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awa
2015-07-31, 05:13 PM
so I had this idea when I saw a thread about what a normal person who could beat theoretical optimization wizards would look like with out being "anime". The typical things came up impossible or basically be wizards who cast spells by hitting things.

But it got me thinking in books or comics how do the muggles beat the god wizard? My conclusion is they use the one power greater then any spell narrative convince. How hid Conan beat the wizard with an iron body? He found an artifact weapon specifically designed to kill that one wizard by dumb luck.

I don't care enough to make a full class but a class with narrative powers, the how much you would need depends on how powerful the wizards are.

so here's a couple sample powers
narrative powers exist outside the game so no power within the game can hinder or detect them except other narrative powers.

the odds are a million to one) the character chooses the effects of a die roll
And now let me explain my evil plan) target stops for several rnds fascinated while they brag about their evil plan and what there planning on doing to you. attacking ends the effect but the target is flatfooted

didn't see the body) turns out that attack did not quite kill you, your still alive but your foe is absolutely convinced you are dead. this allows you to use inconceivable on that foe.

Inconceivable) the foe literally could not conceive of you attacking him and is thus stunned for the 1st rnd of combat. You must use a set up power to activate inconceivable

Inescapable death trap) if the target plans on killing you he instead puts you in a situation of “certain death ” then leaves.
Insignificant worm) casters with a level at least half of your own consider you beneath their concern. They must either delegate your death to an underling or only target you with spells of half their total level. If they cast the spell and can’t see the effect they assume you to be dead. You may activate inconceivable against this target.
Idiot ball) You control one of the target actions with dms approval for example making them walk close to taunt you face to face.
I have just the thing for that) use some of your wealth pool to retroactively acquire a magic item which you total had all along.
All according to plan) retroactively plan or set up something such as planting explosives to use as a distraction, or bribing a minion to help you at the last moment. This may set up inconceivable if used in the middle of combat.

So what do you think? What other narrative powers can you think up?

Hawkstar
2015-07-31, 05:59 PM
The best way for a Mundane to fight a wizard without using magic themselves is to emulate Captain Carrot's sword - be so nonmagical that magic can't do **** against you, and can't stand before your onslaught. Wall of Force? You can put the cellophane away now. Teleport? You're going nowhere, buster. Contingency? Not on my watch. Orb of Force? Put the popgun down before you hurt yourself. Fireball? ... I could use the tan.

Mr. Mask
2015-07-31, 06:47 PM
An alternative would be a wizard-hunting Batman. They don't out-power the wizard, they out-plan him. He the iron bodied mage from Conan? If there's an artefact that can destroy him, you ask around, and find it. He an invincible deity with an evil army? You know just the ring and volcano to settle that, and how to combine the two. They have an elaborate combat build with summoned monsters, chain lightning, and wards? You worked out it's one weakness.

In DnD class terms, it'd be something like getting bonuses if you studied the mage before fighting. In a proper roleplaying game, you'd just be a player character, faced with the usual challenges.

awa
2015-07-31, 06:59 PM
Yes trying to emulate that stuff would be what the class is all about exactly how much narrative aid you need would be based on how optimized the wizards are. Sauron and kastro kell had built in weaknesses that a little retroactive preparation could level the playing field. High op wizards need a bit more narrative assistance for a truly mundane hero to have a chance.

Mechalich
2015-07-31, 07:15 PM
In most cases a fully optimized - and played with full intelligence and paranoia to utilize the abilities to full extent - 3.X Wizard is significantly more powerful than even high-power high magic spellcaster big bads in most fiction. They effectively approach or exceed the capabilities traditionally ascribed to fictional gods.

Even in high-powered D&D fiction (ex. any book with the word Elminster on the cover) 'mundanes' take a back seat to the decidedly not optimized high-level spellcasters presented in those books.

Ultimately, no matter how good you are with a bow or sword, magic and supernatural abilities above around the 4th spellcasting level have got you beat.

To quote video-game Sima Yi: 'The mind shall vanquish the sword.'

nedz
2015-07-31, 07:20 PM
It depends upon the edition.

AD&D Fighter v Wizard is a much closer fight than 3.5 — provided the Fighter gets in the Wizard's face.

Even in 3.5 it can depend upon OP level — a low OP Wizard isn't very scary since Wizards have a lower floor than Fighters.

awa
2015-07-31, 07:24 PM
In most cases a fully optimized - and played with full intelligence and paranoia to utilize the abilities to full extent - 3.X Wizard is significantly more powerful than even high-power high magic spellcaster big bads in most fiction. They effectively approach or exceed the capabilities traditionally ascribed to fictional gods.

Even in high-powered D&D fiction (ex. any book with the word Elminster on the cover) 'mundanes' take a back seat to the decidedly not optimized high-level spellcasters presented in those books.

Ultimately, no matter how good you are with a bow or sword, magic and supernatural abilities above around the 4th spellcasting level have got you beat.

To quote video-game Sima Yi: 'The mind shall vanquish the sword.'

exactly batman can't beat a wizard who is also batman but with magic on top, not unless the writer is on his side. Narrative powers like Idiot ball and insignificant worm would allow you to deny him his advantages. Exactly how far reaching the narrative powers need to go to even the odds depends on the optimization of the wizard.


Its true a wizard isn't that scary particularly if they are very low op and 2nd edition had a better wizard fighter balance particularly at low levels but that not really what this thread is about.

JAL_1138
2015-07-31, 07:41 PM
Granted 2e had a lot of no-save spells, but in 2e a 20th level Fighter basically couldn't fail a save. If it had a save, a lvl 20 fighter was going to. On...I think it was vs spell, they just needed to roll higher than a 1. Not a typo. A one.

Ralanr
2015-07-31, 09:13 PM
It's usually due to heavy out planning I've noticed. And sometimes a lot of improvisation.

And finding ways to make magic not work. Or hitting them before they can caste a spell.

"Arrows are faster than jinxes" -Seven Realms.

dream
2015-08-01, 12:06 AM
so I had this idea when I saw a thread about what a normal person who could beat theoretical optimization wizards would look like with out being "anime". The typical things came up impossible or basically be wizards who cast spells by hitting things.

But it got me thinking in books or comics how do the muggles beat the god wizard? My conclusion is they use the one power greater then any spell narrative convince. How hid Conan beat the wizard with an iron body? He found an artifact weapon specifically designed to kill that one wizard by dumb luck.

I don't care enough to make a full class but a class with narrative powers, the how much you would need depends on how powerful the wizards are.

so here's a couple sample powers
narrative powers exist outside the game so no power within the game can hinder or detect them except other narrative powers.

the odds are a million to one) the character chooses the effects of a die roll
And now let me explain my evil plan) target stops for several rnds fascinated while they brag about their evil plan and what there planning on doing to you. attacking ends the effect but the target is flatfooted

didn't see the body) turns out that attack did not quite kill you, your still alive but your foe is absolutely convinced you are dead. this allows you to use inconceivable on that foe.

Inconceivable) the foe literally could not conceive of you attacking him and is thus stunned for the 1st rnd of combat. You must use a set up power to activate inconceivable

Inescapable death trap) if the target plans on killing you he instead puts you in a situation of “certain death ” then leaves.
Insignificant worm) casters with a level at least half of your own consider you beneath their concern. They must either delegate your death to an underling or only target you with spells of half their total level. If they cast the spell and can’t see the effect they assume you to be dead. You may activate inconceivable against this target.
Idiot ball) You control one of the target actions with dms approval for example making them walk close to taunt you face to face.
I have just the thing for that) use some of your wealth pool to retroactively acquire a magic item which you total had all along.
All according to plan) retroactively plan or set up something such as planting explosives to use as a distraction, or bribing a minion to help you at the last moment. This may set up inconceivable if used in the middle of combat.

So what do you think? What other narrative powers can you think up?
What system are you using here? Without that, this is just speculation.

Arbane
2015-08-01, 12:24 AM
The Buffy and Dresden Files RPGs actually had this as built-in rules:

In Buffy, White Hats (Good guys with no supernatural powers) got more Hero Points than Slayers, spellcasters, werewolves, etc. Useful for avoiding injury, lucky breaks, boosting rolls, etc.

In Dresden Files, being supernatural cuts into the maximum amount of Fate Points your character can have - a normal human in a high-powered game gets 10, a Harry Dresden-level wizard might get 2 or 3, tops. Fate Points are about as important as dice in that game - you can use them to add to just about any roll. (If getting new powers drops that fate-pool to zero, your character becomes an NPC.)

So, supernaturals are more powerful, normals are luckier.

Silus
2015-08-01, 05:27 AM
Probably not up there in "right" answers, but my experience says go for subterfuge, manipulation and trickery. Out-think them, play on their ego, make them make mistakes.

Like take Star Wars for example where Force users are the wizards. How do you stop/cripple an arrogant Sith? Make him Force TK a "detonator" out of your hand that's really a remote-detonated explosive under the assumption that he just disarmed you of your attempt to space him/bring the roof down/floor out from under/kill him. In actuality, his assumption of the "idiot soldier/smuggler/alien" just cost him a hand, arm, or life.

Lord Raziere
2015-08-01, 05:38 AM
define "mundane" and "wizard" and "fight"

can we consider super-intelligent AI's from The Culture novels mundane? made purely out of tech, no magic involved, could build one of those and have it beat the wizard. so super-intelligent they've designed ways to think faster than lightyears, and probably have nano-tech up the wazoo.

can we consider a super-fanatical order of assassins killing every wizard they can find in their sleep at like level one or two before they can ever achieve something more, a fight?

can we consider someone who can only cast spells to say, water the crops and ensure a bountiful harvest a wizard?

goto124
2015-08-01, 06:23 AM
can we consider someone who can only cast spells to say, water the crops and ensure a bountiful harvest a wizard?

But that's a druid!

BWR
2015-08-01, 07:05 AM
Granted 2e had a lot of no-save spells, but in 2e a 20th level Fighter basically couldn't fail a save. If it had a save, a lvl 20 fighter was going to. On...I think it was vs spell, they just needed to roll higher than a 1. Not a typo. A one.

Sure, the op ceiling for wizards was a lot lower in 2e, but mundanes mostly had it worse in 2e than 3e. There were plenty of 2e options for casters (especially wizards) that would render anything mundanes could do meaningless, nevermind the no-save stuff. Sure, casters got a boost in 3.x but at optimization levels more in line with what the designers intended, mundanes are far better of in 3.e than they were previously.

Sacrieur
2015-08-01, 08:51 AM
UMD with AMF.

goto124
2015-08-01, 08:55 AM
Google tells me that UMD is the The University of Maryland, while AMF is Action Message Format.

Help please? I think Sacrieur meant weapons (or guns), but I can't tell what sort of weapons they are.

Cazero
2015-08-01, 09:04 AM
Use Magic Device to use scrolls and wands without being a spellcaster.
Anti-Magic Field because nope, no magic.

An heavy use of either make spellcaster classes weaker than martials, the first one because martials have abilities that are not made obsolete by a bunch of wands, and the second one because the martials have abilities that are not negated by it.


The real problem with that being that you need a spellcaster to make the magic item in the first place, wich kind of contradict the whole 'fighting spellcasters with non-spellcasters' thing.

Sacrieur
2015-08-01, 09:16 AM
The real problem with that being that you need a spellcaster to make the magic item in the first place, wich kind of contradict the whole 'fighting spellcasters with non-spellcasters' thing.

Or just buy it from someone/pay them to do it/intimidate them into it.

Cazero
2015-08-01, 09:31 AM
Or just buy it from someone/pay them to do it/intimidate them into it.

Wether the spellcaster involved is an active party member or the BBEG you are trying to kill with his own misplaced magic items, there is still a spellcaster needed for the toolkit you are using to fight a spellcaster, and that is the problem I was talking about.

If you need to defeat an epic archwizard and steal his stuff to UMD an AMF against that epic lich, it sort of bring us back to square one. How do you deal with that goddamn archwizard without a spellcaster, and why not using the same thing on the lich?
If your answer is 'diplomacy, and the lich is really mean', you might as well send the archwizard to fight the lich directly because he is on your side. Everything else bring us back to square one, dealing with an hostile spellcaster without spellcasting nor fancy mage-killer items.

awa
2015-08-01, 10:04 AM
What system are you using here? Without that, this is just speculation.

It is just speculation although I am talking about third edition. People ask what you would need for a mundane class to be equal to high op wizards without being "anime" and they come up with a lot of stuff like the warrior being so tough they can shrug off spell or slash through time and space with their sword as the bare minimum kinds of effects which arnt satisfying to me, that character might not technically use magic but there not mundane. Some other system have ways for players to manipulate the story In some way so I thought about if we need the character to be mundane a class that grants access to powers outside the game could do it. The game actually does have luck feats but those are far to limited to even the odds between a rogue and a high op wizard

Morty
2015-08-01, 10:33 AM
Other games in which people can reach levels of power even close to an "optimized" high-level D&D wizard make it very clear they play on a completely different level than everyone else. Most games in which magicians and non-magicians are meant to interact on a more or less similar level actually bother to make sure the level is similar.

Slipperychicken
2015-08-01, 12:20 PM
how do the muggles beat the god wizard?

Try playing something that isn't D&D 3.5? This isn't an issue in most other games.

Mechalich
2015-08-01, 12:28 PM
It is just speculation although I am talking about third edition. People ask what you would need for a mundane class to be equal to high op wizards without being "anime" and they come up with a lot of stuff like the warrior being so tough they can shrug off spell or slash through time and space with their sword as the bare minimum kinds of effects which arnt satisfying to me, that character might not technically use magic but there not mundane. Some other system have ways for players to manipulate the story In some way so I thought about if we need the character to be mundane a class that grants access to powers outside the game could do it. The game actually does have luck feats but those are far to limited to even the odds between a rogue and a high op wizard

A high-optimization wizard simply does not exist within a 'mundane' world. A world structured around the assumption that there are optimized 20th level wizards (and 20th level clerics and druids) who are willing to wield their powers to the fullest extent and alter the world accordingly is not a world that functions accordingly to anything resembling traditional Medieval-variant fantasy assumptions.

The only D&D setting that really engages with the capabilities of high-level spellcasters in any significant way is Planescape, which is supremely far from mundane and still bothers with things like swords mostly as a matter of game mechanics.

In order for martial classes to be able to effectively challenge spellcasters within the context of the 3.X ruleset you have to either A. significantly depower the casters (which is done quite commonly through variants like E6 or limiting class tiers in a game) or B. accept a shounen-type stylization status where fights aren't really combats with a functional tactical element so much as giant willpower-contests where the guy who screams the loudest wins.

Arbane
2015-08-01, 12:41 PM
Try playing something that isn't D&D 3.5? This isn't an issue in most other games.

What the chicken said. This has been gone over hundreds of times since 3.0 came out, and the answer(s) remain the same:

1: The non-spellcasters need access to the sort of physics-straining abilities found in Celtic myth, wuxia movies, and Exalted.
2: The spellcasters need to be beaten with the nerf-bat until they scream for mercy, then beaten some more.

Is D&D 5th edition any better in this regard?

Slipperychicken
2015-08-01, 12:54 PM
Is D&D 5th edition any better in this regard?

Way better. The new concentration mechanics (i.e. you can only have one "needs concentration" spell at a time), along with other assorted nerfs, seem to have casters much more grounded than 3.5. They can't stack very many buffs at once (the good ones take concentration), a lot of effects give the target saves at the end of each round, and so on. They have a few tricks, but no real win-buttons or ways to make themselves invincible.

Lord Raziere
2015-08-01, 02:40 PM
But that's a druid!

not much different mate. they might as well be. can we consider someone who only knows meagre cantrips a wizard?

Rockoe10
2015-08-01, 03:15 PM
When I play in a game with circumstances where a mundane must combat an optimized magic user, I usually presume that it takes much more effort and energy for the magic user to maintain the level of power they are exerting than a mundane firing a bow or swinging an axe.

So the solution, in many cases, is to exhaust the magic user till they can not cast any more spells.

Ralanr
2015-08-01, 03:28 PM
When I play in a game with circumstances where a mundane must combat an optimized magic user, I usually presume that it takes much more effort and energy for the magic user to maintain the level of power they are exerting than a mundane firing a bow or swinging an axe.

So the solution, in many cases, is to exhaust the magic user till they can not cast any more spells.

This is probably one of the best approaches in general.

Arbane
2015-08-01, 04:18 PM
When I play in a game with circumstances where a mundane must combat an optimized magic user, I usually presume that it takes much more effort and energy for the magic user to maintain the level of power they are exerting than a mundane firing a bow or swinging an axe.

So the solution, in many cases, is to exhaust the magic user till they can not cast any more spells.

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Rockoe10
2015-08-01, 04:48 PM
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Some times you go up against a foe that just out matches you in every way.