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View Full Version : Pathfinder What do you think of the 3.5 Warlock class? What would you do to improve it?



MonkeySage
2015-07-29, 03:02 PM
{scrubbed}


Some ideas that I had in converting the class to pathfinder:
Put a limit on the number of uses one can get out of invocations.
Rituals: Magic rituals that take time and preparation, that depend on special timing, etc. They have lasting benefits when performed, beyond what a mere spell could generally grant.
Powers: Supernatural or extraordinary abilities unique to each warlock. Number of uses varies depending on the power in question.


Blood warlock archetype:
Uses an ancient form of magic born of the abyss. Does not use incantations or special gestures; the mere spilling of blood over specially prepared objects creates powerful effects. The blood does not have to belong to the warlock. Warlock can use blood drain as if they were a vampire.

AmberVael
2015-07-29, 03:19 PM
Don't put limits on invocation use. Putting uses per day on invokers just misses the point of the entire system, and makes it even worse than it already is by stripping out the one thing it really has going for it.

The thing the warlock really needs is just more invocations, and more blast shape and eldritch essence options that aren't bad (because the vast majority of them aren't worth it in the slightest). A quick fix for warlock that fits in line with some of the stuff pathfinder has done and what you're talking about would be to have a bunch of different pact options you can make. Pick one pact, gain a fixed list of bonus invocations based on that pact.

Eldan
2015-07-29, 03:26 PM
More invocations. In two ways. Broader selection to choose from and more per warlock. More utilities, too, but I wish that for every class.

Also, stronger blast. Blast doesn't remotely cut it at higher levels.

Prince Zahn
2015-07-29, 03:55 PM
I like the Warlock, problem is it took 5 editions to get it right IMHO. :smalltongue:

I think pathfinder will do the 'Lock more good, since you get a few more feats out of leveling up. I remember someone saying that WotC should have separated blast shapes and eldritch essences from your standard invocations, granting eldritch blast modifying invocations in an extra column on the warlock table.

Hope that helps!

AmberVael
2015-07-29, 04:25 PM
I remember someone saying that WotC should have separated blast shapes and eldritch essences from your standard invocations, granting eldritch blast modifying invocations in an extra column on the warlock table.

This is a common suggestion, and while I see some of its merits I don't think its a good idea. Dividing their invocations and mandating that half must be one thing and the other half must be the other really cuts down on what they can choose to do, and the warlock is in desperate need of more options and build choices, not less.

Morcleon
2015-07-29, 04:29 PM
More invocations would definitely be good. One invocation per level would probably be sufficient. Also, a number of the Warlock invocations should either be buffed to match their designation (least/lesser/greater/dark), or be dropped to a lower designation.

No class that isn't an Int-based full caster should have 2+Int skill points. Give warlock 4+Int or 6+Int.

Let warlock just have fast healing 1/2/5 rather than "out of combat, heal 20/40/100 points of damage 1/day".

Eldan
2015-07-29, 04:32 PM
This is a common suggestion, and while I see some of its merits I don't think its a good idea. Dividing their invocations and mandating that half must be one thing and the other half must be the other really cuts down on what they can choose to do, and the warlock is in desperate need of more options and build choices, not less.

Yeah. That. Maybe I don't want to specialize my warlock in blasting, maybe I want him as a sneaky user of darkness.

MonkeySage
2015-07-29, 04:41 PM
Great suggestions so far...

Alright, so, increase the number and variety of invocations(I think 20 should be enough). Instead of making "Blood Warlock" into an archetype, use it as one of many types of pacts(as per one of the suggestions here regarding pacts).


I'm wondering whether to treat rituals and powers as things separate from invocations.

Ideas regarding powers:
Basically, make certain non-game breaking monster abilities into powers that warlocks inherit from their pact. Blood drain would be a power related to the Blood warlock pact, for instance.
Perhaps some warlocks can fly as a supernatural ability, similar to oni.

nonsi
2015-07-29, 10:34 PM
What do you think of the 3.5 Warlock class?


Great concept - poor execution.
EB derailed passed 11th for no apparent reason.
Not enough known invocations.
Not enough invocations to choose from.
Too low on class features.




What would you do to improve it?


Basically, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777427&postcount=16).

- You can't escape the need to boost EB - it's too much of an intrinsic part of the class to neglect. Approx the same amount of flexible invocations as the official class on top of that would then suffice. More than what I propose would make it too good.
- Making EB more effective aside from enhancement via shapes & essences should also be part of the class.
- Iterative attacks with EB are important, but in a way that doesn't make it rival optimized melees. That brought on the idea that you could make multiple attacks with EB as long as it's shape doesn't turn it into an AoE.
- A warlock's heritage should play a far more significant part in the character's makeup. The character's EB should reflect the warlock's heritage, as well as real and tangible features.
- A little thematic gravy on top - to emphasize the idea of someone bathing in magical energies.
- I don't like pacts shoved down my throat, because that fits the Binder concept more than the Warlock in my view.
- I also never liked the association of the Warlock with magical items, because that spells out "studious" rather than "naturally magical".

faustin
2015-07-30, 04:53 AM
I would like to explore the relationship between the warlock and his patron: what the second gets from the first to justify the investment , and what the warlock is actually risking /giving up for his powers . "Otherwordly Invocations " of Necromancer of the West did this for the Witch class.

khadgar567
2015-07-30, 06:37 AM
give him kinetics blast shapes( aka eb counts as kinetic blast) and feat to make their levels stack(that solves the blast shape and dakka portion problem) then maybe give them demonic companion as class feature( probably start with shadow nymph then let them gain succubus)

MonkeySage
2015-07-30, 02:01 PM
Does anyone have a list of quality 3rd party invocations I could look into? I've settled on the class gaining up to 14 invocations by level 20.
EB gains a new damage dice every other level(up to 10d6), and certain powers can potentially make EB even more damaging than usual.

I'm gonna play with the idea of powers a bit; each different sort of warlock(whether they inherited their power or got it through a Faustian pact) will gain 5 normal Powers and 1 master Power. These can be extraordinary abilities or supernatural abilities. They're limited use per day as opposed to the at will invocations. They are kind of the warlock's answer to wizard specialists and sorcerer bloodlines.

Examples I had in mind for powers:
Supernatural flight
Long distance teleportation
Hellfire(see Hellfire Warlock)
Blood Drain(as previously mentioned for the blood warlocks I'm working on)
Regeneration/cold iron

Different types of warlocks I had in mind:
Hellfire Warlock(loosely based on the prestige class with the same name)
Blood Warlock(use of blood to create magical effects without the need for verbal or somatic components)
(Note here: This one is ingrained in drow culture in my setting; The elves had lost all their magic as punishment for their abuse of magic, and the drow sought an alternative, older source of power. Their goddess used her influence in the abyss to hook up a few elite drow.)
Elysian Warlock(Not much info yet, but their powers come from chaotic good outsiders; I may make this into an archetype, it would involve replacing other class features like fiendish resilience)

I'm throwing out rituals, because I've already got a system down for rituals that almost any class can perform.

They've retained the bulk of the original class features. Still trying to work out what to keep and what to replace.

Adam1949
2015-07-30, 05:57 PM
I'd suggest looking at Zaydos' Jinnblood class for some inspiration, it's got some great invocations to use.

AmberVael
2015-07-30, 06:11 PM
Well I mean its possible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?244815-Pacts-with-the-Dead-3-5-Invocations) that I may have some ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245205-Send-Me-An-Angel-3-5-Invocations) on 3rd party invocations. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232064-Mastering-the-Elements-3-5-Invocations) You know, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265919-The-Kingdom-of-Gaia-3-5-Invocations) a few or so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417958-Make-A-Contract-With-Me!-Invocations)

*the sound of the loudest horn blowing in the background*



Also, I like some of the invocations that The Demented One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?26394-Warlock-Invocations) made.

khadgar567
2015-07-31, 12:55 AM
Well I mean its possible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?244815-Pacts-with-the-Dead-3-5-Invocations) that I may have some ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245205-Send-Me-An-Angel-3-5-Invocations) on 3rd party invocations. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232064-Mastering-the-Elements-3-5-Invocations) You know, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265919-The-Kingdom-of-Gaia-3-5-Invocations) a few or so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417958-Make-A-Contract-With-Me!-Invocations)

*the sound of the loudest horn blowing in the background*



Also, I like some of the invocations that The Demented One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?26394-Warlock-Invocations) made.
amber if you wouldn't mind I am gonna copy some of your work for my harbinger class

AmberVael
2015-07-31, 12:06 PM
I ask that any work that uses mine to refer to it only in stub form (that is, short descriptions that do describe but do not contain the entirety of their mechanics, like most spell/invocation lists), and then link to my work. I find that to be the most respectful method of using other people's homebrew.