How to challenge players?

[frogglesmash]

I'm DMing for a petal rogue/ranger who's got a ring of blinking that's becoming a bit of an irritation, a swordsage/telflammar shadowlord who's doing more damage than I know how to deal with, and a warlock who's not actually a problem. My question is how do I go about mitigating these various abilities without making it feel like I'm constantly falling back on the same tactics to take away their favorite toys.
On a side note: How would you guys go about counteracting the Darkstalker + Hide in Plain Sight combo?

[Mr. Bitter]

It's generally a faux pas to take or seem to take something away from your players. They are probably pretty proud of their awesome abilities. And they should be!

1. Try to let go of whatever it is that is annoying about the ring of blinking. Let the guy blink around. I grant you that it is mechanically clumsy under most rules systems and probably a pain to have to roll all the time, but whatever. If it's really annoying, try talking to the player about simplifying it somehow. Maybe ask for their suggestions about how to make it go more smoothly. Worst-case scenario, buy them out.

2. The high damage character shouldn't be a problem for you: you can always give your monsters more hit points until it feels like you have the right amount. The problem is actually that they are probably a great deal better than the warlock, who might feel bad at the game or have less fun. Help the warlock character get better without being too overt, up your monster hit points (or just up their damage so the fight is a challenge regardless of how deadly the players are), then call it a day.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I've had similar problems in a Gestalt game im running... a Troll (Savage progression) / Barbarian into Warhulk templated monstrosity has like 34 starting strength. Dude also is pretty simple he is trying to literally use strength as a solution to everything. (One of these days I need to completely go over his build.. with assistance i think he's possibly messing with some numbers somewhere but anyway besides the point)

Because of vastly different characters I've had to make some encounters cater to certain players more than others. It lets them shine in it more so than the others and they feel like that special cookie or w/e during it. So far it's worked out. For challenging, I like making encounters be things such as enemies that have been watching them and are able to create difficult scenarios that disable or make useless abilities that are used to often. (I've had an enemy caster Int drain the troll because it was found out the muscle head tanked his Int hard, ie he was dumber than a doornail.) There was some grumbling after but it wasn't instantly it was near end of the combat and legit if a caster sits watching you for like 2 levels and has time to prepare... you gotta expect something. Anyway I wouldn't use that to often or yeah the players get frustrated over losing their favorite toys...

[frogglesmash]

It's generally a faux pas to take or seem to take something away from your players. They are probably pretty proud of their awesome abilities. And they should be!

1. Try to let go of whatever it is that is annoying about the ring of blinking. Let the guy blink around. I grant you that it is mechanically clumsy under most rules systems and probably a pain to have to roll all the time, but whatever. If it's really annoying, try talking to the player about simplifying it somehow. Maybe ask for their suggestions about how to make it go more smoothly. Worst-case scenario, buy them out.

To be clear, I don't want to deprive players of their toys all the time, but I do want to be able to take them away on occasion so they don't start relying on them to heavily. As for the ring, it's not the excessive rolling that's irritating, but the fact that it provides very strong protection against a very wide range of effects making it very hard for me to put the character into any sort of danger without making it unfair for the rest of the players.

[Curmudgeon]

There are counters to these abilities. Blink makes the character be treated as invisible, which means See Invisibility and senses like blindsight will let characters retain their DEX to AC. The more straightforward counter is simply Uncanny Dodge; 2 levels of Scout/Barbarian, or 1 level of Chameleon/Survivor/Cleric with Fate domain give your enemies that capability. Also, this Ring of Blinking is a valuable and powerful item, and attempts to steal it or (last resort) Sunder it should happen occasionally. Shadow Pounce means the Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord is getting a lot of attacks. The usual answer to lots of attacks is Damage Reduction, so the damage per attack is attenuated. There's no reason some of your enemies can't have Unseelie Fey template (DR 15/cold iron) or Mineral Warrior template (DR 8/adamantine). If the Swordsage can make good Knowledge checks — Knowledge (nature) for Fey, Knowledge (local) for Humanoids — they'll know about the DR. If high Knowledge checks aren't possible, they'll be unaware the enemies have DR. (They could suspect DR, just as they could suspect temporary HP or some other reason the enemies take a licking but keep on ticking.)

You've got PCs with interesting abilities. Give their enemies some interesting abilities as well.

[Inevitability]

On your second question: Darkstalker/Hide in Plain Sight can be countered with Mindsight, though it might be hard to get. Another way would be to negate whatever conditions HiPS needs to function. The undead-and-construct-only feat Lifesense would also help. Oh, and the psionic power Touchsight.

And then there's just boosting your spot and listen checks. Guidance of the Avatar or Wild Instincts might help there.

[LudicSavant]

I'm DMing for a petal rogue/ranger who's got a ring of blinking that's becoming a bit of an irritation, a swordsage/telflammar shadowlord who's doing more damage than I know how to deal with, and a warlock who's not actually a problem. My question is how do I go about mitigating these various abilities without making it feel like I'm constantly falling back on the same tactics to take away their favorite toys.
On a side note: How would you guys go about counteracting the Darkstalker + Hide in Plain Sight combo?

- Think of high damage attacks kind of as you would high DC save or dies. The goal is to make it so that the enemy doesn't have an opportunity to use them in the first place.
- Darkstalker/Hide in Plain Sight is countered by Spot or Listen checks. Or all the things like Mindsight or Lifesense which couldn't care less about Darkstalker. Or simply using tactics that don't require you to be able to see your enemy.

[LTwerewolf]

Without using mindsight or lifesense (this may make the player feel you're targeting specifically him) you can always use glitterdust or faerie fire. After that, the bads will pay special attention to them because they know he's dangerous. Both are very low level spells, so the player can't really say the enemy is built around it.

[Darrin]

I'm DMing for a petal rogue/ranger who's got a ring of blinking that's becoming a bit of an irritation, a swordsage/telflammar shadowlord who's doing more damage than I know how to deal with, and a warlock who's not actually a problem. My question is how do I go about mitigating these various abilities without making it feel like I'm constantly falling back on the same tactics to take away their favorite toys.
On a side note: How would you guys go about counteracting the Darkstalker + Hide in Plain Sight combo?

Some ideas, mostly Battlefield Control (BFC) stuff:


Start with the basics: glitterdust, stinking cloud, sleet storm, Evard's black tentacles, ice storm, wall of thorns, solid fog, acid cloud, etc.

Read up on the Listen/Spot check rules (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a). Listening is actually easier than Spotting: DC 20 Listen check to pinpoint an invisible creature, and every creature gets a free check every round. So yes, you've got Darkstalker and an obscene Hide check... but one of those 20 goblins got lucky on his Listen roll, and oh look, he told all his friends.

Dispel magic is a thing. Even has an area option.

Faerie fire negates concealment (unless it's darkness). Torch Bug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel) is one of the cheaper methods, but there's also the Stormfire Ring (4000 GP, MIC) and the Revealing property (+1 enhancement, MIC).

Some other area effects that don't allow a save: hail of stone, vortex of teeth, earth reaver, and wall of sand (Spell Compendium).

Can they see through snow? Hit them with the Snowglobe of Murder, such as a small group of enemies that use obscuring snow + snowsight (Frostburn) to gank their opponents.

Actually, beyond the Snowglobe of Murder, any high-level Druid could make an interesting antagonist, wildshaped into an owl (flying, +8 racial bonus on listen checks), lighting them up with faerie fire, surround them with summon swarm (swarm damage + save vs. nausea), drop a wall of thorns around them then light it on fire, blinding spittle, ice storm, boreal wind, vortex of teeth, and so on. Just when the PCs think they've cornered this druid, feather token tree + tree stride and *poof*.

Breath weapons + Entangling Exhalation (Races of the Dragon). In fact, I'd probably introduce a secret order of Dragonfire Adepts (maybe worshipping a Dracolich of some sort) specifically to harass the PCs and take them down a couple pegs.

Glyph of warding, ghoul glyph, Glyph Seals (1000/4000 GP, MIC). Glyphs don't care if you're invisible/hiding. Smack 'em with no-save area effects. If you want to be really mean, Glyph Seal + aquatic escape (Complete Scoundrel).

[Lerondiel]

Flying creatures and creatures with plenty of DR or AC will slow down the swordsage but the warlock zaps away unhampered.

Similarly rust monsters, dissolving oozes, disarming/sundering/grappling threats will have the big hitters hesitate.

[Samalpetey]

Some ideas, mostly Battlefield Control (BFC) stuff:


Read up on the Listen/Spot check rules (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a). Listening is actually easier than Spotting: DC 20 Listen check to pinpoint an invisible creature, and every creature gets a free check every round. So yes, you've got Darkstalker and an obscene Hide check... but one of those 20 goblins got lucky on his Listen roll, and oh look, he told all his friends.


Not quite, that just lets them know there's something invisible within 30 ft of them, not where it is. You gotta roll 20 higher than the DC to actually pinpoint the invisible creature. Doesn't actually make a difference though since hidden and invisible are not the same thing

[Darrin]

Not quite, that just lets them know there's something invisible within 30 ft of them, not where it is. You gotta roll 20 higher than the DC to actually pinpoint the invisible creature. Doesn't actually make a difference though since hidden and invisible are not the same thing

The Listen DC to notice an invisible creature is nearby is 0. So yes, the Listen DC to pinpoint the square is +20, 0 + 20 = 20.

[Yukitsu]

The Listen DC to notice an invisible creature is nearby is 0. So yes, the Listen DC to pinpoint the square is +20, 0 + 20 = 20.

Can you provide a quote for that DC? Because the 0 DC check listed is people right beside you talking at normal volume.

[Darrin]

Can you provide a quote for that DC? Because the 0 DC check listed is people right beside you talking at normal volume.

"In combat or speaking" = DC 0. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature's location. (dndsrd.net/abilitiesAndConditions.html#invisibility)

[Yukitsu]

"In combat or speaking" = DC 0. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature's location. (dndsrd.net/abilitiesAndConditions.html#invisibility)

If you're playing a darkstalker, it's rather typical to move in and out of combat picking at the enemy as often as you can without committing to the fight. The listen check will work if that player has been lazy on his relocating but if otherwise the DM will probably find it somewhat ineffective since you need to notice him before he attacks, not after.