The House Always Loses

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello again,
I just stumbled across the Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype) archetype for the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) class.

I'm not the world's most skilled PF player, but I am inspired to play this class/archetype. Since I'm going to be in a PbP game soon that would fit this, I'd like to build this to level 20 if possible. For character creation, lets assume the race is Human, there is a 25 point buy, and there is little to no cheese.

The goal is the create the ultimate Hustler/Gambler with this class. How would you build it?

Ability Scores:

STR:
DEX:
CON:
INT:
WIS:
CHA:


Equipment:

Weapon:
Head:
Face:
Neck:
Torso:
Body:
Waist:
Shoulders:
Arms:
Hands:
Ring:
Ring:
Feet:


Feats:

Racial:
1st:
3rd:
6th:
9th:
12th:
15th:
18th:

[meemaas]

Don't have an excessive amount of input, just wanted to remind you that PF feat progression is every odd level not every third level.

[AvatarVecna]

Hello again,
I just stumbled across the Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype) archetype for the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) class.

I'm not the world's most skilled PF player, but I am inspired to play this class/archetype. Since I'm going to be in a PbP game soon that would fit this, I'd like to build this to level 20 if possible. For character creation, lets assume the race is Human, there is a 25 point buy, and there is little to no cheese.

The goal is the create the ultimate Hustler/Gambler with this class. How would you build it?

Funny story: a while back, I entered a 3.P gestalt game that was intended to go epic; I ended up building a Gambit expy. As always, thrown weapon combat requires lots of feats, so make sure not to waste them. Incidentally, the usual Magus trick with Shocking Grasp is always fun.

What really makes this build a killer is when you've got the basic thrown weapon combat feats (PBS, Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim), that level 3 ability, and a Blinkback Belt. Here's the trick: take your harrow deck, and remove all the cards that don't match your alignment exactly. The remaining 6 cards (which all perfectly match your alignment) can be put in one of the belt slots for drawing and throwing. Now all your throws have 19-20 critical threat, triple damage on a crit, and a +4 to the crit confirm roll.

Finally, I recommend at least a 2-level dip into Fighter or Ranger (or both) for the bonus feats, the potential archetypes, and the full BAB, but that's just me.

[IZ42]

I'm pretty sure it's also possible to emulate the red card and yellow card abilities of TF through dazing spell (?) and whatever the area metamagic spell is.

[Kurald Galain]

Finally, I recommend at least a 2-level dip into Fighter or Ranger (or both) for the bonus feats, the potential archetypes, and the full BAB, but that's just me.

I'm curious what archetypes you had in mind?

Note that the Magus itself also gets bonus feats so he doesn't need to dip for that (and loses caster progression if he does, of course).

[Extra Anchovies]

There's also the Cartomancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/cartomancer-witch-archetype) archetype, which is a great way to literally throw around touch-delivered spells. It's basically free Reach Spell on everything you cast, which is a pretty good trade for a familiar (you also get Deadly Dealer + Arcane Strike in place of the 2nd-level hex).

[grarrrg]

Here's the trick: take your harrow deck, and remove all the cards that don't match your alignment exactly. The remaining 6 cards (which all perfectly match your alignment) can be put in one of the belt slots for drawing and throwing. Now all your throws have 19-20 critical threat, triple damage on a crit, and a +4 to the crit confirm roll.

This doesn't work the way you want it to.
The "take all the 'good' cards out of Harrow deck" to make smaller Good/Bad Sub-Decks should work fine. Note, that you can't take multiple decks and put all the 'good' Alignment cards into one deck, as then it is no longer "a" Harrow deck.

The issues are:
1) Going by the text of the Deadly Dealer feat "A card is destroyed when thrown in this way." and "but are still destroyed after they are thrown."
2) Blinkback Belt works with "Up to two one-handed melee weapons or up to four light melee weapons can be". A Harrow Deck is not a weapon at all, and Deadly Dealer lets you treat them as Darts which are Ranged Weapons, and don't count as any type of Melee Weapon.

So you can't use it with a Blinkback Belt to begin with, and even if you could, there would be nothing to return.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm curious what archetypes you had in mind?

Note that the Magus itself also gets bonus feats so he doesn't need to dip for that (and loses caster progression if he does, of course).

It was more hypothetical archetypes; looking over both lists, I find myself less than impressed by the choices available. Still, Ranger gives BAB +2, Favored Enemy, and bonus feat, while Fighter gives BAB +2 and 2 bonus feats. It's mostly because thrown weapon combat is such a feat-starved build that a Fighter dip seems almost inevitable if you want to be good at it from the get-go. Sure, spells are better, but the Magus' spell list isn't exactly full of awesome utility. Hell, in the build I mentioned, I had 3.P available and ended up dipping Sorcerer before going straight into Ultimate Magus; I didn't get many Magus class features, but I got the important ones (to me) and I got tons of casting to put on my spell-thrown cards.

Incidentally, that reminds me: Magus also has the Kensai archetype that can be used with the Card Caster archetype. Very handy, at least IMO.

And yeah, Magus gets bonus feats, but not as quickly or as many as the Fighter. It's definitely a YMMV dip, but I like thrown weapon combat too much to only be vaguely decent at it for the first several levels.

[Barstro]

What really makes this build a killer is when you've got... a Blinkback Belt. Here's the trick:...The remaining 6 cards... can be put in one of the belt slots for drawing and throwing.

How does that get past the belt's retirement that the weapon be melee or prevent the cards from being destroyed upon use? Sure, the belt could teleport them back (if melee), but they are destroyed upon use and the teleportation is after the attack is resolved.

[AvatarVecna]

How does that get past the belt's retirement that the weapon be melee or prevent the cards from being destroyed upon use? Sure, the belt could teleport them back (if melee), but they are destroyed upon use and the teleportation is after the attack is resolved.

By RAW? No, it doesn't work. But mostly, you get by both of those by having a DM that doesn't either have a hard-on for pure RAW at the expense of RAI and who doesn't have a vested interest in making sure the only viable character is a full caster.

Getting the belt to work with all thrown weapons (rather than just melee weapons you throw) is hardly a huge change, and while standard ammunition should definitely be destroyed on impact, I haven't yet had a DM look at my magically enchanted adamantine ammunition set and say "yeah, an attack from a power attacking barbarian wouldn't destroy this card, but contact with a squishy guy obviously destroys it".

[LoyalPaladin]

Don't have an excessive amount of input, just wanted to remind you that PF feat progression is every odd level not every third level.
Dangit. Why you gotta do me like this, Pathfinder?


the usual Magus trick with Shocking Grasp is always fun.
What is this trick you speak of!


I'm pretty sure it's also possible to emulate the red card and yellow card abilities of TF through dazing spell (?) and whatever the area metamagic spell is.
I'll look into that. Especially if I go the witch route.


There's also the Cartomancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/cartomancer-witch-archetype) archetype, which is a great way to literally throw around touch-delivered spells. It's basically free Reach Spell on everything you cast, which is a pretty good trade for a familiar (you also get Deadly Dealer + Arcane Strike in place of the 2nd-level hex).
Holy smokes. That's awesome. But do you think it's better than card caster? I don't know PF well enough.


Incidentally, that reminds me: Magus also has the Kensai archetype that can be used with the Card Caster archetype. Very handy, at least IMO.
I'll look over that!

[stack]

Metamagic reducing trait or traits on shocking grasp, then add intensify so it scales up to 10d6 from a level 1 slot.

[Kurald Galain]

What is this trick you speak of!
The trick is, you cast Shocking Grasp.

Big Magus guide in my sig :smallamused:

[LoyalPaladin]

Metamagic reducing trait or traits on shocking grasp, then add intensify so it scales up to 10d6 from a level 1 slot.
Holy cow. Well, done.


Big Magus guide in my sig :smallamused:
Whoa! *laughs maniacally and dives into thread*

[Elricaltovilla]

The magus trick is to take the Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage)(Shocking Grasp) trait to lower the cost of metamagic on your shocking grasp spells by 1. Then you apply the Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic) metamagic feat to increase the dice cap of your shocking grasp to 10d6 instead of 5d6, but still keeping them as 1st level spells.

There's a second trait that will lower the metamagic cost by 1 for one spell called Wayang Spellhunter (can't link it), but there's contention as to whether you can 1) get both traits and 2) apply them to the same spell.

[LoyalPaladin]

The magus trick is to take the Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage)(Shocking Grasp) trait to lower the cost of metamagic on your shocking grasp spells by 1. Then you apply the Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic) metamagic feat to increase the dice cap of your shocking grasp to 10d6 instead of 5d6, but still keeping them as 1st level spells.

There's a second trait that will lower the metamagic cost by 1 for one spell called Wayang Spellhunter (can't link it), but there's contention as to whether you can 1) get both traits and 2) apply them to the same spell.
Interesting. I must do research!

[grarrrg]

By RAW? No, it doesn't work. But mostly, you get by both of those by having a DM that doesn't either have a hard-on for pure RAW at the expense of RAI...

Getting the belt to work with all thrown weapons (rather than just melee weapons you throw) is hardly a huge change, and while standard ammunition should definitely be destroyed on impact, I haven't yet had a DM look at my magically enchanted adamantine ammunition set and say "yeah, an attack from a power attacking barbarian wouldn't destroy this card, but contact with a squishy guy obviously destroys it".

That's all well and good from the "stick throwing weapons in the Belt" portion of the argument.
But the fact still remains that these are NOT "enchanted adamantine ammunition", these are friggin PAPER CARDS, and the Deadly Dealer Feat specifically says they are destroyed.

[AvatarVecna]

That's all well and good from the "stick throwing weapons in the Belt" portion of the argument.
But the fact still remains that these are NOT "enchanted adamantine ammunition", these are friggin PAPER CARDS, and the Deadly Dealer Feat specifically says they are destroyed.

It does, but that's not a case of "specific rule overriding the general rule", it's just restating the general rule that ammunition is destroyed upon contact: Deadly Dealer lets you treat playing cards as darts; darts are ammunition; darts are destroyed on contact. That's the RAW on the subject, and the feat is just reminding you that the cards still count as ammunition for the purposes of what happens to ammunition when it hits its target; if you convince the DM that magic adamantine ammunition shouldn't be destroyed on contact, and you've got a harrow deck of magic adamantine harrow cards, they should fall under the same houserule.

[Extra Anchovies]

It does, but that's not a case of "specific rule overriding the general rule", it's just restating the general rule that ammunition is destroyed upon contact: Deadly Dealer lets you treat playing cards as darts; darts are ammunition; darts are destroyed on contact. That's the RAW on the subject, and the feat is just reminding you that the cards still count as ammunition for the purposes of what happens to ammunition when it hits its target; if you convince the DM that magic adamantine ammunition shouldn't be destroyed on contact, and you've got a harrow deck of magic adamantine harrow cards, they should fall under the same houserule.

Darts are simple ranged weapons, not ammunition. They are not normally destroyed when thrown. Deadly Dealer cards are destroyed when thrown, which is a feat-specific rule. The specific that the cards are destroyed when thrown trumps the general that darts are not destroying when thrown. Harrow cards are enchanted as ammunition, but they are not called out as being treated as ammunition in other ways (including pricing for special materials, so an adamantine harrow deck would likely be very expensive).

Harrow cards can be made from metal, and thus can be made from adamantine, but they are still destroyed on impact because the specific rule that cards thrown via Deadly Dealer are destroyed on impact overrides the general rule that adamantine weapons generally don't break when thrown.

[AvatarVecna]

Darts are simple ranged weapons, not ammunition. They are not normally destroyed when thrown. Deadly Dealer cards are destroyed when thrown, which is a feat-specific rule. The specific that the cards are destroyed when thrown trumps the general that darts are not destroying when thrown. Harrow cards are enchanted as ammunition, but they are not called out as being treated as ammunition in other ways (including pricing for special materials, so an adamantine harrow deck would likely be very expensive).

Harrow cards can be made from metal, and thus can be made from adamantine, but they are still destroyed on impact because the specific rule that cards thrown via Deadly Dealer are destroyed on impact overrides the general rule that adamantine weapons generally don't break when thrown.

...huh. I was sure that Darts counted as ammunition. Oh well, I guess my idea was stupid.

[Extra Anchovies]

...huh. I was sure that Darts counted as ammunition. Oh well, I guess my idea was stupid.

I mean, I'd rule that adamantine harrow decks weren't destroyed when thrown, but I'd also rule that you wouldn't be able to create sub-decks. Up to the DM, I suppose.

ETA: graarg had some good points.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, I'd rule that adamantine harrow decks weren't destroyed when thrown, but I'd also rule that you wouldn't be able to create sub-decks. Up to the DM, I suppose.

Looking things over, I'm actually realizing that the only thrown weapon combat fighter that isn't terrible are the ones using melee weapons that can be thrown (or hell, melee weapons period) javelin/dart/shuriken throwers are as screwed over as they were in 3.5 pre-Bloodstorm Blade. Ah, but there's always houserules for stuff like that.

[grarrrg]

I mean, I'd rule that adamantine harrow decks weren't destroyed when thrown, but I'd also rule that you wouldn't be able to create sub-decks. Up to the DM, I suppose.

The Sub-deck thing is going to happen, it's just a matter of how it happens.
The main thing is that a partial Harrow deck must still count as a Harrow deck for the purposes of the class's abilities. If it didn't, then the moment you threw one card, then the rest would be worthless.
So a partial deck is still a deck.
Do note, that duplicate cards in a deck should disqualify it from being a deck.


The most "rules intended/friendly" version is simply attack things with cards. Given enough time (and a bit of luck) you'll eventually throw a large number of 'non-matching' cards from a single deck. This leaves you with a better-than-average deck. Which you should save for tougher fights. The reverse is also true, sooner or later you'll throw more 'matching' cards from a deck, making that deck worse, so you should use it up on easy fights.

Now we start getting a little tricky, but still logically perfectly legal.
In order to do a Harrowing with a Harrow deck, you need a full set of 54 cards. But the individual cards of a Harrow deck are not inherently special.
So if I have 2 Harrow decks, and from deck A I throw the "LG Crown" card, and deck B I throw the "NE Book" card, then it's a simple matter for me to move the "LG Crown" card from deck B into deck A, meaning deck A is once again a complete Harrow deck, and deck B is now missing 2 cards. Rinse and repeat, and as long as you don't duplicate cards in any one deck, you should be fine.
NOTE: The Deadly Dealer feat allowed you to enhance a deck as though it were ammunition. Mix/matching decks with different enhancements should be a no-no. But if you have multiple decks with the exact same enhancements, then you should be fine.

The most frown-worthy method though is straight up dividing one deck into 2 or 3 smaller decks.
Going by the above assumptions, this should still be allowed as "a partial deck is still a deck".
The easiest way to stop this level of shenanigans is to lay down some rules about what counts as a weapon, and when, regarding Quick Draw.
If you treat the deck as a non-weapon item, then you cannot use Quick Draw to drop retrieving it to a Free Action. This should fairly well put a stop to 6 card "all double-match" decks, as they would have to Move Action>new deck every couple rounds (that and using Arcane Pool to enhance a Deck only enhances the current deck, so you'd burn a lot of Arcane to continuously boost 6 card super decks).

Another thing that should readily enough put a stop to 6-card super-decks is the cost. Paying 100gp for every 6 throws is going to add up quickly, and will be prohibitively expensive at lower levels. And at higher levels, well, Darts are not really a 'top of the line' weapon to begin with, even with "double match" bonuses you'll probably fall behind.

On a final note, Darts are cruddy ranged weapons, and you are giving up your 3rd level Arcana for it, I see nothing wrong with getting a more reliable bonus from the Role Dealer ability.