Path of War Boss NPC

[Captain Morgan]

Hey guys, what would be your recommendation for building a boss NPC with the initiator classes? Ideally I would like something that keeps mysticism to a minimum and doesn't rely on party buff mechanics. I realize it's hard to make an effect single opponent encounter in Pathfinder but I'd like to try, possibly by giving this guy multiple turns on initiative.

What class, disciplines, and maneuvers would make for a fun and challenging encounter juggling multiple opponents? I'm thinking maybe a Bushi Warlord as a starting point? Something in a swordsmen, with samurai flavor being a plus.

I'd like maneuvers that can confound multiple opponents at once without necessarily just one shot killing them. Some sort of parry mechanic might be cool.

[Tuvarkz]

You will at least want some of the Iron Tortoise, Scarlet Throne, Elemental Flux, or Shattered Mirror counters. Take Scarlet Eye's Perception if the tank is of the heavy armor kind; and maybe Fading Strike so the boss can get the jump on the spellcasters too.

[Azoth]

I like the idea of a Warder more for a boss encounter. Extended Defense with a good counter can keep him alive a turn or two longer by shutting down the groups DPR. You can use Zweihander Sentinel archetype to use the pommel of a katana as your shield for Iron Tortoise maneuvers.

I would consider Veiled Moon and either Riven Hourglass or Shattered Mirror as the main focus for offense, and then use Iron Tortoise just to defend.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If he fights with minions, a warlord could be fun.

[Captain Morgan]

I like the idea of a Warder more for a boss encounter. Extended Defense with a good counter can keep him alive a turn or two longer by shutting down the groups DPR. You can use Zweihander Sentinel archetype to use the pommel of a katana as your shield for Iron Tortoise maneuvers.

I would consider Veiled Moon and either Riven Hourglass or Shattered Mirror as the main focus for offense, and then use Iron Tortoise just to defend.

I like this idea a lot. A Zweihander Defensive Focus with the Zeihander makes a really sweet battlefield control effect.

I'm thinking I will put him at level 12, and maybe scale him up if I decide to save him for later in the campaign. Got any recommendations for specific maneuvers and stances?

Also, can anyone point me to all the material I would need to purchase to make this guy?

[IZ42]

If you want a minimum of mysticism, I would recommend Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, and Black Seraph, which IIRC are all pretty mundane disciplines but provide tons of damage. To make the character, go to d20pfsrd.com and find the path of war section and go to town. Also go to the PoW: Expanded thread here.

[mostholycerebus]

What about the duel-spiked-shield wielding Warder? That's a memorable opponent.

What levels and classes are in your party?

[Sayt]

If you want a minimum of mysticism, I would recommend Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, and Black Seraph, which IIRC are all pretty mundane disciplines but provide tons of damage. To make the character, go to d20pfsrd.com and find the path of war section and go to town. Also go to the PoW: Expanded thread here.

Black Seraph lets you shoot black beams of pure evil at people, and conjure razorsharp feathers to cut people up. I'd probably go with Broken Blade or Iron Tortoise for mundane melee.

[IZ42]

I don't mess around with Black Seraph much, didn't know what it was all about really.

[Captain Morgan]

What about the duel-spiked-shield wielding Warder? That's a memorable opponent.

What levels and classes are in your party?
The guy has already showed up but I didn't have stats for him, and he is established as a swordsman. More specifically a Katana user.

Party is currently level 5, but this guy won't be a conquerable opponent for a while yet. They have just started poking the bear ahead of schedule so I should probably build him.

(There has been plenty of narrative indication that they aren't strong enough to mess with this guy yet, but they have pushed their luck quite a bit.)

They are well optimized, and consist of:

Spirit Guide Lore Oracle
Blaster Sorcerer
Natural attack bar-bear-ian
Unchained Rogue
Sacred Hunt master/preacher Inquisitor Archer

I am actually really liking the look of a bushi Zweihander mitral current focused guy. Having finally found the mithral current maneuver list, it really fits the flavor I want, especially being so counter heavy.

I don't just want this guy to do copious amounts of damage. I want the party to hav to struggle to figure out how to fight this guy, as he counters their melee, disrupts their spells, and sunders their weapons as they realize they are still caught in his threat range.

This is more important to me than just hitting the party for tremendous damage.

[Felyndiira]

I'm just curious, but are your players familiar with Path of War or Tome of Battle (namely, the boost-strike-counter system)?

How effective a mostly counter-based character can be depends pretty heavily on that. Even if they don't know Mithral Current's maneuvers itself, if they know that counters are immediate action and such, they can figure out ways to get around the counters pretty easily (for instance, Oracle casts a spell. Samurai rushes forward to Disruptive Wave it, and gets hit by three melee attacks that he can't counter anymore). Even with extended defense, you can't use different named counters in the same round, so you're locked into either Flowing Creek or Disruptive Wake for any one round and quickly vulnerable to the other.

Your casters might even figure out that Disruptive Wave requires a charge on first glance, and thus can be defeated by a melee standing in the way. This build is one that relies on the initial shock to be able to be effective; once your casters figure out his trick, he's really easy to counter. The ACF on Armitger's Mark isn't going to change this.

I feel that you're really locking yourself out of a lot of Zweihander Sentinel's power by choosing Katana as your weapon. At level 6, the Zweihander Sentinel can attack 5' or 10' with a polearm (which is a discipline weapon for Mithral Current), while a Katana still can only attack 5' on his turn (only the threat range is increased to 10'). Since this build relies on range, a polearm might be a better investment. Also, if you are depending mainly on the Combat Patrol effect to expand his threat range and your counters for movement, your PCs are going to find that pattern and use that against you.

You'll probably have to shore up your CMD with a AC-focused stance. Human targets are the easiest to perform maneuvers against, and the Warder doesn't necessarily have defenses against that. Once the sentinel is tripped, he's probably not going to be very effective for the remainder of the fight; and if he counters the trip attempts, he just left himself open to spells that are likely more dangerous.

I guess it comes down to how familiar they are with the ToB/PoW mechanics. For players who are new to it, the encounter will likely seem exciting. I would think that a bunch of Veteran Players with ToB knowledge will likely see through the character's weakness, though.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm just curious, but are your players familiar with Path of War or Tome of Battle (namely, the boost-strike-counter system)?

How effective a mostly counter-based character can be depends pretty heavily on that. Even if they don't know Mithral Current's maneuvers itself, if they know that counters are immediate action and such, they can figure out ways to get around the counters pretty easily (for instance, Oracle casts a spell. Samurai rushes forward to Disruptive Wave it, and gets hit by three melee attacks that he can't counter anymore). Even with extended defense, you can't use different named counters in the same round, so you're locked into either Flowing Creek or Disruptive Wake for any one round and quickly vulnerable to the other.

Your casters might even figure out that Disruptive Wave requires a charge on first glance, and thus can be defeated by a melee standing in the way. This build is one that relies on the initial shock to be able to be effective; once your casters figure out his trick, he's really easy to counter. The ACF on Armitger's Mark isn't going to change this.

I feel that you're really locking yourself out of a lot of Zweihander Sentinel's power by choosing Katana as your weapon. At level 6, the Zweihander Sentinel can attack 5' or 10' with a polearm (which is a discipline weapon for Mithral Current), while a Katana still can only attack 5' on his turn (only the threat range is increased to 10'). Since this build relies on range, a polearm might be a better investment. Also, if you are depending mainly on the Combat Patrol effect to expand his threat range and your counters for movement, your PCs are going to find that pattern and use that against you.

You'll probably have to shore up your CMD with a AC-focused stance. Human targets are the easiest to perform maneuvers against, and the Warder doesn't necessarily have defenses against that. Once the sentinel is tripped, he's probably not going to be very effective for the remainder of the fight; and if he counters the trip attempts, he just left himself open to spells that are likely more dangerous.

I guess it comes down to how familiar they are with the ToB/PoW mechanics. For players who are new to it, the encounter will likely seem exciting. I would think that a bunch of Veteran Players with ToB knowledge will likely see through the character's weakness, though.

I think you have an accurate assessment, but as far as I know my players have zero ToB knowledge. That could be wrong, but only one player strikes me as maybe having the mechanical familiarity to figure it out, and I think limiting tactical conversation to what can be exchanged mid combat would probably limit that factor.

I'm OK with them figuring out how to beat the pattern. When they do, the guy can switch to a more offensive strike oriented style.

This is helpful to point out though! I had already been considering giving the guy two turns per round, at different points in the inactive. That will alliaviate some of the counter shortage problems.

I had also been considering giving him an alchemist cohort with infusion, for enlarge person. CMD boost plus Moar Threat Range.

Party doesn't seem to trip, but the bar-bear-ian has sick grapple. Ring of freedom of movement might be in order.

The Katana vs pole arm... It need not be a Katana, but I'd like it to be a sword. Honestly though, I'm not really seeing the need to be able to do a regular stab at 10 feet? Either I'm using a move and strike, in which case I can set up my ideal distance, or I'm full round defending, in which case I am just using the AoO anyway. Are there strikes I'm overlooking that will be improved by the added reach?

[Captain Morgan]

I can also choose the battlefield to suit his needs. Let's see then escape his combat patrol in a small room. :)

[Felyndiira]

If it's a closed room with little maneuvering space, then you might not need it. The polearm will let you disarm and sunder at a 10' range, though it's most useful when enlarged (since his reach then increases to 20', and he can sunder from four squares away).

If your players are not familiar with the initiator system, then this will definitely be a fun and memorable encounter for them :smallsmile:.

[mostholycerebus]

The Katana vs pole arm... It need not be a Katana, but I'd like it to be a sword. Honestly though, I'm not really seeing the need to be able to do a regular stab at 10 feet? Either I'm using a move and strike, in which case I can set up my ideal distance, or I'm full round defending, in which case I am just using the AoO anyway. Are there strikes I'm overlooking that will be improved by the added reach?


Its useful in general to be able to strike at 10'. It allows for more freedom in positioning, and can also help use up the PCs 5' steps on their turn. If they have to 5' step to close with you, that means they can't 5' step away, or 5' step to draw you into a worse position, etc.

If you are adding cohorts, the Warder opens up alot of options. Like, Armigers marking a PC with Powerful Mark so they take -6 to hit anyone else, then ducking behind your Cohort or terrain so the Warder cant be targeted easily, or without drawing AOO. Remember that cohorts within 10' also get +1AC. Litter piles of difficult terrain around to stop PC charges, and 5' steps. The Warder can take a feat that still allows him to move through such terrain, even charging, if you wanna also take Martial Charge.

Warders are tactical fighters that specialize in Intelligence, he would likely pick the place of combat and set up every advantage he possibly can to win.

That said, I dont think you need to 'cheat' by giving the boss an extra action every turn.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually have a Warder/Harbinger multiclass build that makes attacking the character a "Damned if you do, damned if you don", the core of it is mixing Armingers mark with the Dark authority and Grasp of Darkness feats (from the PoW:E playtest).

You claim up to 3 enemies per turn, giving them a -3 to attacking the Warder/Harbinger and then you use arminger's mark on them, giving them up to a -8 if they don't attack him, as I said before "Damned if you do, damned if you don't", note that it would probably be extremely frustrating to play against this, so if you decided to go with it, you should keep it as a last resource, otherwise your PC's might get angry.

[Elricaltovilla]

I guess it's about time I reared my ugly head in this thread.

A ZS Bushi Warder is a good place to start for a boss. If you want defensive mechanics and a combat maneuver focus you'll want to focus on the following three disciplines: Eternal Guardian, Iron Tortoise and Mithral Current. Fortunately, they're all native disciplines for ZS Bushi.

Eternal Guardian has a heavy focus on combat maneuvers and its curses can go a long way to foil your party's usual tactics. Iron Tortoise is good at just straight up negating things, and Mithral Current offers lots of mobility on top of its focus on counter attacks. You will need to be careful with Eternal Guardian and Mithral Current as their damage can get out of hand pretty quickly, stick to low level strikes and mostly use counters or boosts in place of more damaging effects.

At 10th level, your ZS Bushi's Defensive focus becomes difficult terrain, which can go a long way to locking down your enemies, note that this difficult terrain doesn't affect the boss man at all.

Feats and build wise, you're probably going to want to go Strength focused, so that you don't have to put down a bunch of extra feats that take up space. If you want to make the most of combat maneuvers though, you're looking at a very heavy investment. Most likely you'll need:

Martial Power (instead of Combat Expertise)
Combat Reflexes (Free for Warders, keys off INT)
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm
Improved Sunder
Seize the Opportunity (so that you can Combat Maneuver with your AoOs)
Quick Draw (free for bushi)
Mixed Combat (free for bushi)

Something else you'll want is some way to get Large size. The increase in threatened area is extremely useful as it makes it harder for your PCs to avoid him and it makes moving around in his Defensive Focus zone much more efficient. You'll want to scatter obstacles throughout the battlefield (as others have said) and a few extra mooks to balance the action economy and provide distractions will also help.

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks so much for the input! Does anyone have any advice on a good default stance out of these disciplines? It seems somewhat unlikely that he will get many opportunities to shift stances given the action economy disparity so the choice seems really important. Anything that combos especially well with his AoOs?