Highest damage moon Druid animal shape?

[Spacehamster]

So afb atm and wondering what the highest damage form is and also what said form would do with a 2 paladin rest in Druid build? Smite should be pretty badass with the amount of 1-4 spells a caster that counts as lvl 19 gets right?

[Shining Wrath]

CR 6 beast, I'm thinking it may be Mammoth but AFB.

[tieren]

AFB too but I thought it was one of the dinosaurs.

and I don't think any DM would let you cast smite in animal form, even at druid level 18 I would expect them to limit you to druid spells (may be wrong though).

[Spacehamster]

AFB too but I thought it was one of the dinosaurs.

and I don't think any DM would let you cast smite in animal form, even at druid level 18 I would expect them to limit you to druid spells (may be wrong though).

Well since its not against the rules there is no reason to not let them do that. You can smite while raging so no reason to not be able to be a holy bear either. :)

[WickerNipple]

Well since its not against the rules there is no reason to not let them do that. You can smite while raging so no reason to not be able to be a holy bear either. :)

Are druid animal-form attacks 'melee weapon attacks'?

[Ninja_Prawn]

CR 6 beast, I'm thinking it may be Mammoth but AFB.

That's the only CR 6 beast, yes. It can do 4d8 + 4d10 + 14 if it hits with a charge everything it's got.


Are druid animal-form attacks 'melee weapon attacks'?

I say: "yes (except the one that's a ranged weapon attack)". They're natural weapons.

[rhouck]

That's the highest CR beast, yes. It can do 4d8 + 4d10 + 14 if it hits with a charge.

Hits with the charge, AND knocks prone, AND hits with stomp attack.

Granted, it's a DC18 check to avoid being knocked prone and, if successful, the stomp attack is +10 to hit with advantage... but just wanted to clarify that it's different than, say, the Rhinoceros or Giant Elk which automatically add additional damage when charging.

Under certain circumstances, the Giant Crocodile (CR5) might do slightly more damage due to having two separate attacks, regardless of if the enemy is prone or if there is room to charge, especially if one is interested in stacking smites onto each attack (since more attacks = more smites!).

[Daishain]

AFB, but isn't there a T-rex in there at CR7?

[Ninja_Prawn]

AFB, but isn't there a T-rex in there at CR7?

1) The T-Rex is CR 8. So you have a point; I was wrong to say that the mammoth is the highest-CR beast. Previous post is now edited.

2) The moon druid is limited to RoundDown(level/3) which is 6 at levels 18-20. So we can be forgiven for cutting higher CRs out of our reckoning.

[rhouck]

1) The T-Rex is CR 8. So you have a point; I was wrong to say that the mammoth is the highest-CR beast. Previous post is now edited.

2) The moon druid is limited to RoundDown(level/3) which is 6 at levels 18-20. So we can be forgiven for cutting higher CRs out of our reckoning.

Yup! And Giant Ape at CR7 as another "higher but not relevant here". Both attainable by a druid via Polymorph, but not Wild Shape.

[Xetheral]

Are druid animal-form attacks 'melee weapon attacks'?

Post-errata unarmed strikes are explictly not weapons, and yet can be used to make melee weapon attacks. Accordingly, whether or not you believe natural weapons count as weapons (it's controversial), I see no reason they couldn't also be used to make melee weapon attacks.

(Also, if they're not either weapon attacks or spell attacks, the combat system starts to break down.)

[PoeticDwarf]

Druid 18/paladin 2, the paladin extra damage isn't a smite, so you can do 5d8 extra damage or 10d8 with an animal with two attacks...

[hymer]

Don't neglect taking a look at the giant crocodile. At CR 5, it deals more damage in a slugging match than the the mammoth, and both its attacks have a rider effect (knockdown tail and grapple mouth) at a respectable DC 16 to avoid/escape.

If the mammoth can charge, it's nearly always better damage-wise. If it can't, the giant crocodile is nearly always better damage-wise.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Don't neglect taking a look at the giant crocodile. At CR 5, it deals more damage in a slugging match than the the mammoth, and both its attacks have a rider effect (knockdown tail and grapple mouth) at a respectable DC 16 to avoid/escape.

If the mammoth can charge, it's nearly always better damage-wise. If it can't, the giant crocodile is nearly always better damage-wise.

It's probably a better swimmer, too. With the grapple rider, you could bite someone, then drag them underwater until they drown. Most cinematic!

[tieren]

Is there a smaller yet poisonous beast that may have an effect that does more damage?

[hymer]

Is there a smaller yet poisonous beast that may have an effect that does more damage?

Well, the Giant Scorpion is size large. If you ignore that it hits four points worse than the giant croc and 6 points worse than the mammoth, and also pretend that poison damage is as good as enchanted melee, then it's actually a bit stronger than the croc. In reality, though, it falls through for those reasons and because the save for half the poison damage is a mere 12.

[SharkForce]

Well, the Giant Scorpion is size large. If you ignore that it hits four points worse than the giant croc and 6 points worse than the mammoth, and also pretend that poison damage is as good as enchanted melee, then it's actually a bit stronger than the croc. In reality, though, it falls through for those reasons and because the save for half the poison damage is a mere 12.

which is fine, considering the CR difference. if it had equal damage, i'd say that was a sign that there was a problem.

[hymer]

which is fine, considering the CR difference. if it had equal damage, i'd say that was a sign that there was a problem.

Indeed. It makes sense to search the top CRs for the wild shape that fits this shoe. Unfortunately, all wild shapes seem to have excessively large feet for the purpose. Damage dealing isn't the moon druid's particular forte.

[Spacehamster]

What would you guys say is the best feats to pick for the 2 paladin 18 druid build to maximase staying power and damage dealing while
in animal form? :)

[Xetheral]

What would you guys say is the best feats to pick for the 2 paladin 18 druid build to maximase staying power and damage dealing while
in animal form? :)

Sentinel. More opportunities to Smite, and it makes you more of a target (which is a *good* thing... you're incredibly durable, so you want enemies to attack you rather than party members).

[Spacehamster]

Sentinel. More opportunities to Smite, and it makes you more of a target (which is a *good* thing... you're incredibly durable, so you want enemies to attack you rather than party members).

What about Though for +2hp/lvl?

[Xetheral]

That one is tricky. Arguably, it won't work in Wildshape because the feat only actually does anything when you take it and when you level up, but it depends on your DM's interpretation. It your DM does let it work in wildshape, that easily doubles or triples the value of the feat and it's an amazing pick.

[Spacehamster]

Well I would allow it for my players (mainly me that DM´s) so Im sure I can + it says things that affects your normal form carries over
so it makes sense to me to let it add the hp from the lvl your pc is to the animal form. :)

[Xetheral]

Well I would allow it for my players (mainly me that DM´s) so Im sure I can + it says things that affects your normal form carries over
so it makes sense to me to let it add the hp from the lvl your pc is to the animal form. :)

I'd probably let it work too, but I suspect it isn't RAW or RAI. Same way that letting the attribute bonus from half-feats apply to wildshape probably isn't RAW or RAI either.

[Spacehamster]

I'd probably let it work too, but I suspect it isn't RAW or RAI. Same way that letting the attribute bonus from half-feats apply to wildshape probably isn't RAW or RAI either.

Attribute bonus from half feats I would not let affect it unless its WIS, INT and CHA which it says carries over to your form. STR, DEX and CON it says straight out that it does not carry over and that you use the animals stats. :) I mean if Though does not work then no feat should work in the animal forms at least in my opinion. Cause I mean Though is very basic and simple it gives 2 hp extra per level and you are still a druid of a certain level that is in another form so to me it makes sense a though and durable druid would make a though and durable animal. :)

[Xetheral]

Attribute bonus from half feats I would not let affect it unless its WIS, INT and CHA which it says carries over to your form. STR, DEX and CON it says straight out that it does not carry over and that you use the animals stats. :) I mean if Though does not work then no feat should work in the animal forms at least in my opinion. Cause I mean Though is very basic and simple it gives 2 hp extra per level and you are still a druid of a certain level that is in another form so to me it makes sense a though and durable druid would make a though and durable animal. :)

That's not actually what Tough says. It says:

"Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points."

(Emphasis added.) So, read literally, the Tough feat doesn't have a continuous effect. Rather, it only "activates" upon acquisition and then again on level up, each time increasing your hit point total. That total is then overwritten at the time you wildshape. That would be my RAW analysis, even though at my table I'd probably let it work to add 2 hp per Druid level to Wildshape forms.