Elves as the Dead of Another Realm

[LibraryOgre]

So, this is just a bit of idle noodling...

Elves are not living creatures in the normal sense. They're not undead, either. They are, instead, petitioners... the dead of another realm who have been incarnated onto the Prime Material Plane, much as dead humans, dwarves, and other creatures with souls will eventually be incarnated on the Outer Planes. As petitioners, they do not conventionally age, nor do they conventionally die, instead eventually merging with the plane.

[Brookshw]

Interesting notion though it begs the question then of where do half elves come from? Plus, ya know, baby elves for that matter. I suppose the halves (a contraction(?) that works perfectly I might add) could be explained away as improperly formed or corrupted souls born into the Prime, or perhaps souls that passed before full formation and borrowed some of their essence from the new world?

[LibraryOgre]

A bit of an elaboration, and some answers:

1) Elves are the dead of the Inner Planes; they ascend to the Prime Material, which is the synthesis of the Inner Planes. This also explains some of their variability... they come from the Elemental, Quasi-elemental, Para-elemental, Energy and Ethereal Planes. All of these varieties may not exist on a given prime, but they do exist.

2) Half-elves and baby elves come about because the Prime material is a physical place. Elven spirits are incarnated into elven bodies, not as full grown adults, but as babies. When you have a half-elf, the human aspect puts a soul in the half-elf.

[Chambers]

Next question: Elven deities. Who are they?

Why does Grummsh hate Corellon Larethian? Is Grummsh the victim of bad RP and are the Orcs actually the defenders of the Prime, now twisted into what the are by millenniums of fighting a never-ending war with the Elven invaders?

[Rockphed]

Next question: Elven deities. Who are they?

Why does Grummsh hate Corellon Larethian? Is Grummsh the victim of bad RP and are the Orcs actually the defenders of the Prime, now twisted into what the are by millenniums of fighting a never-ending war with the Elven invaders?

Much as the lower planes have their blood war with a twisted symetry between Demons and Devils, Orcs are weirdly symmetric with Elves. Gruumsh is therefore the weird symmetric of Corellon Larethian.

That actually sounds kinda cool and I might need to use it. Obviously there will be a subterranean race of lawful-good orcs to challenge the Drow.

(Having said that, I must admit that I am kinda sketchy on whether Drow were even a thing in 1st edition.)

[Thrudd]

Next question: Elven deities. Who are they?

Why does Grummsh hate Corellon Larethian? Is Grummsh the victim of bad RP and are the Orcs actually the defenders of the Prime, now twisted into what the are by millenniums of fighting a never-ending war with the Elven invaders?

Maybe they don't have deities, as they are ultimately part of the material plane. Human deities are on the outer planes, where human spirits go when they die. That would mean any elven deity, if there is one, resides on the prime material. Maybe "nature" or gaia is their deity, the power that druids draw from.

Elves aren't invaders, they are immortal spirits ultimately inseparable from the plane itself. They potentially belong there more than anyone else, other beings are just passersby on their way to their own afterlife on other planes.

Do orcs necessarily have anything to do with elves? If orcs are also immortal like elves, then maybe they are also inner plane dead souls that had commited some heinous acts in life, and will also eventually be absorbed.

But in 1e, orcs have short life expectancy, they only live like 40 years. I see them more as human/animal hybrid genetic experiments that long ago established their own brutal sort of primitive society and survived beyond those that created them, clinging to life in dark, wild places. They breed quickly and profusely and die frequently and violently. They worship whatever gods they find that are violent and brutal and will grant them power. Not necessarilly "their own" gods, since they were not created by the gods, but by some civilization that though themselves capable of making a new improved form of life. This is why orcs are so bitter and violent and hateful; deep in the ancestral psyche they have this inferiority complex derived from the knowledge that they do not truly beling anywhere, they are flawed beings on a fundamental level, created by imperfect beings with imperfect knowledge. maybe they dont even have souls, and various dark gods love to use them as earthly minions to spread discord and fear.

[Fri]

So, this is just a bit of idle noodling...

Elves are not living creatures in the normal sense. They're not undead, either. They are, instead, petitioners... the dead of another realm who have been incarnated onto the Prime Material Plane, much as dead humans, dwarves, and other creatures with souls will eventually be incarnated on the Outer Planes. As petitioners, they do not conventionally age, nor do they conventionally die, instead eventually merging with the plane.

So they're Nac Mac Feegle :smallbiggrin:?

[Digitalelf]

(Having said that, I must admit that I am kinda sketchy on whether Drow were even a thing in 1st edition.)

If you are saying that you do not know if they existed in 1st edition, they most certainly did; having been introduced in the G-D-Q series of modules (some of the first modules to come out for 1st edition), they also appeared in the 1st edition Fiend Folio.

[Cirrylius]

So they're Nac Mac Feegle :smallbiggrin:?

God damn you for beating me to this conclusion, sir. :smallannoyed:

[Mando Knight]

Next question: Elven deities. Who are they?

Why does Grummsh hate Corellon Larethian? Is Grummsh the victim of bad RP and are the Orcs actually the defenders of the Prime, now twisted into what the are by millenniums of fighting a never-ending war with the Elven invaders?

If you keep the Elven deities, then Corellon and Lolth are those that rule over this propagation of souls, or perhaps rather that Lolth snatches them from Corellon for her own dark purposes.

Gruumsh and the Orcs could be totally unrelated to this process, and just be rivals for other reasons.

[Jay R]

A. This is posted in "Older D&D/AD&D And Other Systems". Don't assume that the gods codified in 3E are part of it. So the relevant question isn't "Why does Grummsh hate Corellon Larethian?" It's "Who are the gods, and why are they doing this?

B. Mark, what is your goal? We can help you reach it only if we know where you're trying to go.

[hiryuu]

So, this is just a bit of idle noodling...

Elves are not living creatures in the normal sense. They're not undead, either. They are, instead, petitioners... the dead of another realm who have been incarnated onto the Prime Material Plane, much as dead humans, dwarves, and other creatures with souls will eventually be incarnated on the Outer Planes. As petitioners, they do not conventionally age, nor do they conventionally die, instead eventually merging with the plane.

This is amazing - this even bothers to conveniently explain Elven types. Sea Elves are petitioners from Water, High Elves are from Radiance, this opens up possibilities for all kinds of subraces I don't hate.

I don't see why this wouldn't mean you get half-elves, but that's already been addressed.

I like orcs as the protectors of the Prime Material and the like. They need supplies to protect the prime. They raid because they need supplies - the question here is who else knows? It seems like it's the sort of thing that isn't particularly well-known.

[Thrudd]

This is amazing - this even bothers to conveniently explain Elven types. Sea Elves are petitioners from Water, High Elves are from Radiance, this opens up possibilities for all kinds of subraces I don't hate.

I don't see why this wouldn't mean you get half-elves, but that's already been addressed.

I like orcs as the protectors of the Prime Material and the like. They need supplies to protect the prime. They raid because they need supplies - the question here is who else knows? It seems like it's the sort of thing that isn't particularly well-known.

What are the orcs protecting the prime from? Not the elves, that are brought there by natural cosmic processes. That would be like some natives of heaven, celestials that attack human souls that go there after death. From abominations, like that group in Eberron? Is the prime a place of torment for elven souls, and orcs their appointed tormentors?

[hiryuu]

What are the orcs protecting the prime from? Not the elves, that are brought there by natural cosmic processes. That would be like some natives of heaven, celestials that attack human souls that go there after death. From abominations, like that group in Eberron? Is the prime a place of torment for elven souls, and orcs their appointed tormentors?

Elves! They're spiritual invaders from another plane, man! Look at them! They're disrupting the natural equilibrium and they're obviously trying to breed out the humans! Clearly this is a job for Skraag the Unbroken.

[Thrudd]

Elves! They're spiritual invaders from another plane, man! Look at them! They're disrupting the natural equilibrium and they're obviously trying to breed out the humans! Clearly this is a job for Skraag the Unbroken.

So the orcs believe they are defending the plane from invaders, but they've been misled by some deity or demon or have misinterpretted what is going on. Or that is just their excuse for targetting elves, and they have similar explanations for why they should target all the other races, as well.

Dwarves! They destabilize the mountains with all their unnatural tunneling and deep mining! They must be stopped!

Humans! They keep building cities everywhere, disrupting the ecosystems and consuming all the resources meant for us!

Halflings! They don't do anything! And they taste good! They must be stopped!

[hiryuu]

So the orcs believe they are defending the plane from invaders,

Elves are invading. From another plane.


but they've been misled by some deity or demon or have misinterpretted what is going on. Or that is just their excuse for targetting elves, and they have similar explanations for why they should target all the other races, as well.

That's assuming anyone has to be actively misled to be wrong about something >_>

Also, belief systems do not care about logic, but hey, whatever.


Dwarves! They destabilize the mountains with all their unnatural tunneling and deep mining! They must be stopped!

They were born here. They're not ghosts from the elemental planes. You know what else digs tunnels? Moles. We checked and moles aren't invading ghosts from alien worlds.


Humans! They keep building cities everywhere, disrupting the ecosystems and consuming all the resources meant for us!

Bees build hive, humans build cities. They're not mutating the local plant life into twisted, horrific landscapes.


Halflings! They don't do anything! And they taste good! They must be stopped!

Pretty sure orcs aren't cannibals in general? And the elves are doing something - every elf that appears is one less place for a natural-born denizen of the world.

*belief systems may not apply to all orcs

[Thrudd]

Elves are invading. From another plane.



That's assuming anyone has to be actively misled to be wrong about something >_>

Also, belief systems do not care about logic, but hey, whatever.



They were born here. They're not ghosts from the elemental planes. You know what else digs tunnels? Moles. We checked and moles aren't invading ghosts from alien worlds.



Bees build hive, humans build cities. They're not mutating the local plant life into twisted, horrific landscapes.



Pretty sure orcs aren't cannibals in general? And the elves are doing something - every elf that appears is one less place for a natural-born denizen of the world.

*belief systems may not apply to all orcs

I think I'm interpretting this Elf idea differently than you. They aren't choosing to come to the material as invaders, or otherwise. The material plane is their afterlife, where the cosmos sends them when they die, to be born into material bodies. Just like humans get sent to the outer plane of their deities, manifesting a spiritial or astral body.
Mark said Elves eventually merge with the plane itself, in some kind of apotheosis. This implies that this is where they are meant to be, they belong to the material plane more than any other beings who are born and only live temporary mortal lives there. If somehow orcs and other beings know this to be the case, which is in no way assured, why would they see them as invaders? If they are worried about over population, maybe they have a case for that, but that same concern could apply to any and all races that the orcs feel are encroaching on their territory. Usually elves are one of the least populous races, although they are immortal, they gradually disappear into the plane.

Also, halflings are not orcs, so eating them or any other humanoid is not cannibalism. Additionally, there are plenty of references in Tolkien and early D&D of orcs (and goblins, trolls, ogres, all monsters really) wanting to eat other humanoids. Maybe you forgot that chapter where Ugluk needs to convince his troop not to eat Merry and Pippin, which he was only able to do by murdering someone to make an example. And their reference to Saruman feeding them man-flesh, which they are totally stoked about.

You and I know that those beliefs I attributed to orcs are silly and unreasonable. But do they know that? It was really more a joke, since I thought you were implying that orcs were the self appointed defenders of the world against what they perceive as unnatural invaders, which could possibly apply to any and all other humanoids as well, in some way. It would not make sense for them to be cosmically or divinely appointed defenders against elves, since the elves' presence is part of the cosmic order of things.

[Jay R]

Pretty sure orcs aren't cannibals in general? And the elves are doing something - every elf that appears is one less place for a natural-born denizen of the world.

According to the historical documents, they are willing to eat both halflings and orcs.

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY4V3UUY95A)

[hiryuu]

According to the historical documents, they are willing to eat both halflings and orcs.

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY4V3UUY95A)

It is very difficult to argue with history.

[LibraryOgre]

B. Mark, what is your goal? We can help you reach it only if we know where you're trying to go.

Don't really have one. I just was playing around with ideas and this one came to me as a neat one that was worth sharing.

Hmmm... now thinking of some of the elf-like fae creatures. Dryads and Nymphs, but also the pixies and nixies and so on. Wonder how they fit into this? The spirits of different kinds of elemental creatures? Would Nymphs be somewhat akin to a PMP deva or archon?

[Thrudd]

Don't really have one. I just was playing around with ideas and this one came to me as a neat one that was worth sharing.

Hmmm... now thinking of some of the elf-like fae creatures. Dryads and Nymphs, but also the pixies and nixies and so on. Wonder how they fit into this? The spirits of different kinds of elemental creatures? Would Nymphs be somewhat akin to a PMP deva or archon?

That's what I would assume. The fey nature spirits are the native denizens of the material plane, spirits made out of the matter of the plane. As the earth goes, so they go.

[Jay R]

Don't really have one. I just was playing around with ideas and this one came to me as a neat one that was worth sharing.

Ah - OK then, we're open for any speculation.


Hmmm... now thinking of some of the elf-like fae creatures. Dryads and Nymphs, but also the pixies and nixies and so on. Wonder how they fit into this? The spirits of different kinds of elemental creatures? Would Nymphs be somewhat akin to a PMP deva or archon?

Don't stop there. Potentially, any inherently magical race is in the same situation. Does this apply to dragons? What makes Drow different from other elves?

[LibraryOgre]

Don't stop there. Potentially, any inherently magical race is in the same situation. Does this apply to dragons? What makes Drow different from other elves?

Oh, well, Drow are pretty easy... they're the reincarnated spirits of those from the plane of Dust... the confluence of Earth and the Negative Material plane.