Best class/abilities IRL [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Aegis013

2015-07-30, 03:12 PM

Being a Cleric would help answer a lot of the big existential questions. Is there a God? Yes, s/he's giving me all these spells. Is there an afterlife? Let's find out while I cast Speak with Dead.

Speak with Dead wouldn't get you an answer to that question. If you read the spell, you're not addressing the Soul of the person (which would have moved on to the afterlife assuming there is one, you're speaking to the body. It only has the memories it had while alive.

Plane Shift, on the other hand, might answer your questions. But considering we're not certain there are other planes IRL, you might just end up lost forever.

But wouldn't the Cleric have to be aware of that? That is, a Cleric wouldn't pray to a god and then receive the spells from a demon prince or an abstract ideal? That might be a cool plot hook but I've never heard of that? So if my IRL Cleric prays to a higher power, and then receives spells, that's pretty good evidence of a higher power.

It really depends on the setting. There's all kinds of explanations why you might pray to a higher power and receive power from another source (maybe the power was in you all along and you're just attributing it something else / maybe something else is giving you the power for its own ends and doesn't care about the credit / maybe the thing you're praying to isn't what you think a la Demon's Souls)

Since we're talking about IRL, the best bet would probably be things like Divination or Contact Other Plane (for the arcanists) and simply ask repeatedly and see what the most common answer is.

Either way it could be considered evidence, but I don't think it could be considered absolute proof.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 03:42 PM

If homebrew is allowed, I'd take Gramarist 10/Dreamason 10. The ability to create nearly anything, and even if I can't do something, I can spend about a week to create an epic level entity that can do said thing.

If not, I'd take StP Erudite 20 while being a dragonwrought kobold, then take epic spellcasting and spam mythal and shadow things.

...yes, I may be a little power hungry. :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

MilleniaAntares

2015-07-30, 03:59 PM

Cryptic 20. Immortality as a capstone, hide in plain sight, better AC & DR, built-in ranged weapon in a world with 3 creature types, clairsentient powers to avoid danger and gain money, quick and easy ability to make backups, and Expanded Knowledge can help gain a good chunk of useful non-cryptic powers.

AvatarVecna

2015-07-30, 04:13 PM

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 04:20 PM

Play my Khepri build; I am now a single step removed from Pun-Pun in terms of power.

As a slightly more serious choice that isn't going to make me complete suicide from the boredom that ultimate power would bring, I'll settle for "only" the power of a high-op Cerebremancer with Int-SAD dual-9ths in Arcane spellcasting and psionic powers.

You can always go exploring the universe with ultimate power. Find alien civilizations, figure out how the universe works. If I got bored of ultimate power, I'd research a spell that locked away most of my powers unless I chose to get the back. Think of it as playing through a video game, except you're only using some of the cheat codes so you can do fun things. :smallbiggrin:

Arael666

2015-07-30, 04:21 PM

As a slightly more serious choice that isn't going to make me complete suicide from the boredom that ultimate power would bring, I'll settle for "only" the power of a high-op Cerebremancer with Int-SAD dual-9ths in Arcane spellcasting and psionic powers.

This! So much this! Absolute power would bring absolute boredom! Might as well give yourself a litle handicap to make things interesting.

Also, double 9ths! I personaly would go for Arcane/Divine but Arcane/Psionic is also very good.

AvatarVecna

2015-07-30, 04:23 PM

You can always go exploring the universe with ultimate power. Find alien civilizations, figure out how the universe works. If I got bored of ultimate power, I'd research a spell that locked away most of my powers unless I chose to get the back. Think of it as playing through a video game, except you're only using some of the cheat codes so you can do fun things. :smallbiggrin:

But I've no interest in that kind of stuff. With Khepri, I could play god for another entire species of my own creation, but I've already acknowledged that I'd be a terrible deity (in the "what would you do if you were omnipotent?" thread); with the Cerebremancer build, I can just be a supremely powerful mortal without being quite omnipotent yet. I'd still be a big grounded to reality, and that's important to both my personal thoughts on morality and my mental health.

AvatarVecna

2015-07-30, 04:25 PM

This! So much this! Absolute power would bring absolute boredom! Might as well give yourself a litle handicap to make things interesting.

Also, double 9ths! I personaly would go for Arcane/Divine but Arcane/Psionic is also very good.

Plus, with 9th level wizard spells (such as Gate and Wish) I can rebuild my character to be Khepri whenever the whim strikes me, should such a cheat become an attractive option.

Hecuba

2015-07-30, 04:28 PM

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 04:31 PM

Psion 20 (Telepath)

Flashier options run the risk of being strapped down in a lab and cut open.

The difficulty will be in maintaining sufficient XP to keep up with the TMS usage in a world without ECL encounters .\evil cackle

You're a level 20 character. A starmantle cloak and ring of freedom of movement makes you immune to the majority of threats in the world. And then you just take persist power and manifest a persisted timeless body each day for complete invulnerability to anything Earth can put out.

DMVerdandi

2015-07-30, 04:45 PM

Morcleon has the right idea.

Erudite 20 (Convert spell to power).
Even though it starts off a little slower, it's got tremendous momentum later with the UPPD.
Also, having access to all arcane spells to level 8 is gorgeous, considering how many awesome one's come from classes that have less than six.

Also, I just like the psionic mechanics and themes more
MFW manifesting. http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Who+the+is+phanact+_9d918ec2edfb7a38c4f8a539d3b85f 7b.gif

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 04:48 PM

Hecuba

2015-07-30, 05:06 PM

You're a level 20 character. A starmantle cloak and ring of freedom of movement makes you immune to the majority of threats in the world. And then you just take persist power and manifest a persisted timeless body each day for complete invulnerability to anything Earth can put out.

I thought we got class features, not the full 20 WBL & kit.
I also wasn't considering 3.0 edition psioncis (though I would be perfectly happy with that version too), nor do I regularly user hyperconciousness. Thus I didn't really consider persist power as a thing.

Either way, if I'm overt enough about it that I need actual immunity life would get tedious quite fast.
I don't want to rule the world.
{evil}I just want to dominate people when it is convenient and jump in to a nice, young, attractive new body every couple of years.{/evil}

Jack_Simth

2015-07-30, 05:37 PM

Total wishful thinking but if you could waive a magic wand and assume the abilities of a level 20 character, what would you choose? It's an interesting set of constraints because you are still you in the real world and things like Dispel Magic would be practically useless.Going Pathfinder?
Race... Voidkin Kitsune (Heritage Focus: Disguise), I think, with Naturalized & Nine-tailed Inheritor. Oracle-20. Forsaken, using the Spirit Guide and Nine-tailed Inheritor Archetypes (Lore for Arcane Enlightenment for the spells, of course... assuming I can pick which option out of possible interpretations used so I can actually cast a daily selectable set of Wizard spells). Mystery... Occult, I should think (for the capstone, mostly).

Feats... Realistic Likeness, Fox Shape, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, and item creation feats (plus the bonus ones, of course).

Invest slightly in Int, use favoured class bonuses on skill points. Skills... Disguise (be anyone), Bluff (get places), UMD (use items), Spellcraft (item crafting), Kn(Arcana) (spell knowledge), Kn(Religion) (undead knowledge), diplomacy (make friends).

Go anywhere, be anyone, cast nearly any spell. If something happens and I should die... wake up a few hours later, Blood Money + Restoration away the drawbacks (assuming it wasn't my free astral projection that got ganked). If I get killed twice in one week... ghostly form 2d4 days later, malevolence someone in jail (or a prepared-in-advance simulacrum), Blood Money + Resurrection + Greater Teleport + Blood Money + Restoration and I'm fine again. Most the time, though, I won't be ageing simply because it'll be an Astral Projection instead. Should my flesh finally start to fail... Simulacrum up a Druid for a Reincarnate. Or just stay a ghost and posses a suitable simulacrum of myself when I was alive. By lore ghosts don't really age, even though that's not specified in the rules.

Edit: Oh, hey: Magic items! Headband of Mental Prowess, can add Perception, Sense Motive, and Knowledge(The Planes). This lets me make Simulacrums of Outsiders (Divine Spells) and Dragons (Arcane Spells) via Blood Money! And of course, in turn, that lets me make lots of moolah in a one-time-investment manner! Nifty!

DMVerdandi

2015-07-30, 06:31 PM

Wait, wait...

Can I have 20 Deity Hit Dice instead.
Alter Reality, LET'S GO!!!!

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 06:37 PM

Wait, wait...

Can I have 20 Deity Hit Dice instead.
Alter Reality, LET'S GO!!!!

Deity HD are just normal outsider HD. You need divine rank for deity abilities.

Bad Wolf

2015-07-30, 06:53 PM

Well I don't think I have 20 INT in real life, so I'd have to go with Charisma or wisdom based casting. Im sorta shy in real life and Im not very popular, so I'd have to go with wisdom casting. I'd either be a Druid or a Cloistered Cleric.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 06:55 PM

DMVerdandi

2015-07-30, 06:56 PM

Deity HD are just normal outsider HD. You need divine rank for deity abilities.
Saying Deity HD implies that there are divine ranks present, non?

Draconium

2015-07-30, 06:58 PM

Wizard, by far. Simply because I think Int-based casting would be my strong suit IRL.

And also, I would love to get smarter for leveling. And then cast a Wish to nab myself even more Int. :smallbiggrin:

Bad Wolf

2015-07-30, 07:00 PM

Put your +5 from leveling into Int then? And then get a +5 inherent Int from wishes.

Good point. Then I'd be a wizard, and take over the world in a few hours.

KillianHawkeye

2015-07-30, 07:04 PM

Psion 20 (Telepath)

Flashier options run the risk of being strapped down in a lab and cut open.

This is probably what I'd actually choose, but since it's already been said, I'll throw out my second place answer which is Warlock.

Think about it, with the right invocations you'd be able to fly, turn invisible, see in the dark, break through any locked door, make people like you, and talk to animals! Plus, you'd have some token DR and energy resistances and the ability to heal your wounds once a day. You could be a super hero (or super villain) if you wanted to, or vanish into the shadows and live completely off the grid.

And that isn't even getting into the potential possibilities of making magic items!

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 07:05 PM

Saying Deity HD implies that there are divine ranks present, non?

There isn't really anything called Deity HD. Most deities have 20 outsider HD, and some class levels. Their divine ranks are not a function of their HD.

DMVerdandi

2015-07-30, 07:10 PM

There isn't really anything called Deity HD. Most deities have 20 outsider HD, and some class levels. Their divine ranks are not a function of their HD.

*gasp*
Okay then I will choose a 18 DR Deity with 18 Outsider hit HD, and 2 levels of Erudite.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 07:19 PM

*gasp*
Okay then I will choose a 18 DR Deity with 18 Outsider hit HD, and 2 levels of Erudite.

That's... not how deities work. :smallconfused:

noob

2015-07-30, 07:30 PM

The best class is cleric with some point in diplomacy and taking some items/feat/class features who increase the friendliness of people you encounter you can make everybody a slave even pun pun because when he will meet you he will already have a starting friendliness of helpful and then you just use diplomacy to make him a slave.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 07:41 PM

noob

2015-07-30, 07:46 PM

"Pun Pun is a PC, and thus immune to diplomacy. "
PC's immunity to diplomacy is not RAW it is just one of the most common house-rule ever and the game is absurd without this house-rule.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 08:08 PM

"Pun Pun is a PC, and thus immune to diplomacy. "
PC's immunity to diplomacy is not RAW it is just one of the most common house-rule ever and the game is absurd without this house-rule.

It is RAW though.

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check

This is what Diplomacy can do. It does not let you change the attitude of player characters.

Aegis013

2015-07-30, 08:18 PM

Even if it did, getting someone to Fanatic (slave-state) is a mind-affecting effect. I'm sure Pun-Pun would be immune.

Tvtyrant

2015-07-30, 08:26 PM

Dromuthra

2015-07-30, 08:33 PM

This is actually a question I think about with some frequency. I'd probably go Sha'ir as my base arcane and then go for divine or psionic ninths as well. I always considered that you don't get WBL or items, so if you went wizard you'd only get the two spells per level that you would know. If item creation and/or greater access to spells is allowed... then probably STP Erudite. Infinite PP for Arcane/Divine/Psionic sounds good to me.

Bad Wolf

2015-07-30, 09:05 PM

I would go with Warlock. Lets me make any magic item and most class abilities are not based on ability scores. I'm fairly certain I have an int score in the positive range, but wisdom and charisma are not a given. Nets me flight, invisibility, charm person, shatter and a type of teleportation as often as I want for life. Just using shatter at will makes me the world's greatest spy, much less my other abilities.

Now I'm considering Warlock instead of Wizard....it wouldn't really be fun ruling the world and spending all my time on building an army.

Tvtyrant

2015-07-30, 09:10 PM

Now I'm considering Warlock instead of Wizard....it wouldn't really be fun ruling the world and spending all my time on building an army.

You can still do it, and even use the same spells. It will just take a little more work, but in return your other powers are effortless.

Sounds like the pervert class. :smalltongue:

:smallfrown:

Hiro Protagonest

2015-07-30, 09:10 PM

I would go with Warlock. Lets me make any magic item and most class abilities are not based on ability scores. I'm fairly certain I have an int score in the positive range, but wisdom and charisma are not a given. Nets me flight, invisibility, charm person, shatter and a type of teleportation as often as I want for life. Just using shatter at will makes me the world's greatest spy, much less my other abilities.

Sounds like the pervert class. :smalltongue:

Granted, I want to be a druid, because it cuts out the middleman on "bring a cute dog to show the girls". :smallamused: And it's a convenient excuse to act like a cat!

Rakoa

2015-07-30, 10:49 PM

Psion me up for Telepath! Oh, the evil things I would do with Dominate... not to mention Mind Switch.

DMVerdandi

2015-07-30, 11:12 PM

That's... not how deities work. :smallconfused:

The rules on deities fluctuate, as tiamat and bahamut have no class levels, and Hercules and Imhotep have no outsider HD, despite being outsiders.

If you want, I can just play as a 20 erudite with divine rank 15, and we can be done with this semantics shenanigans.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 11:16 PM

The rules on deities fluctuate, as tiamat and bahamut have no class levels, and Hercules and Imhotep have no outsider HD, despite being outsiders.

If you want, I can just play as a 20 erudite with divine rank 15, and we can be done with this semantics shenanigans.

That's why it's "most deities", not all. You could easily have an HD 1 creature gain divine rank 0 via plot.

How are you getting the divine rank 15? There's no way (short of pun pun or DM fiat) to actually obtain divine rank within the rules.

Nifft

2015-07-30, 11:20 PM

Psion would be amazing.

Telepath is the best discipline, for Charm, Suggestion, Read Thoughts, Dominate, Modify Memory, Mind Probe, and True Mind Switch.

Other discipline powers that I'd want are:
- Astral Construct (Shaper)
- Mass Fabricate (Shaper)
- Metamorphosis (Egoist)
- Restore Extremity (Egoist)

Other than those, I think the standard Psion power list is more than sufficient.

ben-zayb

2015-07-30, 11:31 PM

In a setting where you don't have external powers to babysit you with 9th level spells?

No need for 20 class levels, chief. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-8-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)) A single polymorph/metamorphosis is all I need.

EDIT: You can also do every single one of those cute tricks mentioned above my post, using this method. Take your cake and eat it, too!:smallcool:

AvatarVecna

2015-07-30, 11:38 PM

In a setting where you don't have external powers to babysit you with 9th level spells?

No need for 20 class levels, chief. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-8-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)) A single polymorph/metamorphosis is all I need.

The problem with that method is that, if there's no outer powers available to "babysit" us via 9th level spells IRL, there's also a lot of monsters that aren't available IRL either...such as the Shaedling.

Morcleon

2015-07-30, 11:39 PM

The problem with that method is that, if there's no outer powers available to "babysit" us via 9th level spells IRL, there's also a lot of monsters that aren't available IRL either...such as the Shaedling.

And that is why you go dragonwrough kobold, take Epic Spellcasting, and use the shadow seed to make your own monsters. :smallbiggrin:

AvatarVecna

2015-07-30, 11:41 PM

And that is why you go dragonwrough kobold, take Epic Spellcasting, and use the shadow seed to make your own monsters. :smallbiggrin:

Fair enough, there's still ways to get those monsters, but that's only by abusing epic spellcasting, and if you're doing that, you may as well abuse Wish with nested Thought Bottle shenanigans.

ben-zayb

2015-07-30, 11:42 PM

The problem with that method is that, if there's no outer powers available to "babysit" us via 9th level spells IRL, there's also a lot of monsters that aren't available IRL either...such as the Shaedling.

Ah, fair point. Let the babysitting deities and fiends have it, then.

EDIT: Then again, casting Polymorph is an ability, so by the premise of this thread you should have open access to monsters normally available via ability to cast spells, same with Ice Assassins, Simulacrum, Summons, and Called creatures. Calling pazuzu, sacrificing lives for power, and making deals with fiends, though? Those aren't Abilities, and are thus outside the scope of this thread.

BassWalker

2015-07-31, 01:37 AM

I'm surprised that noone's said the most obvious answer of all... Barbarian 20. "HULK DID PAY HIS TAXES!!!" *smashes the IRS building* :smalltongue: Hehe.

I'd go with Dragonfire Adept, myself. You get the goodness that are the Warlock's invocations, and you can have all sorts of fun with your magical breaths. Flight to avoid traffic, invisibility to avoid the police when the guy with big ass wings gets spotted in the sky above downtown. Of course, Beguiling Influence and Charm have their uses, as well. Humanoid Shape would probably be a must, to keep from scaring people with your scales.

Ruethgar

2015-07-31, 03:22 AM

Human
Sorcerer 3/Human Paragon 3/Major Silver Dragon Bloodline/Draconic:Chian Lung 3(bought off), Half-Dragon:Bronze 3(bought off)/Chosen of Mystra 4(-1 buyoff)/Chameleon 2/Sorcerer 9

Only sorc 16 with Loredrake, but the Mystra SLAs get me Wish and Sanctum Wish as SLAs. Sanctum Word of Genesis and Gate friends to my own universe. I am powerful enough with the sorcerer caster that I don't really need to worry about external threats being a problem as long as I prepare. I can also ascend as a god via Mirror Mephit if I want to.

Edit: It should also be noted that our universe is typically considered a dead magic zone, so being able to make a weave would be useful.

Hecuba

2015-07-31, 08:12 AM

This is probably what I'd actually choose, but since it's already been said, I'll throw out my second place answer which is Warlock.

If you change your mind, I would be perfectly willing to manifest mind seed to assist you with changing classes.{/evil}

Bad Wolf

2015-07-31, 09:18 AM

If you change your mind, I would be perfectly willing to manifest mind seed to assist you with changing classes.{/evil}

This guy is totally trustworthy.

Beriorn

2015-07-31, 09:30 AM

atemu1234

2015-07-31, 10:38 AM

Diplomancer. Peace in the Middle East, bra.

Hecuba

2015-07-31, 09:58 PM

This guy is totally trustworthy.

Indeed: I guarantee, if we end up with the powers we ask for here, the service would be fulfilled exactly as offered (presuming he accepts). I am lawful after all.

ben-zayb

2015-07-31, 10:06 PM

Wizard 3/Rainbow Servant 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7.

With feats you can get into Rainbow Servant early, and IotSV matches Rainbow Servant in theme.

Oh, and it means I can learn all Wizard and Cleric spells. Fun stuff!

If you are into entry tricks, might as well make it Wizard 1/ Rainbow Servant 10 / IotSV 7 / something X (Wyrm Wizard, maybe?)

Lanceloth

2015-08-01, 08:20 AM

Greater Arcane Fusion. Win button

If you are into entry tricks, might as well make it Wizard 1/ Rainbow Servant 10 / IotSV 7 / something X (Wyrm Wizard, maybe?)
-7 caster level?
Become sorcerer, you can learn any spell with scroll or grimoire ( Why Rainbow? )

Elandris Kajar

2015-08-01, 08:25 AM

Please do not restart the argument, for the sake of this being a decent thread already.

I personally would do wizard/ Rainbow Servant or maybe a swift hunter.
Monk could be awesome too, power is relative. Even CW Samurai would be stupidly powerful, able to take dozens of bullets.

paranoidbox

2015-08-01, 09:10 AM

Not the most popular choice, but here's mine:
Sorcerer going into Chameleon.

I don't necessarily want the high level spells and I certainly don't need all of the spells. I just want to be able to do everything well enough to be considered good at, well, everything and have access to handy low to mid level spells like Invisibility, Heroism, Shrink Item, Fly, Charm Person, etc etc... Add Teleport and Telekinesis to that mix and I'd be good. I would be a king among fools. FOOLS, I SAY!

eggynack

2015-08-01, 11:22 AM

-7 caster level?

Actually, because text trumps table, and because the text says, "When a new rainbow servant level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which she could cast 3rd-level arcane spells before she added the prestige class," the class doesn't lose any caster levels.

ben-zayb

2015-08-01, 11:35 AM

Lanceloth

2015-08-01, 01:25 PM

Actually, because text trumps table, and because the text says, "When a new rainbow servant level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which she could cast 3rd-level arcane spells before she added the prestige class," the class doesn't lose any caster levels.
Dndtools, -4 caster level. :smallamused:

torrasque666

2015-08-01, 01:36 PM

the-site-that-is-not-named, -4 caster level. :smallamused:
all the site did was copy down the text and the table. even the text on the-site-that-is-not-named says that its every level.

Fearan

2015-08-01, 01:40 PM

Foxy stuff
Could you please point me to the source of 9-tails inheritor, voidkin kitsune and Naturalised?

UPD: For the topic, I'd probably go Dragonfire Adept. Sweet and easy, Dyplomacy buffs, Knowledge buffs - and that's just the first level.

torrasque666

2015-08-01, 01:48 PM

Warblade. Because every single one of its abilities are Ex and can actually function without magic. Wizards? You're gonna be spending a lot of XP on wishes for the scrolls that you want if you want more than the two(or slightly more) spells per level you get. Clerics? Likely gonna need a particularly strong belief in an ideal. Druids? You're gonna be called a hippie (ok, can't actually think of a downside for a druid)

And that's all assuming that our world isn't a dead magic plane, or a null magic plane.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-01, 02:05 PM

Could you please point me to the source of 9-tails inheritor, voidkin kitsune and Naturalised?All of those specific items can be found Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune). Naturalized and Nine-tailed Inheritor are both from Everyman Gaming, as is Voidkin (although it's a slightly different section). Lots of 3rd party stuff in that build, don't get me wrong, but it's still Pathfinder.

Fearan

2015-08-01, 02:14 PM

All of those specific items can be found Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune). Naturalized and Nine-tailed Inheritor are both from Everyman Gaming, as is Voidkin (although it's a slightly different section). Lots of 3rd party stuff in that build, don't get me wrong, but it's still Pathfinder.

Thanks. Haven't realised, that srd was updated.

CIDE

2015-08-01, 08:31 PM

Being a Cleric would help answer a lot of the big existential questions. Is there a God? Yes, s/he's giving me all these spells. Is there an afterlife? Let's find out while I cast Speak with Dead.

All while being nearly as powerful as the Wizard. In some ways even better in a IRL setting since a Wizard normally requires some extra stuff that may not be available.

But wouldn't the Cleric have to be aware of that? That is, a Cleric wouldn't pray to a god and then receive the spells from a demon prince or an abstract ideal? That might be a cool plot hook but I've never heard of that? So if my IRL Cleric prays to a higher power, and then receives spells, that's pretty good evidence of a higher power.

Mind if I take your idea of a plot hook for a later game/character...?

While true that it's highly unlikely that you'd end up accidentally praying to the wrong being, it is possible that you pray to a being that doesn't actually exist and as a result have your power come from your faith and not from a god without you ever realizing it.

Doesn't the Cleric generally know?

Honestly, Wizard 20 gives you pretty much anything you'll ever need and then some. Any tweaks on that are mostly just attempts to milk every last drop of power you can get. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course.

With the OP as written wouldn't the Wizard be stuck with the 2/level spells?

I almost want to suggest Druid, Sorc, or Cleric may be stronger given the situation.

-----------------

Anyway, my answer is Tippy's ultimate Psion build. 'cause I don't trust any of you other guys making characters and it gives me the most options outside of Pun-Pun. I'd probably do all sorts of exploring the universe. I don't know if it'd be worth it to try to fix our world. Maybe if it's still around in a hundred years.

http://ds6br8f5qp1u2.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/tumblr_m78nk3UbaX1qmmdsqo1_500.jpg?f016f5

ben-zayb

2015-08-01, 10:34 PM

Anyway, my answer is Tippy's ultimate Psion build. 'cause I don't trust any of you other guys making characters and it gives me the most options outside of Pun-Pun.Maybe because you skipped this part, which pretty much using the concept of his Ultimate Psion, but done at a lower level:
No need for 20 class levels, chief. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430414-Naughty-Sorceress-(Level-8-Miracle-Wish-Gate-Shapechange-Sarrukh-Wealth-Pact-free-TO)) A single polymorph/metamorphosis is all I need.

EDIT: You can also do every single one of those cute tricks mentioned above my post, using this method. Take your cake and eat it, too!:smallcool:Because abusing Manipulate Form is sooo 2004.

bekeleven

2015-08-01, 10:55 PM

Wizards have no source for magical inks and if they did they wouldn't get more than 2 spells/level, so prepared arcane is bunk.

I'd like to say I have 18-19 in all my abilities but realistically I'm probably running the non-elite array with 8 12 9 13 10 8.

So...

Sorcerer going into Chameleon.
Factotum 10/Chameleon 10. Chameleon even comes with +8 to an ability if I want to cast things.

Renen

2015-08-01, 10:58 PM

Anyway, my answer is Tippy's ultimate Psion build. 'cause I don't trust any of you other guys making characters and it gives me the most options outside of Pun-Pun.

Please... Tell me more...

Oh, and you don't even need any class levels. Just having at will mindrape and high INT and charisma gets you total world domination. You can even dump physical stats.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330084835/villains/images/1/12/3400292-lelouch-1-.png

Morcleon

2015-08-01, 10:58 PM

Wizards have no source for magical inks and if they did they wouldn't get more than 2 spells/level, so prepared arcane is bunk.

I'd like to say I have 18-19 in all my abilities but realistically I'm probably running the non-elite array with 8 12 9 13 10 8.

Spam wish with thought bottles to get scrolls of all spells and enough inks to do the job. Done.

CIDE

2015-08-01, 11:20 PM

Maybe because you skipped this part, which pretty much using the concept of his Ultimate Psion, but done at a lower level:Because abusing Manipulate Form is sooo 2004.

I did miss it but hardly care. I prefer Psion to Sorc and we're level 20 anyway meaning how early we can do it matters not. Sooo...

Please... Tell me more...

Oh, and you don't even need any class levels. Just having at will mindrape and high INT and charisma gets you total world domination. You can even dump physical stats.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330084835/villains/images/1/12/3400292-lelouch-1-.png

Tell you more about the psion?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4702.0

torrasque666

2015-08-02, 12:22 AM

Spam wish with thought bottles to get scrolls of all spells and enough inks to do the job. Done.
You better be using a wish to get that thought bottle then. Items are not Race or Class Abilities.

Morcleon

2015-08-02, 12:28 AM

You better be using a wish to get that thought bottle then. Items are not Race or Class Abilities.

Or you can use various tricks to get lots of money, then craft the bottle yourself using Distilled Joy as an XP source.

torrasque666

2015-08-02, 12:43 AM

Or you can use various tricks to get lots of money, then craft the bottle yourself using Distilled Joy as an XP source.
You're gonna need to cast that spell at least 400 times to craft it. Takes a lot of time, over a year to do.

Morcleon

2015-08-02, 12:50 AM

You're gonna need to cast that spell at least 400 times to craft it. Takes a lot of time, over a year to do.

Consider that wizard will be able to prepare it about 5 times per day, so it's closer to a few months. That can further be reduced by using tricks to get spell slots back, as well as fast time demiplanes via genesis.

torrasque666

2015-08-02, 12:54 AM

Consider that wizard will be able to prepare it about 5 times per day, so it's closer to a few months. That can further be reduced by using tricks to get spell slots back, as well as fast time demiplanes via genesis.
1 day casting time... and there's still a debate going on over whether or not genesis allows for fast time demiplanes due to its loose wording.

Morcleon

2015-08-02, 01:01 AM

1 day casting time... and there's still a debate going on over whether or not genesis allows for fast time demiplanes due to its loose wording.

Ah, right. And RAW states that demiplanes via the magical version of genesis can select fast time. RAI and balance are both almost certainly a no as displayed in the psionic version. Of course, even without fast time, spending a year of hard work for immense arcane power is certainly worth it.

And afterwards, go become a lich for immortality and use a Skin of Proteus to keep people from seeing who you really are. :smallbiggrin:

bekeleven

2015-08-02, 04:06 AM

And afterwards, go become a lich for immortality and use a Skin of Proteus to keep people from seeing who you really are. :smallbiggrin:
But then you can't have bad coffee.

Morcleon

2015-08-02, 07:17 AM

But then you can't have bad coffee.

You can when polymorphed into a human. That's a physical change, not an illusion. :smalltongue:

paranoidbox

2015-08-02, 10:58 AM

Reported for flaming the entire GitP community, and the rest of humankind actually

See, this is when I cast Charm Person on you and tell you that I meant those other fools.

Rubik

2015-08-02, 12:27 PM

This! So much this! Absolute power would bring absolute boredom!

Uhhh... No. Remember, D&D has a ton of magical effects that can edit your mind and/or your emotions. Boredom is impossible for someone with access to any of them.

I'd probably go for ardent 10 with ACFs/illithid savant 10 with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), using a STP erudite and Psychic Chirurgery to learn every power and spell out there.

Rubik

2015-08-02, 02:58 PM

Consider that wizard will be able to prepare it about 5 times per day, so it's closer to a few months. That can further be reduced by using tricks to get spell slots back, as well as fast time demiplanes via genesis.IIRC, each casting is of Permanent duration, and the text is such that you can make unlimited crafting XP so long as that duration lasts.

Morcleon

2015-08-02, 03:09 PM

IIRC, each casting is of Permanent duration, and the text is such that you can make unlimited crafting XP so long as that duration lasts.

Ooh, nice. I didn't even notice that it was permanent duration. :smallbiggrin:

Rubik

2015-08-03, 09:47 AM

Ooh, nice. I didn't even notice that it was permanent duration. :smallbiggrin:So cast the spell on a very happy person and ensure that person stays happy. Can you imagine how much ambrosia you'd get every day from, say, Pinkie Pie?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111009164913/mlp/images/6/69/First_Pinkie_Pie_smile_S1E23.png

Unbodied

2015-08-03, 11:36 AM

Monk 20. I don't want to be a superhero or cast spells in real life, but the ability to avoid the ravages of illness, poison, aging, and injury until my time is up... Sounds pretty good to me.In that case you should pick the Monk of the Four Winds archetype. That way you also get immortality and automatic reincarnation.

Cryptic 20. Immortality as a capstone, hide in plain sight, better AC & DR, built-in ranged weapon in a world with 3 creature types, clairsentient powers to avoid danger and gain money, quick and easy ability to make backups, and Expanded Knowledge can help gain a good chunk of useful non-cryptic powers.
Immortality is nice but if we can really pick any class we want then you should be able to pick Ascendant Psion which can only be used by Elans, making you a Elan by default and thus immortal.

This! So much this! Absolute power would bring absolute boredom! Might as well give yourself a litle handicap to make things interesting.
Why? We're talking about real life here, not a game. Why would you need to make things interesting? If you're bored play a video game or read a book or something. Then when your break is over go back to using absolute power to wipe out hunger, disease, suffering, global warming and turn the world into an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.

TheNivMizzet

2015-08-03, 12:00 PM

The difficulty will be in maintaining sufficient XP to keep up with the TMS usage in a world without ECL encounters .\evil cackle

Between illusions and teleportation I would fly to a war torn country and start picking fights with tanks. I don't care how much of a threat they are. To a level 20 character a tank shell is still going to hurt. That ought to give you some xp at least.

smcmike

2015-08-03, 12:02 PM

In that case you should pick the Monk of the Four Winds archetype. That way you also get immortality and automatic reincarnation.

Why? We're talking about real life here, not a game. Why would you need to make things interesting? If you're bored play a video game or read a book or something. Then when your break is over go back to using absolute power to wipe out hunger, disease, suffering, global warming and turn the world into an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.

Nice. Yes, on the monk.

What I don't understand is rating "the ability to take multiple bullets" highly. I don't want to get shot, whether I can survive it or not! I also don't want to spend all day casting ritual magic or floating about the universe or alternate planes. Just give me the ability to live life on earth a bit better.

Though I don't believe in "honest for real no secret catch Utopias," so that's out. But making the world a bit better would be nice.

noob

2015-08-03, 12:06 PM

Rubik

2015-08-03, 12:17 PM

Why? We're talking about real life here, not a game. Why would you need to make things interesting? If you're bored play a video game or read a book or something. Then when your break is over go back to using absolute power to wipe out hunger, disease, suffering, global warming and turn the world into an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.Plus Friggin' One.

There's so much good you could do with Tier 0 levels of power it's not even funny, and it wouldn't even require much actual effort.

Three seconds for a supernatural Wish to create a repeating and self-replicating trap that randomly teleports to a new location near a human and creates more of itself out of air molecules (which then teleport and replicate themselves in the same way) which casts Heal and Regenerate on any sapient creature nearby (to prevent medical maladies, cure everything from the common cold to HIV, and prevent other sources of physical suffering), PAOs pollution into something less damaging to the environment (to reduce humanity's ecological footprint), Bestow Curse on humans to render them harmlessly sterile after successfully reproducing once (to seriously cut down on overpopulation over time, to be negated in a few dozen generations to gradually reduce overpopulation), another Bestow Curse to prevent unwanted and accidental pregnancies (to ensure that every child is actually wanted), and another few Bestow Curses to prevent horrible behaviors such as wars, terrorism, and child and spousal abuse. Yes, this is invasive, and yes, it does somewhat subvert portions of free will. But free will can be a bad thing sometimes, and this is a lot less invasive than certain alternatives, and it ensures the safety and well-being of everyone on Earth in a lot less invasive way than any other way I can think of. You can also add in several other benefits to said trap, such as castings of all the stat-boosters (+4 Wis to everyone on the planet would be a great way to improve humanity's bad behaviors, I think), Precognition for +2 to most d20 rolls, and Second Chance for lots of good luck for everyone. Perhaps a spell that forcibly turns Evil creatures Neutral (ie, prevents sociopathic and psychopathic behavior), and selectively destroys any undead and fiends or other types of creatures known for being horribly destructive and difficult to deal with. No wightocalypses on THIS planet as a result of my gaining class levels!

Then follow it up with a repeating trap that, when activated, produces repeating traps (that produce more, etc etc) that create single-use traps of Permanencied Magnificent Mansion. Then start handing those traps out to everyone. That will reduce the need for large scale environmental damage due to urbanization AND obliterate world hunger for everyone, so long as distribution is widespread enough.

Then produce free energy for everyone through strategically deployed Permanencied Walls of Fire (or Energy Walls of electricity, if you can find ways to store the produced energy and it's viable for public consumption).

Then go out and explore the stars through scrying and teleportation. Terraform and colonize Mars. And lots of other possibilities.

And this is just the beginning of what's possible.

Though I don't believe in "honest for real no secret catch Utopias," so that's out. But making the world a bit better would be nice.You don't have access to D&D magic and its infinite uses. Free energy, no injury or disease, solutions to every major problem humanity is currently dealing with, and (relatively) noninvasive ways of curbing poor behaviors before they even start. Yes, my suggestions above do stomp on some aspects of free will, but some aspects of free will need to be stomped on. It still leaves most people relatively untouched and only curbs those aspects of free will that are actively harmful to everyone.

And it's not like it's a 1984 scenario. No Big Brother watching over you, no paranoia. Just a few spell effects that fairly harmlessly prevent needless violence against innocent people and cure mental health problems.

TheNivMizzet

2015-08-03, 12:23 PM

According to pathfinder an average trench wars soldier is level 5.
Modern guys are so much awesome!
The tank will probably give you a correct amount xp to your level 20 character.
You can also win XP with other ways like for example by cooking in a restaurant a meal for the gastronomic critic there is tons of ways to get XP without hitting people.

But where is the point there. To throw in my magical level 20 character to enjoy in the real world I would probably play a Wizard 20, Conjuration specialist with spontaneous divination. Building my own manor somewhere, on a different continent whenever I feel like a different climate, hell I may just change the weather on a whim. Sure its a power fantasy but damn, running around the real world doing all the really buggy stuff like boosting your movement speed and crushing world records, making a fortune in movies with real monsters, perfect precognition to keep myself safe. May even start a war or two to keep things interesting.

noob

2015-08-03, 12:24 PM

Why would overpopulation be ever a problem if you can create space, food and energy for free as much as you want.

Rubik

2015-08-03, 12:30 PM

Why would overpopulation be ever a problem if you can create space, food and energy for free as much as you want.Even curbing the worst of humanity's bad behaviors, there are a lot of problems inherent with having over 9 billion humans living in a relatively confined place, and keeping tabs on a rapidly expanding interstellar culture (to ensure the self-replicating traps are still reaching them and functioning properly away from Earth) would be exceedingly difficult, even with D&D magic backing you up.

Though I suppose overpopulation isn't nearly as big of a deal if we're exploring a finite (but practically infinite) universe.

noob

2015-08-03, 12:35 PM

You with your traps creating traps you could create new extra-dimensional spaces as fast as you want(And so have even 1000km livable space cube per human if you want)

Rubik

2015-08-03, 12:39 PM

You with your traps creating traps you could create new extra-dimensional spaces as fast as you want(And so have even 1000km livable space cube per human if you want)This leads to some weirdness, honestly. It eventually gets to the point where practically everyone will be trapped on their demiplanes because there simply won't be room for even a small fraction of everyone to leave. Humans reproduce somewhere between geometrically and exponentially, and it won't take long before this is the case, and the extradimensional spaces will soon fill up and more will be needed. I wouldn't want to be stuck inside one permanently, no matter how large it is.

We'd have to start exploring the stars and emigrating, if for no other reason than to prevent the above. Of course, that means that most humans will never be able to visit Earth because there just isn't room for it.

smcmike

2015-08-03, 12:45 PM

You don't have access to D&D magic and its infinite uses. Free energy, no injury or disease, solutions to every major problem humanity is currently dealing with, and (relatively) noninvasive ways of curbing poor behaviors before they even start. Yes, my suggestions above do stomp on some aspects of free will, but some aspects of free will need to be stomped on. It still leaves most people relatively untouched and only curbs those aspects of free will that are actively harmful to everyone.

And it's not like it's a 1984 scenario. No Big Brother watching over you, no paranoia. Just a few spell effects that fairly harmlessly prevent needless violence against innocent people and cure mental health problems.

Even assuming your above solution is RAW (and if it is, I'm curious how anyone does any interesting gaming at level 20), I have faith in the ability of humans to be miserable, no matter how beautifully you construct their cages.

Rubik

2015-08-03, 12:52 PM

I have faith in the ability of humans to be miserable, no matter how beautifully you construct their cages."Oh no, I can't abuse my wife and kids! I can't murder the guy who accidentally cut me off at the stop light this morning! I can't ram a jumbo jet into a heavily populated area of innocent people! However will I cope?!"

I really don't think those are things that should ever be allowed, and if you're miserable because you can't do them, you have a lot more problems than just not being able to do them.

smcmike

2015-08-03, 01:03 PM

"Oh no, I can't abuse my wife and kids! I can't murder the guy who accidentally cut me off at the stop light this morning! I can't ram a jumbo jet into a heavily populated area of innocent people! However will I cope?!"

I really don't think those are things that should ever be allowed, and if you're miserable because you can't do them, you have a lot more problems than just not being able to do them.

You misread me. Preventing an abuser from abusing is a good thing, but it hardly prevents him from going on making himself and anyone around him miserable. Similarly, I'd be very wary of unintended consequences. No matter how good you are at writing new rules for reality, someone somewhere will find the loopholes.

Rubik

2015-08-03, 01:08 PM

You misread me. Preventing an abuser from abusing is a good thing, but it hardly prevents him from going on making himself and anyone around him miserable. Similarly, I'd be very wary of unintended consequences. No matter how good you are at writing new rules for reality, someone somewhere will find the loopholes.It's always possible to change the rules. If someone finds a loophole that's big enough and bad enough to require a rewrite, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to simply deal with it and move on. And even if that happens, the end result is still FAR better than what we're dealing with now.

And if some people are unhappy with everyone being comfortably safe, secure, and able to focus on making their lives better and more fulfilling instead of slaving away with grunt-work for large companies that don't give a crap about them... Well, those are probably the people that are benefiting from others' misery in the current regime. So, in essence, I don't actually care about them.

Soranar

2015-08-03, 01:21 PM

I would think a warlock

considering you never meet anything stronger than a bear (I do live in Canada), eldritch blast can handle any potential threat

my STATs have almost no effect on my capabilities

Imbue item + scribe scroll and a high UMD means I have access to any spell anyway (arcane or divine)

Charm person means social interactions are a non issue

And I can create any magic item I feel would be handy to have

Plus , you know, teleportation flight and invisibility at will

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 01:25 PM

Rubik

2015-08-03, 02:27 PM

With the Chosen of Mystra SLA for 9th level pick a War Sanctum Word of Genesis. At CL 20 that creates 500 planes of existence on the first casting and a 500,000 ft radius increase to all of them per casting. Just Sanctum Wish SLA one trap of it as a Rune Circle Spell Trap Wonderous Architecture and have a little construct activating it for 1,363,636 mile radius per day of whatever kind of terrain you desire. That is about the surface area of 34,000 earths on the first day and only increasing from there.

Organic matter is the problem with demiplanes though. You can make it easily enough, but making it for that growth rate is the biggest problem without resorting to the infinite teleporting traps.

Two grass growth side effects could be added onto the Genesis for 160,000sq ft of any type of grass per casting(82sq miles per day), but that's not exponential and is split among 500 worlds... might be faster to watch grass grow normally.If the demiplanes were fast time, all you would need to do would be to add a whole bunch of seeds, saplings, and fully grown plants near sources of water. Add in several pollination species (and later, any other species that are part of a healthy ecosystem), exit the demiplane for a few [seconds/minutes/hours/days/weeks/months/years, depending on the speed of the time dilation], and then re-enter. Then, by the time you do, the various plant and animal species should have established themselves, and it's then ripe for human habitation.

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 02:47 PM

That is assuming the construct and trap aren't also on a fast time plane, which I suppose would be fine, 34,000 earths in one day normal time would take thousands of fast time plane years to populate. We could potentially set up a construct in a fast time plane with a gate or portal to trans dimensional spell trap grass growth and some of those Dark Sun spells to promote growth... could you set the time trait to be exponential?

Rubik

2015-08-03, 02:47 PM

I'd probably enforce being gestalt using the Fusion and Astral Seed powers and do some rebuilding. Then use something like lycanthropy and a thought bottle (followed by curing the lycanthropy) to break the epic cap, as well.

I'd end up with the following as a level 21 epic character:

Gestalt Side 1: Dominant ideal substitute powers ardent (magic/creation/conflict/guardian mantles) 6/warrior skald 1/ardent 4/totemist 2/martial chaos monk 2/abrupt jaunt conjuror 1/dungeoncrasher kobold fighter 2/swordsage 2/marshal 1 (motivate Intelligence)

Gestalt Side 2: Factotum 3/cloistered cleric of Mystra (or magic) 3 (knowledge/arcana/illusion domains)/illithid savant 10/legacy champion 4 (boosting illithid savant)/warblade 1

I'd take Wedded to History (Survivor) for immortality and more, Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) to boost my MLs by a huge margin, Improved Manifestation a huge number of times through item-granted feats and DCFSing to round out my power points. I'd also use illithid savant to nab the metamind's font of power, the factotum's cunning surge, the dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell (4/day), the helmed horror's spell immunity (Wish, Miracle, and Disjunction), and an ice assassin aleax's singular enemy ability.

I'd do something akin to making those traps I mentioned earlier, stick around for awhile to make sure everything goes smoothly, and then go play around in some fictional universes for awhile via an epic spell or two. The Harry Potter universe, MLP, etc. I'd just have fun and not worry about taking things too seriously.

[edit]
That is assuming the construct and trap aren't also on a fast time plane, which I suppose would be fine, 34,000 earths in one day normal time would take thousands of fast time plane years to populate. We could potentially set up a construct in a fast time plane with a gate or portal to trans dimensional spell trap grass growth and some of those Dark Sun spells to promote growth... could you set the time trait to be exponential?You could probably set up the flowing time trait. It starts out as ridiculously fast and goes either exponentially up from there or slows down at a fixed rate until it hits Earth's time frame within a certain number of years.

Of course, you could mix in timelessness with regards to certain things, such as aging.

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 03:43 PM

So we could have mr grass grower and fertilizer be in a exponentially increasingly fast flowing time plane, if we set the constant rate of increase to match the plane growths then that could work. Would also put trees on that plane for him to teleport in with the grass.

No to the timeless aging, population would definitely get out of control then and no one wants a plane filled with city.

Gestalt would be interesting, I think I'll have to give this some more serious thought when I get home and amend my answer.

Rubik

2015-08-03, 03:54 PM

I might have to amend the above slightly, as I just got an idea.

Instead of using illithid savant to cannibalize cunning surge, I think I'd rather go idiot crusader instead, using White Raven Tactics for potentially infinite turns per round.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-03, 08:36 PM

an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.The catch is that everyone has a different idea of what that would look like. What's Utopia for one person is Distopia for another. The people who don't like your specific version... well, they're going to end up spoiling it. Unless you mind control them or some such... but oh, wait: That's a secret catch, now isn't it?

Nifft

2015-08-03, 08:51 PM

The catch is that everyone has a different idea of what that would look like. Yes, but mine would win, because I'm the one with all the magic power.

What's Utopia for one person is Distopia for another. That seems really unlikely. Utopian visions have a lot of traits in common.

The way that sort of contradiction is usually portrayed in literature, it's not the actual Utopia which turns out to be Dystopian, it's the price for power and the compromises which had to be made along the way that taint the end result.

With enough power, there's no need for such compromises, and you can just skip to the end goal of free beer and angel harems for everyone.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-03, 09:14 PM

Yes, but mine would win, because I'm the one with all the magic power.Yes. But you're going to have to kill and/or mind-control a rather lot of people to get there.

That seems really unlikely. Utopian visions have a lot of traits in common.

The way that sort of contradiction is usually portrayed in literature, it's not the actual Utopia which turns out to be Dystopian, it's the price for power and the compromises which had to be made along the way that taint the end result.

With enough power, there's no need for such compromises, and you can just skip to the end goal of free beer and angel harems for everyone.You severely underestimate the variety within humankind.

Sagetim

2015-08-03, 09:25 PM

Truenaming seems like it would be pretty damn awesome IRL. Between Speak Unto The Masses, a level 20 skill bonus, and most of the people on the planet being under level 5, you could do a lot. Mass targeting with fast healing to mend people's wounds without leaving scars (scars pretty much only show up because your body doesn't heal the damage fast enough). Mass targeting to grant a construction crew an incredible boost to their skill in building things? (+5 to a craft skill check is a huge bonus for level 5 and under). Hidden Knowledge to boost someone's knowledge far beyond normal for new insights into science and the operation of the universe? (+10 to knowledge check). Energy Negation (or Greater) to allow brave individuals to run into burning buildings to try and save people? (fire resist 10, or immunity). Oh, right, and Universal Aptitude can apply to all skill checks with it's +5, not just craft, so you could potentially stack that on top of Hidden Knowledge for a +15 to knowledge checks for research. Breath of Recovery for fixing...pretty much any real world ailment short of being dead?

And, you know, Conjunctive Gate for all your gating needs. Maybe. Depending on how gates work.

What I would probably do, however, is if I could mix 3.5 and pathfinder, I'd run an Elan spell sage alternate class feature wizard into the dweomerkeeper prestige class and probably some third thing. Elan would give me baseline immortality, Greater Age Resistance and Youthful Appearance would give me eternal youth to go with the never dying of old age. A few well placed wishes with dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell ability would net me some ability score bonuses, and the spell sage class ability of dumping two spells to freehand any cleric spell of equivalent level or lower would get me any divine magic I might need. For dealing with most diseases though, I would focus on removing ability damage from the person and bolstering their saves so that their immune system could learn to fight said disease off, providing antibodies that could be harvested for making serums and what not. In extreme cases, that's when remove disease would come into play. But I get the feeling that Remove Dieases wouldn't leave any antibodies in the target that would be capable of fighting off whatever they were suffering from, allowing for easy reinfection and related real world problems.

I'd probably set up a power company too, and start using fabricate, copper, and coal to transform the carbon in the coal into a diamond line coating for super pure copper line within to get a really nice conductor. At least, that's the composition I recall from an article I read years ago. I'd look that kind of stuff up before really getting into the fabricating things to make sure I was making a useful, if prohibitively expensive, thing. I'd probably also use fabricate to synthesize a number of other tricky alloys to get some capital going so that I could buy up raw materials and thus participate in the world economy instead of just flooding it with crap.

If I could get away with it, I'd probably make a rod of unlimited fabricating using a dweomerkeeper'd wish. I think my main problem would be corporate competition and media slander.

AnonymousPepper

2015-08-03, 09:39 PM

Nifft

2015-08-03, 09:53 PM

Yes. But you're going to have to kill and/or mind-control a rather lot of people to get there.
Murder is the lazy, boring way for the uncreative to conquer.

We already live in a world where quite a lot of people have the power to kill.

None of them have ever succeeded in creating a utopia.

You severely underestimate the variety within humankind. You severely overstate.

What might be accurate is: people have different definitions of utopia, and my utopia might not be identical to everyone else's definition.

What you actually said, though, is ridiculous: my utopia is very unlikely to be the dystopia of anyone even halfway sane.

atemu1234

2015-08-03, 09:57 PM

Murder is the lazy, boring way for the uncreative to conquer.

We already live in a world where quite a lot of people have the power to kill.

None of them have ever succeeded in creating a utopia.

You severely overstate.

What might be accurate is: people have different definitions of utopia, and my utopia might not be identical to everyone else's definition.

What you actually said, though, is ridiculous: my utopia is very unlikely to be the dystopia of anyone even halfway sane.

As a 49% sane person, I find it dystopic.

Nifft

2015-08-03, 10:06 PM

As a 49% sane person, I find it dystopic.

I'd cure you of your condition with magic, but I'm sure someone would say that curing insanity is a violation of your civil right to be crazy, and that anyone who goes around curing mental disorders is being dystopian.

Hmm.

Maybe that's a curable mental disorder, too.

Sagetim

2015-08-03, 10:07 PM

People saying Wizard 20 just aren't thinking big enough. Artificer 20 is the real goal here. Sure, you expend money or XP - getting 3.PF rules to just use cash for everything is actually the better option, if you can get it - to cast your spells... but there are so many infinite money/XP loops to abuse as it is that it's utterly ridiculous in D&D, and the Artificer has access to all of them and every single spell written. Just about the only things it can't replicate, iirc, are Mysteries, Truenaming, and Warlock stuff - even Incarnum and Binding are accessible, as I recall.

Meanwhile, Wizard 20 only has a small range of spells and only access to spells on the Sor/Wiz list.

Your Art20 will be mass-producing magic items for the whole world, making L-O-D-S-OF-E-M-O-N-E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON-7v4qnHP8), having access to every spell in existence, and still enjoying the more or less invincibility of a high-level caster for as long as the cash or XP is flowing. And would eventually have a friggin' massive construct army, too.

While I agree that artificier would have a lot of power and capability at 20, I think the assumption is that you snap your fingers and bam, 20. Which means that unfortunately you don't carry over your level 1 to 19 xp pools for crafting. If you can manage, through some loans and what not, to craft an ambrosia machine to keep you supplied for crafting xp, then you could certainly manage quite a lot of things. But that's also assuming that you can shove real world money into the magic item crafting formula. As I understand it, the idea is that the gp that you spend to make a magic item involves you shopping around and buying various unnamed components. Those components may not exist in the real world. Which would be my main reason for not going artificer. Psion could be really cool too, but not for the mind raping telepathy that everyone else seems to fond of. I'd rather go for shaper, if only for quintessence, fabricate, and greater fabricate.

Other things that would help the wizard out would be the dark sun spell 'tree of life'. At least I'm pretty sure that's it's name, and I don't want to dig it up by rummaging through 2nd edition books just to find it. As an 8th level wizard spell (6th for druids) it's not all that great from a benefits perspective. At least, not for wizards. However, a cleric or druid who touches the tree gets access to a 1/day casting of heal and some assorted scrying type things. Heal is on that list though. The tree itself also sizes up to massive badass tree within a month (you have to cast it on a sapling). And if the tree is cut down, it regrows to massive size within a month. The only ways to kill it don't exist in the real world (we don't have anything that does negative energy damage or negative levels). So, with some cheap land and an investment of some saplings and 8th level spell slots, you could consistently cut the trees down and sell the lumber. Then when you have your loans paid off, you could find some hippies to try and raise a druid from, and once you have one druid that druid can teach more druids to druid things and you can open an alternative healing practice in your tree of life laden resort. Remember, tree roots will keep the land locked down, and if I remember correctly, the trees of life don't need ideal conditions to survive. With the right amount of create water abuse, you could alter the local water table in your location, plant some nice grass, and have a little oasis in the middle of whogivesacrap nowhere. With donations from people that the druid is healing you could even pay for things that you're not already doing, like running power lines, etc. And if you play your cards right, you could apply for religious status to avoid paying taxes on the donations for the healing. It's at about that point that you would need to be really careful to avoid your place becoming cult like, which is where a periapt of proof against poison and some other protections would come in handy. After all, this is assuming an arcanist build, not monk.

A level 20 monk in the real world would be pretty damn hardy. Immune to poison, disease, etc. Has, what, 20/+1 dr? Or no, that was nerfed to 10/magic. Even so, that's enough to shrug off a lot of damage. Combined with a d8 hit die, and not aging penalties to your physical stats, and you could be really hard to kill, even with a direct hit from bullets. And people trying to dogpile you are going to have a hard time beating your bab, if nothing else.

ben-zayb

2015-08-03, 10:29 PM

I'd cure you of your condition with magic, but I'm sure someone would say that curing insanity is a violation of your civil right to be crazy, and that anyone who goes around curing mental disorders is being dystopian.

Hmm.

Maybe that's a curable mental disorder, too.The assumption here is that your (or your civilizations) thought process are the standard for what's normal and "sane". Really, how many fics have already tackled the idea that humans are the diseases that planet 6538a (aka Earth) should be cured of.

So to slightly tweak Jack's statement, you severely underestimate the variety of possible sapient lifeforms in the universe. That is, in concept, I'm fine with a Tippyverse-caused Utopia as long as it remains true to its mission statement, which is a paradise for every single one regardless of their vision of utopia. Rubik's severely limited concept of what that looks like, is the one I disagree with.

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 10:29 PM

I don't think I would go Pun-pun or omnisipher but I would go TO for this since I wouldn't be worrying about what the other players or DM would do or about making the game fun with piratical lower op. That being said, Chosen of Mystra is still a must, I don't know if we're in dead magic and Wish and Genesis SLAs are very nice things to have. I would wish myself to be a Loredrake White Dragonspawn Abomination(LA buyoff with max sorc casting) Endless DWK and boost my stats +5 each as is typical with wish. This particular character will have beaten all odds to get to level 20 for all of the VoP bonus feats before shuffling them all away and breaking his vow.

Draconic 3(-3 buyoff)/Half-Dragon 3(-3 buyoff)Chosen 4(-2 buyoff)/Dragonspawn 1(-1 buyoff)/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 12/Chameleon 5//Druid 5/Chameleon 2/Arcane Hierophant 8/Druid 5

2 Flaw, 2 Racial, 7 Normal, 11 VoP, 8 Class, 1 Floating

19-3 Artisan Feats,-3 Magical Artisan, Craft Wondrous Item,-3 Completed Non-Epic Epic Destiny, Draconic Reservoir, Landlord, Human Heritage, Able Learner, Dragon Wrought, -3 War Spells.

This gives me Sorcerer 19, Druid 18, Warlock 12, Chameleon 7 casting. I can still grap a Mirror Mephit to become a god of NI divine rank if I wish to get more creation power. I can make magical items cheaply and let's pick the Nature Epic destiny so I can Wild shape into the earth and literally be the dragon that is the mountain sort of creature. I'm honestly not sure I would want to try and save Earth, I think I would get into a war sooner or later and that wouldn't be good for anyone. I would set up the aforementioned demiplanes if people wanted to leave, but I wouldn't set them up much, probably not even portals back so they couldn't be used tactically as war factories. The portals to the planes would be moving, slowly, so no one countr would always have access though the larger ones would have an advantage. I would terraform the moon. Create a massive forest and ocean, carve caves, canyons and chasms and conjure mountains to my heart's content. Create life through one of many means and just go crazy being in an RL Creative Minecraft. I would offer long life to friends and family and a few magical favors to former friends who I left on good terms with. There is one friend in particular I would give a small world mending kit since he's made a charity to dedicate his life to that endeavor.

ben-zayb

2015-08-03, 10:32 PM

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 10:35 PM

Yes, just keep wishing to be an elf and shuffle, but I want to keep it relatively simple.

MirddinEmris

2015-08-03, 10:48 PM

Druid 20, full stop. Maybe some PrC, but it is already enough. His abilities and spells usually have much bigger scale than that of other classes and his focus on manipulating forces of nature if very powerful if used IRL. Though the wildshape probably will be a bit weaker than in fantasy setting with all it's creatures.

I rarely choose this class in the game because of his extensive need for bookkeeping but if to choose for real life, i would be druid, without doubt

Rubik

2015-08-03, 10:50 PM

Chosen Initiate of Mystra is still a mustThat's why I added three cleric levels into my gestalt build above.

I don't know if we're in dead magic and Wish and Genesis SLAs are very nice things to have. I would wish myself to be a Loredrake White Dragonspawn Abomination(LA buyoff with max sorc casting) Endless DWK and boost my stats +5 each as is typical with wish. This particular character will have beaten all odds to get to level 20 for all of the VoP bonus feats before shuffling them all away and breaking his vow.I'd be rather careful about that, if I were you. VoP is still giving you the feats, even if the feats themselves have been changed. Breaking VoP gets rid of those feats, and you lose them all. Much easier to craft items that grant feats (as there are several weapon enhancements that grant such), which you can then DCFS out. No question as to whether that works, and there are ways to make all the magic items (or nonmagical devices, if you use Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) you're wearing invisible and incorporeal and yet still grant you their benefits. You can wear mundane clothing over them (or even go "naked" if you want), and nobody will know the difference. Probably not even you.

Yes, just keep wishing to be an elf and shuffle, but I want to keep it relatively simple.As with VoP above, being an elf is what's granting you the feats, which the DCFS simply change into other feats. No longer an elf? No longer have the feats. I wouldn't take the chance that that might be the case when the item route is superior in all ways, guaranteed.

Nifft

2015-08-03, 11:31 PM

The assumption here is that your (or your civilizations) thought process are the standard for what's normal and "sane". Really, how many fics have already tackled the idea that humans are the diseases that planet 6538a (aka Earth) should be cured of.

So to slightly tweak Jack's statement, you severely underestimate the variety of possible sapient lifeforms in the universe. That is, in concept, I'm fine with a Tippyverse-caused Utopia as long as it remains true to its mission statement, which is a paradise for every single one regardless of their vision of utopia. Rubik's severely limited concept of what that looks like, is the one I disagree with.

Wait, you're trying to assert that my utopia MUST depend on the opinions of every possible sapient lifeform in the universe? That's absurd.

You're the first person I've seen try to move the goalposts beyond the observable universe.

I don't really feel responsible for the happiness of all possible sapient lifeforms... do you have a good argument for why someone would want to cater to that rather broad demographic? Or is your argument just Theoretical Obstructionism?

Ruethgar

2015-08-03, 11:32 PM

Rubik

2015-08-03, 11:45 PM

It is technically Shun the Dark Chaos giving you a feat, the original source is no longer relevant. This is of course TO, but without a DM or other players to worry about I wouldn't really care if I were cheesier than this fellow (http://wss.wholesite.com/lTYzJQcS3/2kPLQQL6d/www.toromagazine.com-pizza-the-hut.jpg?size=650x375).If that's the case, VoP should still give you the original feat, even though you used the DCFS to swap it out for another, so you keep the exalted feat because you still have VoP which is still giving you that benefit, even though you swapped it out.

That makes no sense.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 12:53 AM

Wait, you're trying to assert that my utopia MUST depend on the opinions of every possible sapient lifeform in the universe? That's absurd.

You're the first person I've seen try to move the goalposts beyond the observable universe.

I don't really feel responsible for the happiness of all possible sapient lifeforms... do you have a good argument for why someone would want to cater to that rather broad demographic? Or is your argument just Theoretical Obstructionism?Doesn't have to depend on or cater to that, of course. What you do with your magic is entirely up to you. I'm just clarifying that making a Utopia based only on your vision of it, only makes it a Utopia for you and the select beings who share or overlap the same vision, while the rest thinks of it as Dystopia #3254696603 (aka Nifft's "Utopia").

Nifft

2015-08-04, 06:34 AM

Rubik

2015-08-04, 07:35 AM

Doesn't have to depend on or cater to that, of course. What you do with your magic is entirely up to you. I'm just clarifying that making a Utopia based only on your vision of it, only makes it a Utopia for you and the select beings who share or overlap the same vision, while the rest thinks of it as Dystopia #3254696603 (aka Nifft's "Utopia").I never used the word utopia. I just want to make the world a better place, and honestly, the only people who would think my changes are dystopic would be psychotics, sociopaths, and people with so much selfishness that they're willing to cause severe long-term damage to others in order to garner a short-term benefit.

In short, if they don't like it, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

The only potential sticking point for emotionally stable and healthy individuals would be enforcing the "one child only" rule, and if you want more kids, adopt them. There will still be parents who die, generally via accidents, and people who changed their minds about having kids when it's too late to actually change the situation, so there are options for people who want large families, and orphaned kids all need loving parents, so it is, at the very least, a net neutral.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 08:17 AM

If that's the case, VoP should still give you the original feat, even though you used the DCFS to swap it out for another, so you keep the exalted feat because you still have VoP which is still giving you that benefit, even though you swapped it out.

That makes no sense.

RAW often doesn't make sense. But I could lose the VoP, still enough feats to do what I've done thus far.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 09:36 AM

RAW often doesn't make sense. But I could lose the VoP, still enough feats to do what I've done thus far.Even with that, magic items can give you WAY more feats. Just with weapon abilities alone, you could get a couple thousand feats to DCFS. Pull the feats from the following:

Battleaxe of the Bull
Breaking Blade
Disarming Flail
Sword of the Glorious Pearl
Staff of Mighty Sweeping
Pearl Trident
Ioun Blade + Dark Blue Ioun Stone.
Ringblade + Poison Ring

Add a pair of warforged mighty arms grafts and some grafted wings to a kobold, along with some Extra Item Slot feats for extra arm, hand, and ring slots.

Now add all of that to gauntlets (4), armor spikes (1), a horned helm (1), sleeve blades (4), knee blades (2), a tail scythe or club (1), six chronocharms, each with a necklace of natural weapons (unarmed strike/claw/claw/bite) enhancement attached (24) and a hand of glory effect on each, wingblades (2), two elvencraft longbows with bow spikes (8), a mouthpick elvencraft longbow with a bow spike (4), boot blades (2), an animated shield for shield bashes (1) with shield spikes (1), a braid blade (1), bracers of striking (4), Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) (1), close fighting blade added to every weapon (61), and poison rings added to every weapon and ring slot (132).

Multiply that by the number of enhancements above (7) and you get a nice 1,848 feats available for DCFSing. Add to that Light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyLight)/Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyMedium)/Heavy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyHeavy) Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#shieldProficiency) for most of your classes that you can DCFS out, along with racial feats, class bonus feats, domain bonus feats (metal domain grants two, which can be nabbed through Catalogues of Enlightenment) and the various feats which grant additional feats as a side-benefit, such as Psicrystal Affinity and Obtain Familiar (each of which grants Alertness).

For those of you who don't know, a poison ring is a ring with a foldable needle on it. It's a martial weapon that delivers poison as a touch attack and deals 1 piercing damage. You can, of course, wear two rings normally, four if you take the graft and Extra Item Slot (Ring) twice. Add to that the ringblade property and the hand of glory enhancement that you've added to all of your chronocharms.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 09:55 AM

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:04 AM

Ah, so apparently the confusion stems from me saying dystopia, which you might take as an utter "anti-utopia" or "bizzaro version of utopia", where I mean simply as a hypothetical "bad place", which is sort of its literal meaning.

Let's put it this way: Is it really hard to consider the possibility of having at least one person that will view as a "bad place”, a hypothetical place where people are forbidden to have more than one heir to their DNA? How about towards a hypothetical place where people will have go through a (magical) intrusive "treatment"/"cure", conveniently called as the rather reassuring "Bestow Curse" by WoTC, which they have no personal choice to refuse? Would such people automatically strike you as psychopaths?

EDIT: I can't promise to respond in a timely/regular manner, but how about we take this to a new thread, so as not to go too far off-topic?Psychopaths are, by definition, sick, and need to be cured, for their own good as much as everyone else's.

I'm usually not a proponent of "the needs of the many," but given the nature of psychopathy, I definitely do in this case, as a psychopath's "needs" are inherently horrible and incredibly destructive and self-destructive. If you prefer, we could Plane Shift everyone with psychopathic tendencies to the lower planes. They'd fit right in. Until they were enslaved and tortured or slaughtered, just like they'd do with everyone else if they got the chance. D'you suppose they'd be happier like that?

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 10:10 AM

I already added the proficiency feats. Light from Half Dragon, Draconic, Chameleon, Arcane Hierophant, Warlock, and Druid, Medium and Shield from Druid accounts for the "8 Class" feats. I would rather avoid equipment as much as I am able. If by some mistake of my own they get into the wrong hands it could be bad. Not that I couldn't easily fix it, but for others in the span of time it takes me to notice and deal with it it could be devastating. Also I feel wrong with so much of my power relying on external sources... I have a solution though! Sculpt Self and just take NI feats to shuffle via the custom Prestige Races. There is also that little bit in A&EG that lets you just put feats on items, so you can put every feat on your items, paid for by your NI wealth as a spellcaster, and then you'd be set.

smcmike

2015-08-04, 10:16 AM

Psychopaths are, by definition, sick, and need to be cured, for their own good as much as everyone else's.

I'm usually not a proponent of "the needs of the many," but given the nature of psychopathy, I definitely do in this case, as a psychopath's "needs" are inherently horrible and incredibly destructive and self-destructive. If you prefer, we could Plane Shift everyone with psychopathic tendencies to the lower planes. They'd fit right in. Until they were enslaved and tortured or slaughtered, just like they'd do with everyone else if they got the chance. D'you suppose they'd be happier like that?

I'm not calling names here, but this strikes me as the sort of idea a psychopath might come up with.

Here's a question: if you had the ability to bestow 20 class levels on another person of your choosing, would you?

Nifft

2015-08-04, 10:19 AM

Ah, so apparently the confusion stems from me saying dystopia, which you might take as an utter "anti-utopia" or "bizzaro version of utopia", where I mean simply as a hypothetical "bad place", which is sort of its literal meaning. One of its literal meanings is in fact "anti-utopia".

If you want to back-pedal that deep into semantic ambiguity, then you've basically lost the ability to argue anything. I mean, if "dystopia" is supposed to mean nothing more than "bad place", then "utopia" means nothing more than "good place", and the real world is simultaneously both a dystopia and a utopia.

That's clearly a useless rhetorical position, and can't be what you were arguing, since you were trying to contradict the possibility of a utopia.

Just cop to the fact that you were arguing a bad position and let's all move on.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 10:22 AM

Here's a question: if you had the ability to bestow 20 class levels on another person of your choosing, would you?

Hell no! I wouldn't even trust myself to do the right thing with 20 levels despite my optimistic dream of just being a benevolent creator.

Edit: As to the Utopia/Dystopia discussion. Seal the Dream Heart by getting epic level spells or godhood as mentioned earlier in this thread. Force everyone to sleep and give them a lovely +5 to Lucid Dreaming. Vuala you have Utopia for all.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 10:26 AM

One of its literal meanings is in fact "anti-utopia".

If you want to back-pedal that deep into semantic ambiguity, then you've basically lost the ability to argue anything. I mean, if "dystopia" is supposed to mean nothing more than "bad place", then "utopia" means nothing more than "good place", and the real world is simultaneously both a dystopia and a utopia.

That's clearly a useless rhetorical position, and can't be what you were arguing, since you were trying to contradict the possibility of a utopia.

Just cop to the fact that you were arguing a bad position and let's all move on.The world is like that, yes, depending on where specifically and subjectivity. Is this somehow a surprising idea? Some people already live in what they would consider Utopia/Dystopia.
EDIT: And no, utopia is not literally "good place". You have the wrong etymological basis.

@Rubik So you do consider my 2 examples as psychopaths, because that was my query? Not wanting to be forced into taking Bestow Curse is psychopathic? Not wanting to be forced into being limited to a single biological heir is psychopathic?

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:29 AM

I'm not calling names here, but this strikes me as the sort of idea a psychopath might come up with.According to some sources in 3.5, the planes are considered utopias by their residents, no matter the alignment, because they all fit in there. A LG character in the Seven Heavens finds bliss there, as does a CE character in the Abyss. That is how they want the world to work, and that's how those worlds DO work. The fact that the CE character is likely to be tortured into insanity by those far more powerful than him is a fairly unfortunate side-effect, which isn't an issue for the average CE character because most psychopaths feel they are above such retaliation, which comes as a nasty surprise when they learn that they aren't the biggest shark in the pool.

I already added the proficiency feats. Light from Half Dragon, Draconic, Chameleon, Arcane Hierophant, Warlock, and Druid, Medium and Shield from Druid accounts for the "8 Class" feats. I would rather avoid equipment as much as I am able. If by some mistake of my own they get into the wrong hands it could be bad. Not that I couldn't easily fix it, but for others in the span of time it takes me to notice and deal with it it could be devastating. Also I feel wrong with so much of my power relying on external sources... I have a solution though! Sculpt Self and just take NI feats to shuffle via the custom Prestige Races. There is also that little bit in A&EG that lets you just put feats on items, so you can put every feat on your items, paid for by your NI wealth as a spellcaster, and then you'd be set.Just make your equipment incorporeal via Ghostform and invisible via a Chained Sequester. If you have the Ghostly Grasp feat, you'll be able to gain the benefits of all those items, and nobody else will be able to see, touch, taste, smell, or hear them. Or you could nab the ghost's manifestation property, Plane Shift to the Ethereal, and use Chained Sequester and Ghostly Grasp.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:33 AM

@Rubik So you do consider my 2 examples as psychopaths, because that was my query? Not wanting to be forced into taking Bestow Curse is psychopathic? Not wanting to be forced into being limited to a single biological heir is psychopathic?The only limitations the curses place are, basically, nonviolence against innocents, limits on terribly destructive behaviors, and attempts to make the (very alarming) overpopulation problem worse (which can be lumped into the second one).

Objecting to the first and second, yes. The third, maybe not, but it is incredibly selfish, to the point of being detrimental to everyone else. So either incredibly selfish or short-sighted, either of which is a very big NO, and can possibly be lumped into psychosis, sociopathy, or stupidity, depending on the reason.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 10:39 AM

The only limitations the curses place are, basically, nonviolence against innocents, limits on terribly destructive behaviors, and attempts to make the (very alarming) overpopulation problem worse (which can be lumped into the second one).

Objecting to the first and second, yes. The second, maybe not, but it is incredibly selfish, to the point of being detrimental to everyone else. So either incredibly selfish or short-sighted, either of which is a very big NO, and can possibly be lumped into psychosis, sociopathy, or stupidity, depending on the reason.

Alright, so this is just where we agree to disagree, and will not expound more about it, lest I break the forum rules.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:44 AM

Hell no! I wouldn't even trust myself to do the right thing with 20 levels despite my optimistic dream of just being a benevolent creator.I know a few people I wouldn't mind having that kind of power, but I wouldn't do so for someone I didn't know well and trust as a result.

I have no desire to cause pain or inconvenience to anyone more than the absolute minimum necessary for everyone to prosper (horribly selfish people aside, since the whole point of what I'd do would be to curb their behaviors), and I don't have any desire to take on the mantle of rulership. I want to be happy and to help others be happy, and I'll do what is necessary to that end. Once that part is over, I plan on having fun and enjoying myself, which are things I've never really been able to do before. I don't think the need to feel safe, secure, and happy (but not at the expense of others) is terribly selfish.

Edit: As to the Utopia/Dystopia discussion. Seal the Dream Heart by getting epic level spells or godhood as mentioned earlier in this thread. Force everyone to sleep and give them a lovely +5 to Lucid Dreaming. Vuala you have Utopia for all.Interesting way to manage it, I think. Everyone is in their own self-contained Matrix, albeit with links to others' networks. I could see being given this option as a good thing, but enforcing it regardless of what anyone wants, perhaps not. Could be a reasonable way to handle psychopaths who don't want to get better, so long as they're confined to their own dreams and can't torture others in theirs.

(Also, it's "voila," for what it's worth.)

Rakoa

2015-08-04, 10:46 AM

The only limitations the curses place are, basically, nonviolence against innocents, limits on terribly destructive behaviors, and attempts to make the (very alarming) overpopulation problem worse (which can be lumped into the second one).

Objecting to the first and second, yes. The third, maybe not, but it is incredibly selfish, to the point of being detrimental to everyone else. So either incredibly selfish or short-sighted, either of which is a very big NO, and can possibly be lumped into psychosis, sociopathy, or stupidity, depending on the reason.

Damn. I really hope you don't get access to Bestow Curse anytime soon.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:49 AM

Damn. I really hope you don't get access to Bestow Curse anytime soon.So you object to being denied the ability to torture and murder innocent people?

Wow.

atemu1234

2015-08-04, 10:49 AM

This utopia is beginning to remind me of Psychopass.

Nifft

2015-08-04, 10:51 AM

The world is like that, yes, depending on where specifically and subjectivity. Is this somehow a surprising idea? Some people already live in what they would consider Utopia/Dystopia.
EDIT: And no, utopia is not literally "good place". You have the wrong etymological basis. Are you trying to conflate literal meaning with root etymology? Because that's not how language works.

I'll just note that you've now retreated entirely into semantics arguments, and leave it at that.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:52 AM

Anyway, back to the thread topic.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 10:52 AM

So you object to being denied to the ability to torture and murder innocent people?

Wow.You present mutiple cases bundled up nicely in one package, and when someone objects possibly on "not-the-whole-thing", you assume that he/she is objecting to the worst possible choice.

@Nifft So this language you speak of only contains nonvague nonambiguous words with no possible room for mutiple definitions? That's not my definition of language.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 10:55 AM

You present mutiple cases bundled up nicely in one package, and when someone objects possibly on "not-the-whole-thing", you assume that he/she is objecting to the worst possible choice.Well, orphans do need parents, too. As I said, if people want more children, they can adopt.

You wouldn't want all the orphans to suffer, would you?

Think of the children!

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 10:59 AM

Well, orphans do need parents, too. As I said, if people want more children, they can adopt.

You wouldn't want all the orphans to suffer, would you?

Think of the children!
I already mentioned biological offspring, in case you missed. Not wanting to have nonbiological offspring but wanting to have more than one of biological ones apparently makes a person against being denied the ability to torture too...based on your rather hasty conclusion

smcmike

2015-08-04, 11:02 AM

Rubik

2015-08-04, 11:05 AM

I already mentioned biological offspring, in case you missed. Not wanting to have nonbiological offspring but wanting to have more than one of biological ones apparently makes a person against being denied the ability to torture too...based on your rather hasty conclusionWhy does anyone need more than one? I could see it if the world wasn't straining at the seams, but it is. There are already millions of people out there that are packed in like metaphorical sardines, who live in squalor, and who can't get enough food because there's no room to grow food and no work with which to make money to buy it. Sure, magic could take care of those, but instituting that with no further limits would just make the population explode even harder, which would cause other problems that magic can't really deal with. Packing everyone into extradimensional spaces could work, but those would fill up quickly, and living in a hole in space isn't exactly great, even if it is a permanent Magnificent Mansion. I'd go stir-crazy, and I don't think I'm the only one.

In the end, we'll end up with the Matrix going on. Everyone's bodies shunted into stasis pods in rows and columns, their minds shunted into some sort of linked coma dream state.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 11:10 AM

Also, fist fights are the exact same as murder.

It would be too silly to go into, but there is a real question as to how you define and prevent violence.Well, I don't quite see, say, an Ultimate Fighting Championship bout to be the same as regular violence. Those are simply contestants in a contest. Yes, violence is involved, but it's not caused by a desire to actually harm someone.

A loophole? Yeah, I suppose.

But just wanting to knock someone's teeth out on the street or at work isn't enough reason to be able to actually do so, and spousal/child abuse and bullying are right out. Nobody should ever be subjected to those.

Nifft

2015-08-04, 11:14 AM

Why does anyone need more than one? I could see it if the world wasn't straining at the seams, but it is. There are already millions of people out there that are packed in like metaphorical sardines, who live in squalor, and who can't get enough food because there's no room to grow food and no work with which to make money to buy it. Sure, magic could take care of those, but instituting that with no further limits would just make the population explode even harder, which would cause other problems that magic can't really deal with. Packing everyone into extradimensional spaces could work, but those would fill up quickly, and living in a hole in space isn't exactly great, even if it is a permanent Magnificent Mansion. I'd go stir-crazy, and I don't think I'm the only one.

In the end, we'll end up with the Matrix going on. Everyone's bodies shunted into stasis pods in rows and columns, their minds shunted into some sort of linked coma dream state.

Oh, you're planning on just staying on Earth? Well, that does limit your options, and yeah population would be a major constraint.

My utopia would not be limited in that way.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 11:16 AM

Oh, you're planning on just staying on Earth? Well, that does limit your options, and yeah population would be a major constraint.

My utopia would not be limited in that way.You could offer to let people move to new worlds (including worlds you've made yourself), but you might end up having to force people to go elsewhere, regardless of what they want. That would be at least as disruptive as anything I've suggested.

Nifft

2015-08-04, 11:26 AM

You could offer to let people move to new worlds (including worlds you've made yourself), but you might end up having to force people to go elsewhere, regardless of what they want. That would be at least as disruptive as anything I've suggested.

I dunno. Having Earth still there, and still a mess, means you can use exile as a punishment.

If someone is crazy enough -- or has dissonant values to the degree that they prefer current Earth to free beer and angel harems (which is IMHO equivalent to crazy) -- then they can just go back to Earth, and they'll be happy about it.

It's a win-win.

Just give the poor unfortunate soul a Ring of Feather Falling and enough air to get home, and kick him out an airlock towards Earth. (Or let him use the teleportation circle to get back, if he's still in good standing.)

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 11:38 AM

First off, aren't you dodging explaining this poorly thought out statement?
So you object to being denied the ability to torture and murder innocent people?

Wow.It's just so irresponsibly stated, in the context of what it is responding to, that I need to bring it to your attention.

As for your point concerning extra offspring, is a needs-fulfilled world really what your vision of a Utopia's bare minimum? That's interesting, because wants and preferences are a major part of human diversity. Not the type of utopia that I'm expecting (out of many), but that's your preference, I guess.

And really, that's why I can only scratch my head at people who think words like Utopia carry a singular, one-size fits all, definition, because I've read and heard plenty of different aspects, definitions, interpretations, and versions of what such a hypothetical place could be, and what facet/s of the world or society that it is utopic in contrast with.

edit: not to mention Angel/Devil/whatever Harems open up a whole new can of worms, especially in a context of this "saving up space" conundrum

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 11:54 AM

Rubik, how would your curse handle still borns, egg/sperm donations, and surrogacy? For that matter, imagine how damaging it would be to the psyche of all of the post op trans people's of the world who you suddenly, and perpetually, regenerated back.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 12:01 PM

First off, aren't you dodging explaining this poorly thought out statement?It's just so irresponsibly stated, in the context of what it is responding to, that I need to bring it to your attention.So? It's called snark. Deal with it. Or don't. It's up to you.

As for your point concerning extra offspring, is a needs-fulfilled world really what your vision of a Utopia's bare minimum? That's interesting, because wants and preferences are a major part of human diversity. Not the type of utopia that I'm expecting (out of many), but that's your preference, I guess.Why do you keep attributing "utopia" discussions to me? I didn't say I was making a utopia, I said I was taking care of major problems so that people could work on making happy lives for themselves. Hierarchy of Needs, and whatnot. Take care of the insurmountable problems so people can start building up, rather than struggling with day-to-day issues of injuries, illness, starvation, homelessness, ecological damage, and overpopulation, all of which are major problems in today's world.

I'd be solving problems. If someone disagrees with the way I do things, they are free to do so, but this is the best solution I've got. If I come up with better solutions, I'll see about implementing those, instead.

And really, that's why I can only scratch my head at people who think words like Utopia carry a singular, one-size fits all, definition, because I've read and heard plenty of different aspects, definitions, interpretations, and versions of what such a hypothetical place could be, and what facet/s of the world or society that it is utopic in contrast with.Then it's a good thing I haven't been making posts regarding utopias, isn't it.

smcmike

2015-08-04, 12:03 PM

If someone is crazy enough -- or has dissonant values to the degree that they prefer current Earth to free beer and angel harems (which is IMHO equivalent to crazy) -- then they can just go back to Earth, and they'll be happy about it.

If you can't understand why anyone would consider converting human existence into a giant extra-planetary drunken orgy with inhuman "angel" automatons to be the least bit dystopian, there isn't much to say. Was Brave New World at all dystopian for you? Wall-E?

Personally, I totally buy the idea that Utopia is a concept true to its etymological roots.

Rubik

2015-08-04, 12:06 PM

Rubik, how would your curse handle still borns, egg/sperm donations, and surrogacy?"Successful" reproduction. Stillborn children obviously don't count. Donations would count as success if they result in successful reproduction, rendering further attempts invalid. Surrogacy is a bit more complicated, but I imagine that the donors of the DNA would be the ones who count for the purposes of the curse. You can give birth to as many children as you like, so long as it's by different biological parents each time -- but those biological parents can only do so once.

For that matter, imagine how damaging it would be to the psyche of all of the post op trans people's of the world who you suddenly regenerated back.Offer freebie gender reassignment through Bestow Curse, then. It's on the expanded list of things the spell can do, and regeneration won't change that.

AvatarVecna

2015-08-04, 12:07 PM

Alright, so this is just where we agree to disagree, and will not expound more about it, lest I break the forum rules.
More
morality
arguments.

Don't mind me, just leaving this here...

Tvtyrant

2015-08-04, 12:11 PM

My suggestion is to offer a contract to people where they accept living in your utopia and move to a new planet or they can stay here and remain outside of its rules. Then no one can claim you are imposing your whims upon people, and you don't have to worry so much about pollution and over population. Everyone who wants to stay on Earth and deal with the consequences of freedom can.

I still say Warlock is the best choice, since like the Artificer they can make any magic item but also have their own at-will abilities. Worst case scenario you make a candle of invocation and wish for a ring of three wishes, so you get all of the wishes.

In the none "magic" using classes I would probably pick Monk simply for the immortality. Being able to do a number of parlor trick level stunts would be cool, but an undying outsider is the real deal.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 12:20 PM

Offer freebie gender reassignment through Bestow Curse, then. It's on the list of things the spell can do, and regeneration won't change that.

Even with the population growth culled and the percent of trans people in the population fairly low, how would you manage to keep that up in the long run as the population grew and more people had the thought of trying the other side knowing they could return with ease? Just more self replicating constructs going around and infinitely asking people if they would like to be a man, woman, hermaphrodite, etc.?

And what of other surgeries that alter the body? With many, regeneration would just undo vanity like a nose job, some would be better such as burn victims with skin grafts, but then there are people born with disfigurements such as that Indian girl in the news a while back with several arms or people with vestigial and conjoined twins that have been separated.

Tvtyrant

2015-08-04, 12:26 PM

marphod

2015-08-04, 12:29 PM

So cast the spell on a very happy person and ensure that person stays happy. Can you imagine how much ambrosia you'd get every day from, say, Pinkie Pie?

You'd first need to wish Pinkie Pie into existence.

And then somehow contain the Epic Force of Nature that is Pinkie Pie (Conjurer/Rainbow Servant/Something Something with a 20 Caster Level and at least a Divine Rank of 0. And an alter-ego of Sleipnir.)

Rubik

2015-08-04, 12:32 PM

Even with the population growth culled and the percent of trans people in the population fairly low, how would you manage to keep that up in the long run as the population grew and more people had the thought of trying the other side knowing they could return with ease? Just more self replicating constructs going around and infinitely asking people if they would like to be a man, woman, hermaphrodite, etc.? Clinics with use-activated traps would be easy to pull off. A drive-through gender reassignment clinic? Totally doable.

And what of other surgeries that alter the body? With many, regeneration would just undo vanity like a nose job, some would be better such as burn victims with skin grafts, but then there are people born with disfigurements such as that Indian girl in the news a while back with several arms or people with vestigial and conjoined twins that have been separated.More Bestow Curses? Really, that spell is ridiculously open-ended. Polymorph Any Object? That's also open-ended. Permanencied Alter Self? There are lots of spells and powers which do stuff like this which regeneration won't touch. Just keep some level of regulation to prevent abuse, and you should be fine.

And if the disfigurement isn't genetic (like conjoined twins and extra body parts tend to be, since those are twins who have fused together due to being too close while still developing), Regeneration won't alter surgical procedures. You were born with an extra arm from a conjoined twin? Removal means that Regeneration will heal you up, but the arm won't return because it wasn't introduced via DNA.

Alternatively, various spell effects alter your appearance such that you can fix those maladies in lieu of surgery, so regeneration won't mess with them.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 12:42 PM

Tvtyrant

2015-08-04, 12:46 PM

I'm pretty sure I gave a perfectly adequate way to avoid issues like that. Worst case scenario you don't apply the regeneration to a tiny number of individuals and use Alter Self to heal them from injuries and mutilations.

noob

2015-08-04, 12:58 PM

"This leads to some weirdness, honestly. It eventually gets to the point where practically everyone will be trapped on their demiplanes because there simply won't be room for even a small fraction of everyone to leave. Humans reproduce somewhere between geometrically and exponentially, and it won't take long before this is the case, and the extradimensional spaces will soon fill up and more will be needed. I wouldn't want to be stuck inside one permanently, no matter how large it is."
look at the population curves and you see as a fact it have never been exponential nor quadratic it is always something like T²*constant with local variations.
also your traps can multiply exponentially and at a much higher rate: the number of traps double every round and it is clear humans will never reach the speed of traps and so in fact over time there will be exponentially more space for each human and soon the extra dimensional space will increase faster than the light of speed so space travel is far less efficient for having space.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 12:59 PM

Rubik

2015-08-04, 01:05 PM

I suppose I'm just taking a pessimistic reading of what regeneration does. If you have a graft, extra arms fr instance, and a finger gets chopped off the extra arm, would regeneration targeted on yourself mend the malady or would you have to target the graft to regenerate it?

Also, if it goes by DNA, what of identical conjoined twins?Grafts get a bit odd, but since people won't generally have access to magical grafts, that shouldn't be much of an issue.

And I mentioned the conjoined twins issue already. The conjoin...ism? isn't coded in the DNA. They're separate individuals spliced together in the womb, the same as people with additional body parts -- it's just that in those cases, only the extra body parts of the other twin actually survive the process.

Tvtyrant

2015-08-04, 01:10 PM

As to Rubik's answer of drive-thru clinics, You would have to also make sure all of them stayed free, I can easily see people claiming them and charging for entry.

To Tvtyrant... because children with alter/disguise self at will could never end badly.

1. I assume the "make people better" aspect of the flying curses will keep this from happening. Either that or just use my system.

2. So they only activate when you turn 18, and before that you either need your parent or a counselors permission. Still tremendously better than the current system.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 01:10 PM

But as far as D&D is concerned a vestigial(or semi-vestigial) twin is a quality of the main character not a separate creature as per DMGII.

Sagetim

2015-08-04, 01:11 PM

I never used the word utopia. I just want to make the world a better place, and honestly, the only people who would think my changes are dystopic would be psychotics, sociopaths, and people with so much selfishness that they're willing to cause severe long-term damage to others in order to garner a short-term benefit.

In short, if they don't like it, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

The only potential sticking point for emotionally stable and healthy individuals would be enforcing the "one child only" rule, and if you want more kids, adopt them. There will still be parents who die, generally via accidents, and people who changed their minds about having kids when it's too late to actually change the situation, so there are options for people who want large families, and orphaned kids all need loving parents, so it is, at the very least, a net neutral.

So, while I'm not claiming to be an expert in the subject, I did pay attention to the news from time to time and heard about one of the end results of China's one child policy: the 'little princes'. That is to say, that because they only had one kid, that kid got all the attention from their mom, dad, grandparents, etc and generally turned out to be an *******. Now just to be clear, I'm not saying that all single kids become jerks or some such thing. However, it seems that the conditions that encourage them to become jerks are fulfilled by the proposed benefits and limitations. Basically, the more money and fewer children, the more likely it seems to me that the kid is going to get spoiled hard core. To that end, I would suggest a more flexible curse, limiting couples to two children and determining by lottery who gets to have a third when the world population dips below the starting number. This lets humans still engage in acts of war with one another (heal and regen won't fix someone reduced to below 10 in one hit, and we have Really deadly weapons and Really low hp). One of the main problems I can see is people trying to use fertility treatments to circumvent this by having octuplets or some such thing. I imagine the curse would spring into action at that point and kill the fetuses down until it was at the limited amount of living children born to said couple. That's pretty nasty. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the real world is complicated, and your curse would have to be wicked complicated if you wanted it to avoid being super horrible.

I'm not calling names here, but this strikes me as the sort of idea a psychopath might come up with.

Here's a question: if you had the ability to bestow 20 class levels on another person of your choosing, would you?

Yes, but. Yes, but I would only do so for certain people that I trust. I'm going on the assumption that I can do this as many times as I want, in which case I would certainly take advantage of this capability to level up people that I trust into various roles that would be helpful to the betterment of the human condition. For example, with the whole tree of life thing I was mentioning earlier, I would need some druids to take full advantage of those trees, and would be rather uncomfortable ordaining clerics (another class that can take advantage of the trees, I think).

Why does anyone need more than one? I could see it if the world wasn't straining at the seams, but it is. There are already millions of people out there that are packed in like metaphorical sardines, who live in squalor, and who can't get enough food because there's no room to grow food and no work with which to make money to buy it. Sure, magic could take care of those, but instituting that with no further limits would just make the population explode even harder, which would cause other problems that magic can't really deal with. Packing everyone into extradimensional spaces could work, but those would fill up quickly, and living in a hole in space isn't exactly great, even if it is a permanent Magnificent Mansion. I'd go stir-crazy, and I don't think I'm the only one.

In the end, we'll end up with the Matrix going on. Everyone's bodies shunted into stasis pods in rows and columns, their minds shunted into some sort of linked coma dream state.

In my experience, you need more than one kid so they balance each other out and take attention away from one another and force each other into awareness of things like sharing and other people having feelings. Also, older siblings tend to teach their younger siblings stuff, and the younger siblings get an advantage in that area (I imagine the most common example being toilet training). That's not to say that single children can't become well adjusted individuals, just that siblings provide some balancing factors that aren't present without them.

Rubik, how would your curse handle still borns, egg/sperm donations, and surrogacy? For that matter, imagine how damaging it would be to the psyche of all of the post op trans people's of the world who you suddenly, and perpetually, regenerated back.

I know it's been previously mentioned, but bestow curse would work in the situation of the gender reassignment. It's also been mentioned that other spells could do the work, but even if it weren't listed with the expanded uses of bestow curse, you could still reassign someone's gender because....the cursed belt of gender reversal is a thing. To me, at least, if there's a cursed item, then bestow curse can probably be used to duplicate the effect.

Also, I thought the example was the heal spell, not regeneration. Heal fixes damage, removes diseases, poisons, ability score damage, and so on, but it does not restore limbs, etc. So Heal isn't going to reverse any surgeries, but if it's constantly going on, you're going to have a hard time getting any work done unless the person can work in 6 second increments or something.

In any case, to get back towards the question of the topic: Wouldn't the Bard be rather potent in the real world? I mean, they might not be able to record hypnotic lyrics or some such into a digital format for distribution, but being able to hit over a dc 30 consistently with perform checks, without digital editing or shenanigans, seems like it would be really handy. I figure the main problem would be finding others who could keep up with you musically, but that's where inspiring skill bonuses in your band mates would come in handy, or tapping people to make them also level 20 bards. And the beautiful thing about bards is that in making them, you don't have to worry about one of them deciding that they want to drastically alter the fabric of reality by imposing a post scarcity economy or something, especially if you determined their build when you gave them 20 levels.

Bad Wolf

2015-08-04, 02:11 PM

Y'know, maybe you shouldn't fix yourself up as supreme ruler of the world and just keep to yourself, seems too complicated.

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 02:18 PM

Y'know, maybe you shouldn't fix yourself up as supreme ruler of the world and just keep to yourself, seems too complicated.

... so says the one who became the ultimate manipulator of time and rewrote reality. Bad puppy! But seriously, god-like powers of creation are pretty much the only thing I've ever consistently wanted throughout my life, so I would go with my aforementioned position and not meddle with humanity too much apart from the demi-planes for overpopulation and a few enhancements for friends and family.

Hiro Protagonest

2015-08-04, 02:45 PM

Hell no! I wouldn't even trust myself to do the right thing with 20 levels despite my optimistic dream of just being a benevolent creator.

The only reason I'd give myself 20 class levels is because I basically have no ambition. :smalltongue:

atemu1234

2015-08-04, 02:47 PM

Obviously the solution is Ice Assassin + Mind Rape. Troops!

Ruethgar

2015-08-04, 02:52 PM

Obviously the solution is Ice Assassin + Mind Rape. Troops!

Isn't it always?

Sagetim

2015-08-04, 02:59 PM

Isn't it always?

no. *sprays with holy water*

Rubik

2015-08-04, 03:08 PM

The only reason I'd give myself 20 class levels is because I basically have no ambition. :smalltongue:All it takes is a level in wizard plus Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity) and some elephants, and you can gain enough levels in a week or two to afford a thought bottle (or a couple of days, if you add in Scribe Scroll, a metamagic reducer, and Sanctum Spell for RoS as a level 0 cantrip on a spell scroll). Add Curse of Lycanthropy and Remove Curse to your spellbook and you can cheat your way up to epic levels a few minutes after that.

So, yeah. Minus crafting time, you can totally go from a level 1 wizard to epic in a day or two.

Sagetim

2015-08-04, 04:06 PM

All it takes is a level in wizard plus Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity) and some elephants, and you can gain enough levels in a week or two to afford a thought bottle (or a couple of days, if you add in Scribe Scroll, a metamagic reducer, and Sanctum Spell for RoS as a level 0 cantrip on a spell scroll). Add Curse of Lycanthropy and Remove Curse to your spellbook and you can cheat your way up to epic levels a few minutes after that.

So, yeah. Minus crafting time, you can totally go from a level 1 wizard to epic in a day or two.

Doesn't precocious apprentice require spontaneous arcane casting, and thus sorcerer? Or, even just straight up sorcerer 1?

Morcleon

2015-08-04, 04:08 PM

Doesn't precocious apprentice require spontaneous arcane casting, and thus sorcerer? Or, even just straight up sorcerer 1?

Nope. Just arcane caster level 1.

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15

Troacctid

2015-08-04, 04:16 PM

I think this question is a lot less interesting if you're level 20, because that just means the only real answer is "Get as much magic as possible." It's much more compelling if you assume you're at a lower level.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-04, 06:11 PM

Murder is the lazy, boring way for the uncreative to conquer.

We already live in a world where quite a lot of people have the power to kill.

None of them have ever succeeded in creating a utopia.

"The power to kill" and "The power to kill anyone, anywhere, essentially instantly, in groups by criteria, with no way to evade," are very different things. The first is what a lot of people have (and always have had) to varying degrees. The second is what a 20th level Full Caster could arrange in real life if they were they only such.

You severely overstate.

What might be accurate is: people have different definitions of utopia, and my utopia might not be identical to everyone else's definition.

What you actually said, though, is ridiculous: my utopia is very unlikely to be the dystopia of anyone even halfway sane.
Unless you do severe levels of mind control and/or mass execution and/or mass imprisonment, there will always be at least one item in at least one of two sets:
Set A: Every activity X such that that you think Activity X is perfectly OK and let everyone do, that some segment of the population is dead-set against (as in, they consider it murder, and will fight to stop it).
Set B: Every activity Y such that you think Activity Y is evil and stop everyone from doing, that some segment of the population is dead-set for (as in, they'll fight to be permitted to do so).

So unless you're killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling that 'some segment of the population', there WILL be trouble in paradise. And if you are killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling that 'some segment of the population', then you've created a distopia for that 'some segment of the population'.

I could easily give multiple examples - both current and historical - of things where one segment of the population considers/considered a thing perfectly OK and stopping people from it is tantamount to slavery, another thinks/thought it is/was murder-level evil, with members of both factions that consider/considered violence a perfectly acceptable solution to the 'tantamount to slavery' or 'murder-level evil' of the other group... but real-world stuff is against forum rules.

You could try to isolate everyone in their own private paradises... but people are social critters, and will seek each other out to interact. Denying them that just causes a different form of dystopia.

Don't get me wrong: It'd be ENTIRELY possible to greatly improve the situation. But utopia for all? Not possible (without killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling non-trivial segments of the population, anyway).

Rubik

2015-08-04, 06:34 PM

Don't get me wrong: It'd be ENTIRELY possible to greatly improve the situation. But utopia for all? Not possible (without killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling non-trivial segments of the population, anyway).That's why I haven't even considered creating a utopia, despite some people insisting that I have been. What I have done is considered a number of problems humanity is currently facing and how to fix them, as well as how to empower people so they can turn their lives into their own private utopias, because they have a better chance at succeeding at being happy.

ben-zayb

2015-08-04, 07:48 PM

So? It's called snark. Deal with it. Or don't. It's up to you.Snark all you want, because that's not my point. The point is you misaiming accusations to reinforce your point, Miko style, fortunately minus the "slash". "You are against having only one biological kid? Clearly you are against preventing murder, too!"
...Then it's a good thing I haven't been making posts regarding utopias, isn't it.Yep:

Though I don't believe in "honest for real no secret catch Utopias," so that's out. But making the world a bit better would be nice.You don't have access to D&D magic and its infinite uses. Free energy, no injury or disease, solutions to every major problem humanity is currently dealing with, and (relatively) noninvasive ways of curbing poor behaviors before they even start. Yes, my suggestions above do stomp on some aspects of free will, but some aspects of free will need to be stomped on. It still leaves most people relatively untouched and only curbs those aspects of free will that are actively harmful to everyone.

And it's not like it's a 1984 scenario. No Big Brother watching over you, no paranoia. Just a few spell effects that fairly harmlessly prevent needless violence against innocent people and cure mental health problems.Directly comparing/contrasting yours with a no secret catch type of utopia is definitely not a post regarding utopia.

Don't mind me, just leaving this here...Yeah, the problem with that is you are confusing "Rubik" for "ben-zayb".

5ColouredWalker

2015-08-04, 09:06 PM

Sagetim

2015-08-05, 02:10 AM

A level 18 Human Impossible Bloodline Sorcerer.

The only optimization I need are an arbitrary number of combined sorcerer pearl of power equivalents [Runic somethings] and pages of spell knowledge. Oh, and let's make them a tattoo, because why not. Oh, also including things like the ioun stone of immortality.
And due to the wording of spontaneous generation, I know every Wizard/Sorcerer, plus all the ones I made up [Without having to research them, just craft them].

So, now I have a little tattoo on one wrist, assuming I'm not hiding it, that when combined with my class abilities, gives me unlimited power. Beyond that, I look like average joe.

Edit:
Having read through the thread, there's a couple of problems with your utopia Rubik:
Each family can have 1 child. Population growth has suddenly dropped from the current real world values, to at most halving the population every generation. Assuming you're passing around free True Resurrection and Agelessness, you've just capped your population, if not you've just doomed the Human race. [Yes, you can fix it, but given that you've caused the extinction of the human race as presented as base, I don't want you running the show.]

If you capped it at 1 child max, with each birth counting as 1/2 to the father and mother, you now have near self-sustaining. In the modern world however, you need at least 2.1 children/family to maintain population in 1st world countries, so unless you're passing out free resurrection, you've still killed the human race.

Extra Edit: If stuck to one class ability, there's a dragon ascendent in 3.5, the capstone of the class gives you divine rank 0. That's not reliant on HD, which I'm not sure I have, and while I may not be able to do much with it, if I can somehow create a cult, I'll start moving up divine ranks. Grab Alter reality, and now I have UNLIMITED POWER!

I have to agree that cursing the population to limit the birth rate to 1 per couple could cause some issues for the human race, But we're not that monogamous as a group. There are a Lot of people who engage in affairs, and while it would become a lot more obvious when your wife's second successful pregnancy isn't yours, it would allow for the bypassing of the curse. So, basically...being a swinger would be encouraged by the curses/traps/etc. No worries about STD's, a maximum of one successful pregnancy with a given partner, etc, seems to encourage people to get promiscuous. Especially if they want more than one kid. That said, in the very long term, the curse would be potentially detrimental to the gene pool. Dungeons and Dragons isn't really scientificially precise in what it considers a disease. Are diseases viruses? Bacteria? Genetic Disorders? I mean, in the middle ages ish setting of DND, disease covers a wide array of stuff that it doesn't necessarily cover these days. Does Remove Disease fix Scurvy (malnourishment)? If we can assume that Remove Disease fixes anything that would have been called a disease or sickness in a dnd setting, then inbreeding isn't a problem. Incest being icky taboo aside (or super kinky depending on your point of view) the genetic problems that crop up could be considered a disease by dnd standards where they would be considered genetic disorders by modern standards. To continue this line of reasoning, pedophelia might fit under dnd definitions of a disease, along with other things that would be classified as mental disorders in the modern day. So if Remove Disease also fixes mental diseases, then you don't need to worry about regulating psychotics, because they would be fixed by the magical health care. However, if Remove Disease operates under a modern understanding of diseases, then it's going to be more limited in what it fixes. This would mean that the one child per couple policy might put a long term limit on the genetic diversity of the gene pool.*

I keep mentioning Remove Disease because it's the lowest level spell that fixes the diseased condition. Heal also does that, and as I recall Heal was the spell that would be used for general healthcare in the theoretical set up.

*as I kept writing this paragraph, I got unsure of how the math might play out in the extreme long term, the one child per couple thing might increase diversity in the gene pool. I'm not sure and I'm too tired to think it out right now.

As for the Dragon Ascendant thing: That's freaking awesome. Being able to hit divine rank 0 would be a fantastic achievement. And I don't see you having many problems in reaching higher ranks by starting a new religion (cult based around your magic slinging character). After all, you'd have real magic to use to promote your new way and the entire population to potentially draw from. Getting a few hundred believers probably wouldn't be much of a problem. I do wonder if you could somehow combo that with Thrallherd though, because their followers are actually called Believers already and it's implied that they have faith in and would be willing to worship the thrallherd.

Tiri

2015-08-05, 03:53 AM

Warlock, for the unlimited magic and because I likely have no mental stats above 12.

Rubik

2015-08-05, 08:00 AM

I have to agree that cursing the population to limit the birth rate to 1 per couple could cause some issues for the human race, But we're not that monogamous as a group. There are a Lot of people who engage in affairs, and while it would become a lot more obvious when your wife's second successful pregnancy isn't yours, it would allow for the bypassing of the curse.How does "reproduce with a different person" bypass "may only ever have one child of your own"?

So, basically...being a swinger would be encouraged by the curses/traps/etc. No worries about STD's, a maximum of one successful pregnancy with a given partner, etc, seems to encourage people to get promiscuous.Nope. Unless you count the non-risk of pregnancy and STDs (and thus, some of the consequences of promiscuity) to promote it. It removes some of the stick, not the carrot. So not "promotes" as much as "does not discourage."

Of course, if both partners have no problems with an open relationship, this is a good thing.

Especially if they want more than one kid. That said, in the very long term, the curse would be potentially detrimental to the gene pool.Despite our proficiency at breeding, a given human can only reproduce so many times. Going from a gene pool of ~10 billion to ~1 million isn't exactly going to cause major harm, especially since there are species whose entire breeding pool is less than 1% of that, and they have solid breeding pools, especially given the wealth of human diversity that exists.

Dungeons and Dragons isn't really scientificially precise in what it considers a disease. Are diseases viruses? Bacteria? Genetic Disorders? I mean, in the middle ages ish setting of DND, disease covers a wide array of stuff that it doesn't necessarily cover these days.

Does Remove Disease fix Scurvy (malnourishment)? If we can assume that Remove Disease fixes anything that would have been called a disease or sickness in a dnd setting, then inbreeding isn't a problem. Incest being icky taboo aside (or super kinky depending on your point of view) the genetic problems that crop up could be considered a disease by dnd standards where they would be considered genetic disorders by modern standards. I believe that a healthy breeding pool needs fewer than 100 members of sufficiently different genetics in order to avoid inbreeding and genetic issues. ~1 million is WAY beyond that.

And Remove Disease (and Heal) may fix the signs and symptoms of scurvy for a time, but it won't fix the base cause. Luckily, I've already accounted for that with the Magnificent Mansion traps.

To continue this line of reasoning, pedophelia might fit under dnd definitions of a disease, along with other things that would be classified as mental disorders in the modern day. So if Remove Disease also fixes mental diseases, then you don't need to worry about regulating psychotics, because they would be fixed by the magical health care.Already accounted for that.

However, if Remove Disease operates under a modern understanding of diseases, then it's going to be more limited in what it fixes. This would mean that the one child per couple policy might put a long term limit on the genetic diversity of the gene pool.*One person can only successfully breed once. Not once per couple. You give birth to a child of your own, using your own DNA, you cannot have another. You sire a child using your own DNA, you cannot have another. At least for a few generations, depending on how death rates stack up to birth rates. If something happens and much of humanity dies off (or leaves Earth for elsewhere), then the moratorium will be relaxed.

But again, genetic diversity requires a MUUUUUCH smaller gene pool than you're suggesting. Hamlets of less than 100 people in the Dark Ages somehow managed to avoid inbreeding and genetic issues. How do you suppose a million people with global travel available and medical science (and magic!) will suddenly have difficulties with it?

*as I kept writing this paragraph, I got unsure of how the math might play out in the extreme long term, the one child per couple thing might increase diversity in the gene pool. I'm not sure and I'm too tired to think it out right now.One genetically related child per person. Not per couple.

As for the Dragon Ascendant thing: That's freaking awesome. Being able to hit divine rank 0 would be a fantastic achievement. And I don't see you having many problems in reaching higher ranks by starting a new religion (cult based around your magic slinging character). After all, you'd have real magic to use to promote your new way and the entire population to potentially draw from. Getting a few hundred believers probably wouldn't be much of a problem. I do wonder if you could somehow combo that with Thrallherd though, because their followers are actually called Believers already and it's implied that they have faith in and would be willing to worship the thrallherd.Starting a cult wouldn't be difficult, even if you didn't have divine ranks. Divine ranks don't give you much of a power boost if you've got high level T1 spellcasting, and depending on campaign setting, they give one a huge weakness, since losing one's worshipers can destroy you.

Nifft

2015-08-05, 08:00 AM

"The power to kill" and "The power to kill anyone, anywhere, essentially instantly, in groups by criteria, with no way to evade," are very different things. The first is what a lot of people have (and always have had) to varying degrees. The second is what a 20th level Full Caster could arrange in real life if they were they only such. I guess that magic makes more kinds of murder available, but murder is still not really interesting to me.

Except as a game mechanic, of course. I do like D&D. But D&D and real life are different.

Unless you do severe levels of mind control and/or mass execution and/or mass imprisonment, there will always be at least one item in at least one of two sets:
Set A: Every activity X such that that you think Activity X is perfectly OK and let everyone do, that some segment of the population is dead-set against (as in, they consider it murder, and will fight to stop it).
Set B: Every activity Y such that you think Activity Y is evil and stop everyone from doing, that some segment of the population is dead-set for (as in, they'll fight to be permitted to do so).
Not sure why you think I'm required to invite those people.

I do think basically all sane people would prefer my utopia to current Earth conditions, but I know from experience that plenty of people would object to being coerced into basically anything, even if the new thing was objectively better by every measurable criteria.

So unless you're killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling that 'some segment of the population', there WILL be trouble in paradise. And if you are killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling that 'some segment of the population', then you've created a distopia for that 'some segment of the population'. Leaving the losers on Earth would be a fine "exile". Also very easy since that's where they already are.

Don't get me wrong: It'd be ENTIRELY possible to greatly improve the situation. But utopia for all? Not possible (without killing/imprisoning/exiling/mind-controlling non-trivial segments of the population, anyway). Well, the only thing I've asserted is that it's utopia for ~me~, and not dystopia for anyone else.

I'd like to think that it's possible to build a universal human utopia, but that would require universally good sense among humans, and that's really beyond the scope of my ambitions.

- - -

Let's Get Practical

Screening Applicants

Divination magic for screening utopia applicants. I'm pretty sure that detect chaos / evil / good / law would not be sufficient, if it even worked on Earth humans.

Detect thoughts + discern lies + a list of interview questions might be better. A bound Deva (Monadic or Movanic) could provide discern lies at-will, and presumably also handle the interviewing process -- especially a Monadic, with her +19 Diplomacy and +16 Sense Motive. That'll take care of people trying to hide their past behavior and discovering infiltrators, but those are hopefully a vanishingly small minority.

Space Habitat Construction

The goals are pretty simple:
- Get a lunar base up & running
- Establish teleport circles to & from the lunar base
- Use the lunar base to construct at least one O'Neill cylinder

Getting specialized materials to the Moon seems pretty easy, since many Outsiders can greater teleport with up to 50 lbs. of materials. That'll do for topsoil and atmosphere, but it seems inefficient

However, a shortcut to lunar base construction might be to use fabricate on the raw regolith. Is that a valid material component for the spell? On the one hand, regolith is just sitting around for free. On the other hand, moon rocks have a high market value on Earth.

The larger sticking point might be the Craft checks necessary, since the Moon base parts and O'Neill parts seem like the sorts of things that would "require a high degree of craftsmanship".

How to get a high Craft (space habitat) check?
- Have a high Intelligence bonus
- Custom magic item +10 competence
- Be an Anima Mage and bind Astaroth, the Unjustly Fallen +4 (... and this guy also helps with custom magic item crafting)
- Put ranks in... I guess, as a last resort.
What else?

Disturbed01

2015-08-05, 12:28 PM

Sorcerer : Arcane Fusion, Greater + Metamagic Reducer = Ultimate Blaster :smallyuk:

Vaz

2015-08-05, 01:08 PM

Diplomancer. Peace in the Middle East, bra.
Better than arseplomancer

Jack_Simth

2015-08-05, 05:43 PM

I guess that magic makes more kinds of murder available, but murder is still not really interesting to me.

Except as a game mechanic, of course. I do like D&D. But D&D and real life are different.

Not sure why you think I'm required to invite those people.

I do think basically all sane people would prefer my utopia to current Earth conditions, but I know from experience that plenty of people would object to being coerced into basically anything, even if the new thing was objectively better by every measurable criteria.

Leaving the losers on Earth would be a fine "exile". Also very easy since that's where they already are.

Context:
What kicked this thread of conversation off was my response to:

turn the world into an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.
Which was:

The catch is that everyone has a different idea of what that would look like. What's Utopia for one person is Distopia for another. The people who don't like your specific version... well, they're going to end up spoiling it. Unless you mind control them or some such... but oh, wait: That's a secret catch, now isn't it?You have now demonstrated that you are outside the context of my comments. A small-scale utopia? Totally possible with the resources available to a 20th level D&D Full Caster that knows how to optimize. Well, at least until ethics divergence happens later on down the road (and it will, eventually). Worldwide? Not going to be catchless.

5ColouredWalker

2015-08-05, 06:57 PM

@ 1 Per couple: That wasn't the wording, which I why I said 'You doomed the human race'. If it was 1 per couple, it'd at most cause a short term collapse and a massive society change.

Starting a cult wouldn't be difficult, even if you didn't have divine ranks. Divine ranks don't give you much of a power boost if you've got high level T1 spellcasting, and depending on campaign setting, they give one a huge weakness, since losing one's worshipers can destroy you.

No, if it's just that ability no spellcasting. However once I hit teir 1 and gain Alter reality [Quite possible, given modern cults.], I'd quickly become basically god., if just by creating mindless worshipers.

The problem is actually starting the cult.

Rubik

2015-08-05, 07:20 PM

@ 1 Per couple: That wasn't the wording, which I why I said 'You doomed the human race'. If it was 1 per couple, it'd at most cause a short term collapse and a massive society change.Yes, because people only having a single child apiece will totally herald the immediate collapse of all of society.

The problem is actually starting the cult.A televised half-hour with boosted Diplomacy will work, if you can't get your hands on a repeating, self-reproducing trap of Suggestion or Charm Person.

torrasque666

2015-08-05, 07:24 PM

Yes, because people only having a single child apiece will totally herald the immediate collapse of all of society.
Well given that the population will be halved each generation...

Rubik

2015-08-05, 07:33 PM

Well given that the population will be halved each generation...You might want to rethink that a bit. The majority of the ten billion people currently alive in the world will still be alive, along with an additional 50% of everyone capable of (and of a mind to be) breeding. Then subtract the number of people who die a generation after that from the number of new people born (which will be FAR fewer), and we have an even larger population than we have now. And since people will largely be surviving each generation due to constant exposure to Heals and Regenerates, as well as extremely nutritious food and good housing, we'll have anywhere from 4-5 generations (or even more) alive at any given time.

We're only halving the number of breeding couples, which can then be stabilized once we're at around a million or so couples, while the older generations slowly die out due to old age.

It won't be anywhere near as traumatic as, say, forcible surgical sterility or concentration camps or whatever. Hell, you could even toss out a Suggestion spell on the repeating traps so that the populace at large doesn't even notice the change. So no idiots rioting in the streets and causing property damage or blaming someone innocent for their so-called "misfortune." Not really of a mind for mind-control, but it'd only be an issue if people start being stupid. And you KNOW they will.

Tvtyrant

2015-08-05, 07:41 PM

Well given that the population will be halved each generation...

So 11 generations to hit around 1,000,000 people (going from 8 billion) or at least a 1,000 years considering that the population receives constant and better medical attention than we have. And then 10 more generations to get to dangerous levels (4,000). So anywhere in the next 2,000 years you need to adjust from 1 to 2ish (better off at 2.1) and you are golden.

smcmike

2015-08-05, 07:43 PM

Yeah, Rubik wins the award for the one I least want to become a god.

torrasque666

2015-08-05, 07:43 PM

You might want to rethink that a bit. The majority of the ten billion people currently alive in the world will still be alive, along with an additional 50% of everyone capable of (and of a mind to be) breeding. Then subtract the number of people who die a generation after that from the number of new people born (which will be FAR fewer), and we have an even larger population than we have now. And since people will largely be surviving each generation due to constant exposure to Heals and Regenerates, as well as extremely nutritious food and good housing, we'll have anywhere from 4-5 generations (or even more) alive at any given time.

We're only halving the number of breeding couples, which can then be stabilized once we're at around a million or so couples, while the older generations slowly die out due to old age.

It won't be anywhere near as traumatic as, say, forcible surgical sterility or concentration camps or whatever. Hell, you could even toss out a Suggestion spell on the repeating traps so that the populace at large doesn't even notice the change. So no idiots rioting in the streets and causing property damage or blaming someone innocent for their so-called "misfortune." Not really of a mind for mind-control, but it'd only be an issue if people start being stupid. And you KNOW they will.
Still doesn't change the fact that you end up with a 50% birthrate. Anything less than 100% causes a population decline eventually. Say we have approximately 10 billion people right now, evenly split. 10 billion people that can only have 1 kid. Not 1 kid per couple, as you made clear earlier, but 1 kid. Permanently. That's 10 billion people who only caused a 50% increase in population and once the oldest generation dies off permanently (through old age) you've then just lost that many people, probably 10-20% of the population.

TL;DR People may live longer, but with only 1 kid per person, you're halving the population of each subsequent generation regardless.

Rubik

2015-08-05, 07:48 PM

Still doesn't change the fact that you end up with a 50% birthrate. Anything less than 100% causes a population decline eventually.Well, yeah. It's a solution to overpopulation, so reducing the population is kind of the whole point.

Say we have approximately 10 billion people right now, evenly split. 10 billion people that can only have 1 kid. Not 1 kid per couple, as you made clear earlier, but 1 kid. Permanently. That's 10 billion people who only caused a 50% increase in population and once the oldest generation dies off permanently (through old age) you've then just lost that many people, probably 10-20% of the population.

TL;DR People may live longer, but with only 1 kid per person, you're halving the population of each subsequent generation regardless.Yep. Which is the point.

The curse will then be altered to 2 children in 10 generations or so so as to keep the population steady after that. Any sharp declines will require boosting that number by a bit, of course.

Rubik

2015-08-05, 07:52 PM

Yeah, Rubik wins the award for the one I least want to become a god.I feel honored that I beat out people like Hitler and Kim Jong-un, because wanting to solve major world problems is worse than being an evil, violent dictator.

If you have any intelligent suggestions on how to do it better with no nightmarish side-effects (such as having the entire population trapped inside demiplanes and packed like sardines), I'm all ears.

[edit] On second thought, I think it's about time to abandon this conversation. We're getting to dangerous territory as far as the CoC is concerned.

CIDE

2015-08-05, 07:55 PM

Going by RAW and online supplements (though strongly DM discretion) D20 Modern/Future can be used. If that's the case I'd also have myself a space ship and super magi/psitech and have additional methods for becoming Pun-Pun without any work. Could even do it with my previous psi build. Either way I accomplish my goals only now I can fly around in my captain's chair. So much win.

smcmike

2015-08-05, 08:03 PM

I feel honored that I beat out people like Hitler and Kim Jong-un, because wanting to solve major world problems is on par with being an evil, violent dictator.

If you have any intelligent suggestions on how to do it better with no nightmarish side-effects (such as having the entire population trapped inside demiplanes and packed like sardines), I'm all ears.

If Kim Jong-un is on this thread (unlikely, but who knows with that guy), you can come in second.

My bet is that if you really want to be an interventionist (and I don't think I would), raising the living standard and making sure every woman in the world has full control over her reproduction would end population growth.

Nifft

2015-08-05, 08:04 PM

Context:
What kicked this thread of conversation off was my response to: Wrong. What kicked this off was this comment of yours:

The catch is that everyone has a different idea of what that would look like. What's Utopia for one person is Distopia for another. The people who don't like your specific version... well, they're going to end up spoiling it. Unless you mind control them or some such... but oh, wait: That's a secret catch, now isn't it? (emphasis added)

That specific false-binary fallacy is where we disagree.

You have now demonstrated that you are outside the context of my comments. If you're retracting the false-binary fallacy, which seems rather encompassing in its context, then I guess you can redefine your context to not apply to me or my ideas.

If that's what you're trying to do, I'd find that acceptable.

5ColouredWalker

2015-08-05, 08:07 PM

Yes, because people only having a single child apiece will totally herald the immediate collapse of all of society.

A televised half-hour with boosted Diplomacy will work, if you can't get your hands on a repeating, self-reproducing trap of Suggestion or Charm Person.

1: That's not what I said. Just that you set it on the course, you can fix it, but once you set that up I immediately stop trusting you, and you become a tyrant instead of a benevolent dictator.
Japan [I think, might be a different Asian country] started having problems within 1 generation of 1 child/family, and that was only legally enforced, not magically enforced. Sure, maybe less problem in places without social pressures to produce male children, but what you've done means that humanity will eventually 'breed out'.
Also, every time there might be twins/triplets etc, you've just murdered someone for reasons outside of their control [Based off the spells wording, the other twins wouldn't die until the first was birthed, and while it's not murder in some jurisdictions until first breath, most will still call it murder.]. Again, you become Tyrant instead of Dictator.

2: If I can do that, I'm a level 18 Impossible Sorcerer with a tattoo instead for ease. If I stick to the original question however, then I'm just a regular joe, who's got few friends, 20, with no money, trying to start a cult. It's not exactly going to be an easy start.

If you have any intelligent suggestions on how to do it better with no nightmarish side-effects (such as having the entire population trapped inside demiplanes and packed like sardines), I'm all ears.

Simple, just increase standard of living.
It's been found that in places with high standards of living people naturally limit themselves to 1-2 children, with outliers such as religious groups who are against limits on reproduction [I.e. Condoms + Abortions] and the poor. Large families are mostly a way to ensure the parents have someone to support them in old age, and to counter deaths due to people acting like idiots and natural causes.

You have a way to provide unlimited space and resources. The human population will naturally stabilize to either a tiny growth percentage, and given how fast traps can make objects and space, there's no need to limit breeding. Your biggest problem will be someone else with the power also handing out immortality, or science figuring it out, in which case you just turn the traps on again.

-snip-

Ok, so you want to cut down the population to a few million... Which'll wipe out entire cultures, and institute mind control [Suggestion, which is a mind affecting spell that controls what they think and do.] while saying 'it's not really mind control'.

Do you not see how you sound like a tyranical dictator at this point?

Jack_Simth

2015-08-05, 08:25 PM

Wrong. What kicked this off was this comment of yours:
(emphasis added)

That specific false-binary fallacy is where we disagree.

I was working in the context of 'utopia for everyone'.

In that context, there WILL be someone for some aspect of your idea of utopia is pretty much diametrically opposed to what they think is right in at least one thing that they are all in on. Moreover, there will be respectable numbers of such people.

When you narrow it down from "utopia for everyone" - which is the context to which I was responding, even if you don't see it that way (I'm pretty sure I'm an expert on what my intent was and what I was responding to) - then it would be feasible with sufficient optimization of D&D style resources at the level under discussion for some subset of everyone. You know, provided you can effectively get out of reach of the people that will spite you (which you can).

You didn't mention anything about 'not everyone' until recently (at least, not that I saw). Once it was clear you weren't referring to taking the whole world along for the ride? The same principles no longer apply, and I said so.

I retract nothing. You misunderstood my intent. There WILL be someone who considers your idea of utopia a form of dystopia. However, if you're not bringing everyone along for the ride, it's irrelevant, as you're simply getting away from them.

Nifft

2015-08-05, 08:35 PM

I retract nothing. You misunderstood my intent. There WILL be someone who considers your idea of utopia a form of dystopia.

Your intent still sounds like the exact same false-binary fallacy to which I had originally objected, but if you're back-pedaling into a position which doesn't conflict with me due to some new detail or nuance you've just now added, that's cool.

As an aside: it's kinda amusing that you claim nobody else could understand you better than yourself while you simultaneously claim to know what I do and don't understand.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-05, 08:58 PM

Your intent still sounds like the exact same false-binary fallacy to which I had originally objected, but if you're back-pedaling into a position which doesn't conflict with me due to some new detail or nuance you've just now added, that's cool.
If you think I'm backpedaling, then you misunderstand.

There will be someone who hates your idea of utopia.
There will be someone who dislikes your idea of utopia.
There will be someone who doesn't much care about your idea of utopia.
There will be someone who likes your idea of utopia.
There will be someone who loves your idea of utopia.

However, it's the chap what hates it that'll cause a problem, so that's where I focused. I only bothered to mention him. The person I initially responded to specifically was after worldwide utopia with no catches. That scenario is going to have a catch of some kind due to the group that hates the form chosen, simply because there is that much variety in humanity.

As an aside: it's kinda amusing that you claim nobody else could understand you better than yourself while you simultaneously claim to know what I do and don't understand.
You've made it very, very clear you didn't actually understand the intended context of my earlier statements.

Seriously:
Go through what I posted.
Consider that with the post to which you were responding, I was responding to someone who was saying they'd make a worldwide utopia.
Figure out where the first spot you explicitly mentioned that you weren't going to take everyone with you to your utopia is located (at least, after my post responding to the person who was going for a worldwide version).
Then read my VERY NEXT POST IN THIS THREAD.

Do you agree that in the context of trying to build a worldwide utopia, there WILL be someone who hates it with a burning passion?

Nifft

2015-08-05, 09:18 PM

If you think I'm backpedaling, then you misunderstand.
Nah, I understand your point. It's just that your point is a bad point, and you're wrong.

Do you agree that in the context of trying to build a worldwide utopia, there WILL be someone who hates it with a burning passion?
Since I already explicitly said that I disagreed with that assertion, it's odd that you'd need to ask it again, but whatever.

Since you're refusing to be specific about what this hypothetical person would hate, it's difficult to engage with your point on a more specific basis.

Would you mind listing some of these specific things which you're ~certain~ would be hated?

Jack_Simth

2015-08-05, 09:54 PM

Nah, I understand your point. It's just that your point is a bad point, and you're wrong.

Since I already explicitly said that I disagreed with that assertion, it's odd that you'd need to ask it again, but whatever.

Since you're refusing to be specific about what this hypothetical person would hate, it's difficult to engage with your point on a more specific basis.

Would you mind listing some of these specific things which you're ~certain~ would be hated?
I could easily cite multiple examples, including both current and historical situations, where members of group A don't like what group B considers their right, where there are members of both groups who are willing to use extreme measures to enforce their version of right & wrong. If people are using extreme measures, or if something prevents people from acting on what they honestly believe to be right, then there is a catch to the utopia. There is enough variety amongst humankind as a whole that you're going to need to resort to force of some form (killing / exile / mind control / et cetera) of those who "don't fit" past some threshhold to make a worldwide utopia.

However: Specific examples get into real-world politics (of necessity of being specific examples), which is explicitly against forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), so I'm not permitted to provide you with the specifics you require.

If you're grabbing a select chunk of the population, going elsewhere, and setting up a utopia there with the selected chunk of the population, then it's at least feasible if you're careful about your selected individuals - up until ethics drift becomes a problem, but with a matching starting set it'll be quite some time before the drift is a problem even if you're not deliberately trying to fight the drift, and the timeframe can be extended substantially (but not forever) if you know how without doing too much that could be labeled as a 'catch'.

Sagetim

2015-08-05, 10:33 PM

So...I think it's safe to say that there are people who are *******s in the world. For any given idea, even if it benefits them directly, it seems statisticially likely that you will find someone in opposition to it. It might be that they don't understand that it's in their best interest, or that they've been misinformed, but even if you eliminate those persons, you will probably find objectors somewhere who 'just don't like the idea' or 'are religiously opposed to it'.

If you gave everyone in the world constant heal effects, there would be detractors naysaying it on the grounds that it makes people lazy, or that it encourages reckless behavior, or (insert arguments against universal health care, even if they don't make sense). People don't make sense all the time.

So no matter what you do, if you try to make a utopia, someone is going to bitch about it somewhere and dissent and throw shade and what not. We just have that many *******s on the planet.

To get back to the subject of the thread, I think a class ability that gives you divine rank 0 is great for a real world situation. The real world does not have the kind of direct intervention of miraculous powers that dnd clerics get. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes with regards to their beliefs, but I think it's fair to say that we don't really have holy men wandering around the modern world dropping resurrections, teleporting, calling down fire from the sky and so on. So once you get enough believers that you can grant spells to anyone you decide is a cleric of you...you're set. You don't even need to establish a toxic cult of personality, because when you hit critical mass of believers, you can start giving people the power to work divine magic.

We're going to assume that you are operating unopposed. This is to try and avoid a real world religious debate. With that situation, you would either wind up with a portfolio of domains based on your personality, or could maybe claim the ones you want since there's no one to say no. To try and keep this to game mechanics: What kind of divine salient abilities would you go for? What domains? Would you put any kind of strictures on your clerics? Would you have paladins? Etc.

Nifft

2015-08-05, 11:10 PM

I could easily cite multiple examples, including both current and historical situations, where members of group A don't like what group B considers their right, where there are members of both groups who are willing to use extreme measures to enforce their version of right & wrong. If people are using extreme measures, or if something prevents people from acting on what they honestly believe to be right, then there is a catch to the utopia. There is enough variety amongst humankind as a whole that you're going to need to resort to force of some form (killing / exile / mind control / et cetera) of those who "don't fit" past some threshhold to make a worldwide utopia.

However: Specific examples get into real-world politics (of necessity of being specific examples), which is explicitly against forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1), so I'm not permitted to provide you with the specifics you require. You claimed to know that my utopia would be someone else's dystopia.

So, pick one of the non-political aspects of my utopia -- one of the many -- and talk about that. Say which one you picked, and who would find it to by dystopian.

If you don't actually know my utopia well enough to talk about anything specific, that's a valid response -- but it does call into question the validity of your assertion, since you don't actually know what you're trying to talk about.

So...I think it's safe to say that there are people who are *******s in the world. For any given idea, even if it benefits them directly, it seems statisticially likely that you will find someone in opposition to it. It might be that they don't understand that it's in their best interest, or that they've been misinformed, but even if you eliminate those persons, you will probably find objectors somewhere who 'just don't like the idea' or 'are religiously opposed to it'.

If you gave everyone in the world constant heal effects, there would be detractors naysaying it on the grounds that it makes people lazy, or that it encourages reckless behavior, or (insert arguments against universal health care, even if they don't make sense). People don't make sense all the time.

So no matter what you do, if you try to make a utopia, someone is going to bitch about it somewhere and dissent and throw shade and what not. We just have that many *******s on the planet. I'm willing to bet that I could find at least one thing to improve which would not garner dissent.

Would you put any kind of strictures on your clerics? "Thou shalt be awesome to each other."

Would you have paladins? Every night. :nale:

smcmike

2015-08-06, 06:20 AM

You claimed to know that my utopia would be someone else's dystopia.

So, pick one of the non-political aspects of my utopia -- one of the many -- and talk about that. Say which one you picked, and who would find it to by dystopian.

If you don't actually know my utopia well enough s to talk about anything specific, that's a valid response -- but it does call into question the validity of your assertion, since you don't actually know what you're trying to talk about.:

The core of your utopian ideal appears to be "free beer and angel harems." While that would appeal to a certain demographic, a lot of people might be inclined to say that immediate pleasures of the flesh lead to a dissolute and meaningless life.

Also, this sounds like a dystopia for the angels, at least.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-06, 07:35 AM

The core of your utopian ideal appears to be "free beer and angel harems." While that would appeal to a certain demographic, a lot of people might be inclined to say that immediate pleasures of the flesh lead to a dissolute and meaningless life.

Also, this sounds like a dystopia for the angels, at least.

Ah, yes, there we go.

If you try to set something like this up for everyone... you'll have group A that considers the magical minions to be nothing more than property, and be completely unwilling to give up the servants at all (the magical minions are not people). You'll have group B that considers the magical minions to be people, and the magically-compelled servitude to be a very dark form of slavery that they need to be rescued from. There will be elements of both groups that are willing to use extreme measures (B thinks they're stopping slavers; A thinks someone's trying to take away their livelihood).

The underlying problem: "Person" is a base token in ethics; either it, or the definition for it, is fundamentally assumed, and can't really be argued one way or another in a convincing manner. Sure, you can prove that the minions were created in such-and-such a manner. You can prove that they function in a particular way. So? Origins aren't generally considered relevant to how 'person' is defined. So who cares if they're a "true AI"? They're still Intelligences. Obviously, group A cares. They're Artificials, not really people.

Nifft

2015-08-06, 07:44 AM

Also, this sounds like a dystopia for the angels, at least.

Angels don't vote.

The underlying problem: "Person" is a base token in ethics; either it, or the definition for it, is fundamentally assumed, and can't really be argued one way or another in a convincing manner. Sure, you can prove that the minions were created in such-and-such a manner. You can prove that they function in a particular way. So? Origins aren't generally considered relevant to how 'person' is defined. So who cares if they're a "true AI"? They're still Intelligences. Obviously, group A cares. They're Artificials, not really people.

They're acting voluntarily, not under any coercion. Their personhood is irrelevant since they're not enslaved.

Also, the beer is not a person, and is also not enslaved. (It's enkegged.)

Next?

(This time, please try to think of an issue by yourself. After all, you're the one who claims to know so much better than me what my utopia means. If you're just leeching off the cleverness of others, that seems dissonant with your prior claims.)

smcmike

2015-08-06, 07:52 AM

Next? If you aren't going to engage with criticisms of your utopia, I don't see any reason to give you more.

Nifft

2015-08-06, 08:29 AM

Next? If you aren't going to engage with criticisms of your utopia, I don't see any reason to give you more.

I'm specifically challenging the arguments of someone who isn't you, and you're jumping into the middle of our discussion.

Once he's defeated and I've got the XP (and hopefully loot) from winning the discussion, then I'd be delighted to engage your concerns.

smcmike

2015-08-06, 08:56 AM

I'm specifically challenging the arguments of someone who isn't you, and you're jumping into the middle of our discussion.

Once he's defeated and I've got the XP (and hopefully loot) from winning the discussion, then I'd be delighted to engage your concerns.

Ok, man, whatever.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-06, 04:59 PM

Angels don't vote.

They're acting voluntarily, not under any coercion. Their personhood is irrelevant since they're not enslaved.

If they're simulacrums/ice assassins, then they're enslaved by nature of their existence - right up until someone gets rid of the caster (at which point, they're stuck with standing orders only, theoretically).
If they're Planar Bound, then they're enslaved to the terms of that spell.
If they're Dominated, then they're definitely enslaved.
If they're Diplomancied, then you'll have problems when someone does something the angels don't like, and there's enough variety amongst humankind as a whole that this WILL happen if you try to drag all of humanity along with you.

Nifft

2015-08-07, 12:31 PM

If they're simulacrums/ice assassins, then they're enslaved by nature of their existence - right up until someone gets rid of the caster (at which point, they're stuck with standing orders only, theoretically).
If they're Planar Bound, then they're enslaved to the terms of that spell.
If they're Dominated, then they're definitely enslaved.
If they're Diplomancied, then you'll have problems when someone does something the angels don't like, and there's enough variety amongst humankind as a whole that this WILL happen if you try to drag all of humanity along with you.

Is this really the only issue which you can think of? (Well, actually someone else thought of it, but you know what I mean.)

Anyway, none of those cases apply. Not one of them. When I said voluntary, it wasn't in some secretly snide sarcastic way. I actually meant it. Not bound or coerced or enslaved "volunteers", just plain normal volunteers.

Is that your final argument?

JustIgnoreMe

2015-08-07, 02:42 PM

I've clearly missed something here: which post did you define your Utopia in?

Also, are we talking literal angels literally volunteering to be in a harem?

Nifft

2015-08-07, 02:53 PM

I've clearly missed something here: which post did you define your Utopia in?

That's the kicker: it's not defined. But somehow, Jack_Simth is certain that it's a dystopia. I'm in the process of disabusing him of that misconception.

Also, are we talking literal angels literally volunteering to be in a harem?

Also free beer and O'Neill habitats.

JustIgnoreMe

2015-08-07, 03:14 PM

Also free beer and O'Neill habitats.
A Utopia that depends on volunteers doing things other people don't want to do... isn't a Utopia and isn't a terribly stable systen.

If the volunteers "aren't people" but are sapient, then there will be people who argue that they should have rights. That even if they don't feel that they are being exploited, they are.

And let's face it, your Utopia relies on exploiting the angels.

While there are plenty of people who would object to angel harems and free beer for all, I wouldn't call it a Dystopia just based on that.

Nifft

2015-08-07, 03:21 PM

While there are plenty of people who would object to angel harems and free beer for all, I wouldn't call it a Dystopia just based on that.

Okay, cool.

Draco_Lord

2015-08-07, 03:24 PM

Jack_Simth

2015-08-07, 05:37 PM

That's the kicker: it's not defined. But somehow, Jack_Simth is certain that it's a dystopia. I'm in the process of disabusing him of that misconception.Of course it's not defined! That way, you can make claims about it without anyone pointing out how it can't work that way! Of course, you're also demanding specifics of me... that's not very fair, now is it?

Just that there would be people who see it as such - primarily on the principle that there's a LOT of variety among humankind, and no one system will work for everyone. If you want specifics of something a group of people will object to, I'll need specifics on how you'll set everything up. However, as a general principle, the specifics don't matter. There will be some people who object very strenuously to some aspect, simply because there really is that much variety among humankind.

And yet, you're pressing for specifics. How about you outline all details (including expected behavior of citizens, acceptable behavior of citizens, and forbidden behavior of citizens).

Is this really the only issue which you can think of? (Well, actually someone else thought of it, but you know what I mean.)

Anyway, none of those cases apply. Not one of them. When I said voluntary, it wasn't in some secretly snide sarcastic way. I actually meant it. Not bound or coerced or enslaved "volunteers", just plain normal volunteers.
... you really think that you'll be able to get them? How are you ensuring that?

Regardless, if they are acting under free will, there will be severe issues when one of the humans engages in behaviour that the angels don't like (namely, the angels will take steps to 'correct' the behaviour).

Is that your final argument?
No.

There's also the little issue of stagnation: When all needs are met, there's little drive to do better. Humanity grinds to a halt. There will be people who strenuously object to this, even if it's just a perceived threat rather than a real one.

There's the issue of breeding: Mere mortals can't really compete with the D&D statted angels, so few humans will attract a human mate. Humanity will quickly be bred out as a result. There will be people who strenuously object to this, too, even if it's just a perceived threat rather than a real one.

But hey:
If you can demand specifics, so can I! Please fully stat up your utopia, including:
1) How you plan to get your volunteer angels in sufficient numbers.
2) Expected behaviour of citizens.
3) Acceptable behaviour of citizens.
4) Unacceptable behaviour of citizens.
5) Enforcement on unacceptable behaviour.
6) Specific mechanisms used to provide for everyone.

If you only take along the people for whom it will work out, and are out of reach of those left behind, then this is not a big deal. If you try to drag everyone along, it will be. My original statement was in context of Unbodied wanting to build a utopia for all.

Nifft

2015-08-07, 11:37 PM

Of course it's not defined! That way, you can make claims about it without anyone pointing out how it can't work that way! Of course, you're also demanding specifics of me... that's not very fair, now is it? You: Every utopia is also a dystopia.
Me: Mine isn't. If it is, tell me how.
You: You're demanding specifics of me! That's not fair!

Look, you claimed to know that every utopia is a dystopia. You claimed this before bothering to investigate ... much of anything, really.

Do you really think it's unfair that your bald assertions are not immediately accepted?

Or are you just thumping the table in an attempt to distract from your inability to back up your claim?

there's a LOT of variety among humankind, and no one system will work for everyone. Nobody said there was one system for everyone. That's just your assumption, based on nothing.

However, as a general principle, the specifics don't matter. There will be some people who object very strenuously to some aspect, simply because there really is that much variety among humankind. See? This is the claim. This is what you keep failing to defend, and what I keep circling around to point out.

And yet, you're pressing for specifics. Damn right. You make a claim, you better be able to back it up.

If you can't, then you ought to concede the point.

If you are uncertain because there isn't enough information, then you ought to retract your claim of certainty -- even if you are not yet able to realize the truth of the opposite position, you ought to have the intellectual honesty to recognize that your position is unsupportable.

Sagetim

2015-08-08, 12:21 AM

Has anyone mentioned Clerics/Oracles and their spell list? Cause, you could do a lot of good, and make a ton of money, with their healing spells alone. Imagine the power Regenerate could have, able to restore limbs in a matter of hours, or minutes forget which.

If I remember correctly, Regeneration takes 3 full rounds to cast, and restores a limb within it's duration. Just checked my book for 3.5: duration instantaneous, if the severed bits are touching, it restores the limb in 1 round, otherwise it takes 2d10 rounds to completely regenerate missing limbs, organs, etc. That's between 12 seconds and 2 minutes, and takes 18 seconds to cast.

This spell is one reason I picked out the Spell Sage archetype from pathfinder: it can mimic divine spells by dropping arcane spells into a blender as fuel. Sure, it takes a bundle of full round actions to mimic a divine spell like that, but you don't have to worry about the real world potentially lacking deities to give you more spells or something. Admittedly, you'd still have to worry about the world being a dead magic zone or some such, but that's only one hurdle and it's one that divine casters would share anyway.

Jack_Simth

2015-08-08, 12:45 AM

You: Every utopia is also a dystopia.
Me: Mine isn't. If it is, tell me how.
You: You're demanding specifics of me! That's not fair!

Look, you claimed to know that every utopia is a dystopia. You claimed this before bothering to investigate ... much of anything, really.
It will be for somebody. It doesn't matter the specific form (sorta like the first law of thermodynamics; it's very vague, gives no actual mechanism, and yet, there aren't any known exceptions... but any specific scenario will have specific forms of showing how it works), because pretty much everything that one person loves, another hates (and vice-versa). They won't be in balance, most the time, but the extremes of the spectrum will be there. Trouble is, any actual examples of things that specifically exist violate the real world politics rule. In order to list specific forms of the 'anti' in a specific manner, you'll need to get specific on the form you intend to try. It'll be there, though. Doesn't even matter much if you separate them. Simply knowing it's going on is sufficient, and there's enough 'drift' among people that there will be conflict even if they don't at first. I do find it interesting that when I do comment on what little you've actually put forth, and you're not even attempting to say that they're unfounded in specific. Even though you quoted chunks of the post.

Which... I suppose, means it's fair that I don't bother responding to big chunks of what you have to say. Especially as you appear to be ignoring some of the specifics I have actually given you while you're demanding specifics yourself.

Nobody said there was one system for everyone. That's just your assumption, based on nothing.
Then when your break is over go back to using absolute power to wipe out hunger, disease, suffering, global warming and turn the world into an actual honest for real with no secret catch Utopia.(Emphasis added)

Pretty sure that's not nothing. It is, in fact, what I was originally responding to.

Edit: Come to that... you also took my remarks out of context, told me I was wrong when I was giving the context of my remarks, and getting annoyed when I ask of you what you ask of me ... ah. OK. I get it now. Sometimes I'm a little slow.

************************************************** ***************************

Anyway, back to the original topic:
The ideal class in real life depends on a number of things:
What system are we using? 3.5, Pathfinder, something else? This causes some tweaks.
What conversion are we doing? Do we map our real-life stats to the character, or do we select the character's stats much like we would in game? If we're doing it like in-game, we get to pick whatever class. If we're mapping from our real-life stats, well, we need to pick something that plays to our high rolls.
Do we start with WBL, or what we have? WBL is significantly more necessary for some classes than it is for others.
Are crafting materials obtainable? If they're not, that has some influences - a crafting-centric build is obviously off the table without materials, for example; if they're obtainable just by expending gold, however, then a quick raid on the most famous gold-vault in the world handles things nicely.
Does the rest of the game-world multiverse exist? This impacts things like summoner builds, binding builds, polymorphic builds, and similar.