Feat.



2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?


No, but I would say the same thing here as for example 1.



3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?


No, no, and no.



4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?


No, but I would point out to the player, before the Wish was cast, that he could wish for an item that granted bonuses to skills.



5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?


No, I would respond the same way that I did in example 4.



6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?


No, no, and no.



7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?


None. But I would make sure that the player knew he could use the Wish for a really sweet magic item that gave skill bonuses.



8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?


None that I can think of.



Thanks!

You are welcome, Citizen.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are various gold costs for feats floating around, such as 3k for a permanent, non-dispellable Iron Will, to around 10k for a dispellable, losable Combat Reflexes. Since wish can create magic items, you could wish for a slotless magic spleen brooch of Combat Reflexes (to be worn internally, no line of effect), paying XP as if wishing for a 20.000 gp item - 5000 XP + 1600 XP.

For practical (item tracking) and fun reasons, I'd just dispense with the magic item stuff, and call it a regular feat, balanced by the XP cost.

[Pex]

A wish is not an excuse or permission for a DM to screw over a PC. If a character wishes for a feat, he does not suddenly grow a foot out of his nose. It's fine to have reasonable restrictions to avoid unintentional problems but have perspective. It is a wish. It's going to be a powerful effect.

One wish for one feat is not unreasonable. It is also not unreasonable the character must already have any prerequisites, but ability score, race, or class requirements might be waived.

One wish to make one skill a class skill is not unreasonable.

One wish for a number of skill points > 1 is not unreasonable. Here it becomes more a matter of taste. A flat 5 skill points isn't bad. One skill point per current level/HD can also work.

It is not an unreasonable restriction that for each wish of a feat or skill, the source of the wish can only be used once. If a wizard casts Wish to get a feat, to cast Wish again for another feat would mean his previous feat-granted Wish goes away if you would even allow this second Wish to work at all. However, if the wizard gets a Wish from another source, such as a Solar rewarding him for a Great Good Deed, he gets the second feat while keeping his own wished-for feat. Skills get their own feat wish use, but you can group skill points and all skills becoming class skills together for that use.

Multiple wishes cast in succession allow for +2 or more ability score increases. It is thus reasonable to allow multiple wishes in succession override the one wish use limitation for feats if the earlier feats are prerequisites for the final feat and/or each other.

[gadren]

Here's what has always worked for me.

1. Listen:
I tell the player they need to tell me what the character says. The wording of the wish is important.
They are also allowed to tell me what mechanical effect they are hoping for, but I can't promise they'll get that.

2. Calculate:
Whatever they get from the wish should not be worth more than 25,000 gp. Different feats are worth different amounts, so I don't have a blanket policy on feat acceptability. However, other people have done the work of cataloging items that grant feats, so that helps to figure out how much the desired feat is worth: http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.html
Keep in mind that a feat would be like a slotless magic item, doubling its value.

3. Grant:
For reasonable requests (one's worth under 25k), I typically grant the feat. For unreasonable requests, I tend to grant something that fits the letter of what they said, even if it is not what they want.

Example 1: A player wants the Far Shot feat, and says "I wish I could hit things farther away with ranged weapons than I can now."
The value of this ish is about 16,000 gp, so I don't see a problem. I just grant them feat, instead of being a **** about how general the wording was.

Example 2: A level 17 player wants the Epic Dodge feat, even though he meets none of the prereqs. He says "I want to be able to completely dodge one attack every six seconds without err."
I don't even know what the value of this feat would be, but it sure as heck is more than 25k. A tiny dancing sword appears. It has an attack bonus of -10, and rerolls nat 20's. It attacks the character exactly once every round.

[Urpriest]

While Wish is cast "by simply speaking aloud", all that means is that the spell has a verbal component and no somatic components. It doesn't, generically, mean that the character actually must state what they desire verbally.

Regardless, though, if a player asked for something build-related like a feat or skill points I'd try to figure out what they actually wanted, storywise. Chances are there are more efficient ways to achieve that, and ideally a nonstandard Wish, like a custom item, should be something well-motivated by the story.

[OldTrees1]

2. Calculate:
Whatever they get from the wish should not be worth more than 25,000 gp. Different feats are worth different amounts, so I don't have a blanket policy on feat acceptability. However, other people have done the work of cataloging items that grant feats, so that helps to figure out how much the desired feat is worth: http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/feats.html
Keep in mind that a feat would be like a slotless magic item, doubling its value.

Remember for this step that price and value are 2 different things. Price is the gp cost WotC put on the feat, value is the gp cost WotC ought to have put on the feat. Frequently price > value when it comes to WotC.

[Solaris]

A wish is not an excuse or permission for a DM to screw over a PC. If a character wishes for a feat, he does not suddenly grow a foot out of his nose. It's fine to have reasonable restrictions to avoid unintentional problems but have perspective. It is a wish. It's going to be a powerful effect.

One wish for one feat is not unreasonable. It is also not unreasonable the character must already have any prerequisites, but ability score, race, or class requirements might be waived.

One wish to make one skill a class skill is not unreasonable.

One wish for a number of skill points > 1 is not unreasonable. Here it becomes more a matter of taste. A flat 5 skill points isn't bad. One skill point per current level/HD can also work.

It is not an unreasonable restriction that for each wish of a feat or skill, the source of the wish can only be used once. If a wizard casts Wish to get a feat, to cast Wish again for another feat would mean his previous feat-granted Wish goes away if you would even allow this second Wish to work at all. However, if the wizard gets a Wish from another source, such as a Solar rewarding him for a Great Good Deed, he gets the second feat while keeping his own wished-for feat. Skills get their own feat use, but you can group skill points and all skills becoming class skills together for that use.

Multiple wishes cast in succession allow for +2 or more ability score increases. It is thus reasonable to allow multiple wishes in succession override the one wish use limitation for feats if the earlier feats are prerequisites for the final feat and/or each other.

Pretty much exactly this.

Twisting wishes for the lulz got old years ago. What's so terrible about letting players have nice things?

[Rebel7284]

If DM allows wishing for feats, but not skill points, there is always the Open Minded feat. =)

[Knaight]

I'd generally be inclined to allow a feat or a major change to a skill (e.g. one skill pushed to max ranks, or changed from cross-class to class*) as the results of a wish. With that said, in the case of the wish spell in particular having a total feat/skill boost limit seems sensible. The attributes can stack to +5 each, so 5 feats maximum seems reasonable.

*Though I don't use the cross-class mechanics to begin with.

[Stegyre]

Twisting wishes for the lulz got old years ago. What's so terrible about letting players have nice things?
Especially true when we're talking about 28,000+ of a PC's wealth. I won't accuse anyone of badwrongfun in how they choose to play D&D, but . . .

No, I take that back, when a GM uses his or her power to screw a PC on a wish, that's just badwrongfun.

I personally have no problem with a wish for a feat. Feats are great. (I find them more interesting than class levels, in many cases.) It would be great to have ways of getting more of them, and there are so many other ways characters can get the equivalent of feats for money: grafts, psychic chirurgery, feat locations. This strikes me as a no-brainer.

While I agree with Pex that a restriction on the number of times this can be done is not unreasonable, I think it is also reasonable to have no such restriction: if this is how characters choose to spend their WBL, it seems to me as valid as any other choice.

[Jay R]

These answers are great.

Not only am I getting the answer to the questions I asked, I'm getting an excellent overview for how various DMs treat wishes - probably far better than I'd have gotten if I'd merely asked for an overview of how you treat wishes.

[NichG]

For me, it depends on the source of the Wish and more generally on how access to wishes works in that campaign.

- If Wish is available essentially on-demand and without XP cost, then I would not permit any such Wish to grant a permanent or persistent character improvement outside of the standard uses of increasing stats by a maximum of +5. That would include the generation of magic items beyond the non-magic item wealth cap.

- If Wish is available on-demand but with an XP cost that can't be negated no matter what (including negation by making someone else pay the price, using a Thought Bottle to reset XP, or by paying with gold instead of XP by e.g. purchasing a bunch of Luck Blades), I'd balance what it can do around that XP cost. If we were playing an E6 game, then one feat is about 5000xp, so that would be within reason for a Wish costing 5000xp. One feat can get you 5 skill points, so if you wished directly for skill points you could get 5 at this cost. Similarly, there are feats which turn a single cross-class skill into a class skill, so along the same lines a Wish of that sort could give you one skill of your choice as a class skill.

- If access to Wish is very rare and requires a quest or one-off circumstances to achieve, then I'd permit a Wish to do much more for an individual character, including granting free templates or new powers homebrewed out of thin air.

- If as above, but the Wish is a 'cursed wish' (that is, comes from a source which is known and guaranteed to corrupt it) but the player presses on regardless, then I'd permit a Wish to do even more extreme things, possibly affecting multiple characters or even the underlying rules of the game. The way I generally run 'cursed wishes' these days is to say that a cursed wish gives the wisher what they want according to intent and the limit of its power, but it also grants a wish of equal potential to a great force of evil somewhere in the setting. The wishes are completely independent and both played straight: even if the wisher just asks for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, Asmodeus can still wish to create a plague that turns humans into his mind-controlled puppets.

[Uncle Pine]

First of all be wary that these aren't "safe" wish, so PCs (and everyone else) should be wary that wishing for things beyond the normal limits of the spell will bring dire consequences along the intended benefit. Or even without the benefit, at times. As such, don't be scared of going into great details while describing what happens in these circumstances.


1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?
Did the PC specified it was an "extra" feat? Or did it simply asked to gain the X feat?
Case 1: the PC didn't specified she wanted an extra feat, so you simply remove one feat of your choice from her and substitute it with the new one.
Case 2: the PC said "extra" feat, so she end up in an otyugh hole (Complete Scoundrel), a "fetid wretched solitary-confinement pit meant to disgust and break the hardest convict by making her endure the torments of darkness, silence and dread" for a whole week. Afterwards, she is subjected to a series of demonic experiments (Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos; Fiendish Codex 1) fueled by the pain of the previous week that culminate with the PC having is extra feat as well as some serious psychological scars. Note that both Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos require a willing target, but the PC did willingly ask for an extra feat, didn't she? :smallamused:


2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?
I'm afraid I can't do that.


3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?
See 1. Except double (or triple/quintuple) the consequences as you double/triple/quintuple the rewards. :smallamused:


4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?

7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?

As I see it, you can't get extra skills. Everyone has every skills, even though one may lack the skill ranks to use it effectively or use it at all in case of skills that require training. As such, number are partially "wrong" questions and wishing for "an extra skill" would result in discovering that you've had all the skills inside you all along (or something like that), but I may be nitpicking. If I am, sorry about it.
As for feats, there are two cases: in the former, the PC only asked for X ranks in a certain skill (i.e. 5 ranks in Autohypnosis), so you can simply shift the proper amount of skill points from one skill to the new one (in the example, 5 if Autohypnosis is a class-skill or 10 if it isn't); in the latter, you can force the ghost of a creature with the required amount of skill ranks in the PC, as per an indefinitely long lasting Leech Ghost Skill spell (Ghostwalk). Note that the ghost may not be happy to inhabit the PC's body and that even if the ghost can't act while Leech Ghost Skill is active it's aware of its surroundings. Also, Leech Ghost Skill can be dispelled. :smallamused:

If a PC asked for extra skill points without specifying for a number, I'd grant it two. Because "points" is plural. I'd still use the Leech Ghost Skill trick explained above, though.


8. What question in this area have I forgotten to ask, and how would you answer it?
"Should I avoid to twist wishes in the most horrible way?"
Yes. Only twist unsafe wishes in the most horribly simple way. Your players deserve to be smacked if they ask for something that would create a dangerous precedent if granted, not tortured. Still, make them fear unsafe wishes or you'll end up in terribly broken situations.

[Taelas]

I'm going to go against the trend here and just say blanket no to pretty much all of these. They open up avenues for abuse that I wouldn't want open.

[Optimator]

I allow it when I DM and my usual DM allows it as well.

One thing I allow which other DMs in my group don't is retroactive skill gain from Intelligence increases with a Wish.

Edit: I would allow a feat as long as prerequisites are met and I would grant 5 skill points.

[Shoat]

I'm going to go against the trend here and just say blanket no to pretty much all of these. They open up avenues for abuse that I wouldn't want open.

When I read things like that I'm happy that my players almost never waste thoughts on optimization (which is why my only restriction for wishes is for them to be properly in-character).

[Kantolin]

While probably not in the spirit of the thread, I have conversations with my players about wishes: You don't wish to break the game and keep to the gentleman's agreement, and I don't pull 'You didn't wish to not be on fire!' style shenanigans. This keeps wish as an interesting 'sometimes spell' without the game becoming significantly higher power than I'd like.

Still, I'd probably be okay with 'spend 5000xp(wish) to get a feat'. I wouldn't, however, be okay with getting more than that nor getting more in the future, so further uses would overlap.

I think I'm also okay with getting '+1 skill point per level' from a wish, as though you retroactively had the human bonus skill points. You can plug them wherever you're allowed to. Again, further uses would overlap.

I am blanket okay with using wish to make a non class skill a class skill, on the fairly few games I run that use class skills anyway.

[Optimator]

Still, I'd probably be okay with 'spend 5000xp(wish) to get a feat'.
My group does this as well--mostly for mundanes and melee-types. Rarely for full-casters unless it's a fluffy feat. It's not going to break the game if someone's Barbarian gets Improved Unarmed Strike or the Agile feat for thematic reasons!

In several of my campaigns I instituted Magical Locations where people could spend anywhere from 1000 XP to 6000 XP (based on my perceived feat power) to acquire thematic feats based on the location. I did a high-mountain Shaolin dojo and a magical laboratory. I thought it was a no-brainer to load up on decent feats but most of my players preferred to stay ahead of the XP curve. Diff'rent strokes.

[Zancloufer]

If they are using a 9th level spell AND burning 5k EXP (not the caster, the receiver of the bonus) most of those do not seem unreasonable. As was mentioned earlier a bonus feat is worth 5k EXP in E6, not to mention Wish explicitly says it can grant a permanent +1 to any stat. Since you get a feat every 3 levels vs an extra stat point every 4, a feat that you QUALIFY for is worth a 9th level spell and 5k EXP.

Skills? I'd say 1/2 level + 1 skill points is not an unreasonable increase to skill RANKS. Ofc you couldn't increase your skill ranks beyond level +3 this way so it would limit the skill point abuse. Mind you I'd want them to word this wish IC, something like : "I want to be better at climbing." or something to that effect.


Also anyone who says wishing for feats is abusive, do remember 5k EXP is still a lot at level 17. 3 Wishes would put you a whole level behind everyone else.

[Mehangel]

Normally, when I GM/DM a game, I am very strict when it comes to wishes and have the following restrictions:

o Wishes have to spoken in-character (This solves probably 40% of wish abuse).
o Wishes cannot include out-of-character knowledge (This solves probably an additional 10% of wish abuse)

So if a player wants a feat or skill bonuses with a wish, it will be possible, but I will determine how it is accomplished. It will probably come by means of a slot item.

By making it a slot item, it means that multiple castings wont stack and what feat or skill bonuses they will benefit from.

[Kantolin]

Ofc you couldn't increase your skill ranks beyond level +3 this way so it would limit the skill point abuse.

...you know. Huh.

Okay, I agree with you, and that's how I've always run it. But now that I think about it, at level 17 I think it would be mechanically okay for 'Spend 5000xp, get a boost on rank cap so you are forevermore level+4'. At that level, this amounts to 'Get a +1 on skill checks if you spend skill points thereon', since you can get into all nonepic prestige classes and qualify for all nonepic feats trivially before that, and if you're allowing epic then either epic spellcasting will throw balance for a loop or you're using house rules anyway and thus can snipe any real problems that I'm not forseeing. It'd be a lot easier at that level to make a ring that gives a reasonable +5 luck/untyped/racial bonus to whatever skill anyway.

(...at least I /hope/ you qualify for all nonepic things by level 17 :P )

Huh. I may have to adjust my general restrictions on that subject.

(Now if you allow that to stack endlessly then we open up another can of worms, as while I'm okay with a level 17 character having 21 ranks in something, I dunno about a level 17 character having 50 ranks in something.)

[ShaneMRoth]

Ofc you couldn't increase your skill ranks beyond level +3 this way so it would limit the skill point abuse.


I found this line to be thought-provoking.

I would never allow a player character to have more than (character level plus three) ranks in any skill.

I would allow a Wish that caused a skill to be rendered a "class" skill for that individual character, though.

A Wish for added feats and extra skill points strikes me as a lot like inventing a Prestige Class.

It is a Wish to customize that PC in a manner that causes that character to no longer technically qualify as a base character class anymore.

It seems to me that this might be a mechanically valid IC method of introducing a new Prestige Class into a campaign.

Not necessarily the only method, mind you, but one powerful and mechanically consistent method.

[Pex]

I'm going to go against the trend here and just say blanket no to pretty much all of these. They open up avenues for abuse that I wouldn't want open.

If you can't trust your players not to ruin the game when given power, why are you playing with them?

Hmm. Not the first time I've said this. Time to change my signature.

[Taelas]

If you can't trust your players not to ruin the game when given power, why are you playing with them?

Hmm. Not the first time I've said this. Time to change my signature.

It isn't so much a ruling for my own personal table (where it wouldn't matter much, if at all--the group I play generally do not optimize much), but it would be open to abuse, so I advise against it.

It also isn't really a matter of trust. If it were, the rules might as well be thrown out the window entirely.

[ShaneMRoth]

If you can't trust your players not to ruin the game when given power, why are you playing with them?

Hmm. Not the first time I've said this. Time to change my signature.

Trust is a two way street. If the players can't trust their DM to adjudicate the rules and not ruin the game, why are they playing?

[Pex]

Trust is a two way street. If the players can't trust their DM to adjudicate the rules and not ruin the game, why are they playing?

Exactly, but it still doesn't explain why a DM would twist the wish or deny it altogether because of fear of "abuse".

[Taelas]

Exactly, but it still doesn't explain why a DM would twist the wish or deny it altogether because of fear of "abuse".

:smallconfused:

What explanation is it you require that isn't already covered by "fear of abuse"? Is that somehow not a valid reason to ban something?

This is not even banning something that is in the game: wishing for feats or skill points aren't covered by the spell, so no matter what, the DM needs to judge whether or not it is allowed. If they decide it isn't, of course they would "deny it altogether".

I really don't understand what you are getting at.

[Pex]

:smallconfused:

What explanation is it you require that isn't already covered by "fear of abuse"? Is that somehow not a valid reason to ban something?

This is not even banning something that is in the game: wishing for feats or skill points aren't covered by the spell, so no matter what, the DM needs to judge whether or not it is allowed. If they decide it isn't, of course they would "deny it altogether".

I really don't understand what you are getting at.

Just because something is new or not covered doesn't mean it will be abusive. To fear something abusive is to fear your players will try to "Win D&D" with it. Because it's new and not covered, that shouldn't mean it oughtn't be tried at all. You think it's abusive, but you don't know. You don't know, but you think your players will exploit it for Ultimate POWER! or else you wouldn't fear it being abusive so you declare your players guilty of abuse and deny the option before they even did anything. You are not trusting your players.

How is the player getting the Wish? Is he casting the spell himself? That's something to consider. Even ability score increases have restrictions so having restrictions on the number of feats is reasonable, but automatically making that number 0 is not. If it's a one time thing granted as a Quest reward, then what's the problem? What's so abusive you fear your players exploiting the game to ruin? The Wish only exists because you as DM made it available. Why are you then forbidding your players from using it? The Wish is for something the player chooses to want, not you as DM choosing for him.

[NichG]

I'm happy when my players take game balance issues into careful consideration when they make choices, but it isn't their job the same way that it's the DM's job. Most players will be willing to do sort of common-sense self-policing like not turning every campaign into Tippyverse just because they can, but if it gets to the point where they have to second guess every choice they make because they need to calculate the overall game balance (including things based on information that they don't even have access to, like other players' character sheets or future character build plans) then its very tiring.

So as a DM, its my job to present the players with situations where I'm okay with them taking full advantage of whatever they can within the situation. Since I'm not perfect, there's always the chance I mess up and something slips past which has to be nerfed, but the better of a job I do with presenting a set of options that can't be abused to the detriment of the game, the less the players have to second guess themselves, and they can really go all out and just take whatever makes sense to them, use whatever combo is possible, etc.

So even if I trust my players, its important to keep things that will be broken or abusable off the table, so that I don't have to say 'hey, sorry, I know you were really excited about this one combo, but actually if you do that its going to make combat completely irrelevant in the long run, so could you hold it back a bit?' or things like that.

[Taelas]

Just because something is new or not covered doesn't mean it will be abusive.
No, it doesn't. But the more complexity you introduce to the game, the greater the chance something will be.


To fear something abusive is to fear your players will try to "Win D&D" with it. Because it's new and not covered, that shouldn't mean it oughtn't be tried at all. You think it's abusive, but you don't know. You don't know, but you think your players will exploit it for Ultimate POWER! or else you wouldn't fear it being abusive so you declare your players guilty of abuse and deny the option before they even did anything. You are not trusting your players.
I am under no obligation to introduce something I am not comfortable with. Period.

It has nothing to do with "trusting my players." For one thing, I am not speaking specifically of my table, but in general. We play within the framework of the rules, and removing limits that were there previously can easily have unforeseen consequences.


How is the player getting the Wish? Is he casting the spell himself? That's something to consider. Even ability score increases have restrictions so having restrictions on the number of feats is reasonable, but automatically making that number 0 is not. If it's a one time thing granted as a Quest reward, then what's the problem? What's so abusive you fear your players exploiting the game to ruin? The Wish only exists because you as DM made it available. Why are you then forbidding your players from using it? The Wish is for something the player chooses to want, not you as DM choosing for him.
I am not forbidding them from making a wish. The wish has explicit things you can do, and I do not alter that in any way. However, I am not under an obligation to introduce new mechanics because a player wants me to. I could just make the wish fail--that is permitted by the spell itself. (It is trivially easy to come up with a way to partially fulfill the wish in a way that does not grant the players anything whatsoever.) I would just tell my players that that is not something they can use the wish for, though.

As for what the problem would be: it really isn't that big a deal in the vast majority of situations; even the best feats aren't that powerful. But I can still see potential for abuse, especially in character creation with high level characters, and as I see no good reason to allow it in the first place, I'd rather simply forbid it.

[Knaight]

I'm happy when my players take game balance issues into careful consideration when they make choices, but it isn't their job the same way that it's the DM's job. Most players will be willing to do sort of common-sense self-policing like not turning every campaign into Tippyverse just because they can, but if it gets to the point where they have to second guess every choice they make because they need to calculate the overall game balance (including things based on information that they don't even have access to, like other players' character sheets or future character build plans) then its very tiring.

Nobody is asking for this. What's being asked for is that players don't deliberately go out of their way to deliberately exploit a loophole. It's more the DM's job to prevent inadvertent balance problems (largely due to the system failing to in the first place, but I digress) and select a power level, but not exploiting the rules is an entirely reasonable expectation.

[Threadnaught]

I know that wishes are judgment calls by DMs if they aren't one of the categories listed in the books, so I am asking experienced DMs what you would do if somebody wished for extra Feats, skills, or skill points.

Interestingly, this has never come up before, well the value of some Feats has been calculated by some interested players on boards such as these ones.

Apparently they're 10000gp +5000-10000gp per prerequisite Feat when creating Magic Items that grant Feats. So as a non-magcal permanent ability, it's within the limits of a Wish.


1. If a PC wished for an extra Feat, would you grant it?

Sure.


2. If a PC wished for an extra Feat without the pre-requisites, would you grant it?

No. Not even if it's just the one prereq.


3. How about two Feats? Three? Five?

One Feat per Wish! :smallfurious:


4. If somebody asked for an extra skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

As in, an extra Class Skill? Sure, as many Ranks as they put Skill Points into it up to their HD +3.


5. If a PC wished for a cross-class skill, would you grant it? With how many ranks?

I just said that.


6. If a PC asked for ten extra skill points, would you grant it? Twenty? Fifty?

If they asked for more Skill Points, they're get ten additional Skill Points due to their assumed level for using Wish being level 17. One Skill Point for every odd level, with a bonus Skill Point for 1st level.
I probably wouldn't let it stack with itself if applied directly to Skills.


7. If a PC just asked for extra skill points, how many would you grant?

Ten Skill Points.


There's no immediate need for this information. I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm playing with the rules.

Thanks!

Do you know the plot of the movie No Man?
Try following that philosophy as a DM and you should be fine.

[NichG]

Nobody is asking for this. What's being asked for is that players don't deliberately go out of their way to deliberately exploit a loophole. It's more the DM's job to prevent inadvertent balance problems (largely due to the system failing to in the first place, but I digress) and select a power level, but not exploiting the rules is an entirely reasonable expectation.

This is with regards to Pex's point of 'If you can't trust your players not to ruin the game when given power, why are you playing with them?'. If you look on these forums, there's a ton of variation in what would be considered legitimate combos and what would be an 'exploit'. There isn't a well-defined line between the two that will be obvious to everyone. You can leave it entirely in the players' hands, but then they have to really self-balance and question every thing they do from an OOC perspective, and that becomes a big damper on the mood.

On the other hand, if you try your best to not put anything in front of them that would be problematic if used to its full extent, you can tell your players 'its okay, you can go all out' and they don't have to worry 'is this going to be considered an exploit?'.

Wish is actually a great example of this, because people look at the 5000xp cost and 9th level slot and consider it a balance factor. But at higher levels, Wishes can actually become very common, and each step along the road to that point seems reasonable until you look back and realize that something that was supposed to be rare and cost 5000xp can now be done for free 4 times a day. There are also implications whenever you have entities who can cast Wish without the XP cost in the setting. Maybe the PCs make an alliance with the City of Brass after helping them out, and now they can legitimately go to their Noble Efreeti buddies and ask for wishes, forcing some justification for why that shouldn't work. All of those kinds of balance factors are things the DM should consider, and it has nothing to do with not trusting your players.

[noob]

Efreets are lawful evil not stupid slaves so they will probably grant you a dozen of wishes as a gift one time when you saved their city then say that if you want more wishes you must help them to invade a plane and things of this kind.
You will never get thousand of wishes only because you saved their city since they would rather use them for convincing other people to help them or ask their slaves to wish for things they want and since their city is saved and that they gave you appropriate pay(12 wishes) the agreement have been done.
the problem is rather when players invade the city of brass and become dictators and mindrape all the efreets.

[NichG]

Efreets are lawful evil not stupid slaves so they will probably grant you a dozen of wishes as a gift one time when you saved their city then say that if you want more wishes you must help them to invade a plane and things of this kind.
You will never get thousand of wishes only because you saved their city since they would rather use them for convincing other people to help them or ask their slaves to wish for things they want and since their city is saved and that they gave you appropriate pay(12 wishes) the agreement have been done.
the problem is rather when players invade the city of brass and become dictators and mindrape all the efreets.

This is the danger - if you're a DM in this situation, its tempting to reach for a plausible IC story for why the players can't do the broken thing, but that IC story isn't the real reason you're blocking it. So e.g. if you tell the players 'the efreeti, despite being your allies, will only give you 12 wishes' and then they say 'well thats fine, we'll just mindrape some of them into wish-engines', then you're stuck with 'um... how can I make that not work?' when you should be saying 'okay, it appears that that's a thing you can do, here's what happens'.

You're blocking it because readily available free wishes pose a game-mechanical problem, yet the game mechanics are telling you that because of the situation then that's something that could potentially happen. So if you can think ahead and consider that possibility before it comes about and make rulings you won't regret if it comes about, then you don't have to stretch as much or force things a certain way to avoid problems down the line.

[noob]

I remember a game master who said that all wishes no matter who granted them were realized by super powerful being who HATED intensely all the creatures wanting wishes and so that if an efreet was your best friend you would still be killed by the wish since he said(the GM) that no matter what you wish you get killed except if you are a npc very far from the players(so far he had never any interaction with them at any level of indirection)

[Pex]

This is with regards to Pex's point of 'If you can't trust your players not to ruin the game when given power, why are you playing with them?'. If you look on these forums, there's a ton of variation in what would be considered legitimate combos and what would be an 'exploit'. There isn't a well-defined line between the two that will be obvious to everyone. You can leave it entirely in the players' hands, but then they have to really self-balance and question every thing they do from an OOC perspective, and that becomes a big damper on the mood.

On the other hand, if you try your best to not put anything in front of them that would be problematic if used to its full extent, you can tell your players 'its okay, you can go all out' and they don't have to worry 'is this going to be considered an exploit?'.

Wish is actually a great example of this, because people look at the 5000xp cost and 9th level slot and consider it a balance factor. But at higher levels, Wishes can actually become very common, and each step along the road to that point seems reasonable until you look back and realize that something that was supposed to be rare and cost 5000xp can now be done for free 4 times a day. There are also implications whenever you have entities who can cast Wish without the XP cost in the setting. Maybe the PCs make an alliance with the City of Brass after helping them out, and now they can legitimately go to their Noble Efreeti buddies and ask for wishes, forcing some justification for why that shouldn't work. All of those kinds of balance factors are things the DM should consider, and it has nothing to do with not trusting your players.

Which is all fine and dandy to have a limitation on wishing for feats and skills, such as a specific total number you can get, a one feat or skill option per wish source, the needing to already have the prerequisites for a feat, etc., but not outright forbidding it just because a player thought outside the box. Players do have a responsibility to be reasonable. If a player is being a smart-alec and trying to use Wish to Win D&D then of course smack him down or diplomatically just say No, knock it off. That's not the case here. The player is not trying to be abusive. He just thought of something cool. Trust him.

[Zancloufer]

Wish is actually a great example of this, because people look at the 5000xp cost and 9th level slot and consider it a balance factor. But at higher levels, Wishes can actually become very common, and each step along the road to that point seems reasonable until you look back and realize that something that was supposed to be rare and cost 5000xp can now be done for free 4 times a day. There are also implications whenever you have entities who can cast Wish without the XP cost in the setting. Maybe the PCs make an alliance with the City of Brass after helping them out, and now they can legitimately go to their Noble Efreeti buddies and ask for wishes, forcing some justification for why that shouldn't work. All of those kinds of balance factors are things the DM should consider, and it has nothing to do with not trusting your players.

I would think there would be a limit to how many "Free" Wishes that you could get out of a Efreeti/Genie. They can grant max 3/day, and you'd have to do something pretty insane to essentially get all of there wishes to yourself. If the players really try to abuse that angle you could always have some in-universe limit based of common sense. Maybe the Efreeti you summoned already used some of his wishes. Also I don't think there is a 100% IC safe way to word a wish for a bonus feat or skill points. If they try to abuse it the Efreeti can be a jerk. "I want to be better a swimming" could end up with the character getting a pair of water-wings.

Also 5k EXP is NOT paltry before Epic levels (and by the time you get to epic levels Epic Level Spell-casting is a thing). You need to use a 9th level spell slot AND almost all the EXP from a level +4 CR encounter to have ONE. Yes if your 20th level Wizard/Cleric somehow has all their 9ths after a Very difficult encounter you could give out a wish to everyone in the 4 person party, if you don't mind not advancing in level anymore. To be honest if I had a choice between 20th level characters pouring all their EXP into wishs for skills/feats they qualify for vs having to deal with Epic levels the choice is quite clear.

[NichG]

I would think there would be a limit to how many "Free" Wishes that you could get out of a Efreeti/Genie. They can grant max 3/day, and you'd have to do something pretty insane to essentially get all of there wishes to yourself. If the players really try to abuse that angle you could always have some in-universe limit based of common sense. Maybe the Efreeti you summoned already used some of his wishes. Also I don't think there is a 100% IC safe way to word a wish for a bonus feat or skill points. If they try to abuse it the Efreeti can be a jerk. "I want to be better a swimming" could end up with the character getting a pair of water-wings.


The solution was given up-thread, which is to Mindrape an Efreeti into being a permanent, dedicated, and loyal servant. You can get as many as you can find. Shapechange into a Zodar is another traditional way to get lots of Wishes, and there you're granting them to yourself. You can also just buy lots of Luckblades.

Anyhow, the point is, if you're blocking something for what really amounts to metagame reasons, then being forced to have the world work a certain way only for sake of blocking the abuse is damaging to the integrity of the game. And its trying to hit a moving target, because you aren't addressing the actual problem, so players who aren't getting the message of why you're blocking it will just move on to the next approach. It feels like a challenge rather than a ban.

It's definitely better to just tell the players OOC to knock it off, but that does involve that moment of crimping their fun. So it's better still if you can arrange things so that it never comes up, or alternately so that even if it does come up it isn't going to wreck the game if the players go all out with it.

[Optimator]

To be honest if I had a choice between 20th level characters pouring all their EXP into wishs for skills/feats they qualify for vs having to deal with Epic levels the choice is quite clear.

Haha good point

[Taelas]

Which is all fine and dandy to have a limitation on wishing for feats and skills, such as a specific total number you can get, a one feat or skill option per wish source, the needing to already have the prerequisites for a feat, etc., but not outright forbidding it just because a player thought outside the box. Players do have a responsibility to be reasonable. If a player is being a smart-alec and trying to use Wish to Win D&D then of course smack him down or diplomatically just say No, knock it off. That's not the case here. The player is not trying to be abusive. He just thought of something cool. Trust him.

It is entirely possible I would allow a limited number of feats (similar to how inherent bonuses are limited to +5) from wishes, but that is not what we were discussing. That is an entirely different scenario.

I might still lean towards saying no, simply because I don't see the reason to say yes, and I am not sure allowing a blanket feat is a good idea. But I'd be more than willing to discuss it with my group.

You seem very hostile towards my opinion, and I don't understand why. I am not denying a player the possibility of doing something simply "because [he] thought outside the box". I am denying it because I see potential problems and I don't see a reason to risk that.


Also I don't think there is a 100% IC safe way to word a wish for a bonus feat or skill points. If they try to abuse it the Efreeti can be a jerk. "I want to be better a swimming" could end up with the character getting a pair of water-wings.

Keep in mind that even if the Efreet is amenable and casts the wish exactly how you want it, the spell can still end up failing. I'm not saying the Efreet can't pervert the wish; they absolutely can, but getting them on your good side is not a guarantee of getting what you want, either.