How useful Can a bard be without inspire courage?

[Masakan]

Asked something similar before but, I just wanna make sure that I could get away with not using inspire courage or any of its itterations if i can.

[Renen]

You still cast spells, which are more effective than most anything a mundane can do. Bard w/o inspire courage is fine.

[Brova]

You still cast spells, which are more effective than most anything a mundane can do. Bard w/o inspire courage is fine.

Yah, but your spells/day are crap and your spell knowledge is minimal. If you actually want to cast Bard spells, you are seriously better off being a Beguiler and dipping Prestige Bard than taking levels of Bard as a spellcaster. You get more spells per day, and get spells faster* - significantly so by high levels, and you know all the Bard spells. It's not just that being a Beguiler is generically more effective than being a Bard**, it is substantially better at doing the exact thing the Bard wants to do. And it's not even a particularly good option for the Beguiler. If your niche is "do a worse version of something that is too weak for other classes to care about", you fail. Hard.

*: You get second and third level spells at the same time.
**: Though it totally is.

[DMVerdandi]

Wait, does he still have all the other bardic music, because inspire heroics and inspire competence are pretty awesome in their own right.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), use the Half-Humans variant (RoD p150) to qualify for human-only feats.

Go (Savage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) ) Bard 8/ Dread Witch 1/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4, taking the first levels of Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner as early as possible. Every prestige class level after Sublime Chord should advance your Sublime Chord casting, of course. Trade Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe in Dragon Magic, Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2, Countersong for Spellbreaker Song in CM, Hypnotism for Healing Hymn in CC, and Suggestion for Haunting Melody in ECS.

Take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), I'd recommend Bravado from Dragon 328 (can't gain Dodge bonuses to AC, can't use the withdraw action) and City Slicker in Dragon 324 (-4 to Handle Animal, Kn: Nature, and Survival checks, requires Survival as a class skill). Your feats should be Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Melodic Casting (CM), Able Learner (RoD), Imperious Command (DotU), and Fell Frighten Spell (LM). If you're good-aligned you should also use the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick. Say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Menacing Demeanor for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it. Also consider taking Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (CW), a Krenshar is a good choice since its Scare DC will scale with your level and it can use your Intimidate ranks to demoralize opponents.

Skills, other than prerequisites, should include max ranks in Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. Definitely get as many skill tricks (CS) as possible, especially Never Outnumbered and Back On Your Feet.

Get armor Fearsome property from Drow of the Underdark, it's a more recent version than MIC and significantly better. This allows you to demoralize opponents with an intimidate check as a move action instead of using a standard action. Other priority items include a Mask of the Matriarch (DotU) and a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC).

Get a custom (Ancestral Relic) Runestaff (MIC p224) with whatever spells you want on it, you can UMD it at a DC 21 each day when you attune to it to use all the spells it contains as though they were on your own class spell list. Good choices would include Web, Bands of Steel, Black Tentacles, Rope Trick, Command Undead, Kelpstrand, Briar Web, Entangle, etc. You can also include long duration buffs that you don't expect to cast more than once each day to save spells known, such as Greater Resistance, or situational spells like Mass Resist Energy.

Take a look at the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), and keep in mind what the Rules Compendium page 53 says regarding escalating fear effects, "When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire."

[Masakan]

Wait, does he still have all the other bardic music, because inspire heroics and inspire competence are pretty awesome in their own right.

He didn't get rid of it...he just forgone it to focus on spellcasting.

[DMVerdandi]

He didn't get rid of it...he just forgone it to focus on spellcasting.

Well even without them;

Having bardic knowledge (or really bardic knack), alongside their spells and other features makes bards at absolute worse, a better rogue.

Their music is actually not their best feature. It's the skills and spell casting.

[Bad Wolf]

Can't you trade it away for Dragonfire Inspiration?

[Kantolin]

And of course, there's the quite valuable Sublime Chord prestige class to further your spellcasting

[Brova]

Having bardic knowledge (or really bardic knack), alongside their spells and other features makes bards at absolute worse, a better rogue.

Their music is actually not their best feature. It's the skills and spell casting.

Uh, what? You'll notice a distinct lack of trapfinding and sneak attack in the Bard, meaning it neither fulfills the vital dungeon survival role of the Rogue nor possesses the damage engine that makes them viable at high levels. The Bard has none of the class features that make the Rogue viable. Now, it has a bunch of other stuff of varying utility, but don't try and sell them as a better Rogue.

The Bard's skills are fairly marginal. He's got above average (though not top) points and a decent list. But he has no incentive to invest in Intelligence, and can't actually use the two most important skill monkey skills (search and disable device). It's entirely possible that a Wizard will have more skill points than he does. The Bard is looking at Int as his third (Cha > Con > Int) or forth (Cha > Con > Dex > Int) most important score, whereas the Wizard has it as his first. And that's assuming the Bard isn't going for song of the white raven gish build.

As mentioned, their spells are a pile of suck. They get some decent options, but don't learn nearly enough spells and don't get nearly enough spells per day. Even if they weren't outclassed by a damn Warmage who took Prestige Bard, they still wouldn't be anything to write home about there.

[Masakan]

And of course, there's the quite valuable Sublime Chord prestige class to further your spellcasting

Ok that I really don't wanna get into the Feat tax is way too high for me.


Uh, what? You'll notice a distinct lack of trapfinding and sneak attack in the Bard, meaning it neither fulfills the vital dungeon survival role of the Rogue nor possesses the damage engine that makes them viable at high levels. The Bard has none of the class features that make the Rogue viable. Now, it has a bunch of other stuff of varying utility, but don't try and sell them as a better Rogue.

The Bard's skills are fairly marginal. He's got above average (though not top) points and a decent list. But he has no incentive to invest in Intelligence, and can't actually use the two most important skill monkey skills (search and disable device). It's entirely possible that a Wizard will have more skill points than he does. The Bard is looking at Int as his third (Cha > Con > Int) or forth (Cha > Con > Dex > Int) most important score, whereas the Wizard has it as his first. And that's assuming the Bard isn't going for song of the white raven gish build.

As mentioned, their spells are a pile of suck. They get some decent options, but don't learn nearly enough spells and don't get nearly enough spells per day. Even if they weren't outclassed by a damn Warmage who took Prestige Bard, they still wouldn't be anything to write home about there.

So Your Basically saying that a Bard without inspire courage is absolute garbage.

[Troacctid]

Inspire Courage isn't even the Bard's best ability. Of course they function without it.

[Brova]

So Your Basically saying that a Bard without inspire courage is absolute garbage.

What I'm saying is that playing the Bard as a spellcaster is worse than simply doing the exact same thing as a Beguiler, and that option is not actually good enough for me to recommend it to people playing Beguilers. That doesn't necessarily make the Bard garbage, it just makes him outclassed. It's the same deal with, say, Wizards casting animate dead versus Clerics casting animate dead. It's not a bad spell, and I'm not going to say a Wizard is wrong for wanting some totally sweet skeleton minions. But he's going to be worse off that the Cleric, who can drop desecrate, among other advantages.

I don't particularly want to get into a debate about the absolute power level of the Bard, but its relative power level is very low.

[Masakan]

What I'm saying is that playing the Bard as a spellcaster is worse than simply doing the exact same thing as a Beguiler, and that option is not actually good enough for me to recommend it to people playing Beguilers. That doesn't necessarily make the Bard garbage, it just makes him outclassed. It's the same deal with, say, Wizards casting animate dead versus Clerics casting animate dead. It's not a bad spell, and I'm not going to say a Wizard is wrong for wanting some totally sweet skeleton minions. But he's going to be worse off that the Cleric, who can drop desecrate, among other advantages.

I don't particularly want to get into a debate about the absolute power level of the Bard, but its relative power level is very low.

That honestly depends on what your focus is, and yes it will take longer, but the beguiler doesn't have love's Lament or Cone of Euphoria both of which are actually pretty useful debuff spells.

I will however say this, if you wanna use a bard as a spellcaster...you have to be an enchanter. No debate.

[Kantolin]

Ok that I really don't wanna get into the Feat tax is way too high for me.


It is indeed a very steep tax on feats and skill points. It's also not absolutely mandatory to a functional caster bard.

Still, it helps a /lot/. There are leagues of differences between 6th and 9th level spells, and sublime chord makes you a heck of a lot better at spellcasting. So while the requirements are steep, if your goal is 'caster bard' you definitely should consider it, heh.

[Brova]

That honestly depends on what your focus is, and yes it will take longer, but the beguiler doesn't have love's Lament or Cone of Euphoria both of which are actually pretty useful debuff spells.

Yes he does. Or rather, maybe he does. The Prestige Bard states that:


At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis.

Given that this is the same mechanic by which expansion content exists at all, I don't really think that's a good argument for Beguiler/Prestige Bard being worse than actual Bard. And recall that Prestige Bard is a one level commitment for the Beguiler. He can jump ship into Rainbow Servant next level, or take Mindbender, or become a Shadowcraft Mage. Now, the Beguiler is a very powerful class, and there's a lot of room for being "worse than a Beguiler" without being "worthless", but the Beguiler can do anything a caster Bard does better.

[Masakan]

It is indeed a very steep tax on feats and skill points. It's also not absolutely mandatory to a functional caster bard.

Still, it helps a /lot/. There are leagues of differences between 6th and 9th level spells, and sublime chord makes you a heck of a lot better at spellcasting. So while the requirements are steep, if your goal is 'caster bard' you definitely should consider it, heh.

Gish Bard Dancer/Enchantress With an Emphasis on Fire

[Troacctid]

A Bard focusing on casting can be better or worse than a Beguiler depending on the exact build and the situation. The one-book Beguiler is easily better than the one-book Bard, but Bards have loads of splat support where Beguilers have PHBII and that's it, so there are a lot of options for Bards that Beguilers don't have.

When I've tried playing a stealthy illusion/enchantment-focused Bard, I've usually spent a fair share of time thinking "I should really have just been a Beguiler."

[Brova]

A Bard focusing on casting can be better or worse than a Beguiler depending on the exact build and the situation. The one-book Beguiler is easily better than the one-book Bard, but Bards have loads of splat support where Beguilers have PHBII and that's it, so there are a lot of options for Bards that Beguilers don't have.

When I've tried playing a stealthy illusion/enchantment-focused Bard, I've usually spent a fair share of time thinking "I should really have just been a Beguiler."

The problem is basically that Beguilers can take a one level dip to be better than Bards on every single metric as a caster (except caster level*). They get more spells per day, they get higher level spells, they get spells sooner, and they get better spell knowledge. Now if you pretend that Prestige Bard doesn't exist, it's potentially closer. But that class existing at all is pretty awful for Bards.

*: Except divinations, enchantments, and illusions. He's ahead there, unless I missed my mark on the math.

[Kantolin]

To be fair, it also says:


If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

So it's perfectly reasonable to presume they do not exist, or that bards don't exist, which either way makes the statement moot. (Heck, it doesn't even say 'you may' - it flat out says 'you shouldn't'). Nevermind case-by-case basis and researched-or-learned-specifically being fairly reasonable for a beguiler - half the point of a beguiler is that their spell list is limited, so I could see a DM balking at a beguiler usurping that at such a low level.

Either way, though, the statement is not 'A bard without inspire courage is the best spellcaster' (That's wizards, and sorcerors, and a bunch of things), the statement is more 'A bard without inspire courage is absolutely fine as a caster'.

[Troacctid]

Right, and if you're not using Inspire Courage, you also get to trade it for something nice, like Inspire Awe or an animal companion. (Okay, the animal companion is mostly only nice at low levels, but still.)

[Brova]

Nevermind case-by-case basis and researched-or-learned-specifically being fairly reasonable for a beguiler - half the point of a beguiler is that their spell list is limited, so I could see a DM balking at a beguiler usurping that at such a low level.

First of all, even a case-by-case basis is going to be basically fine for the Beguiler. The Bard seriously gets a total of five spells known at each level, and I don't even care. And beyond that, questions of what a DM will or won't allow are very much up in the air. Personally, I'd house rule Prestige Bard to be full progression and grant spells incrementally over ten levels. Someone else might use it as is, replacing the Bard and allowing all spells. Someone else might just use the standard Bard. Or anything in between.


Either way, though, the statement is not 'A bard without inspire courage is the best spellcaster' (That's wizards, and sorcerors, and a bunch of things), the statement is more 'A bard without inspire courage is absolutely fine as a caster'.

I mean, it's not like a Rainbow Servant Beguiler or a Shadowcraft Mage Beguiler isn't better than a caster Bard. It's possible that a Bard is a playable spellcaster, but there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to do that. I mean, the Sublime Chord is better off with a Wizard 9/Bard 1 entry and Ultimate Magus levels. Maybe there's something somewhere, but I kind of doubt it.

[Kantolin]

And beyond that, questions of what a DM will or won't allow are very much up in the air.

Oh, indeed. It is possible a DM can do a lot of things. But the class strongly suggests 'Either no bard, or no prestige bard' which implies one or the other is the most likely circumstance, which makes the discussion moot. There is a lot of DM adjucation there which can be okay - I'm not even presuming 'the DM is going out of his way to nerf the beguiler' or anything, just 'Whoa, that adds a lot of spells to an already-potent fixed list caster, hold on'.


I mean, it's not like a Rainbow Servant Beguiler or a Shadowcraft Mage Beguiler isn't better than a caster Bard. It's possible that a Bard is a playable spellcaster, but there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to do that.

Really, you can give the 'there is a better option' to the overwhelming majority of classes. :P The Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Savant 9 is way worse off than the Wizard 14. A bard is a great spellcaster, though, who functions well in actual play. There are prestige classes to optimize it further (Sublime Chord, lyric thaumaturge) and other things you can do to make it work out, or you can not. If your game is sufficiently high optimization that a bard can't cast, then there are probably large swaths of classes who couldn't work long before that.

To compare, a hexblade is a poor spellcaster. Using one in play won't result in you having much effect overall, although you might be able to play around with wands and stuff.

[Brova]

But the class strongly suggests 'Either no bard, or no prestige bard' which implies one or the other is the most likely circumstance, which makes the discussion moot.

Well that depends on what OP wants to do. If the question is "how effective can I be as specifically a Bard while not using inspire courage", there's discussion to be had. If the question is "how do I make a character that effectively casts Bard spells", the answer is objectively "play a Beguiler/Prestige Bard". Now it's possible that a DM will come down one way or the other on the Prestige Bard issue, but that's not really objectively derivable. What is objectively derivable is that the character who is best at casting Bard spells is not the Bard, but the Beguiler/Prestige Bard.


I'm not even presuming 'the DM is going out of his way to nerf the beguiler' or anything, just 'Whoa, that adds a lot of spells to an already-potent fixed list caster, hold on'.

That's true, but honestly you're not hurting much even if the DM decides to not allow expansion content. I doubt there's a Bard spell out their that holds up to the Beguilers other advantages.


Really, you can give the 'there is a better option' to the overwhelming majority of classes.

Well, that's a question of strictly better versus relatively better. Take the Fighter versus the Wizard and the Fighter versus the Warrior. The Fighter is worse than a Wizard who casts a bunch of battlefield control spells, but he isn't strictly worse. He can swing a sword more effectively than the Wizard. On the other hand, the Fighter is better than the Warrior in every case. He gets more hit points and gets bonus feats*. From the perspective of "being a caster" the only advantage the Bard has over the Beguiler is that when casting spells other than illusions, enchantments, and divinations, his caster level is one higher.


The Beguiler 5 / Rainbow Savant 9 is way worse off than the Wizard 14.

First of all, that's not actually legal entry (at least by default). You need 3rd level spells to be a Rainbow Servant, so the Beguiler is either Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 8 or Beguiler 4/Rainbow Servant 10 with versatile spellcaster.

But honestly, it's actually pretty close. The Beguiler has the most favorable spellcasting mechanic in the entire game (in that he knows his entire spell list and casts spontaneously) and gets a pile of spells which are totally sweet. Even assuming he's not rocking minion laundering, arcane disciple, or substitute domain. He still gets dominate person, mass hold person, and some random nukes from domains.


There are prestige classes to optimize it further (Sublime Chord, lyric thaumaturge) and other things you can do to make it work out, or you can not.

Except Sublime Chord isn't a Bard class. Why would you enter as a Bard 10 (which involves giving up your Bard casting) rather than Wizard 9/Bard 1 (which involves getting dual nines or close with Ultimate Magus)? Lyric Thaumaturge is okay, but should probably stack with Prestige Bard by RAI, and isn't actually better than simply being a Sorcerer and getting those spells organically.


To compare, a hexblade is a poor spellcaster. Using one in play won't result in you having much effect overall, although you might be able to play around with wands and stuff.

If Hexblade is the threshold for "bad caster", you've gone too far.

*: Sadly, that's all he gets.

[Troacctid]

Prestige Bard does not make the Beguiler better at casting Bard spells than the Bard, as it only gives you unique Bard spells, not all spells on the Bard list. That means a lot of the important ones, like Alter Self and Dimension Door, aren't included. The best you're getting is probably Glibness, which you already had, so unless you're a big fan of Improvisation or Harmonic Chorus or something, it's probably not that impressive.

[Brova]

Prestige Bard does not make the Beguiler better at casting Bard spells than the Bard, as it only gives you unique Bard spells, not all spells on the Bard list. That means a lot of the important ones, like Alter Self and Dimension Door, aren't included. The best you're getting is probably Glibness, which you already had, so unless you're a big fan of Improvisation or Harmonic Chorus or something, it's probably not that impressive.

Wow, I cannot believe I missed that. Nevermind then. The Bard is not strictly worse than the Beguiler. That being said, I don't really see the Bard measuring up.

But yes, my bad, totally not strictly worse.

[Optimator]

A Bard (Sublime Chord) enchanter has a few perks over a Wizard or Beguiler, for what it's worth. First off the base chassis (saves, skills, armour proficiency) is decent, at least compared to the Wizard--I know Beguilers are great in that department and get armoured casting too. Spells like Inner Beauty, Snowsong, and Nixie's Grace can boost Charisma (and thus save DCs) for extended periods. Burning music to boost DCs is possible (forget the feat name; the one you get for free from Lyric Thurmaturge. The good one--there are multiple but I think they all require swift actions and this one does both Illusion and Enchantment at a +2). Doomspeak can help that Dominate land. Sublime Chords have access to a lot (but admittedly not all) of the save reducers (Enervation, Fear, etc) that Wizards get. No Ray of Sickness unfortunately, though I think Love's Lament and a few others can sicken. The Disguise Spell feat is one of the most reliable ways to conceal spellcasting for increased subterfuge. Sublime Chords get Greater Dispel Magic early so pesky Protection From Evil and Mindblanks are more manageable FWIW.

[Brova]

First, let's talk about the Wizard being better than the Bard. Specifically, about the Wizard being a better Sublime Chord than the Bard. Entry via Wizard 5/Prestige Bard 1/Incantatrix 4. Take apprentice for Perform as a class skill and spontaneous divination. Then grab a level of Sublime Chord and nine levels of Ultimate Magus. Gets you 9ths as a Wizard and 8ths as a Sublime Chord (maybe dual nines if you shuffle stuff). And you get Incantatrix metamagic as well as any unique Bard spells

Now, on to your specific points.


First off the base chassis (saves, skills, armour proficiency) is decent, at least compared to the Wizard--I know Beguilers are great in that department and get armoured casting too.

You've got some advantage on the Wizard, though it's fairly marginal. The good save and armor proficiency are nice, but the skills aren't much better (with the exception of diplomacy). You aren't really ahead there because of how much lower your Int is likely to be.


Spells like Inner Beauty, Snowsong, and Nixie's Grace can boost Charisma (and thus save DCs) for extended periods. Burning music to boost DCs is possible (forget the feat name; the one you get for free from Lyric Thurmaturge. The good one--there are multiple but I think they all require swift actions and this one does both Illusion and Enchantment at a +2). Doomspeak can help that Dominate land.

That's true, but those spells are competing for sharply limited spells per day and spells known. And it's not like the Wizard can't boost his DCs. And recall that those are all Bard exclusive, so a Sorcerer can grab them via Prestige Bard (though, wow, that class is even worse than I thought).


Sublime Chords get Greater Dispel Magic early so pesky Protection From Evil and Mindblanks are more manageable FWIW.

They get it at the same time as Wizards.

[Optimator]

First, let's talk about the Wizard being better than the Bard. Specifically, about the Wizard being a better Sublime Chord than the Bard. Entry via Wizard 5/Prestige Bard 1/Incantatrix 4. Take apprentice for Perform as a class skill and spontaneous divination. Then grab a level of Sublime Chord and nine levels of Ultimate Magus. Gets you 9ths as a Wizard and 8ths as a Sublime Chord (maybe dual nines if you shuffle stuff). And you get Incantatrix metamagic as well as any unique Bard spells
Wow, combining the best class with the best prestige class, an extremely good alternate class feature, and an optional prestige class then dual-advancing it and an accelerated-casting class with another very-good prestige class is indeed better than a Sublime Chord!



You've got some advantage on the Wizard, though it's fairly marginal. The good save and armor proficiency are nice, but the skills aren't much better (with the exception of diplomacy). You aren't really ahead there because of how much lower your Int is likely to be..

Of course it's marginal. An extra HP/level and a few more in Reflex isn't nothing though. Wizard being better was never in contention. I assumed all the qualifiers, such as "few", "FWIW", "decent", "can", etc. would have implied as much. A Wizard with the Enchanter stuff from UA gets a lot of the social skills anyway. Doesn't change the fact that Bards get them and more. All I was trying to say was Bards are serviceable and can put a unique spin on the archetype. Especially since the original topic was the usefulness of Bards without Inspire Courage. Also, for the early part of the game (you know, where most players play) the skills per level are equal or close to equal, assuming a 14 Int on the Bard. Not unreasonable at all if someone wanted a skill-heavy Bard or a casting-heavy Bard, which a dedicated Enchanter may very well be (and probably should be, since they aren't wading into melee with IC). Bardic Knowledge (or even Bardic Knack) can make up for it slightly as well, by being able to drop a Knowledge or two.

Your point is more or less valid though. Once again, all I was contending is a Bard enchanter isn't perk-less.


That's true, but those spells are competing for sharply limited spells per day and spells known. And it's not like the Wizard can't boost his DCs. And recall that those are all Bard exclusive, so a Sorcerer can grab them via Prestige Bard (though, wow, that class is even worse than I thought).Very, very, very true. I suppose Knowstones/Runestaves/other magic items that add spell known/GM spell research allowance can help but that's neither here nor there (same with Prestige Bard though). One fun trick is seeing if your DM will allow Sublime Chords to take that one spell (from Dragon Magic? Arcane Spellsurge? Or are those the ones that casts two at once? All three are good) that reduces casting times on spells. Standard-action Dominates. Standard-action Doomspeak followed by a move-action enchantment. Very fun and quite servicable. It's Sorcerer-only but not dragon-themed so it may not be a problem.

An Int-boost from PAO can boost save DCs for Wizards and there is the Spell Enhancer spell from SpC (which Sublime Chords can get but won't necessarily want to spend a swift action on). What are some of the other ways? Not trying to call you out on this one--I'm genuinely curious and my Wizard characters can certainly benefit! I've always focused on enemy save-reducing in the past.


They get it at the same time as Wizards.
I was 95% positive that Sublime Chords get a few spells, most notably Greater Dispel Magic (there are a few others, like Hindsight and Otto's Irresistible Dance) because they are one or more levels lower for Bards (and Sublime Chords get Bard spells if they appear on both lists) but the advancement is equal to a Wizard's, making them two or more levels early. I'm away from my books for the next several months so I cannot verify that. I could very well be wrong though.

[Brova]

I was 95% positive that Sublime Chords get a few spells, most notably Greater Dispel Magic (there are a few others, like Hindsight and Otto's Irresistible Dance) because they are one or more levels lower for Bards (and Sublime Chords get Bard spells if they appear on both lists) but the advancement is equal to a Wizard's, making them two or more levels early. I'm away from my books for the next several months so I cannot verify that. I could very well be wrong though.

There are a few cases where they get stuff earlier. I think mind blank is one. But not greater dispel magic. greater dispel magic is a 6th level spell, which Wizards get at 11th. You cannot take Sublime Chord levels before 11th, so it is actually impossible for Sublime Chords to get a drop on Wizards with that particular spell.

[Pluto!]

Getting Greater Dispel before CL 11 also raises some questions.

Namely, "why?"

[Optimator]

Removes curses?

I think I was merely remembering that Sublime Chords get GDM as a 5th so it frees up precious, precious 6th level-spell slots.