if they were to make a shaman class for 5e how would you want it diferent from druids

[Rfkannen]

so according to that survey shamans are one of the most wanted classes, and I am a part of the faction that want them so I understand, but I was wondering how you guys see the 5e shaman being like without overlapping with the druid. What would you want it to be? Personally I think of the fundamental difference is that a shaman controls nature while a druid is controlled by nature(or alternatively, is nature), but that might just be me, and it isn't really a mechanical thing. So what do you think the difference should be?

How do you see it being implemented? How would you want it implemented?

[Morcleon]

I don't really see it as sufficiently different from the druid to warrant being another class. It could easily just be done as an archetype. As for what I'd like to see... probably a bit more of an elemental bent that the druid?

Also, where is this survey? I wanna vote for psion. :smalltongue:

[Drackolus]

I had the random passing thought a while ago of a class doing spirit-invocation thing where they temporarily get some passives and a few uses of their action that scale with their levels, maybe learning new ones as they level. Think Investiture of x-style abilities. As an example:

Invoke the Bear

Replace your strength score with your Wis (or whatever the shaman primary score is) if it's higher, Gain resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning, and as an action make a bite and claw attack for 1d6 and 2d4 respectively.


Something among those lines. Maybe instead/also some Final Fantasy-esque summoner abilities. Maybe split by archetype.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Honestly, I'd like it as a more martial druid sub-class, not a new class all to it's own.

[Wartex1]

Honestly, I'd like it as a more martial druid sub-class, not a new class all to it's own.

It could probably be a Barbarian subclass as well.

[nanoboy]

Honestly, when I think of a shaman, I think of a priest to an uncivilized* people. The shaman's duties revolve around healing and ensuring that the people are not running afoul of any gods or spirits. Perhaps, the shaman aids the people's warriors by imbuing them with spiritual or animistic energy. That sounds more like a Cleric or even a Bard to me.

*I mean uncivilized, as in the people lack cities. They might be nomadic, agrarian, or somewhere in between. They are likely reliant on more civilized people for metal and other goods that require more sophisticated infrastructure.

[Ralanr]

Druids deal with nature, clerics deal with the tasks of their god. Shamans deal with the mortal, the spirits that symbolize the world.

I'm not even sure how a barbarian could work as a shaman. Shaman aren't known for their fury. I found them being the most popular class to be odd.

[The_Pyromancer]

I see a shaman as having a bent towards controlling spirits more than nature. I would like to see a unique system where the shamans can call on different animal spirits or totems to give them special abilities. Maybe the different spirits are different subclasses, or maybe they are a resource, like a Battlemaster's manuevers. Either way, I tthink it could be a very flavorful and fun class to play.

[1of3]

Spirit Companion.

[SouthpawSoldier]

I've toyed around with and set aside a homebrew along the lines of a shaman. A tribal nature caster, with archetypes that focus on healing, interaction with the spirit world, and power over nature. Link at the bottom.

It's a tough class. There are a wide variety of concepts that people think of when they think "shaman". Totem caster? Naturalist? Potions and herbs? Just a druid that's a little more social, and is part of a tribe rather than a crazy hermit in the woods?

Linky: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411102-Need-help-bringing-a-concept-to-life-Medicine-Man-Kahuna

[Spacehamster]

To me a shaman should be a barbarian subclass with divine and elemental magic that reaches level 4 spells like ek and at.

[Ninja_Prawn]

To me a shaman should be a barbarian subclass with divine and elemental magic that reaches level 4 spells like ek and at.

This is what I imagine too. Something halfway between a barbarian and a druid. Maybe with a herbalism-related ability in there.

If it was its own class, I'd make it a prepared Wis half-caster.

[PoeticDwarf]

Melee ranger or barbarian subclass, maybe with potions.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I just can't see it as a barbarian sub-class, especially with the totem barbarian already in play. A more martial druid sub-class however would be a welcome diversion from the wildshape necessity and the boring land druid variants. Something that could turn wildshape into possession by nature spirits would be pretty cool.

[Inevitability]

Spirit Companion.

This. 4e managed to make a class that felt really unique and allowed for the archetype of the adventurer-with-a-pet, all because of this. A primary caster who also has melee presence is something we haven't yet really seen.

[Ferrin33]

A shaman could be its own class.

Shamanism is the practice of reaching altered states of conciousness to interact with the spirit world, and channel those energies into this world. There are many different interpretations of this, but it is not martial so making it a barbarian subclass isn't the way to go. It's also to close to the Totem archetype it already has.

Archetypes of the shaman: Witch Doctor focused on herbal medicines and rituals, Spirit Shaman focused on the spirit world and have a spirit guide.

Plenty of others you could think of, but I think it should be a primary caster and is different enough from existing classes. If it would be a an archetype of any class it would be druid, but wildshape is to intrinsic to the class for that.

[MrStabby]

I think the word(s) is most closely translated into English as Monk and to be honest I could see it as a nature themed Monk sub-class.

It would be a chance to have a spellcasting monk archetype worth playing. Give things like ensnaring strike, pass without trace and spiritual guardians as spells and you might actually have something worth using (possibly a level 6 archetype ability to recover some Ki points to make it a viable "caster".

[KorvinStarmast]

What Class is my Shaman?

Going way back, Shaman was the name level of an anti-cleric (third level) back when alignment was Law/Neutral/Chaos. Clerics were by definition Lawful or Chaotic at that point.
Anti-Clerics: Evil Acolyte, Evil Adept, Shaman, Evil Priest, Evil Curate, Evil Bishop, Evil Lama, Evil High Priest. (ref is Men and Magic, OD&D book I).

First Ed AD&D in the DMG (page 40) and later the Unearthed Arcana, gave more substance to shamans and witch doctors. They were directly assigned the roles as clerical/magical members of tribal societies: gnolls, orcs, other humanoids, tribesmen, and barbarians.

Their basic model was as a tribal spell caster ... as opposed to what? A civilized spell caster.

What meta themes are we looking at here?

Clerics in D&D terms have always been parts of a religion linked to a civilization. Civilization (particularly in its formal usage) implies progress, multiple communities, and cities as the advanced social model of a culture or people that make it civilized versus something else.

The opposite of this is the barbarian, or other uncivilized cultures/peoples. These people have spiritual needs as well, which for simplicities sake ends up being the roles are fulfilled by shamans: same role, different cultural model as a basis.

When you talk about archetypes, the city/agrarian versus the pastoralist/barbarian is writ large all over human history, which leaks into this game from every direction. The thin veneer of fantasy, magic and exotic creatures in the various D&D worlds cannot disguise how this archetype has been maintained to this edition: which makes sense, since people create these games.

The above considered, should the Shaman be a subset of Druid, a subset of Cleric, or its own class? The Druid is also a "not of the city" sort of leader and nature magic specialist.

I'd initially suggest that a Shaman is a subset of Druid. The Shaman's specialty is spiritual contact, alliance, and manipulation. He's in touch with the world before cities and technology make profound changes to it.

Wait a sec, Druids were originally a sub set of cleric. The original role a shaman fulfilled was, for a non citified culture, that of a cleric.

Since D&D has split Druids out of the Clerical class, split the Shaman out of the Clerical or Druid class and make the Shaman it's own class.

Where do you find Shamans? Short answer: anywhere but in cities.

Barbarians in general, and Goliaths in particular, would likely have shamans as their spiritual leaders and guides in their cultures/societies. So too would orcs and gnolls, giants and various other humanoids. Likewise entire cultural groupings all over the various D&D worlds where people live in a style that is low tech and very "un-city" in nature, though a druid fulfills those roles as well.

It's a good starting point: reconcile which spirits from which planes the Shaman has connections to.
The spirit connection makes me wonder if there isn't a little Warlock flavor needed for a Shaman class to play out as a master of spiritual magic.

[tieren]

I think it should be its own class with subtypes for some of the ideas listed.

I would also like to see more connection to the spirit world, possibly even necromatic abilities (speak with dead for sure, but maybe animate dead on non-humanoids too).

[KorvinStarmast]

How to make the Shaman?

A few suggestions:
Prime requisite/spell stat ought to be Charisma.
Second proficiency stat either Wisdom or Constitution.

Justification: the force of his personality/charisma/spirit is what connects him to the spirit world successfully.
Constitution: obvious, grew up in the barbarian/tribal setting, have to be hearty to survive.
Granted, the standard "Wisdom" spell casting can be justified in terms of how he has to perceive subtle indications clues to be able to communicate with spirits ... but my gut tells me Charisma.

Using Charisma furthers the archetype of shaman as a tribal leader, not just a wiseman or healer. An authority figure. This is sorta like Sitting Bull more than Crazy Horse.

Not sure what to do with unique spells, but a lot of divination applies.
Some healing.
Spells like Confuse, Create Fear, speak with dead, summon animal or animal spirits, speak with animals, animal friendship, Alarm, silence, darkness, Light, reincarnation, etc.

Numerous spells cast as rituals.

A variation on wild shape, though how to make it distinct from the Druid wild shape I am not sure.

He has to be able to create food, like Shaman Bacon.

(OK, please don't throw rotten vegetables at me for that one ... )

[ruy343]

What if they did a shaman subclass of warlock, where your patron is a nature spirit or something? that would make it unique enough from the druid, while still allowing a lot of the ideas presented above.

[KorvinStarmast]

What if they did a shaman subclass of warlock, where your patron is a nature spirit or something? that would make it unique enough from the druid, while still allowing a lot of the ideas presented above. I was thinking the same thing, but that's a mechanical relationship ... and I was looking for a more cultural relationship.

Your idea as a variation on Warlock does fit 5e, however, with not too much to adjust.

[Ralanr]

What if they did a shaman subclass of warlock, where your patron is a nature spirit or something? that would make it unique enough from the druid, while still allowing a lot of the ideas presented above.

Now I like that. This is a whole different view that we didn't bother to notice.

[Ferrin33]

What if they did a shaman subclass of warlock, where your patron is a nature spirit or something? that would make it unique enough from the druid, while still allowing a lot of the ideas presented above.

Huh, that's pretty interesting. Pacts with spirits to grant him power, power coming from those spirits so short rests restores that through a trance to negotiate again? Hmm, I really like that.

What I don't like however is the Pact Weapon/Tome/Familiar, and the eldritch blast. But I think the archetype could handle the flavor with those abilities. I think it's a much better fit than druid though, as the baseline wild shape is meh.

[Atalas]

Just create another Pact Boon, and accompanying invocations? EB could still work, saying the shaman is channeling the power of the spirits to strike his enemies. The Archfey Pact somewhat taps into a Shamanistic outlook, but going more Druid-related could make it very unique. Maybe it gives some Druid cantrips like Druidcraft in addition to the normal spells. add spells like Speak with Dead, Cure Wounds, maybe something like Conjure Elemental?

[Ralanr]

Just create another Pact Boon, and accompanying invocations? EB could still work, saying the shaman is channeling the power of the spirits to strike his enemies. The Archfey Pact somewhat taps into a Shamanistic outlook, but going more Druid-related could make it very unique. Maybe it gives some Druid cantrips like Druidcraft in addition to the normal spells. add spells like Speak with Dead, Cure Wounds, maybe something like Conjure Elemental?

Making its spell list more Druidic than illusion based would work.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Tome lock could work, with a little refluffing. High ritual reliance fits, with a few signature tricks that can be relied on regularly. Instead of a book, the "tome" could be something physical/tangible; a collection of beaded leather dolls or figurines. Make it a blend of indigenous American and Voodoo themes. Or a gnarled and carved "spirit stick". Adjusting the spell list would be a good idea. Maybe lift the Spell-less Ranger's Poultices and add them as a class/pact feature (though adjust the numbers; I did the math comparing poultices to the Healer feat and they come up very short). Maybe a cloak, with the strands or fringe serving as a variant of a rosary; a focus during prayer and refreshing spells.

[rollingForInit]

If they made a Shaman, I'd want it to be a class with mystical abilities, but not a spellcaster. Someone who deals with spirits should be the main concept. Maybe something with astral travel?

Could be done as a Druid archetype, I suppose, but would be pretty fun if they made a new, unique mechanic for handling spirits.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Prime requisite/spell stat ought to be Charisma.
Oh please god no. There are already too many Charisma-based classes as it is.


Using Charisma furthers the archetype of shaman as a tribal leader, not just a wiseman or healer. An authority figure. This is sorta like Sitting Bull more than Crazy Horse.
Not sure where this tribal leader idea has come from. I've always seen shamans as the outsiders. In ancient cultures, the mystics tended to be shunned and feared and were never leaders.

[Nifft]

I love the idea of a Shaman which uses the Warlock skeleton -- that's brilliant -- but I don't like the idea of a Shaman who uses the Warlock spell list or invocation list.

Like, IMHO the Shaman should not get Eldritch Blast. They should have their own tricks.

[Atalas]

These were in societies where the supernatural was questioned. D&D, magic is an accepted part of life in most campaigns, and in most tribal societies the shaman holds only a little less power than the chief. sometimes more depending on how things have been in the last generation or two.

In fact, in some of the D&D related novels I've read, shaman's are very much a part of clan life. For orcs, their shamans are the answer to more civilized clerics. for barbarian tribes, if they don't outright shun magic, a shaman is a link to their totem spirit. In both cases the shaman holds just a little less power than the chief, but at the same time if the shaman declares that the action the chief is moving towards is not supported by whoever they worship, the chief backs off.

[ruy343]

Whoa, I didn't expect for my idea (building it off of a warlock chassis) to be even read, let alone discussed so much! Sweet!

I would probably make it a separate class, but similar to the warlock. I would have the same spell progression or so, but create a new spell list as discussed above, and maybe have some more "always on" abilities.

In terms of the kinds of cantrips they would get, I, personally, am all right with eldritch blast if reflavored to an "elemental blast" or something like that. However, Shillelagh makes far more sense.

I would probably rule that the class would be wisdom-based for its spellcasting stat, although Charisma is fine (though we already have a ton of that kind of caster).

I'm tempted to sit down and write out a complete class. I'll get back to you as to whether I actually do it.

[JNAProductions]

Do it! Brew a new Shaman up! And post it in the Homebrew section for all to see!

I really like the Warlock chassis, so another class in that style would be cool.

[Princess]

I also like the warlock idea - it'd be interesting to see a Shaman that is to a Cleric or Druid what a Warlock is to a Wizard or Sorcerer, for sure. Making them Wisdom based makes more sense to me than Charisma based, though.

[Ralanr]

Since you choose your patron at level one you could have one of their abilities change the primary casting stat from charisma to wisdom.

[MrStabby]

I also like the warlock idea - it'd be interesting to see a Shaman that is to a Cleric or Druid what a Warlock is to a Wizard or Sorcerer, for sure. Making them Wisdom based makes more sense to me than Charisma based, though.

Not quite sure I quite feel the warlock chassis but certainly another short rest caster could work, maybe something with spell slots that stack with pact casting like the other multiclass casting slots stack.

Warlock is a good style to aim for as it has robust combat skills as well as reasonable casting and some nifty at-will abilities. I could see Shaman fitting in here pretty well.

[Coyote81]

I really thought the spirit animal of the 4e Shaman really set it apart from the other full casters. So why not have shaman be it's own class, but with a similar setup to warlock. instead of pacts, they'll get spirits. The "evocations", whatever you will call them will modify what the spirits are good at, or perhaps give the specialized abilities. As well as the standard once per long rest type spells. Give them a more druidic spell list, maybe more of the short range spells.

The biggest thing is making a working but not overpowered way of handling the spirit animal without making it seem like you give up all your spell casting. The summon spirit could be a cantrip, so that they don't suffer the beastmaster issue, and perhaps the caster gives up a BA to allow the spirit animal to take an action.

To balance the casting and pet attack in the same turn, just limit the shaman spell selection. Allow some cantrip attack spells, but forgo any spell level 1 or 2 attack spells.

For Example:

C a n t r i p s (0 L e v e l )
Spare the Dying
Guidance
Mending
Poison Spray
Dancing Lights
Resistance
Shillelagh
Thorn Whip

1s t L e v e l
Animal Friendship
Bless
Faerie Fire
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Poison and Disease
Goodberry
Healing Word
Protection from
Evil and Good
Purify Food and Drink

2 n d L e v e l
Animal Messenger
Blindness/Deafness
Beast Sense
Darkvision
Augury
Find Traps
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Lesser Restoration
Locate Animals or Plants
Spiritual Weapon
Pass without Trace
Protection from Poison

This really makes the shaman more focus one support from their spell selection, and if they want a more combat approach, they need to buff there spirit animal with "evocations" and/or gear themselves for combat, which they won't be amazing at, something more along the line Sorcerer's level of combat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure where this tribal leader idea has come from.
Look up the term "Medicine Man" from Amerind cultulres. See also "witch doctor" from some other animist cultures.

Leader-wiseman is a profound archetype in human societies all over the globe.

A common variation is that the wiseman is the leader's right hand man, vizier, advisor, another is that he's part of the council of elders ... etc.

Now, in D&D context since its inception, shaman isn't an outsider, as I noted a few posts back on the origins of what that term means in game context.

@princess

Making them Wisdom based makes more sense to me than Charisma based, though. Indeed, the "wise man" archetype fits just fine.

[Shining Wrath]

I'd use the idea of a Shaman as being a Cleric for people who are mostly illiterate, at a lower level of technological development than some other races. They don't worship the gods, lacking holy books and the intellectual sophistication (DIFFERENT THAN INTELLIGENCE!) and vocabulary to actually describe and begin to comprehend an entity like Morandin or Boccob.

I'd make it it's own class. Give them half - caster progression, similar to a Paladin. Their spell list is heavily focused on taking care of the needs of a primitive tribe - curing diseases, healing wounds, finding prey animals. No ritual casting because many Shamans are illiterate. Simple weapons, light and medium armor, shields.

What do they worship instead of the gods? The simpler, more comprehensible minions of the Nature gods which are still present in the world for those who will but stop and see, and hear. Shamans may therefore summon fey and elementals appropriate to their location.

They not only get all the conjuration spells, they get a fey spirit which accompanies them like a Beastmaster Ranger's companion, and which takes on different forms depending on need. The Spirit Companion can change shape like a druid does, with similar limitations as to frequency and form as a Moon Druid, and with the additional constraint that the form has to match the environment, so you can't become a Mammoth underground. The Spirit Companion acts with greater independence than the Beastmaster Ranger's companion, essentially getting its own turn. A Spirit Companion which is slain disappears until the Shaman finishes a long rest. A Spirit Companion has hit dice and HP which stay with it and are not recovered if it changes form, but it can recover HP like a normal character during a rest, be healed by magic, and so on. A Spirit Companion obeys the orders of the Shaman so long as the Shaman is conscious and not obviously under mind control; if the Shaman is mind controlled and gives the Spirit Companion an order contrary to the Shaman's usual nature, the Spirit Companion will attack the person controlling the Shaman if it can identify them. Otherwise it remains near the Shaman and protects them as best it can.

EDIT: Wisdom is the primary casting stat. However, knowledge of which forms the Spirit Companion can take in a particular place is Intelligence(Nature); that is, making best use of the Spirit Companion requires at least some intelligence. This fits into the usual idea of the Shaman as being a respected leader in the community; they not only have Wisdom, they have knowledge of tribal History, Nature, and what knowledge of Religion their tribe has acquired.

Skills would be 3 of Nature, History, Religion, Medicine, Survival, Perception, Insight, and Persuasion.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd use the idea of a Shaman as being a Cleric for people who are mostly illiterate, at a lower level of technological development than some other races.
Like this.

They don't worship the gods, lacking holy books and the intellectual sophistication (DIFFERENT THAN INTELLIGENCE!) and vocabulary to actually describe and begin to comprehend an entity like Morandin or Boccob. You don't need holy books to worship gods.

I'd make it it's own class. Give them half - caster progression, similar to a Paladin.
I'd argue for a full caster: Druids are a closer template than Paladin.


Their spell list is heavily focused on taking care of the needs of a primitive tribe - curing diseases, healing wounds, finding prey animals. And communicating with, working with, and getting things done with spirits: that seems to be the core competency of the Shaman.

No ritual casting because many Shamans are illiterate. You don't need to be literate to perform a ritual. See animist practices all through human history. Anthropology and archaeology, for the win!!!!

Simple weapons, light and medium armor, shields. Agree.

What do they worship instead of the gods?
See above, they can worship gods, or, they can be in contact with a wide variety of spirit and creatures from other planes.

Shamans may therefore summon fey and elementals appropriate to their location. Two Thumbs Up! Nicely put.

They not only get all the conjuration spells, they get a fey spirit which accompanies them like a Beastmaster Ranger's companion, and which takes on different forms depending on need. Love this idea. You could also implement this more like "find steed" or "find familiar"

The Spirit Companion can change shape like a druid does, with similar limitations as to frequency and form as a Moon Druid, and with the additional constraint that the form has to match the environment, so you can't become a Mammoth underground. Nice, like this touch a lot.

The Spirit Companion acts with greater independence than the Beastmaster Ranger's companion, essentially getting its own turn.
A Spirit Companion which is slain disappears until the Shaman finishes a long rest.
A Spirit Companion has hit dice and HP which stay with it and are not recovered if it changes form, but it can recover HP like a normal character during a rest, be healed by magic, and so on.
Looks more like "find steed" in this case. I still like it.

The rest of your suggestion as well: much goodness.

I wonder if Wizards will do something like this. Hopefully, yes.

[Ralanr]

Sounds like it could work as another cleric domain then.

Do people really think high int makes a knowledgeable character? Wisdom is a huge factor.

[Nifft]

Sounds like it could work as another cleric domain then.

Do people really think high int makes a knowledgeable character? Wisdom is a huge factor.

High Int seems like a tactician or trickster character.

High Wis seems like a martial artist or mystical hermit character.

But the person who actually seems most knowledgeable is the high Cha character, because smug bluffing works.

[Ralanr]

High Int seems like a tactician or trickster character.

High Wis seems like a martial artist or mystical hermit character.

But the person who actually seems most knowledgeable is the high Cha character, because smug bluffing works.

It can even rework the universe (sorcerer and their metamagic).

[Nifft]

It can even rework the universe (sorcerer and their metamagic).

"Smugness overwhelming."

- - -

So anyway, about the Shaman. What are the central class features?

- Divine / Nature flavored casting, so probably Wisdom.

- Totem Spirit tactical battlefield thing.

- Healing & support magic.

- Summoning?

[Belac93]

I would think warlock would be a good basis, and I made one in the homebrew section today.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432063-5e-shaman-subclass&p=19627192#post19627192

[Shining Wrath]

Like this.
You don't need holy books to worship gods.

I'd argue for a full caster: Druids are a closer template than Paladin.

And communicating with, working with, and getting things done with spirits: that seems to be the core competency of the Shaman.
You don't need to be literate to perform a ritual. See animist practices all through human history. Anthropology and archaeology, for the win!!!!
Agree.

See above, they can worship gods, or, they can be in contact with a wide variety of spirit and creatures from other planes.
Two Thumbs Up! Nicely put.
Love this idea. You could also implement this more like "find steed" or "find familiar"
Nice, like this touch a lot.

Looks more like "find steed" in this case. I still like it.

The rest of your suggestion as well: much goodness.

I wonder if Wizards will do something like this. Hopefully, yes.

The reason I don't want to make the Shaman's Spirit Companion a spell is that I don't want a Bard (or later class) poaching it with Magical Secrets or equivalent. I want it to be iconic and special. Shamans, and only Shamans, get Spirit Companions. It defines them.

It's not the holy books so much as it is the intellectual framework; we cannot discuss RW theology in any detail, but since you know archeology you know that as societies gain in sophistication so do their religions. So what I'm aiming for is clergy for people whose understanding of the deities is not as advanced; probably none of them have ever opened a gate to other planes, and even the wisest only dimly understand the idea of the existence of the outer planes. But the aspects of the divine that are present here, now, right next to us, in the bushes and rocks and soil and sky and water; those they can perceive, for they make the effort that a cleric won't bother with. To a Shaman, a Cleric is a person who is "so heavenly minded they're no earthly good".

I'm giving them Paladin spell progression, but I think they are closer to the Druid and the Ranger than any other class. They get Paladin spell progression because the Ranger progression is too weak. They don't get Druid spell progression because of balance issues; I'd have to nerf the Spirit Companion pretty hard, down to Beastmaster Animal Companion levels, if the Shaman got full casting.

[KorvinStarmast]

The reason I don't want to make the Shaman's Spirit Companion a spell is that I don't want a Bard (or later class) poaching it with Magical Secrets or equivalent. Find Steed is a class ability masquerading as a spell. :smallbiggrin: You could make it a class ability, but I get the Beast Master idea as well.
I want it to be iconic and special. Shamans, and only Shamans, get Spirit Companions. It defines them.
Completely agree with this idea.

It's not the holy books so much as it is the intellectual framework; we cannot discuss RW theology in any detail, but since you know archeology you know that as societies gain in sophistication so do their religions. Which explains fundamentalism ... no, we are not running down that rat hole! I'll accept the point you are making for this game concept. :smallsmile:
So what I'm aiming for is clergy for people whose understanding of the deities is not as advanced; probably none of them have ever opened a gate to other planes, and even the wisest only dimly understand the idea of the existence of the outer planes. This is where we may part conceptual company: I see their spiritual forte as being more intuitive and less studied, more an inner awakening than learned, but no less profound in terms of being able to grasp and manipulate energies from other planes ... which is where spirits and deities both hold court.

But the aspects of the divine that are present here, now, right next to us, in the bushes and rocks and soil and sky and water; those they can perceive, for they make the effort that a cleric won't bother with. Understand the nature based animism you are looking for.

To a Shaman, a Cleric is a person who is "so heavenly minded they're no earthly good". Well, that Shaman's probably a bigot, and too uncivilized to recognize such. :smallyuk: Clerics are people persons. Have to be, to keep the believers believing in the correct deity. (theirs)

I think they are closer to the Druid and the Ranger than any other class.
Yep.

They get Paladin spell progression because the Ranger progression is too weak. They don't get Druid spell progression because of balance issues; I'd have to nerf the Spirit Companion pretty hard, down to Beastmaster Animal Companion levels, if the Shaman got full casting. Sensible approach.

[Shining Wrath]

Occasionally I amaze myself with my own brilliance, he said in all humility.

That bit about not really "getting" the higher planes? It gives us archetypes.

Some Shamans are attuned to the Elemental Planes and Elemental Spirits. They get an Elemental Spirit Companion that can take on elemental forms (we may have to invent a few more). They get bonus spells and features that are elemental flavored.
Some Shamans are attuned to the Feywild and Fey Spirits. They get a Fey Spirit Companion as described above (beast forms like a druid). They get bonus spells and features that are fey flavored.
Some Shamans are attuned to the Shadow Plane and Shadow spirits. They get a Shadow Spirit Companion that can take on the form of Undead. They get bonus spells and features that are necromancer flavored. They are, probably, never good aligned, or if they start out good, they tend to drift, because they are always in close company with and attuned to a creature of Pure Evil MWAHAHAHAHAHA.

[KorvinStarmast]

Some Shamans are attuned to the Shadow Plane and Shadow spirits. They get a Shadow Spirit Companion that can take on the form of Undead. They get bonus spells and features that are necromancer flavored. They are, probably, never good aligned, or if they start out good, they tend to drift, because they are always in close company with and attuned to a creature of Pure Evil MWAHAHAHAHAHA.
[/LIST]
And so the Voodoo Shaman/Witch Doctor arrives, on schedule. Since the games already have zombies, why the heck not!

I like your outline, but you are right, a few more critters are needed to add to the MM to allow these to be fleshed out.

Or, like find steed, the spirit arrives but the beast/animal is mundane.

Heh: I had this vision of a Shaman aligned with the Fire Elemental getting a Hell Hound as his spirit companion at very late levels.

Whoa!

[Nifft]

Occasionally I amaze myself with my own brilliance, he said in all humility.

That bit about not really "getting" the higher planes? It gives us archetypes.

Some Shamans are attuned to the Elemental Planes and Elemental Spirits. They get an Elemental Spirit Companion that can take on elemental forms (we may have to invent a few more). They get bonus spells and features that are elemental flavored.
Some Shamans are attuned to the Feywild and Fey Spirits. They get a Fey Spirit Companion as described above (beast forms like a druid). They get bonus spells and features that are fey flavored.
Some Shamans are attuned to the Shadow Plane and Shadow spirits. They get a Shadow Spirit Companion that can take on the form of Undead. They get bonus spells and features that are necromancer flavored. They are, probably, never good aligned, or if they start out good, they tend to drift, because they are always in close company with and attuned to a creature of Pure Evil MWAHAHAHAHAHA.


Nice. I like it, and may steal it.

For the Shadow Spirit case, IMHO a decent direction might be an Ancestor Spirit -- thus, it's clearly associated with the dead, but it's not necessarily malevolent. Ancestors might be benevolent heroes! (... or not, of course.)

Ancestor Worship bridges a nice gap between dead-as-slaves Arcane Necromancy and dead-as-enemy Divine Orthodoxy.

[Shining Wrath]

And so the Voodoo Shaman/Witch Doctor arrives, on schedule. Since the games already have zombies, why the heck not!

I like your outline, but you are right, a few more critters are needed to add to the MM to allow these to be fleshed out.

Or, like find steed, the spirit arrives but the beast/animal is mundane.

Heh: I had this vision of a Shaman aligned with the Fire Elemental getting a Hell Hound as his spirit companion at very late levels.

Whoa!

Yep. I don't think a Hell Hound is that high of CR, so if we're going to top out at CR 6, it ought to be doable. But we need a whole family of elementals; I may just have to create one of each element that scales as it gets bigger. The CR 0 water elemental is about right for putting out a torch; the CR 6 water elemental is rather more impressive.


Nice. I like it, and may steal it.

For the Shadow Spirit case, IMHO a decent direction might be an Ancestor Spirit -- thus, it's clearly associated with the dead, but it's not necessarily malevolent. Ancestors might be benevolent heroes! (... or not, of course.)

Ancestor Worship bridges a nice gap between dead-as-slaves Arcane Necromancy and dead-as-enemy Divine Orthodoxy.

ooooo, now we've got a problem, because all the MM Undead are explicitly evil. In my campaign, any Undead involves pulling an Animating Spirit from the Shadow Plane to keep it "alive" (except ghosts and revenants, where the undead is really the soul of a person sticking around to finish some business). And Animating Spirits are not nice, they are creations of Orcus and similar fun fellows.

But I can see homebrewing a whole bunch of forms for the Ancestor Spirit to take that are "undead, but with completely different names!" replacements.

[Nifft]

ooooo, now we've got a problem, because all the MM Undead are explicitly evil. Untrue: Revenant is neutral.

There may be others, but that's one off the top of my head.

EDIT: Ghosts can be of any alignment, so a Lawful Good undead is explicitly supported.

[Shining Wrath]

Untrue: Revenant is neutral.

There may be others, but that's one off the top of my head.

EDIT: Ghosts can be of any alignment, so a Lawful Good undead is explicitly supported.

I didn't write very carefully; Revenants and ghosts are not always evil.

[MrStabby]

Just responding to the point about not making spirit companion a spell so it can't be magical secreted...

Why not have it a bit like eldritch blast - a powerful class feature coded as a spell but only working to its full power in conjunction with another class feature.



I would like to see the shaman get one cantrip at first level, but that be one that is a strong class feature

Spirit Companion
Spirit Form
Spirit Guide

and so on...

As this can combine with different archetypes (like warlock patrons combine with different pact options) it would give a lot of different feelings/styles on one chassis.

[Shining Wrath]

Just responding to the point about not making spirit companion a spell so it can't be magical secreted...

Why not have it a bit like eldritch blast - a powerful class feature coded as a spell but only working to its full power in conjunction with another class feature.



I would like to see the shaman get one cantrip at first level, but that be one that is a strong class feature

Spirit Companion
Spirit Form
Spirit Guide

and so on...

As this can combine with different archetypes (like warlock patrons combine with different pact options) it would give a lot of different feelings/styles on one chassis.

Just for clarification, I don't think Eldritch Blast is something you can get via Magical Secrets, I think those have to be level 1 or higher.

Giving Shamans something like Invocations rather than spell progression actually could be pretty flavorful. You attune yourself to different spirits present in the world around you and get different powers, e.g., attuning yourself to the spirits of air gives you advantage on any Perception check that involves hearing.

[Nifft]

Just for clarification, I don't think Eldritch Blast is something you can get via Magical Secrets, I think those have to be level 1 or higher. Eldritch Blast can be gotten with Spell Sniper and similar Cantrip-granting features.


Giving Shamans something like Invocations rather than spell progression actually could be pretty flavorful. You attune yourself to different spirits present in the world around you and get different powers, e.g., attuning yourself to the spirits of air gives you advantage on any Perception check that involves hearing.

Or both.

Just like what a Warlock gets.

[Kryx]

Anyone played PattyCakeee's Shaman (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_nWetzsxhoLeU5rQ1NURUstTTg/edit)? Seems the best I've seen.

[MrStabby]

Anyone played PattyCakeee's Shaman (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_nWetzsxhoLeU5rQ1NURUstTTg/edit)? Seems the best I've seen.

Actually I don't really like that one. I kind of don't really get the point of it - I didn't feel it let you make a lot of changes that refluffing and/or multiclassing couldn't get. It is beautifully formatted though; I wish I could make my offerings look that good.

[Kryx]

Actually I don't really like that one. I kind of don't really get the point of it - I didn't feel it let you make a lot of changes that refluffing and/or multiclassing couldn't get. It is beautifully formatted though; I wish I could make my offerings look that good.
A ranger is just a MC Druid + Fighter, and yet it exists.

Spiritual Animal would only work as a BM ranger which is much maligned. And then it would have to slow it's spell casting.

Do you have a better version?

[squiggit]

Steal the spirit companion from 4e and focus a lot of its class features on manipulating that spirit. You could even make it subclasses based on which spirit you took.

Spellcasting gets a stronger emphasis on buffing/debuffing with a lot more divination and necromancy than your typical druid setup.

If anything it'd probably look closer to a cleric than a druid.

[MrStabby]

A ranger is just a MC Druid + Fighter, and yet it exists.

Spiritual Animal would only work as a BM ranger which is much maligned. And then it would have to slow it's spell casting.

Do you have a better version?

There are a lot of things that exist that shouldn't. That said I am a fan of more options. I think that if the shaman were to be introduced it should be a bit more unique, have its own feel and be different from the other classes.

Personally I haven't done a "better" version, although I imaging a quick search on the homebrew forum might turn up half a dozen. Again, "better" just means matching what I would look for in terms of balance, interest and creativity. I am not saying it would be badwrongfun for someone else to enjoy the class you linked to. Now if you are laying down a challenge to produce another version as an alternative I would be more than happy to to pull together some suggestions.

[Kane0]

Easy, give the shaman short rest casting. Then the Warlock has a caster buddy, and the other casters (especially druids) don't feel like their turf is being encroached upon.

Instead of invocations do something like spirit boons, and swap out the pacts for animal/elemental affinities. Instead of a focusing on blasting with EB give them buff/healing abilities, but not powerful enough to outperform a bard or life cleric.

[Kryx]

Now if you are laying down a challenge to produce another version as an alternative I would be more than happy to to pull together some suggestions.
I would like to see an alternative version that you find to be better, sure.

@Kane: using the Warlock chassis isn't easy. Warlock is balanced around higher dpr from eb. Making another casting class on the same chassis without eb would be less powerful than the other 9th level casters without tweaking.

[djreynolds]

I see the shaman as perhaps a death or knowledge cleric with access to wizard divination spells. Whether he's a Greek prophet speaking with the Furies, or an African plainsmen type he's accessing the spirit world for knowledge. And with that said even a warlock could take on aspects of that.
Often monsters have clerics, who are called shaman instead and take on a leadership mantle.
However I could see a nature type in a Native American shaman such as the bad guy in "Missing." Crafter of poisons and curses.
A cleric warlock hybrid may give you the entire package. He can lead, fight, heal, and commune.

[jkat718]

Personally, I think that a Shaman archetype could be the rejuvenating kick to the rear that the Ranger class so desperately needs. :smallwink:

[Nifft]

Personally, I think that a Shaman archetype could be the rejuvenating kick to the rear that the Ranger class so desperately needs. :smallwink:

I think of a Ranger as a guy with a bow and a sword, who is good at combat.

I think of a Shaman as a guy who prefers to avoid direct combat.

They share the idea of being outdoorsy types, but beyond that, they don't necessarily seem similar to me.


(That said, I would like it if Rangers got more nice things.)

[Princess]

@jkat718 & @Nifft

I definitely lean towards primary caster or at least warlock level casting for a Shaman class - because otherwise it'll feel a lot like cultural chauvinism. "Oh, you guys out here away from the city don't have any *real* magic, huh?" is a trope best left to individual settings, and not an assumed default. It reminds me of some of the more embarrassing aspects of the 2E Maztica box set. And a realworld Shaman is fundamentally just another culture's take on what actual Druids or Clerics did and in many cases still do, so their fantastical versions should remain roughly comparable.

And just like Clerics and Druids, the degree to which a Shaman would get involved in direct combat should be variable with it's archetypes. Some should be more focused on a support role (Most of their archetypes, if they have more than 2), with at least one "war shaman" sort of path available as well.

[djreynolds]

I've always seen the druid as a loner and someone to be avoided. But shaman is like charisma based cleric. I guess I would have to see how you envision he gains his powers. Must he perform rites and rituals before the day's work. Does he go through trances? I've always seen a shaman as either a Native American priest, or a witch doctor. He serves as both priest and wizard and his spells are more divining, controlling, and cursing than direct damage and wrath of the gods stuff.

That said I would like to see you take and spell selection. I like druids but I can't get the Celtic image out of my mind to see him different.