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Krade
2007-05-04, 02:26 AM
I need to be sure on this.

If you are carrying a light spiked shield for the puposes of AoO (possibly because whips don't threaten), do you apply off-hand penalties (-4 attack) or TWF penalties (-8 to attack)?

I think its just regular off-hand penalties because you aren't striking with both weapons at once.

Bardbarian
2007-05-04, 09:46 AM
--->When performing the AoO, you are not fighting with two weapons, so the TWF penalty does not apply (just as they don't apply on a TWF's charge, since he only gets the one attack.) The -4 off hand penalty is not part of 3.5 rules,so that does not apply (this is IIRC a change between 3.0 and 3.5.) The only negative on the AoO being in the off hand is that you get only 1/2 your strength bonus to damage. To sum up, no attack penalty, -1/2 STR to damage.

You also don't need spikes on the shield to threaten the area; regular shields are on the list of weapons, too.

Krade
2007-05-04, 01:51 PM
I got the spikes to do extra damage. And yes, there is still a -4.

off hand: A character's weaker or less dextrous hand. An attack made with the off-hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll.
*snip obvious part about 1/2 strength bonus*

Fax Celestis
2007-05-04, 02:38 PM
The problem here is that you're forgetting that you can designate your primary and off hands at any time. They don't have to remain the same. There's absolutely no reason you can't designate your shield hand as your primary hand when making an AoO, and your whip hand as your primary hand when making a trip attempt.

Matthew
2007-05-04, 09:45 PM
--->When performing the AoO, you are not fighting with two weapons, so the TWF penalty does not apply (just as they don't apply on a TWF's charge, since he only gets the one attack.) The -4 off hand penalty is not part of 3.5 rules,so that does not apply (this is IIRC a change between 3.0 and 3.5.) The only negative on the AoO being in the off hand is that you get only 1/2 your strength bonus to damage. To sum up, no attack penalty, -1/2 STR to damage.
As Fax says, you can designate which is your Character's Off Hand between Iterative Attacks. However, if your Character has fought with Two Weapons during his Round, the penalties do apply to any attacks made until his next Action. Basically the above is completely wrong, given that your Character has used the Full Attack Action to fight with Two Weapons immediately prior to making the Attack of Opportunity. You can freely choose whether to take a -4 or -8 Penalty in this situation, according to the Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting Articles, which clarify these rules.

Droodle
2007-05-04, 09:55 PM
As Fax says, you can designate which is your Character's Off Hand between Iterative Attacks. However, if your Character has fought with Two Weapons during his Round, the penalties do apply to any attacks made until his next Action. Basically the above is completely wrong, given that your Character has used the Full Attack Action to fight with Two Weapons immediately prior to making the Attack of Opportunity. You can freely choose whether to take a -4 or -8 Penalty in this situation, according to the Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting Articles, which clarify these rules.This character wouldn't have been using two weapons in a full attack action. Given that the character is using a whip and fighting at reach, it's safe to assume that the character was most assuredly not shield bashing in the prior round.

Matthew
2007-05-04, 09:58 PM
Not necessarily (he could have made an Unarmed Attack, for instance), as I said, it is contingent on the Action taken prior to the Attack of Opportunity. Krade doesn't give enough information to be sure either way.

Corolinth
2007-05-04, 10:08 PM
If he's fighting with two weapons and using the shield as a weapon, sure. If the character used the whip to make a trip attempt and didn't apply two-weapon penalties to the attack roll, and has been using the shield for AC, no.

Remember, unless you've got improved shield bash, you lose your shield bonus to AC.

Droodle
2007-05-04, 10:18 PM
I need to be sure on this.

If you are carrying a light spiked shield for the puposes of AoO (possibly because whips don't threaten), do you apply off-hand penalties (-4 attack) or TWF penalties (-8 to attack)?This post seems to quite clearly imply that the person carrying a shield is doing so for the purposes of AoO.....not shield bashing as part of a full attack action....which would be really unlikely since whips not only don't threaten at close range, but using a whip with someone in close range will also provoke an AoO. Assuming that the PC isn't stupid and doesn't have a death wish, he/she won't be shield bashing as part of his/her full attack action.

Matthew
2007-05-04, 10:27 PM
Sorry, I don't agree that this is clear enough to conclude absolutely that there was no Two Weapon Fighting Action prior to the Attack of Opportunity. In any case, I am not saying that there definitely was, I am saying that the penalties only apply with regard to Actions taken, not weapons held, which is the point of confusion.

Krade
2007-05-05, 12:50 AM
Okay, since there appears to be some confusion.

Yes, Improved shield bash is part of the equation of the character, but not necesary to determine what needs to be determined.

The shield bash attack will ONLY be used for AoO.

So the questions are:
If ONLY the off hand weapon is used to make an AoO, does it count as TWF? Does it matter if the primary attack was used during initiative?

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-05, 12:57 AM
Your primary attack can be changed as what is effectively a free action. The use of the whip prior to the AoO is irrelevant, since you are now only attacking with the shield. Simply state that your primary hand is now your shield hand, and attack as normal.

Matthew
2007-05-05, 06:16 AM
If ONLY the off hand weapon is used to make an AoO, does it count as TWF?
No, beacuse Two Weapon fighting is a Full Round Action. An Attack of Opportunity is not a Full Round Action. However, any penalties taken during your Character's previous Action (i.e. from Combat Expertise, Power Attack or Two Weapon Fighting) apply to the Attack of Opportunity.

Does it matter if the primary attack was used during initiative?
No, you can alternate Primary and Off Hand designations inbetween Iterative Attacks.

Bardbarian
2007-05-05, 08:32 AM
As Fax says, you can designate which is your Character's Off Hand between Iterative Attacks. However, if your Character has fought with Two Weapons during his Round, the penalties do apply to any attacks made until his next Action. Basically the above is completely wrong, given that your Character has used the Full Attack Action to fight with Two Weapons immediately prior to making the Attack of Opportunity. You can freely choose whether to take a -4 or -8 Penalty in this situation, according to the Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting Articles, which clarify these rules.

From Rules of the Game, Two handed Fighting (Part Two):


If, after you made two-weapon attacks with your sword and torch, a foe later provokes an attack of opportunity from you that same round, you can strike that foe with your longsword with no two-weapon penalty at all. (You also can use just the torch, also with no two-weapon penalty, though you still take the -4 penalty for an off-hand attack; you also still take the -4 penalty for an improvised weapon for a total penalty of -8.)

--->You're right, checking those articles is quite helpful!

Matthew
2007-05-05, 08:43 AM
That's interesting. I was thinking of that example, as well. Have to look into that again!

[Edit] Wow, I am so completely wrong on this - must have been thinking of Cleave.

Yeah, Round to Round Off Hand designation and no Two Weapon Fighting penalties outside of your Action. However, Off Hand Attacks are still at -4 AB in addition to the 0.5 Strength DB, if you do not have the Two Weapon Fighting Feat.

Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a)
Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a)
Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a)