Do you enforce LA the player didn't ask for?

[Malimar]

I'm pretty sure of the RAW here (the answer is "yes"), but I'm asking for opinions on whether or not you should, for the sake of everybody's fun.

Say a character is reincarnated into something with a level adjustment. Or a character acquires a template accidentally, or otherwise without asking for it. Maybe it's a template that the PC doesn't even want, even though it ostensibly makes them stronger. For example, they get turned into a vampire (and then somebody kills their sire so they don't have the whole thralldom aspect to deal with).

Do you enforce the level adjustment? Do you ignore it? Reduce it by some number of points? Apply the LA but allow LA buyoff? Something else? Why?

[The Insanity]

Of course I enforce it. If he doesn't want it he should take steps towards removing it (which should be possible if it can be acquired accidentally).

[HammeredWharf]

Generally, I try to avoid it. If it can't be avoided, then yes, I'd enforce it. However, as a DM you can almost always avoid things, especially ones that could ruin a character's build. It's a huge, possibly permanent penalty and should be treated as such.

The bottom line is that you shouldn't tamper with PCs too much. It may be realistic in some situations, but D&D is a very rules-heavy game in which character creation can take hours and no one wants to see their work go to waste.

[Keneth]

LA is a horrible mechanic and I have never used it since the early years of 3E. If you can balance things out without the use of LA, then I urge you to do so.

[Brunks]

I recently had a player reincarnated into a troglodyte. I decided to enforce the LA but not the racial HD. LA buyoff is allowed and encouraged.

I do feel rewards should be rewards. If a template or race change is supposed to be a power increase within the narrative, the mechanics should reflect that. LA is much too harsh in most cases.

Its a clunky concept, a character might feel a template is good, or make them more powerful. But a player will realize the LA will make them much weaker, a notion which doesn't necessarily exist within the game world. Its a discordance within the mechanics of the game.

I'm thinking there might be some sense in offsetting LA with gold. The power of the template replacing the power of magic items the character could've gotten.

Are there any good Homebrew rules out there for LA?

[ComaVision]

You could offset the RHD and LA with Negative Level Adjustments (from Savage Species)

[Malimar]

Are there any good Homebrew rules out there for LA?

There's "treat CR as starting ECL" (CR being usually lower than RHD+LA), which works out to (LA=CR-HD). I don't know if that's good, but it's probably better than regular LA.

[lord_khaine]

There's "treat CR as starting ECL" (CR being usually lower than RHD+LA), which works out to (LA=CR-HD). I don't know if that's good, but it's probably better than regular LA.

I would say this would be more precise if not because it does not take into account the normally huge stat bumb that most PC generating methods give a PC over a normal commoner.

Else to answer the OP, then yes of course i enforce it the same way i would enforce expending spell slots, drowning or level drain, other things that most PC's also try to avoid, but dont always succed in.
Though i think it should also be pointed out that suddenly getting a LA just means the PC would suddenly count as a higher level, and need more xp than the rest of the party to level.

[OldTrees1]

Yes I enforce LA the player got. However I make my own judgement on what the LA should be which is almost always much lower than WotC's RAW.

For example: If one of my players got reincarnated as a Troglodyte, I would give them LA+0 and let them trade in one of their RHD for one of their class levels. I would do the same for if a player asked to be a Troglodyte to begin with. I would do this because Troglodyte RAW is overpriced by at least 2LA & 1 RHD if not both RHD.

Edit: Scratch that, upon further thought I would remove the LA and both RHD for a Troglodyte PC. WotC really miscalculated that badly.

[ryu]

Considering that LA races are literally irrelevant boosts in effectiveness to competent players in most cases? Considering that the same LA drastically harm the people least likely to be able to deal with it? No we don't enforce LA outside of a general unspoken agreement that people taking races with things like inherent spellcasting opens the same level of power to everyone else. Gets people to actually use a wider array of races and not suck for doing so.

We don't leave the RAW often. When we do? It's specifically to spite people attempting to limit what the game can be.

[Sagetim]

I have yet to encounter a situation where my players would get an LA that they didn't ask for, or even get an LA at all, but I would enforce the LA if it applied. If players in one of my games go out and wind up getting turned into vampires, they're going to have to suck that +8 LA. Of course the +8 LA will go away if they get it cured, and depending on the method and how much xp they've gained in the meantime that may result in gaining a level as the xp required for the next level drops through the floor.


I wouldn't, however, enforce the temporary hit dice granted by werecreatures as counting for LA. It's just cruel and unusual. Werebear, for example, has 6 hit dice. But only while it's in bear or hybrid form. And while those hit dice are handy for some extra bab and hp, they aren't permanent features of your character, so they don't count in my eyes for feats, skill points, etc. And since they go away in your humanoid form, instead of being permanent additions to all your forms, I would interpret them to be a perk already accounted for in the ecl modifier of that were-type.

[Seto]

I wouldn't, however, enforce the temporary hit dice granted by werecreatures as counting for LA. It's just cruel and unusual. Werebear, for example, has 6 hit dice. But only while it's in bear or hybrid form. And while those hit dice are handy for some extra bab and hp, they aren't permanent features of your character, so they don't count in my eyes for feats, skill points, etc. And since they go away in your humanoid form, instead of being permanent additions to all your forms, I would interpret them to be a perk already accounted for in the ecl modifier of that were-type.

Does it really work that way in 3.0 ? Because in 3.5 animal Hit Dice sure as hell are permanent (until the affliction is removed) and count in all forms and for all purposes. It's like multiclassing to Animal. The LA is on top of that.

In a game where I am a player, my character just became a Werewolf and, since I didn't want it at first and am reluctant to use it (class levels would have made me better than lycanthrope, although it has a few nice perks), the DM and I made an agreement. I stay a werewolf because RPing it is interesting, but I never use it to its full extent (the hybrid form, frankly the best of both worlds, is forbidden), and I don't take the +2 LA, although I do take the 2 racial HD.

[martixy]

It's not a yes-or-no answer.

This is 3.5. It's NEVER a yes-or-no.

Some templates suck. Some are worth their LA. Most races suck. A few don't. LA is powerful early game, diminishes late-game. That's why LA buyoff is in the SRD.

As such I would only rarely enforce the LA and only if what the player gets in return is good and we've not yet reached the LA buyoff stage for whatever "it" is.

[marphod]

Are there any good Homebrew rules out there for LA?

E6 has its own means of dealing with LA, but that assumes the LA is available at character creation, as it lowers the number of points available in the point buy.

LA Buyoff with LA re-pricing (because WotC was really bad at judging power levels) is the best I know of, but it doesn't work if you are doing advancement via milestones rather than via XP rewards.

The part that makes a replacement for LA is that LA represents something that is very significant at character creation and becomes increasingly irrelevant as a character increases in level.

Back of the hand idea:

Balance all races as 1 HD creatures if you're going to let PCs use the race. If you can't do the concept without racial HD, they shouldn't be played by PCs. A savage-species-like progression for racial HD is fine, as long as there is a 1 HD version of the class.

Increase XP costs for each level by 10%xLA for the first 3 levels. THen subtract 10% from the extra cost; if that's greater than 0, repeat.


Using the PF XP chart as an example (since it is OGL and WotC/3.5 isn't):


level
LA +0
LA +1
LA +2
LA +3
LA +4


1
0
0
0
0
0


2
2,000
2,200
2,400
2,600
2,800


3
5,000 (+3,000)
5,500 (+3,300)
6,000 (+3,600)
6,500 (+3,900)
7,000 (+4,200)


4
9,000 (+4,000)
9,900 (+4,400)
10,800 (+4,800)
11,700 (+5,200)
12,600 (+6,100)


5
15,000 (+6,000)
15,900 (as LA +0)
17,400 (+6,600)
18,900 (+7,200)
20,400 (+7,800)


6
23,000 (+8,000)
23,900 (as LA +0)
26,200 (+8,800)
28,500 (+9,600)
30,800 (+10,400)


7
35,000 (+12,000)
35,900 (as LA +0)
39,400 (+13,200)
42,900 (+14,400)
46,400 (+15,600)


8
51,000 (+16,000)
51,900 (as LA +0)
55,400 (as LA +0)
60,500 (+17,600)
65,600 (+19,200)


9
75,000 (+24,000)
75,900 (as LA +0)
79,400 (as LA +0)
86,900 (+26,400)
94,400 (+28,800)


10
105,000(+30,000)(
105,900 (as LA +0)
109,400 (as LA +0)
119,900 (+33,000)
130,400 (+36,000)


11
155,000(+50,000)
155,900 (as LA +0)
159,400 (as LA +0)
169,900 (as LA +0)
185,400 (+55,000)


12
220,000 (+65,000)
220,900 (as LA +0)
224,400 (as LA +0)
234,900 (as LA +0)
256,900 (+71,500)


13
315,000 (+95,000)
315,900 (as LA +0)
319,400 (as LA +0)
329,900 (as LA +0)
361,400 (+104,500)


14
445,000 (+130,000)
445,900 (as LA +0)
449,400 (as LA +0)
459,900 (as LA +0)
491,400 (as LA +0)



At 20th level, the LA differences are minute (a little over 1% at 46,400 of 3.6 million) for the LA+4), but they are significant until a few levels after the increased cost wares off.

If a character picks up a template, apply the extra LA costs per level, as above. Continue at the +10% rate after the increase would normally wear off, until the full price changed is paid.

(For instance, a 7 level character picks up a +4 LA template. They hit level 8 at 54,200 (Normal level 7, plus the 8 increase of 19,200 surcharge for a LA +4 at that point). They continue to advance at the normal rate for a LA+4 until they hit level 13 at 350,000; to gain level 14, they need to gain 141,400; putting them at the normal XP expenditure expected for a 14th level LA+4 character. Alternatively, a level 4 character picks up a LA+1 template. They have 9000XP. To gain level 5, they need to gain 6,600 (+10% of level 5's normal), putting them at 15,600; they're still not yet at the expected XP costs for a LA+1, so for level 6, they need to spend extra; however, 10% extra would be 8,800,and put them at 24,400 which is more than the 15,900 that would be normal -- so they only need 8,300 (around a 4% surchage), putting them at the expected XP for a LA+1.)

(10% is a guess. at 4 encounters per level, requiring an extra encounter per LA adjustment at low levels might be the right answer, so the cost increase should be +25% per LA, reduced by 25% every 3 levels. That would put a LA+4 at 14th level at less than 600,000 XP. or less than 150,000 later than a LA+0. Even at this rate, the total cost increase at level 20 is under 5%.)

[Taelas]

That's why LA buyoff is in the SRD.

Nitpicking, but: actually, it isn't. It's open content, but it isn't part of the SRD.

As for the topic... It's a messy situation, but as a general rule, I'd follow RAW.

I have some ideas of my own of how to mess around a little with LA, though, so that might be relevant, depending on the game. (If associated classes can exist for CR, why not for LA? Other than it being a pain to calculate.)

[Nifft]

Once, I reincarnated as a Bugbear (2 racial HD, plus some LA).

Being a Bugbear had no synergy with my Druid, and basically killed the character.

I was very unhappy with the RHD & LA, and in the end I abandoned the character and rolled up a new one.

So... I'd suggest not doing that -- or if you do it, then do it knowing that you may kill the character by making it undesirable.

(If the character had been some kind of melee Rogue or Ranger, that would have been a different story. Then being a Bugbear might have had some synergy with a different character concept.)

[rmnimoc]

So, basically the question is how much of a jerk are you?

When you screw with your players, do you just screw with the concepts they wanted to play or do you basically tell them to have their character commit suicide and make a new one?

Well, that's not entirely fair, I've had players end up with LA races or templates they didn't ask for if it: 1. Makes sense in the narrative (by that I mean it adds to the story and play experience) 2. The player agrees that #1 is the case and is willing to play it. 3. I come up with some way to hit the whole party with roughly the same amount of L.A. at once.

Both one and two for me required both one and two every time, while I've pulled off 3 without two few times and it typically works out well because I'm not singling anyone out by being like "Oh, the whims of fate say you're a smelly lizard now and in addition to keeping you from playing the character you wanted here is an additional penalty to the whole party because I hate you all."

I'm the DM, I've got a divine rank of whatever I want it to be and the ability to Rule Zero on a whim. The player's entertainment comes first, then the story I want to tell, then whatever whim crosses my mind, then houserules, then WOTC things.

So basically I'll talk to the player first before forcing them into losing three levels for something they didn't want and go from there on an individual case basis.

With the obvious exception of when they get cursed or smitted. If you piss on the statue of a smelly lizard god you don't get to complain when he makes you into a smelly lizard.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nitpicking, but: actually, it isn't. It's open content, but it isn't part of the SRD.

Are you sure? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

[Keneth]

Are you sure? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

It's Open Game Content. The actual SRD doesn't contain much of what is on d20srd.org, which includes content from Epic Level Handbook and Unearthed Arcana.

But yeah, it's nitpicking. It bears no relevance in almost any conversation, including this one. :smalltongue:

[Hrugner]

Nah, if they acquire some benefit like this in game, I'm more likely to cut it out of loot than I am to cut it out of XP and level gain. The likelihood that they accidentally acquired something that's a perfect fit for their character is just about 0, and likely to be less of a benefit than it first appears. I may look at it if that player starts causing problems within the party, but otherwise it's not worth the hassle.

[eggynack]

I think I'd tend to depend the exact degree of LA enforcement on the nature of the situation. Relevant factors that could raise or lower the number include the actual power level of the race, how well the race works with the class (partially relative to the original), and how powerful the character is relative to the rest of the party. I'd be very unlikely to enforce the full LA, in any case, and in situations where the power level falls between two adjustments, I'd tend to round down.

[Sliver]

I haven't reached a point where such a thing happened in my games, but I think it will depend on the level of the party and how much the player benefits from the template. A caster that becomes a lycanthrope is unlikely to get the LA, but a fighter that gets some size and strength boosting race might get LA, but he'll be able to buy it off. It would depend on how much the character would benefit from the template/new race compared to taking levels.

[Necroticplague]

Yes. As a DM, I am to be impartial with regards to the rules.

Regardless of whether they wanted the power, they are still benefiting from an increase in power. Thus, they pay for it in LA.

[eggynack]

Yes. As a DM, I am to be impartial with regards to the rules.

Regardless of whether they wanted the power, they are still benefiting from an increase in power. Thus, they pay for it in LA.
Sure, but a core question at hand is whether there's actually an increase in power commensurate with the cost. The difference between a template sought and a template forced is that the former will almost always actually represent such an increase in power, or at least a relatively small decrease. But, if you wind up with, say, an ogre beguiler, or a lizardfolk or hobgoblin anything, then the downside dictated by the rules would far outweigh the increase in power. The LA system is borked to hell right from the outset, and when you start working with unintended pairings it moves even further from balanced.

[Necroticplague]

Sure, but a core question at hand is whether there's actually an increase in power commensurate with the cost. The difference between a template sought and a template forced is that the former will almost always actually represent such an increase in power, or at least a relatively small decrease. But, if you wind up with, say, an ogre beguiler, or a lizardfolk or hobgoblin anything, then the downside dictated by the rules would far outweigh the increase in power.

An ogre fighter and an ogre beguiler both gain the exact same benefits. That one chooses not to use them is their prerogative. Same with any other combination. It's always the same increase in power, just not in areas where you're already strong.

[OldTrees1]

An ogre fighter and an ogre beguiler both gain the exact same benefits. That one chooses not to use them is their prerogative. Same with any other combination. It's always the same increase in power, just not in areas where you're already strong.

Savage Species disagrees with you for what its worth although I forget if they used a Minotaur or a Bugbear as an example instead of an Ogre.

[Seto]

An ogre fighter and an ogre beguiler both gain the exact same benefits. That one chooses not to use them is their prerogative. Same with any other combination. It's always the same increase in power, just not in areas where you're already strong.

Yes, but if you're not going to be using them, the point is moot. It's the same logic as associated and non-associated class levels for monsters : giving Bard Levels to a Harpy or an Orc nets them the same benefits, but the Orc's CR increases by half as much as the Harpy's. There is an argument that a DM could fix templates to affect ECL the same way.

EDIT : Oh, other example : loot. What good is it when you give your Fighter a new spellbook and your party Wizard an awesome greatsword ? Not much good. If they swap their items ? They become immensely more useful, but keep the same value. Or they could also sell them. A Template can be as useless as giving a Wizard a really good sword, except they can't give it away or sell it, and it costs them Wizard levels.

[Curmudgeon]

I follow the rules here, as usual. I also follow the LA buyoff rules. Similarly, I follow the rules for curing lycanthropy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#curingLycanthropy).

You might as well ask if I enforce the rules regarding damage the player didn't ask for. It's the same thing. Something happens that the player isn't happy about; that's the adventuring life. If the player doesn't like the consequences, they need to find a way for their character to remedy the situation. Whining for an exception to the rules is not going to work.

[danzibr]

I follow the rules here, as usual. I also follow the LA buyoff rules. Similarly, I follow the rules for curing lycanthropy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#curingLycanthropy).

You might as well ask if I enforce the rules regarding damage the player didn't ask for. It's the same thing. Something happens that the player isn't happy about; that's the adventuring life. If the player doesn't like the consequences, they need to find a way for their character to remedy the situation. Whining for an exception to the rules is not going to work.
Laugh of the day.

For me, it depends. Suppose you're a level 20 Dread Necromancer and gain the Lich template. Should your ECL jump up to 24? That sounds dreadful.

To use an earlier example, suppose you're a regular Joe. Say a level 5 Fighter. You become a Vampire with a ton of cool abilities. Your master gets offed. Now you're pretty strong. Should your ECL jump up to 13? 13 sounds a bit dreadful, but it sure shouldn't stay 5.

[Telonius]

I generally don't make major changes to a character without having the player on board. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to "accidentally" acquire a template. If it's something like lycanthropy, that's curable. Reincarnated into a Gnoll? Wish or Miracle could undo that. Being changed into a vampire? Even assuming this doesn't change the character into an NPC, it's also fixable; destroy the vampire then True Res. If the players don't take that sort of action - if they aren't trying to undo the LA - then they've decided they like the change. At that point, LA is enforced.

[ericgrau]

You should enforce a fair amount of LA. With low optimization that is the full LA, but if your group optimizes a bit then you should reduce the LA by an amount that matches the optimization. Probably not reduced by more than half in the vast majority of groups, and often reduced by only 1 or maybe 2. The player may still want to attempt to remove the template for roleplay reasons, i.e. see Durkula. But the LA shouldn't suck more just because you're playing in a high power group. Also note that, like OotS, in a slow leveling group the temporary bump in power is pretty nice. I mean they'll probably reach the next gate or resolve whatever Durkula is plotting before Durkula falls behind in level at all.

[Chronos]

I wouldn't want players to go around saying "Man, I hope I contract lycanthropy, because that would be awesome!". There's a reason it's considered a curse. If a PC unwillingly contracts lycanthropy, then they have both the benefits and the drawbacks, until they're able to cure it.

[Crake]

I personally use the optional gestalt/LA system in my signature. It's something I came up with for this exact purpose, since I like to throw templates at my players. It scales rather well with LA, making it a diminishing burden on players by the nature of it being a flat xp cost, rather than one that scales with your level (by the fact that it each level costs 1 higher than it would normally). It does work best with savage progression though.

I've playtested it across a few games now, and whenever i run games with the rule in play, i tend to get a mix of people who are willing to try it, and they seem to end up generally on pary with the rest of the party.

The only real downside is it can get rather complicated if you use the optiona gestalt rules, but if you use it purely as an LA system, it's fairly straightforward.

[Taelas]

Are you sure? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

Very.

http://www.d20srd.org/faq.htm

Check the last question.

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't want players to go around saying "Man, I hope I contract lycanthropy, because that would be awesome!". There's a reason it's considered a curse. If a PC unwillingly contracts lycanthropy, then they have both the benefits and the drawbacks, until they're able to cure it.
Well mainly because you need to make checks to control yourself. Once you put in enough skill ranks you can manage it pretty well though.

[Lapsed Pacifist]

I wouldn't want players to go around saying "Man, I hope I contract lycanthropy, because that would be awesome!". There's a reason it's considered a curse. If a PC unwillingly contracts lycanthropy, then they have both the benefits and the drawbacks, until they're able to cure it.

But we're discussing drawbacks that don't exist within the fiction of the game. I can understand a dilemma where a character who becomes a werewolf or vampire is horrified at becoming the kind of monster they've been fighting all along, but put their quest for the cure on hold because their monstrous powers can be used for the greater good, but a situation where a condition in the fiction should make a character much stronger actually in mechanical terms cripples them would be really frustrating.

[atemu1234]

But we're discussing drawbacks that don't exist within the fiction of the game. I can understand a dilemma where a character who becomes a werewolf or vampire is horrified at becoming the kind of monster they've been fighting all along, but put their quest for the cure on hold because their monstrous powers can be used for the greater good, but a situation where a condition in the fiction should make a character much stronger actually in mechanical terms cripples them would be really frustrating.

Ah, the 'Good Roleplaying' and 'Good Mechanics' dilemma.

My way of handling this is often to encourage roleplaying, and use description to point out the morality drift the character is suffering. In the end, it always comes down to the player.

[Tvtyrant]

Basically no. If the player wanted the race or template I would talk to them about spreading out feature access so as to not overwhelm allies. If they don't want the template or race I would simply strip out most of the abilities and make it LA0.