Shivering touch fix?

[gadren]

So, in my games I don't like to outright ban things, just adjust things to make them reasonable. Right now I'm looking at Shivering Touch.

As has been discussed to death in other, older threads, Shivering Touch has some issues:
1. It does ability damage but has a duration, which is... strange.
2. It is just too damn powerful for a level 3 spell.

I would like to keep it as a level 3 spell. Here are the changes that I think would make it appropriate, inspired by PF's changes to Ray of Enfeeblement:
1. The subject takes a 3d6 penalty to Dexterity for the duration of the spell.
2. The subject's Dexterity score cannot drop below 1.
3. A successful fortitude save reduces the penalty by half.
4. The penalty does not stack with itself. Use the highest penalty instead.

EDIT: Based on input so far, I think I'm going implement 1 and 4 for sure, and also give the player interested in taking the spell the option of either 2 or 3.

What do you guys think of those options? Fair?

[Masakan]

Unfortunately, that fix makes it so that the entire point of getting the spell is gone. It is too strong for what level it is, its basically a dragon killer.

Unfortunately that's one of the spells you just have to ban outright, its on the same level with ray of stupidity on the broken level. Situationally powerful, but absolutely broken in the situations its good in.

[PseudoPanda]

Well let's take Ray of Clumsiness as the alternative: deals a DEX penalty equal to 1d6+Cl (max +5) as a ray with no save. At level 5, shivering touch deals 2 points more dex penalty before offering a save for half and is a touch attack. Not only that but since Ray of Clumsiness is a transmutation spell without a fortitude save it can affect Constructs and Undead. There's no reason for a Wiz/Sorc to use shivering touch over RoC (the former is in spell compendium so I feel if Frostburn is in play so would it).

[Rebel7284]

Drop 3.
4 is implied with how the rules work (same source).

[Pluto!]

Due to the duration, the Lesser Shivering Touch spell and the general unreasonableness of its actual effect, I strongly suspect Shivering Touch was thought up as a penalty. Incidentally, just making it a penalty fixes both the wonky and the broken parts of it handily.

Edit: ie. drop 3; 2 and 4 are implied by 1.

[eggynack]

My first inclination would be to just add the provision that it can't reduce someone below one. That'd turn it from a kill spell into something of a broad and powerful debuff, and I doubt it's too broken in that role. Moreover, I suspect that was the original intent for the spell, hitting some very important stats without really taking the target's core functioning. The inherent nature of the spell is that it hits low dexterity targets for dexterity damage, so it's not like highly dexterity dependent targets have that much to fear.

[Morcleon]

I would like to keep it as a level 3 spell. Here are the changes that I think would make it appropriate, inspired by PF's changes to Ray of Enfeeblement:
1. The subject takes a 3d6 penalty to Dexterity for the duration of the spell.
2. The subject's Dexterity score cannot drop below 1.
3. A successful fortitude save reduces the penalty by half.
4. The penalty does not stack with itself. Use the highest penalty instead.

What do you guys think? Is it still a worthwhile level 3 spell?

With these changes, it is no longer worth a level 3 slot. It's a touch range spell that debuffs AC and Reflex saves without any chance of incapacitation.

I'd give it a range of Close (fluffed as a built-in spectral hand kind of thing), remove the fort save, and let the penalty stack. If you wanna spend a few rounds at close range removing someone's AC entirely. Honestly, even with my suggested change, it's still not really worth it due to #2.

Another possible change is to reduce the duration to 1/round per 4 levels, and reduce the Dex damage to 2d6.

Of course, even with Shivering Touch nerfed, you'd have to nerf Lesser Shivering Touch as well.

[gadren]

Hmm, based on this input, I think I'm going implement 1 and 4 for sure, and also give the player interested in taking the spell the option of either 2 or 3.

What do you think?

[ericgrau]

1,2 and 4. The purpose of the spell is now to drop the target's touch AC, reflex save and ranged attack bonus. And a -5 to those isn't too shabby for a 3rd level spell slot. Empowered ray of enfeeblement gives about the same or slightly more and it's very good. But it's at range. You might want to drop shivering touch to a level 2 spell because it's touch range. Plus anything worth debuffing with the spell is going to be hard to touch. Whereas a dragon for example that is easy to touch is already going to have a poor touch AC and reflex save while he doesn't make ranged attack rolls. You may as well hit him with whatever touch spell or reflex save spell you had in mind without debuffing him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Lets look at it's use. Its used against big opponents, who tend to have 10 or less Dexterity score, to easily drop the score to 0 and thus remove the target from battle (to be dispatched with Coup de Grace at a more convenient time). At 3d6 points, you have (more or less) 50/50 shot of dropping low Dex targets to 0. If you impiment the floor of 1, then instead of incapacitating, you remove, on average, -5 to Dex related things. The most important is -5 AC, -5 Reflex saves, -5 dex-based skills (hide, tumble and move silently to name a few), and initiative (if you some how hit the target in a suprise round and your DM is lenient on it applying to init after combat started).

Honestly, -5 penalties to a broad, but specific number of checks and AC is pretty darn useful. The range of course is an issue, since most things you want to drop their Dex can AoO you to next week when you cast it. Upping it to Close Range is probably appropriate. I'd say putting the Floor and upping the range to Close is sufficient.

[Crake]

Since there are already spells out there that give a penalty to dex (see ray of clumsiness) I think having a spell that actually did ability damage, as it should be, would be better.

3d6 is obviously stupidly huge, ray of stupidity does 1d4+1, which is generally seen as broken, but mainly because it's auto-win against animals and other super-low int creatures. Since there isnt a whole set of creatures with super low dex, I think it would be reasonable. Obviously get rid of the duration, since damage isn't meant to have a duration, that's just dumb.

[Andezzar]

Playing devil's advocate here:


1. It does ability damage but has a duration, which is... strange.Not strange at all
On a successful melee touch attack, you instantly suck the heat from the target’s body, rendering it numb.

Your successful melee touch attack delivers a bitter chill to the target, causing it to shiver uncontrollably for the duration of the spell.Without a duration the underlined effects would persists indefinitely.


2. It is just too damn powerful for a level 3 spell.Do you nerf the other overpowered 3rd level spells as well? Just looking in the PHB, Stinking Cloud, Hold Person, Fly and Gaseous form can defeat encounters at least as effectively as shivering touch.


1. The subject takes a 3d6 penalty to Dexterity for the duration of the spell.
2. The subject's Dexterity score cannot drop below 1.Using both would remove the main point of Shivering Touch. A numerical debuff is not that great, especially when a creature does not rely on that ability. Using only 1 does not make much of a difference, a coup de grâce can be delivered anyways.


3. A successful fortitude save reduces the penalty by half.It already requires the caster to overcome SR, and taking out a target is not guaranteed on a successful cast, contrary to hold person.
Only with metamagic does the the spell become a guaranteed no save just lose spell. Once metamagic is involved you cannot compare the spell to a 3rd level spell, you must compare it to spells of the level of the spell slot it now requires. A maximized empowered shivering touch is equivalent of an 8th level spell, and can at bes shut down one creature with DEX 24 or less. I'm pretty sure you can find more powerful 8th level spells.

Shivering touch as a dragon killer spell has a couple of problem (some of them can be remedied):
Range touch - you have to get in range first (so fly might be required). Does the wizard really want to be in range of a full attack from a dragon?
SR - older dragons have a pretty substantial SR.
DEX 10 - is that really mandatory for dragons? As soon as making the dragon helpless is no longer guaranteed (and you need maximize for that even with standard DEX) the spell becomes a lot less appealing. Hold Monster BTW is a 5th level spell, compared to a maximized Shivering Touch which requires a 6th level spell slot.

[gadren]

Playing devil's advocate here:

Not strange at all
Without a duration the underlined effects would persists indefinitely.
Right, which is why I'm not saying I should get rid of the duration. Ability damage usually doesn't have a duration (in fact, I can't think of any other spell where it does?), it's something a char has to heal. When these types of spells have durations it has been for a penalty in any other case.

I mean, I guess just because no other spell does it isn't a reason why this one can't. It just strikes as odd as if the HP damage from a Lightning Bolt had a duration.


Do you nerf the other overpowered 3rd level spells as well? Just looking in the PHB, Stinking Cloud, Hold Person, Fly and Gaseous form can defeat encounters at least as effectively as shivering touch.
Stinking Cloud and Hold Person allow saving throws, which a target is much more likely to make than to be missed by a touch attack. Also, a touch spell with no save is as likely to work at low level as high level, while using low level save-req spells against higher level targets is less likely to work.
I've never had Fly or Gaseous Form defeat an encounter in 20 years. They're a good tactical advantage, but NOT on the same level as Shivering Touch.


Using both would remove the main point of Shivering Touch. A numerical debuff is not that great, especially when a creature does not rely on that ability. A -5 to dex and reflex means attack rolls against the target are 25% more likely to hit and the target is 25% more likely to fail a reflex save, plus other fringe benefits. For a 3rd level spell that's pretty good.
Using only 1 does not make much of a difference, a coup de grâce can be delivered anyways. I'm having a hard time understanding what you are saying here. Using only 1 what?


It already requires the caster to overcome SR[quote] Which most enemies at level 5 and 6 don't have.
[quote] and taking out a target is not guaranteed on a successful cast, contrary to hold person. Right, but again see my point about saves vs. touch attacks. And Hold Person doesn't guarantee taking out the target, since the target of Hold Person gets a new save each time its turn comes up, and coup de grace is a full-round action. Meaning if it fails its save, it's still going to get at least one more before you can CDG it.

Only with metamagic does the the spell become a guaranteed no save just lose spell. Once metamagic is involved you cannot compare the spell to a 3rd level spell, you must compare it to spells of the level of the spell slot it now requires. A maximized empowered shivering touch is equivalent of an 8th level spell and can at bes shut down one creature with DEX 24 or less. I'm pretty sure you can find more powerful 8th level spells. Probably, but I'm not really interested in comparing it to 8th level spells, I'm comparing it to other 3rd level spells. (And there are a lot of ways to get that metamagic level mod down.)


Shivering touch as a dragon killer spell has a couple of problem (some of them can be remedied):
Range touch - you have to get in range first (so fly might be required). Does the wizard really want to be in range of a full attack from a dragon?
SR - older dragons have a pretty substantial SR.
DEX 10 - is that really mandatory for dragons? As soon as making the dragon helpless is no longer guaranteed (and you need maximize for that even with standard DEX) the spell becomes a lot less appealing. Hold Monster BTW is a 5th level spell, compared to a maximized Shivering Touch which requires a 6th level spell slot.

Interestingly enough, it ISN'T a dragon killer spell. 0 Dex imposes the paralysis effect, but all dragons are immune to paralysis. So all ST does is debuff their AC and reflex, for the most part.
Also, people love to bring up how hard it supposedly is to make a melee touch attack as a cast, but there are plenty of ways to make melee touches from range, such as Spectral Hand.

I'm not looking to debuff the spell just because it would allow the caster to easily end some encounters. I'm looking to debuff because if he uses it, I'm using it. Half of the party could be easily taken out by enemies casting the spell, more than that if my dice are hot. It then becomes a game of "who can roll the highest initiative?", and I'd prefer to avoid that until their levels are in the double digits, at least.

[Crake]

Interestingly enough, it ISN'T a dragon killer spell. 0 Dex imposes the paralysis effect, but all dragons are immune to paralysis. So all ST does is debuff their AC and reflex, for the most part.

Nowhere does it say that 0 dex induces paralysis. Paralysis gives a creature an effective dex score of 0, but not the other way around. 0 Dex simply means "the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)" No mention of paralysis whatsoever, so dragon immunity to paralysis does not help here at all.

[gadren]

Nowhere does it say that 0 dex induces paralysis. Paralysis gives a creature an effective dex score of 0, but not the other way around. 0 Dex simply means "the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless." No mention of paralysis whatsoever, so dragon immunity to paralysis does not help here at all.

I got it from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm
"A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed."

[Crake]

I got it from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm
"A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed."

I believe rules precedence puts the "Ability score loss" section from special abilities at a higher place than "ability damaged" in the condition summary section.

Edit: I put the link to the rule section in my previous post

[gadren]

I believe rules precedence puts the "Ability score loss" section from special abilities at a higher place than "ability damaged" in the condition summary section.

Edit: I put the link to the rule section in my previous post

I'm not sure why it has precedence, but we're getting off topic, so I'll just concede your point, which shows that Shivering Touch is just that powerful, and is one reason why I'd like to re-balance it.

[eggynack]

I'm not looking to debuff the spell just because it would allow the caster to easily end some encounters. I'm looking to debuff because if he uses it, I'm using it. Half of the party could be easily taken out by enemies casting the spell, more than that if my dice are hot. It then becomes a game of "who can roll the highest initiative?", and I'd prefer to avoid that until their levels are in the double digits, at least.
But that factor would go away with nothing more than removing the ability to reduce below one. Non-stacking just feels unnecessary, because the way I figure it, if you're willing to spend two rounds and two third level spells to knock an enemy's dexterity to one, then you deserve that effect, and that goes for enemies too. You don't even have to use that tactic yourself if the party does, because it's not so great a tactic that enemies would really need to copy it. I guess the spell would be more annoying when put on PC's than monsters, because the party would need to take time to fix the problem, but that's just a general advantage that monsters have.

[Andezzar]

Right, which is why I'm not saying I should get rid of the duration. Ability damage usually doesn't have a duration (in fact, I can't think of any other spell where it does?), it's something a char has to heal. When these types of spells have durations it has been for a penalty in any other case.

I mean, I guess just because no other spell does it isn't a reason why this one can't. It just strikes as odd as if the HP damage from a Lightning Bolt had a duration.The damage does not have a duration, the spell has, which includes the numbness/shivering.


Stinking Cloud and Hold Person allow saving throws, which a target is much more likely to make than to be missed by a touch attack. Also, a touch spell with no save is as likely to work at low level as high level, while using low level save-req spells against higher level targets is less likely to work.That pretty much depends on how you build a character.


I've never had Fly or Gaseous Form defeat an encounter in 20 years. They're a good tactical advantage, but NOT on the same level as Shivering Touch.So you never had pit traps, lava lakes, locked and trapped doors in 20 years?


A -5 to dex and reflex means attack rolls against the target are 25% more likely to hit and the target is 25% more likely to fail a reflex save, plus other fringe benefits.Those numbers are not necessarily right. The relative increase in effectiveness very much depends on the initial effectiveness. For a 3rd level spell that's pretty good.


I'm having a hard time understanding what you are saying here. Using only 1 what?Using only houserule 1 instead of 1 and 2 at the same time.


Right, but again see my point about saves vs. touch attacks. And Hold Person doesn't guarantee taking out the target, since the target of Hold Person gets a new save each time its turn comes up, and coup de grace is a full-round action. Meaning if it fails its save, it's still going to get at least one more before you can CDG it.Only if the wizard is alone or does not have a way to get an extra standard action.

Probably, but I'm not really interested in comparing it to 8th level spells, I'm comparing it to other 3rd level spells.Then you are comparing apples and oranges.


(And there are a lot of ways to get that metamagic level mod down.)And that is a problem with metamagic reducers, not shivering touch.


Interestingly enough, it ISN'T a dragon killer spell. 0 Dex imposes the paralysis effect, but all dragons are immune to paralysis. So all ST does is debuff their AC and reflex, for the most part.No, it imposes DEX 0 if the damage is high enough, not paralysis.
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.Dragons are not immune to the helpless condition. Helplessness may be induced by paralysis, but it can also be caused by other things.

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier).


Also, people love to bring up how hard it supposedly is to make a melee touch attack as a cast, but there are plenty of ways to make melee touches from range, such as Spectral Hand.True but that requires the expenditure of other resources. All you are saying is if an encounter is handled correctly the party will likely defeat the encounter.


I'm not looking to debuff the spell just because it would allow the caster to easily end some encounters. I'm looking to debuff because if he uses it, I'm using it. Half of the party could be easily taken out by enemies casting the spell, more than that if my dice are hot. It then becomes a game of "who can roll the highest initiative?", and I'd prefer to avoid that until their levels are in the double digits, at least.Well concealment, cover and miss chances are your/the party's friend at low levels, (lesser) restoration is always good to have, and then there is strength in numbers. A party of 4-6 have almost always easily overcome a single CR appropriate BBEG. Spell Immunity comes online at level 7 and even works against a twinned fell drain reach spell maximized empowered Shivering Touch. The [cold] subtype also makes this spell useless, though gaining that subtype is probably easier for monsters than the PCs.

Toning the damage down a bit probably wouldn't be a bad idea though.

[gadren]

The damage does not have a duration, the spell has, which includes the numbness/shivering.
Are you saying the dex damage for shivering touch is not related to the duration of the spell?


That pretty much depends on how you build a character.
Well obviously, but the fact remains it is a lot easier to boost attack rolls than save DCs.


So you never had pit traps, lava lakes, locked and trapped doors in 20 years?
I have. But casting Fly six times to get each party member over the lava lake doesn't really compare to taking a tough enemy down with one 3rd level spell.


Those numbers are not necessarily right. The relative increase in effectiveness very much depends on the initial effectiveness. For a 3rd level spell that's pretty good.
You have a 5% chance to roll a given number on a d20. A modifier of +/- 5 is a 25% difference.


Using only houserule 1 instead of 1 and 2 at the same time.
Oh, got ya. Still not sure I follow the point you were trying to make.


Only if the wizard is alone or does not have a way to get an extra standard action.
Sorry, I missed that it also takes a full-round action for the target to make a new saving throw.
Still, in practice I've found this harder to set up than in theory. The caster and the CDGer need to coordinate so the caster goes first in initiative, the CDGer goes second, and the target goes third in the initiative order. This often means holding an action to align initiatives, giving the target more time to do damage. Also, if the target moves every round, then the CDGer still will have to wait a round because he'll have to move next to the target and then wait til next round to start doing his CDG which will resolve the round after that.


Then you are comparing apples and oranges.
Comparing a level 3 spell to other level 3 spells to determine how strong a level 3 spell should be is not apples and oranges. Its apples and apples.


And that is a problem with metamagic reducers, not shivering touch. Maybe. I still think comparing a level 3 spell to other level 3 spells to determine how powerful it should be makes more sense than comparing a level 3 spell with two metamagic feats to level 8 spells.


No, it imposes DEX 0 if the damage is high enough, not paralysis. Dragons are not immune to the helpless condition. Helplessness may be induced by paralysis, but it can also be caused by other things. Eh, the rules seem to contradict on this point, but I'll concede the point if it makes you happy.


True but that requires the expenditure of other resources. All you are saying is if an encounter is handled correctly the party will likely defeat the encounter. Ok.


Well concealment, cover and miss chances are your/the party's friend at low levels, (lesser) restoration is always good to have, and then there is strength in numbers. A party of 4-6 have almost always easily overcome a single CR appropriate BBEG. Spell Immunity comes online at level 7 and even works against a twinned fell drain reach spell maximized empowered Shivering Touch. The [cold] subtype also makes this spell useless, though gaining that subtype is probably easier for monsters than the PCs. I'm more prone to sending groups at them than single high-level monsters. When they're level 7 that means they could have three shivering touches coming at them per round in an EL equal to the party level.


Toning the damage down a bit probably wouldn't be a bad idea though.
Maybe.

[Fouredged Sword]

Are you saying the dex damage for shivering touch is not related to the duration of the spell?


Does the fire damage from a wall of fire disappear when the wall disappears? It may not be the intent of the spell, but the game mechanics are fairly clear. Damage persists after a spells duration ends. Penalties do not. Shivvering touch should at least be states to be a penalty. If you still want to maintain the paralysis at 0 dex, add that in as a clause "If this spell causes a dex penalty higher than the target's dex, the target is paralyzed."

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is how I nerf Shivering Touch:

-Shivering Touch is now treated as a Dex penalty instead of Dex damage and cannot reduce a creature's Dex below 1. The duration is changed to 1 min./level, and a fortitude save halves the penalty

So, pretty close to the OP's version. I do buff the duration to min/level like other stat penalty spells to make up for some of the nerfing. I guess you could instead make it close ranged, but that removes the whole "touch" aspect of the spell.

My version is still a fine spell for level 3. Not the most obvious best choice, but it's still pretty good. 3d6 or half of 3d6 will still cause a severe penalty to a foe and utterly wreck any dex-based, AoO, or archer character, among others. Even if they save.
Also, I thought it was blatantly obvious because that's not how same-source penalties work!, but no. It does not stack with itself, nor should it. Ever.