Prestige classes for core Sorcerer

[Raul Leão]

So, i was thinking of a prestige class for my character, and i didnt find nice things in the Core books, but the arcane trickster got my attention in one point:

I can get summon monsters to summon monster "behind" the enemies, so anyone who attacks them, get +2 by flanking. Our rogue will always hit the sneak attack if they dont moved yet... And if i get arcane trickster ill also get the sneak attacks too....

Its a nice idea? Im already lv2 sorcerer, so ill get 3 rogue/2 sorcerer, and level up sorcerer until be able to level up in arcane trickster.
There is a better prestige class to choose?

OBS: Just remember that i can only use the core books

[Urpriest]

So, i was thinking of a prestige class for my character, and i didnt find nice things in the Core books, but the arcane trickster got my attention in one point:

I can get summon monsters to summon monster "behind" the enemies, so anyone who attacks them, get +2 by flanking. Our rogue will always hit the sneak attack if they dont moved yet... And if i get arcane trickster ill also get the sneak attacks too....

Its a nice idea? Im already lv2 sorcerer, so ill get 3 rogue/2 sorcerer, and level up sorcerer until be able to level up in arcane trickster.
There is a better prestige class to choose?

OBS: Just remember that i can only use the core books

With just core resources, you'll be pretty fragile, so going into melee will be rough.

I agree that there aren't a ton of other options for core Sorcerors (by the way, I'm assuming by Core you mean PHB+DMG+MM...Core means different things to different people, so it's good to be explicit). Archmage (eventually) can be nice, but there isn't a lot to fill in the intervening levels.

[Raul Leão]

Well, my core is DMG + PHB + MM haha

Ranged spells cant count as sneak atacks?

That high arcana thing of the archmages (the only thing it has different from sorcerer) i only like the one that substitutes the level 9 spell, cause being a sorcerer, i wont have much spells to sobstitute for the high arcana ones....

[Jormengand]

Two levels (and no more) of arcane archer are... well, worse than straight sorcerer, but nearly everything is, so get used to that. But cool if you want to shoot the barbarian with an antimagic field and send him to go kill wizards.

Sorcerer 8/Rogue 1/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10 is another way of losing 2 caster levels, this time to get lots of sneak attack goodies.

Archmage is fine, but ehh. I don't really like any of the abilities much. Free reach spell is neat, though.

Dragon Disciple is not a proper sorcerer prestige class. Pretend it doesn't exist.

Taking Sorcerer 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 is... uh, a way to get more hit points I guess? You probably don't actually want to use the extra base attack bonus, though turning Transformation on might work. If you know Transformation for some reason.

Loremaster doesn't lose you anything except the prerequisites, which aren't that bad anyway. Go play a loremaster.

Mystic Theurge is decent; you can get Cleric 9th-level spells and sorcerer 6th-levels, or sorcerer 8th-levels and cleric 7th-levels. It's better with Wizard/Cleric to get 9ths and 7ths though.

Thaumaturgist has easy prerequisites, awesome benefits, and loses you no caster levels. Oh, and it's short enough that you can be a sorcerer, a loremaster and a thaumaturgist at the same time. I recommend sorcerer 5/thaumaturgist 5/loremaster 10.

[Urpriest]

Well, my core is DMG + PHB + MM haha

Ranged spells cant count as sneak atacks?


They can, but that has nothing to do with flanking, and it sounds in your post like you were going to be trying to flank.

[Raul Leão]

But to be a thaumaturgist i have to cast lv 4 cleric spells.... i really lik the thaumaturgist, loved the summoning buffs, but i donw want to miss too many level ins sorcerer to get levels in cleric...

I forgot that ranged attacks doenst count as sneaking... sorry about that

[Jormengand]

Oh, yeah. Misread that as binding, not ally. Well, wait until you can cast 7th-level spells, and then take Limited Wish. Bam, you can cast Lesser Planar Ally.

[Urpriest]

But to be a thaumaturgist i have to cast lv 4 cleric spells.... i really lik the thaumaturgist, loved the summoning buffs, but i donw want to miss too many level ins sorcerer to get levels in cleric...

I forgot that ranged attacks doenst count as sneaking... sorry about that

So to clarify, you can still totally make sneak attacks with ranged attacks, you just can't use flanking to do it. If that's what you want to do, then at higher levels you can use spells like Greater Invisibility to make sure your opponents can't see you, and then hit them with ray spells with sneak attack damage tacked on. It's far less damage than a normal rogue could deal, but it can be a lot more versatile and helps keep your ray spells relevant. If you do go for this option, I'd definitely recommend using Rogue and Assassin rather than three levels of Rogue, though, so you eventually end up with a 9th level spell if your game goes to level 20.

That said, if you didn't plan to be an Arcane Trickster starting out then you shouldn't feel forced to change your character concept. If you're just looking for ways to be a better Sorceror, then pretty much your only option is taking Archmage at later levels, but that's still not a bad option per se. (You can't qualify for Loremaster in Core without a dip in another class since you only have Knowledge(Arcana) as a class skill.)

[Raul Leão]

I can summon some monsters to grapple my opponents, so they loose DEX bonus and take magical sneak attacks right?

I really loved the thaumaturgist, ill focus my character on summoning, so it has a huge sinergy, i like that Wish thing, i complete the pre requisits of the class and give me any spell that i want (5- level), its really helpfull since i dont have much spells as a sorcerer.

[Troacctid]

Grappling works, but remember that if you attack into a grapple, there's a chance you hit the wrong target unless you have the Improved Precise Shot feat.

[Nifft]

Other ways to ensure a loss of Dex bonus:
- Greater Invisibility (as mentioned above)
- Hold Monster
- Grease
- Power Word: Stun
- Power Word: Blind

[Raul Leão]

So...

If i become an arcane trickster:

Pros:
_ +7d6 sneak attack
_ Ranged Legerdemain
_ Less dependant on spells to deal damage

Cons:
_Loose 2 sorcerers level



If i become a thaumaturgist:

Pros:
_Save 1 feat slot (Augement summoning) that ill get anyway
_Extend summon time
_Not loosin Sorcerer level
_Little cohort


Cons:
_Need to get Limited wish
_Still spell deppendant on battle
_ Only at level 15 (need sorcerer 14 to get Limited wish)



What do you guys would do?

[Urpriest]

So...

If i become an arcane trickster:

Pros:
_ +7d6 sneak attack
_ Ranged Legerdemain
_ Less dependant on spells to deal damage

Cons:
_Loose 2 sorcerers level



If i become a thaumaturgist:

Pros:
_Save 1 feat slot (Augement summoning) that ill get anyway
_Extend summon time
_Not loosin Sorcerer level
_Little cohort


Cons:
_Need to get Limited wish
_Still spell deppendant on battle
_ Only at level 15 (need sorcerer 14 to get Limited wish)



What do you guys would do?

I'd probably save the Arcane Trickster for a future character, since it's much better if you can start with a level of Rogue for the nice x4 skill points. I'd also advise checking with your DM that Limited Wish will work for Thaumaturgist, some probably won't allow it (and your DM doesn't exactly sound like the permissive sort).

[Raul Leão]

Well, to get 1 level of assassin, i must be evil and kill someone just to be an assassin, guess this is against my character principles.... guess i have to go for thaumaturgist.

[ericgrau]

The big pain in the butt with summons is that they don't appear until round 2 of combat so you spend round 1 doing squat diddly. A foe drops in 2 or 3 rounds. Roll low on initiative and things are dying before you've taken your first action. Now consider your rogue buddy with d6 HD, and yourself with d4 and d6 HD. If you start summoning because the rogue is next to a monster, it's too late because either the rogue or that monster is about to drop. But let's say you summon because you expect him to be next to a monster next round. Ok your summon finishes and the rogue just moved next to something. He won't be able to sneak attack it until round 3 which is pitiful. Or you go before the rogue and summon on the other side of a foe. Then hopefully the rogue moves up to it, flanks and sneak attacks. Or the foe goes first and either kills your summon in 1 turn, or moves up to the rogue and ruins the flanking. Your summon gets an attack of opportunity, but its attack is laughable so it misses.

As for your own sneak attack, that's a bit better. You can move an attack during the same round your summon appears, so it's pretty well guaranteed. Lower damage than the pure rogue, but not bad.

So basically you have a small chance of granting the rogue a sneak attack later in the fight. You have a great chance of giving yourself a weaker sneak attack later in the fight. And then the monster counter attacks and you drop because of your low hp.

It's not a terrible strategy, but it's not great.

Other nice triggers are grease, glitterdust and greater invisibility. They are faster but it's harder to give yourself a sneak attack. With grease it might walk/crawl out of it due to the tiny area, or die by your next turn. Or stay prone meaning no SA for you. With glitterdust it has a small area so you only hit 1 or 2 foes and it may save. Especially if you have low level spells because you're an arcane trickster casting glitterdust on mid level foes. Plus if it fails the save, damaging it isn't a big priority anyway. Greater invisibility is really nice but you can only tag one person with it. If you tag yourself with it round 2, then you get to attack round 3 and most of the fight is already over anyway like the above. So for that spell a pure sorcerer is better to only tag 1 ally with it. And all 4 spells put together pump up your effectiveness all the way to meh.

Arcane tricksters get nice with ray spells. They can do ok damage even without sneak attack and if you can manage a trigger you can get a bit more. Especially once you quicken a cantrip for 2 rays per round. But that takes 10th level and only works with wizard entry in core.

In core I think your good sorcerer prestige options are archmage or a paladin 2/sorcerer 6 eldritch knight. Technically dragon disciple too, but then you would only take 1 level of sorcerer, maybe 2. Archmage because it's like more sorcerer levels but better. Sorcadin because of your huge saving throws.

Thaumaturgist is for clerics.

[Jormengand]

Thaumaturgist is for clerics.

Yeah, but that doesn't stop you being a sorcerer and taking it with limited wish. Given that the requirements are a feat you wanted anyway and a spell you wanted anyway, it's probably fine.

[Telonius]

There is another (very much DM-dependent) option: the "primarily" clause in Sorcerer. There was a recent thread about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423413-Sorcerers-learning-non-Sor-Wiz-Spells); it's one of those rules quirks that's been around forever but not many people notice or use.


A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.


These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

If the DM is on board, you could use that to get Planar Ally and qualify for Thaumaturgist. It wouldn't hurt to ask; offer to do some sort of a side quest (or incur some kind of cost in addition to it taking up one of your spells known). If he agrees, you could qualify for the PrC as early as 9th level. If you do get it, you'd even get two additional Knowledge skills on your class list, so you could potentially qualify for Loremaster before 17.

If that doesn't work, see if the Limited Wish idea would.

[Pluto!]

Archmage is the only core PrC I would consider for a sorcerer.

Loremage's prereqs are awful for a Sorc. EK/AT/MT are just worse than straight sorcerer. Thaumaturgist takes shenanigans - not necessarily outrageous shenanigans, but shenanigans nonetheless - and summoning isn't something I like doing with spontaneous casters. Arcane Archer is Arcane Archer.

Core just doesn't have class features that outweigh the costs of PrCing.

[Nifft]

There is another (very much DM-dependent) option: the "primarily" clause in Sorcerer. There was a recent thread about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423413-Sorcerers-learning-non-Sor-Wiz-Spells); it's one of those rules quirks that's been around forever but not many people notice or use.

I certainly never noticed it, but I do like the idea.

[Jormengand]

MT are just worse than straight sorcerer.

No. Having high-level cleric and sorcerer spells is way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, better than just having sorc spells will ever be. It bumps you up a tier instantly. It nearly doubles your spells/day. There is very little bad I have to say about Mystic Theurge. Perhaps the worst bit is the bit where it loses you four levels of cleric.

[Vhaidara]

No. Having high-level cleric and sorcerer spells is way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, better than just having sorc spells will ever be. It bumps you up a tier instantly. It nearly doubles your spells/day. There is very little bad I have to say about Mystic Theurge. Perhaps the worst bit is the bit where it loses you four levels of cleric.

At 20? You have a point. Consider level 8, when the straight sorc just got 4ths and you just got your first level of MT. And are currently using 2nds from both Cleric and Sorc. At CL 4 and 5 respectively.

[Karnith]

At 20? You have a point.
Eh, even at 20 it isn't clear-cut. A core Sorcerer/Cleric/MT isn't going to have access to 9ths on either side where a single-classed Sorcerer (or Cleric) would, so it's up to access to 9ths vs. more 7th-and-lower level spells (with MAD, lower caster level, etc.) as opposed to one just being better.

[Andezzar]

That said, if you didn't plan to be an Arcane Trickster starting out then you shouldn't feel forced to change your character concept. If you're just looking for ways to be a better Sorceror, then pretty much your only option is taking Archmage at later levels, but that's still not a bad option per se. (You can't qualify for Loremaster in Core without a dip in another class since you only have Knowledge(Arcana) as a class skill.)If you take Archmage make sure your DM does not use the RAW for that class. As written it does not improve your CL unless you take the Spell Power High Arcana (which cost a spell slot for each +1).

[ericgrau]

Yeah, but that doesn't stop you being a sorcerer and taking it with limited wish. Given that the requirements are a feat you wanted anyway and a spell you wanted anyway, it's probably fine.

Huh. Didn't think of that. It seems to work by RAW, probably even as RAI. Ok then.

[Pluto!]

At 20? You have a point. Consider level 8, when the straight sorc just got 4ths and you just got your first level of MT. And are currently using 2nds from both Cleric and Sorc. At CL 4 and 5 respectively.

And to add on this, let's just hope the DM isn't taking the MT spell advancement mechanic at RAW.

(It doesn't say that it increases spells known)