Writing Prophecy Help/Challenge

[griffinpup]

So I'm DMing a campaign (3.5 if that matters) and I'm incorporating a prophecy to insure some friendly competition in my group. And just so you know, I tend to DM for the group's enjoyment, and am therefore... liberal with the rules when required. Basically, yes, this LG Deity is petty, and my pantheon is making fun of him. It's silly, but quite entertaining to me.

But onto the details of my dilemma. So there exists a fairly complex prophecy in my world that some of my players know about, but none of them know the exact wording yet. The problem is, I've been busy, and I haven't written the exact wording of the prophecy yet. And I've recently attempted, but frankly, I'm bad at it. Putrid. Poor. Poop. I need help.

Here's the situation. I have a party of 4, a N human druid with a ton of pets, a N Eladrin Warlock, a N Eladrin wizard, and a LG Dragonborn (house-ruled in, without most the normal racial traits) Paladin. The deity the paladin serves is the one who made the prophecy. Unfortunately, he made this prophecy centuries ago, and the other gods are starting to make fun of him for it not coming true yet. So he's commanded the Paladin to rectify this situation. His job is to convince the warlock or wizard in his party to fulfill all portions of the prophecy, including the becoming evil part, while still maintaining his Paladin's Code. The warlock's family, all devout worshippers of the Raven Queen, are trying to force the Warlock into becoming evil as well. The druid has a marked interest in stopping the decimation of the world, and is therefore wanting to stop the prophecy from being fulfilled by anyone. There are other groups with other incentives as well, but I've rambled enough for the first post I think.

The main points of the prophecy are this:
Someone chosen by fate will be born to the ancient bloodlines of the Eladrin nobility
Those same bloodlines will be restored to rule the world
This person, if he chooses evil, will achieve great power at a great cost
At his coming, the world will be decimated and then rebuilt
2 gods will then control the material plane (The Raven Queen & Bahumet)
Any other applicable signs or traits of who this person's supposed to be. (Wielder of magic, brilliant, talented, whatever floats your boat)
additional requirements to be completed (not decided yet. Be as ingenious or obscure as you want)
Any other hints to how exactly the world will be decimated or what powers the fulfiller of the prophecy gets

So what strategies do you guys employ in writing prophecies? Better yet, anyone want to try their hand at this one? I would love several written versions of this prophecy, the more the better. I'd get to use all of them, because I'd present every iteration of the prophecy to them. After all, prophecies get muddled over time. Anyone willing to help me out? Also, this is pretty much my first real post, so be nice to me. I'm a newbie. :)

[BowStreetRunner]

I would love several written versions of this prophecy, the more the better. I'd get to use all of them, because I'd present every iteration of the prophecy to them.

I have used prophecies in my games before and they turned out pretty well. I don't know if I will have any time to try to convert yours in to prose or poetic verse, but I like your idea of using more than one version. In my campaign there were in fact multiple prophecies dealing with the same subject, but none of them were 'complete'. For instance, where you mention the Raven Queen and Bahumet you might have one prophecy that alludes to them through metaphor, another that identifies them by name, and a third that does not even mention their role. Each of the prophecies should come from a different source - one might have been an elderly priest of this deity, another a mad hermit living in a cavern that turned out to contain an ancient relic of this deity, and the third an Eladrin wizard who specialized in divination and spent most of her life seeking foreknowledge of the fate of her kind. Make it so that any one prophecy is too vague and ambiguous to be much use but with the second and even better the third the players can start to really piece things together.

Good luck.

[Red Fel]

So what strategies do you guys employ in writing prophecies? Better yet, anyone want to try their hand at this one? I would love several written versions of this prophecy, the more the better. I'd get to use all of them, because I'd present every iteration of the prophecy to them. After all, prophecies get muddled over time. Anyone willing to help me out? Also, this is pretty much my first real post, so be nice to me. I'm a newbie. :)

Here's the thing. The best prophecies in literature are the ones which are so vague that the heroes don't recognize them having come true until after the fact. This creates dramatic tension; if they were obvious, it would allow the heroes to bypass obstacles and just check off (Chekhov?) a list of items to win at life.

Prophecies in tabletop games should work the same way, for the same reason, plus one more: You can't control player actions. If you, as DM, set out a prophecy that says "Character A shall do X at Y time; Character B shall never Z," you're assuming (1) that Character A will still be in the campaign when Y comes around, and not be dead or retired; (2) that Character A's player wants to do X; and (3) that Character B's player doesn't want to do Z. These are assumptions that you cannot guarantee, and if the players fail to do what you expect them to, your entire prophecy is shot. It loses any credibility, and any attempts by you to salvage the situation look cheap and forced. Vague is better.

And then we get to your idea of having this deity "encourage" his Paladin to do things. This reads horribly. Let's go through the prophecy itself to see why. "Someone chosen by fate will be born to the ancient bloodlines of the Eladrin nobility": I'm guessing this straight-up refers to the Warlock and/or Wizard, so fine. "Those same bloodlines will be restored to rule the world": So Bahamut wants this Paladin to put someone in charge of the entire world? That's risky. "This person, if he chooses evil, will achieve great power at a great cost": Stop. Bahamut would not, under any circumstances, command a Paladin to make a person Evil and then give them control of the world. There are so many things wrong with that I couldn't even begin to list them all, but I'll try. Bahamut hates Evil and encourages Good. He would never make someone non-Evil become Evil. Bahamut hates Evil. He would never put someone Evil in charge of the world, not even for possible Good down the road. Bahamut likes Paladins. He would never force a Paladin to commit an act that is abominable to Paladins everywhere. Paladins are strongly anti-Evil. No Paladin would adventure with Evil for an extended period (according to RAW, even though I find that rule stupid); certainly no Paladin would make someone choose Evil. "At his coming, the world will be decimated and then rebuilt": So, wait, a Good god wants a non-Evil person to become Evil so that the world can be destroyed? That's thoroughly messed up. "2 gods will then control the material plane (The Raven Queen & Bahumet)": So, the outcome of this is that the rest of the pantheon will be more or less eliminated? That's the absolute capital of messed up. No LG deity would be in favor of so utterly demolishing the status quo. And no other deity would allow this to come to pass; you're basically making an enemy of every deity except these two. You honestly think they wouldn't find a way to prevent this?
And that, in essence, is the biggest problem I have with your prophecy. It not only demands that the PCs do something they might not (and in the case of the Paladin, should not) want to do; it requires that the NPCs act either completely out of character or like total idiots.

In my games, we've generally avoided prophecies altogether. At best, we got "visions" of where things or people were or needed to go; whether we got the things or got to the places was entirely up to us. (Examples: Our CG Drow learning where in the Underdark her family armor was being kept; our party being told of a village in need; the PC handling the Lance being told of a Dragon Graveyard where an ancient Evil was stirring.) How we conducted ourselves - or whether the party was even intact when we got where we got, if we got there at all - was totally in our hands.

So let's bring it back to your prophecy. It sounds like you have several goals here. Force one of the PCs to make a choice between Good and Evil. Have the Paladin be instrumental in that choice. Have a divine conflict that causes the world to erupt in war and leaves only two gods standing at the end.
One of these things (the third one) is entirely in your hands. You can even have the PCs play a major role in it. And best of all, there are ways to make it general enough so that it doesn't force the PCs in any particular direction. Let me give you an example.

One born eternally, of a line long and noble, shall come to wield an unknown power. One born of the light shall be a guide on the path between the light and the darkness. The choice will echo throughout eternity.

Simple, vague, allows for player decisionmaking. One born eternally, that can easily refer to an Elan. Unknown power, that can be a Warlock or Wizard. (Piece of advice, let them choose; find a way to sneak an item into their loot that is desirable to both, and whoever takes it marks himself as the subject of prophecy.) Born of the light, that's a Dragonborn Paladin twice-over. Be a guide, that means instrumental in the decision. The choice - because it's the PC's choice, not yours - can be Good or Evil, but either way it will lead to conflict. (Remember that sneaky item? Make it a big Maguffin in the plot.) Echo throughout eternity, that means the decision will lead to major outcomes (read: war between Good and Evil, two gods left standing).

See? Requires actions from nobody, can easily be interpreted retroactively.

[griffinpup]

Snip
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I guess you missed this???

And just so you know, I tend to DM for the group's enjoyment, and am therefore... liberal with the rules when required. Basically, yes, this LG Deity is petty, and my pantheon is making fun of him. It's silly, but quite entertaining to me.

And this?

The deity the paladin serves is the one who made the prophecy. Unfortunately, he made this prophecy centuries ago, and the other gods are starting to make fun of him for it not coming true yet.
Don't worry, I'm all adequately awed at your phenomenal grasp of deity politics and alignment interpretation. I don't know who your "Bahumet" is you're talking about, but just to make it clear, MY Bahumet seems to act differently. The fact as, according to RAW, Bahumet would never do something so ridiculous as this. He wouldn't be petty, would value the greater good exclusively, and would never use his palidans to assuage his wounded pride. BORING. My Bahumet's awesome. And petty. And that's on purpose. So yeah, there's plenty of reasons why RAW Bahumet would never do such a thing, but ehh, I've always considered RAW as more of guidelines anyways. Especially when we get into the more flavorful aspects of how the world works. So please allow me to respond to your concerns. But before I do, I'm serious. you're completely right that RAW Bahumet would never do such a thing. You most certainly know rules better then me, I guarantee it.

Here's the thing. The best prophecies in literature are the ones which are so vague that the heroes don't recognize them having come true until after the fact. This creates dramatic tension; if they were obvious, it would allow the heroes to bypass obstacles and just check off (Chekhov?) a list of items to win at life.

Agreed. I certainly won't want to make a grocery list. But nor do I want it to be some blabber that only applies after everything is said and done. Some indecipherable script isn't useful, or fun. A reasonably vague prophecy that hints at some major events is what I'm really looking for. Preferably so masterfully written that they can decipher small portions as they go along as well.


Prophecies in tabletop games should work the same way, for the same reason, plus one more: You can't control player actions. If you, as DM, set out a prophecy that says "Character A shall do X at Y time; Character B shall never Z," you're assuming (1) that Character A will still be in the campaign when Y comes around, and not be dead or retired; (2) that Character A's player wants to do X; and (3) that Character B's player doesn't want to do Z. These are assumptions that you cannot guarantee, and if the players fail to do what you expect them to, your entire prophecy is shot. It loses any credibility, and any attempts by you to salvage the situation look cheap and forced. Vague is better.

Agreed. Which is why a prophecy should never ever explicitly refer to a single person. Mine certainly won't. My characters don't have to fulfill the prophecy. Other stuff just wants them too.
And let's break up the next section into parts.


"Someone chosen by fate will be born to the ancient bloodlines of the Eladrin nobility": I'm guessing this straight-up refers to the Warlock and/or Wizard, so fine.
But it doesn't. That's the point. It refers to every and any person with Eladrin blood in them. My players certainly aren't the only ones who can try to fulfill the prophecy. They can choose to stop it, run away from it, try to fulfill it themselves, ignore it and go burn down a manor, go climb trees, whatever. The prophecy I'm trying to build will hopefully never single individuals out as the only ones to fulfill it.


"Those same bloodlines will be restored to rule the world": So Bahamut wants this Paladin to put someone in charge of the entire world? That's risky.
Bahumet doesn't want his Paladin to put someone in charge of the world. My Bahumet wants his prophecy fulfilled so the other god's get off his back. That the world powers will shift isn't a big deal to my DM-fiat version of the deity commonly referred to as Bahumet.


"This person, if he chooses evil, will achieve great power at a great cost": Stop. Bahamut would not, under any circumstances, command a Paladin to make a person Evil and then give them control of the world.
Well first, he isn't necessarily going to be the one ruling the world. I meant that Eladrin nobility would again rise to power. And before you jump down my throat for some silliness about Eladrin never ruling the material plane in RAW, yay for my world not being RAW!!!




Bahamut hates Evil and encourages Good. He would never make someone non-Evil become Evil.
... First of all, blah blah blah rant about my Bahumet being different then your Bahumet.
Bahamut hates Evil. He would never put someone Evil in charge of the world, not even for possible Good down the road.
Okay, that seems ridiculous. The assumption that Bahumet would NEVER, EVER, allow Evil any amount of power for any amount good is facetious. Certainly, if he subscribes to a Utilitarian viewpoint of action, if the greatest good he can do is to allow some form of evil, then he's morally obligated to take that course of action.
Bahamut likes Paladins. He would never force a Paladin to commit an act that is abominable to Paladins everywhere.
Acting on personal feelings to favor a specific individual, regardless of the outcome seems definitionally not LG. But meh, that's just my opinion
Paladins are strongly anti-Evil. No Paladin would adventure with Evil for an extended period (according to RAW, even though I find that rule stupid); certainly no Paladin would make someone choose Evil.
My Paladin doesn't have Psyonics. He can't make someone choose Evil.
\"At his coming, the world will be decimated and then rebuilt": So, wait, a Good god wants a non-Evil person to become Evil so that the world can be destroyed? That's thoroughly messed up.
It'll be rebuilt! Remember, my version of Griff-Bahumet is thoroughly petty. So yeah, if it saves his pride, he can handle a little bit of destruction.
"2 gods will then control the material plane (The Raven Queen & Bahumet)": So, the outcome of this is that the rest of the pantheon will be more or less eliminated? That's the absolute capital of messed up. No LG deity would be in favor of so utterly demolishing the status quo.
Ooh, cool right? Thats actually a very good point. I suppose I should explain that in the world we're playing in, there's plenty of planes. Dozens, even hundreds, all different. So the pantheon doesn't get eliminated. Their dominion doesn't even diminish all that much.
And no other deity would allow this to come to pass; you're basically making an enemy of every deity except these two. You honestly think they wouldn't find a way to prevent this?
Well let's look at it from the perspective of all the other gods in the diverse pantheon. Mr. Bahumet makes this completely ballsy prophecy about him getting the material plane. Which would be understandingly unnerving, except it never happens. After century, and century, and century, and century... So they start making fun of him. "All talk and no bark" stuff like that. Though I should mention, that of course the other gods, once they realize that it might actually come to pass, will start rolling out. I suppose that I should mention that something is blocking direct divine interference in the character's world right now as well, so God's can only act through pawns to change the world, or keep status quo. Moreover, the world's in a pretty rough strait right now, and I wouldn't doubt that most gods are giving it up as lost.
And that, in essence, is the biggest problem I have with your prophecy. It not only demands that the PCs do something they might not (and in the case of the Paladin, should not) want to do; it requires that the NPCs act either completely out of character or like total idiots.
I disagree on two parts. My prophecy does not such thing. First I force no character's hand. They're all completely willing to do whatever they want to do or not. I'm not forcing them to do anything. Secondly, the NPC's aren't acting out of character the way I see it. You certainly don't have enough knowledge of the whole game to make that call regardless. So I appreciate your feedback, but must respectfully disagree.
In my games, we've generally avoided prophecies altogether. At best, we got "visions" of where things or people were or needed to go; whether we got the things or got to the places was entirely up to us. (Examples: Our CG Drow learning where in the Underdark her family armor was being kept; our party being told of a village in need; the PC handling the Lance being told of a Dragon Graveyard where an ancient Evil was stirring.) How we conducted ourselves - or whether the party was even intact when we got where we got, if we got there at all - was totally in our hands.
I agree. The decisions are totally up to them. I suppose that I should specifically mention the Paladin here too. He was never forced by not-Bahumet to do anything, it was presented as a favor. Moreover, I find it interesting to put the conflicting loyalty to his deity against doing something that seems wrong. I'm interested in what he picks. Operative word being picks.
So let's bring it back to your prophecy. It sounds like you have several goals here.

Force one of the PCs to make a choice between Good and Evil.More then one, but yeah, moral dilemmas are fun. I'd choose that word present instead of force, but yeah.
Have the Paladin be instrumental in that choice. All the characters, but Paladin as well yeah.
Have a divine conflict that causes the world to erupt in war and leaves only two gods standing at the end. Sorry, not quite. The world's actually already pretty roiled in conflict, with several big bads already going at it.

One of these things (the third one) is entirely in your hands. You can even have the PCs play a major role in it. And best of all, there are ways to make it general enough so that it doesn't force the PCs in any particular direction. Let me give you an example.

One born eternally, of a line long and noble, shall come to wield an unknown power. One born of the light shall be a guide on the path between the light and the darkness. The choice will echo throughout eternity.
Thanks, I'll certainly use this. Among others, but it'll certainly be useful.
Simple, vague, allows for player decisionmaking. One born eternally, that can easily refer to an Elan. Unknown power, that can be a Warlock or Wizard. (Piece of advice, let them choose; find a way to sneak an item into their loot that is desirable to both, and whoever takes it marks himself as the subject of prophecy.)
No one will ever be explicitly marked as the subject of the prophecy. Someone will fulfill it. But I won't railroad who it is. You make your own destiny.
Born of the light, that's a Dragonborn Paladin twice-over. Be a guide, that means instrumental in the decision. The choice - because it's the PC's choice, not yours - can be Good or Evil, but either way it will lead to conflict. (Remember that sneaky item? Make it a big Maguffin in the plot.) Echo throughout eternity, that means the decision will lead to major outcomes (read: war between Good and Evil, two gods left standing).

See? Requires actions from nobody, can easily be interpreted retroactively.
But the point is that is ALLOWS no actions from anybody either. You can't intelligently act off of that prophecy. Which means you have now way to stop or start it. Which means that to me, it takes away the whole point, ya know?

So to recap. First, sorry for some of the sarcastic and rude wordings. I was fairly angry at the beginning of the post. Hopefully I conveyed the intent of this post adequately, which was that I recognize your concerns, but find them inapplicable in this case? So thanks for your feedback, and one more thing. I believe in a sliding scale of morality. So I think that, for example, a LG Paladin, in some cases, can actually be more LG then his deity. I think it makes the world more realistic, interesting, and grey. So I'm sorry if you think it's a poor play to dnd. To each their own.

[griffinpup]

I have used prophecies in my games before and they turned out pretty well. I don't know if I will have any time to try to convert yours in to prose or poetic verse, but I like your idea of using more than one version. In my campaign there were in fact multiple prophecies dealing with the same subject, but none of them were 'complete'. For instance, where you mention the Raven Queen and Bahumet you might have one prophecy that alludes to them through metaphor, another that identifies them by name, and a third that does not even mention their role. Each of the prophecies should come from a different source - one might have been an elderly priest of this deity, another a mad hermit living in a cavern that turned out to contain an ancient relic of this deity, and the third an Eladrin wizard who specialized in divination and spent most of her life seeking foreknowledge of the fate of her kind. Make it so that any one prophecy is too vague and ambiguous to be much use but with the second and even better the third the players can start to really piece things together.

Good luck.

Oh thank you very much. That's a great suggestion, and I definitely think i'll try to design them like that. And hey, if you got time, I'd love your prophecy, but if not, thanks for just your advice :)

[bean illus]

I think that Bahamut (is this who we're talking about? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahamut_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29)) could easily be all those things, and be quite misunderstood much of the time.

I think that such prophecy should be loose, and ambiguous. I like the idea of several legends slowly being recognized as one legend. Use indefinite words like: son, bloom, harvest, captive, loss, oh idk, almost anything works. Just leave it so that no matter what happens the prophecy was right.

Make sure to leave a few truly mysterious lines at the end that could later be realized meant the other thing. "For in the days after the beast shows true colors" or some blither.

[Geddy2112]

A prophecy(or prophecies) can add A LOT to a game, but also be very destructive. Prophecies increase the depth and complexity of your world. They are like the drawings on random dungeon/tomb #37, or the lineage of strange empire #43. They should immerse your players, for a little as an "oh cool" to a major plot/campaign arc. They become destructive when you use them to force PC behavior and DM fiat things.



Requires actions from nobody, can easily be interpreted retroactively.

Wise words; the prophecy is like a river. If the players find it, they can swim in it, find the source,fill it with turtles, any combination of the former, or plenty of other things. If they don't find it/ignore it, it does as it would do sans PC interaction. Just like random shopkeeper #102 wakes up every day even if the PC's never go there.


none of them were 'complete'
This serves two roles. First, it provides juicy plot and quest bait for the PC's, encouraging them to go off and learn more instead of find the local tavern and roll fortitude saves till they blackout. Second, it allows you to be flexible and encourages a "hands off" use of the prophecy.

Effectively, you should have Schrodinger's prophesy, so the elements behind the screen can change as needed for the game,and functions regardless of PC input. Also, not all prophecy's are right; every person who has predicted the end of the world has been wrong...

[bean illus]

every person who has predicted the end of the world has been wrong...Just because the end (life as we know it) has not happened yet does not mean they were all wrong. We now have more ways to end the world easier than ever before.

[Red Fel]

Just because the end (life as we know it) has not happened yet does not mean they were all wrong. We now have more ways to end the world easier than ever before.

Actually, it's generally more profitable to predict that the world is not going to end. Here's a handy chart:



Prediction
Right
Wrong


World Won't End
Congratulations, you were right! Everyone loves you.
Too bad, you were wrong. Fortunately, anyone who could mock you is dead.


World Will End
Congratulations, you were right! Unfortunately, everyone who could be impressed is dead.
Too bad, you were wrong. Everyone is alive and well, and thinks you're insane.



In conclusion: It's better to predict that the world will not end than to predict that it will.

[bean illus]

Actually, it's generally more profitable to predict that the world is not going to end. Here's a handy chart:



Prediction
Right
Wrong


World Won't End
Congratulations, you were right! Everyone loves you.
Too bad, you were wrong. Fortunately, anyone who could mock you is dead.


World Will End
Congratulations, you were right! Unfortunately, everyone who could be impressed is dead.
Too bad, you were wrong. Everyone is alive and well, and thinks you're insane.



In conclusion: It's better to predict that the world will not end than to predict that it will.

omg effin hiLARious