Power Attack, E6, and Diversity

[Xervous]

Recently I got into a discussion with a friend on the diversification of combat styles for E6 and variants thereof. In the course of things we repeatedly came back to power attack, how it heavily favors THF setups on top of what they already have going for them, and how it's a no brainer for anyone to take if their weapons qualify for it... all sorts of thoughts and questions about power attack.

It will probably go across better if these questions are all presented cleanly and outside of a big ol' wall of text.



What sort of implementation would be required for power attack to not overly favor THF? -- Is THF being good on its own part of this apparent favoritism?
Should power attack function for any melee weapon?
Should power attack even be a feat that you opt to choose rather than a built in function of combat if everyone and their mom has every reason to take it if they're even going to be thinking about melee-ing it up?
Should, in the interest of simplifying the game and removing build-staple choices that lead to low build diversity, power attack be removed from a ruleset for that reason?
Does power attack's RAW implementation (you select the penalty/reward) come across as metagamey and immersion breaking?


Might be more thoughts but they're not coming to mind right now, laws of the real universe mandating sleep unlike other places...

[Nifft]

I feel like Power Attack is supposed to favor two-handed weapons, just like Sneak Attack favors two-weapon fighting.

The big difference is that Power Attack is a feat, while Sneak Attack is a class feature.

If you use the generic classes, then Sneak Attack becomes a feat, and everything is perfect* forever.


*) Your game balance may vary. Past perfection is not a guarantee of future results. Consult with your DM before using. This offer not valid in the Outlands.

[Stegyre]

To me, both Power Attack and Combat Expertise reflect part of what BAB is: not just something that determines how often you hit, but how well you hit, and how adept you may be at parrying others' blows, etc. I wouldn't charge feats for either one.

Overall, that perhaps hurts the balance you are concerned about (we've removed a feat tax from THF, but the superiority of THF arises from other game decisions (like DR) that cannot be readily changed, imo. (They can be changed, but you probably need to tweak a lot of other things, as well.)

[Warlocknthewind]

I feel like any being able to swing something to harm another thing can choose to abandon accuracy for swinging power. I could site several IRL examples. I reflect this in my game by making it a combat maneuver like bull rush or trip. I even go so far as to allow a -1 penalty with +0 BAB.
To balance this more realized reflection, using it with a two handed weapon grants a +.5 bonus to damage just like the generic strength bonus to damage.
Prestige classes with JUST PA as a prerequisite on the feat chain need have a feat with PA as a prerequisite to qualify to reflect their focus on the swinging' harder thing. This consequently leads to a higher number of Blackguards plaguing my world.
On combat expertise; total defense is a thing, and attacking in a way that makes you harder to hit isn't something anybody can do, and does requires rapid calculation to achieve, thus the 13 Int Prereq.

[marphod]

What sort of implementation would be required for power attack to not overly favor THF? -- Is THF being good on its own part of this apparent favoritism?
Should power attack function for any melee weapon?
Should power attack even be a feat that you opt to choose rather than a built in function of combat if everyone and their mom has every reason to take it if they're even going to be thinking about melee-ing it up?
Should, in the interest of simplifying the game and removing build-staple choices that lead to low build diversity, power attack be removed from a ruleset for that reason?
Does power attack's RAW implementation (you select the penalty/reward) come across as metagamey and immersion breaking?



Mu. This question cannot really be answered. Why? Because the (effective) 3 types of melee combat are not equal. Sword and Board favors a defensive strategy, but it is nigh impossible to have defensive abilities scale at the same rate as offensive abilities. Having Power Attack affect Two Weapon Fighting in the same proportion is difficult with the current mechanics, because of the increased penalties for that fighting format. Power Attack inherently favors 2 handed fighting by high-strength characters.
No. High-Strength combat styles should not feel like High-Agility combat styles.
I've seen plenty of 10-str high-dex melee builds that ignore Power Attack. So, not by default. Maybe it should be a default of 2 handed weapons and non-finessable one handed.
I plan on removing it from my houserules. Not figured out how to replace it, though.
... Immersion, in DnD? As opposed to the meta-gamey aspects of casting slots, hit points, the Dodge feat, non-fractional BAB and Saving throws, etc.? Not more than any other aspect of the game.

[Mendicant]

Power Attack isn't really the problem when it comes to low build diversity; it's rather the lack of good alternatives. I go back and forth on making PA an automatic option available without a feat, but I'm more interested in collapsing and improving other feat trees so that they scale properly.

[Gnorman]

I'm generally in favor of eliminating all of the "combat mode" feats, and just making them default options. The game does not break if you allow people to have two weapons without taking a feat. The game does not break if you let people use their Dexterity to determine their attack bonus (heck, maybe even damage) without taking a feat. The game does not break if you let archers use Ranged Power Attack.

Get rid of Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc. Just make the basic rule "hey you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity to attack and damage rolls, whichever is higher." Some people will cry foul because if you make them interchangeable, Dexterity is generally superior since adding to Armor Class and Reflex saves is preferable than weight limits, but if you leave in the whole 1.5x Strength bonus for using two-handed weapons, you'll still probably see characters investing in Strength regardless.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here's what I've done for games I run:

Power Attack is worth spending a feat on, so leave it as a feat tax.
Weapon Finesse is no longer a feat tax, anyone can use Dex for attacks with weapons it could normally be applied to. Most classes that benefit from it can't even take it until 3rd+ level due to BAB.
Brutal Throw (CV, Str to thrown weapon attacks) gets the same treatment as Weapon Finesse, so that both Str and Dex characers get something out of this change, especially considering the next one.
Power Attack has an additional limitation, your penalty to hit when using it cannot exceed your Str bonus or your BAB, whichever is lower. This generally keeps things like Wraithstrike and Shock Trooper in check, while making larger foes/characters and Barbarians more dangerous by comparison.

That last one probably won't have much impact in E6, but games that get into the higher levels won't see PCs one-shotting opponents (or opponents one-shotting PCs). Also note that I'm fairly hard on spellcasters in general, as opponents who are smart enough to know how dangerous magic is tend to prepare and act accordingly.

[SkipSandwich]

I use a house rule that Str is weapon damage and parry defense against melee attacks whereas Dex is ALL attack rolls plus dodge defense against ranged attacks. Power Attack is Str->Atk substitution and Weapon Finesse sacrifices your Str->Dmg in favor of Dex->Parry + 1d4
Sneak Attack per point of Dex bonus.

2-handed wepaons gain 1.5x Str to atk with power attack, 1-handed gain 1x Str and Light gain 1/2th Str to atk

Shields allow you to use the better of your dodge or parry defense against both ranged AND melee attacks in addition to providing a shield bonus to AC.

THF is best against high-AC foes since they wind up with the most bonus to ATK, but they cannot afford to ignore DEX or else they wind up a pincushion

Sword and Board can go full-STR w/Power Attack OR full-DEX w/Finesse depending on weapon choice and do equally well, or even just have balanced stats

TWF deals the most raw damage with the lowest accuracy, and have decent defenses against both ranged and melee. It works decently well so long as the player takes advantage of available work-arounds to deal with precision-immune foes.