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View Full Version : Good alignment Lloth and drow variant setting; Thoughts/suggestions/interest?



SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-01, 03:11 AM
Got to talking today with my better half about creative writing assignments I'd had while in school, as a segue from worldbuilding and how D&D gets my creative juices flowing. Things like her abhorrence for fanfic, and my appreciation for good fanfic (I argue that most Star Wars novels are just that), and such. I remember more than a few assignments requiring using the last sentence/paragraph of a short story as a jumping off point for a final chapter of our creation, and used them for argument that fanfic is original, just using the source material as a seed.

One particular assignment that popped to mind was a creation myth story; just a short blurb with something original. Mine was arachnid centric; the lunar phases were explained as an egg sack filling and emptying; stars were dewdrops caught on a web holding the firmament together, things of that nature.

Remembering that story, I got to wondering how hard it would be to incorporate into worldbuilding for a D&D setting. Arachnid deity; maybe a duality between a stern, matronly female and an Anansi clone. Drow are surface dwellers, and pale elves inhabit the Underdark (similar to lack of pigments in cave dwelling species). Drow are still nocturnal, but in the nature of Tolkien's elves, worshiping the moon and stars. Any class is suitable; seeking the tranquility of the night, the dual order/chaos of nature, the music of crickets and night birds; all elements that can be lent to Monks, Druids, Bards.

Spiders are worshiped for their constructive abilities, and the art of an orb-weaver is held higher than that of any city dweller. Retain some drow tropes, but with a twist (matriarchal society; males are chaotic and flighty by nature, females provide the order and structure of the hearth). Have the cave-dwelling pale elves be lost cousins; maybe they retreated there after a calamity and were afraid to return to the surface?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-01, 04:14 AM
First thoughts: I really like these elements in particular:


stars were dewdrops caught on a web holding the firmament together

Drow are still nocturnal, but in the nature of Tolkien's elves, worshiping the moon and stars.

Spiders are worshiped for their constructive abilities

And as for this aspect:


Retain some drow tropes... Have the cave-dwelling pale elves be lost cousins; maybe they retreated there after a calamity and were afraid to return to the surface?


It would be a simple matter to convert wood elves into cave elves - just swap Mask of the Wild for Stone Camouflage, and add the superior darkvision/sunlight sensitivity combo and you're good.
Perhaps eliminate high elves from the setting entirely? Maybe include eladrin, but they all live in enclaves / different planes and are militantly obsessed with civilisation and order (LN default), to the point that they're generally antagonistic towards the drow? After all, a violent schism between the elven racial groups is a time-honoured and narratively-useful trope

Other thoughts:
The chief drow deity seems like a mixture of Lolth and Eilistraee... both are usually depicted as beautiful, semi-naked drow women, though Lolth sometimes appears as a drider and Eilistraee is usually holding a longsword. Maybe the hybrid deity should be a drider with a longsword?
Is there an evil counterpart to Drizzt? To be honest, it's probably not necessary.
What else is going on in the setting?
In the vanilla material, drow are distinguished by having longer maximum lifespans than other elves, and astronomically higher birthrates. They're only kept in check by their fondness for murdering each other. Take away the murder (and give them a fertile surface empire), and there are... implications.

goto124
2015-08-01, 05:59 AM
Have the new drow be pale.

If the players ask, say 'they live underground, why do they need melanin in their skin for? To protect them from sunlight?'

This is more of a joke suggestion, but why not.

Frozen_Feet
2015-08-01, 06:48 AM
Well, as vanilla Drow are pretty much a spoof on arachnid mating habits, you might want to take a look at those for inspiration.

Specifically: some male spiders allow themselves to be eaten after mating so that the female has enough protein to supply their offspring. So you could have majority of the males be very much into self-sacrifice and chivalry towards the females. And this could splash on their attitudes towards other humanoids species as well; drow males could have a reputation as fierce protectors of women everywhere.

As for the minority of males, the chaotic, flighty kind... with some species of spider, the male ties the legs of the female during mating, so it can get a headstart afterwards and not get eaten. So for the "rogue" male elements of Drow society (worshipping the Anansi equivalent), you could play up Casanova and Chivalrous Pervert tropes. Very polite, very chivalrous, very charming.... and very much gone the morning after. Handily explains all those half-elves (or in this case, half-drow).

As for the female part of the population, to prevent issues of massive overpopulation, you could have them be very, very selective of their mates. In contrast to hypersexuality of vanilla Drow, they would be extreme prudes and very much "wait untill marriage" types. This could loop back to the roguish males - the chaotic males are sort of reverse "defectors from decadence", running from the extreme moral and behavioral demands and obligations their society places on them.

The resulting combination from extreme longevity and high bar for marriage and breeding would mean that drow women look after children only for very small portion of their lives. This would free them for other pursuits, such as a higher education, body-building etc.. This could mean your average drow woman is not very feminine by human standards - they are architechts, construction workers, warriors (etc.) first, mothers second. You could downplay or reverse sexual dimorphism for them - unless a drow woman is anticipating to get pregnant in short order (which is very, very rarely), they're indistinquishable from males and have very little body fat compared to human women (not having visible breasts unless nursing, for example), or they are as a general rule, much taller and more muscular than the males.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-01, 07:16 AM
So you could have majority of the males be very much into self-sacrifice and chivalry towards the females
...
unless a drow woman is anticipating to get pregnant in short order ... they are as a general rule, much taller and more muscular than the males.

I like these suggestions, though I want to point out that if the men are running around being chivalrous etc. &co., they'd benefit from being big and muscular as well. Maybe just all of new-drow society places more emphasis on athleticism than other races... such as by having lots of sporting contests and so on.

goto124
2015-08-01, 07:22 AM
Maybe the drow society sees muscle on males as ugly, while females are supposed to be big and muscular :D

Frozen_Feet
2015-08-01, 08:29 AM
Oh, it's possible the males are muscular and strong by human standards as well, with women just being much more so. Kind of reversal of the "elves are thin and frail".

But it's just as possible that the male protective instinct takes a social, rather than physical, bent. It could be that at least when it comes to their own kind, male-on-female violence is something of a foreign concept, or not treated very seriously by drow males - for the simple fact that if a male gets into physical competition with a female ( that's not running away very fast...), the male loses (and is possibly killed and eaten). On the other hand, social and sexual manipulation of females is viewed very dimly, as female sexuality is sacred and a male is not entitled to it without extreme diligence and honesty. So males would be very quick to shame and discredit other males engaging in dishonest flattery, arrogance, seduction or any other "improper" behaviour endangering a female's honor, social, sexual or economic status.

Another possibility is that protectiveness of male drow towards females of other humanoid species is not a form of sexual competition, but a parenting instinct. If drow women are very large and strong compared to other humanoids, it follows females of other species might appear juvenile / child-like to drow males. So unlike fully-grown drow females (who are assumed to be able to defend themselves), human females (etc.) would be seen as "kids" and in need of special protection.

This raises more interesting questions of how the flighty, chaotic males are perceived by their society.

It also raises questions of how drow females would perceive other species. They too might have protective instinct towards smaller humanoids, but also be weirded out by how human females never "grow up". I can imagine a female drow adopting a human female infant and eventually growing very sad and worried that their adopted daughter is unable to keep up with drow physical standards.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-01, 09:17 AM
I can imagine a female drow adopting a human female infant and eventually growing very sad and worried that their adopted daughter is unable to keep up with drow physical standards.

"...I mean, she just stopped growing! I'm so worried!"

"Yeah, that can't be right. You should take her to the vet."

goto124
2015-08-01, 10:13 AM
If you want to make the new drow society out to be Good (does it matter if it's Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral kinda Good?), it's probably best that they not use other sapient races as slaves. Or pets.

'She's no animal! Take her to the cleric!'

Nifft
2015-08-01, 10:16 AM
One particular assignment that popped to mind was a creation myth story; just a short blurb with something original. Mine was arachnid centric; the lunar phases were explained as an egg sack filling and emptying; stars were dewdrops caught on a web holding the firmament together, things of that nature.

Neat.

One thing I did in a previous campaign, which might be of some use to you, was say that Lolth was originally Arachne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne). She was a mortal weaver (elven of course) who challenged the gods, and for her hubris (and their jealousy) she was cursed.

The Drow in this setting weren't necessarily evil, but they were very much against the gods. They summoned demons & devils because "at least demons are honest about stabbing you in the back".

Some familial houses were more demon-tainted than others. Some did the whole extreme BSDM stereotype. Some did other disturbing things. Some were fairly normal.

goto124
2015-08-01, 10:28 AM
As for the birthrate thing, there's always 'really low natural fertility' (surface elves can have this too), and/or 'magical contraception'.


The Drow in this setting weren't necessarily evil, but they were very much against the gods. They summoned demons & devils because "at least demons are honest about stabbing you in the back".

I thought devils were CE and thus not "honest about stabbing you in the back"? Also, isn't that line more of a Lawful/Chaotic thing? :smallconfused:

It's hard to convince players that demon summoners are Good anyway.


She was a mortal weaver (elven of course) who challenged the gods, and for her hubris (and their jealousy) she was cursed.

Sounds like a neat setup for a CG version of Lolth. Can also explains why she (and her followers) have dark skin. Might have to portray the other gods as being evil, or at least derserving a cry of 'why the Nine Hells are you doing that?'.


Some familial houses were more demon-tainted than others. Some did the whole extreme BSDM stereotype. Some did other disturbing things. Some were fairly normal.

Speaking of BDSM, it's possible to include Good BDSM as a thing, depending on your players' views on the subject. How prudish are they?

Again, if we're trying to build a Good society, yet have aspects of Evil ones... it's a bit harder to convince people that the society actually is Good, for starters. Then there's the problem of how it works out in-game to be Good not Evil.

Nifft, your version of Drow is rather nicely built. I'm just pointing out possible ways it could be tweaked to better fit OP's purposes.

Nifft
2015-08-01, 10:53 AM
I thought devils were CE and thus not "honest about stabbing you in the back"? Also, isn't that line more of a Lawful/Chaotic thing? :smallconfused:

It's hard to convince players that demon summoners are Good anyway. 1/ You have devils exactly backwards.
2/ Nobody said they're Good -- what I did was make them rational users of evil by necessity, rather than being inherently evil.

You're confusing explanation with justification.


Sounds like a neat setup for a CG version of Lolth. Can also explains why she (and her followers) have dark skin. Might have to portray the other gods as being evil, or at least derserving a cry of 'why the Nine Hells are you doing that?'. Nah, that's way too simplistic.

The Greek Gods weren't Evil, but neither were they particularly Good.

Painting one side of a disagreement as unilaterally wrong is ... cartoon evil. My world was built around the idea that many different kinds of Good can exist, and they don't always get along.

goto124
2015-08-01, 11:24 AM
Ah. We have different goals then.

How do the 'Good drow' interact with the 'Evil drow', if 'Evil drow' exist at all?

What is the purpose of this drow variant? Is it going to be inserted into any pre-existing setting?

Nifft
2015-08-01, 11:31 AM
Ah. We have different goals then.

My goal is to help the OP, who wants:

Retain some drow tropes, but with a twist

I'm doing this by presenting how I retained some Drow tropes, but with a twist.

My hope is that this will be of some use to the OP.

I'm not sure what your goal is, but if it's not helping the OP, then ... uh ... okay?

Arbane
2015-08-01, 12:46 PM
Sounds like a neat setup for a CG version of Lolth. Can also explains why she (and her followers) have dark skin.

Or you could go with the less-pr96lematic reason real-world people have dark skin - their ancestors lived somewhere with a lot of sunlight.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-01, 02:02 PM
Another thought: this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427834-Giant-Fey-Spider-Cheerful-Arachnids-with-Reach-5e-homebrew-race-3rd-DRAFT-%28peach%29) has to exist in this setting! It's too perfect!

gadren
2015-08-01, 02:52 PM
After Mystra died in the Forgotten Realms, Llolth wanted to seize control of her divine essence and take over the Weave.

Of course, she gets stopped by meddling adventurers, but I always thought it'd be interesting if she'd succeeded.

Every other time in FR that another's god's portfolio gets absorbed, the absorber can't help but take on aspects of the predecessor. So what if Lolth had succeeded, and she lost her evilness in the process, as she became more interested in the Weave than in chaos and destruction? What kind of effect would this have on Drow society?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-01, 03:07 PM
So what if Lolth had succeeded, and she lost her evilness in the process, as she became more interested in the Weave than in chaos and destruction? What kind of effect would this have on Drow society?

Now that is interesting. There's always been some tension between the drow noble houses, who strike me as largely LE, and the cult of Lolth, who is very much CE. So what would happen if Lolth moved towards Mystra (who I have down as NG) on the alignment scale?

The priestesses aren't going to change overnight... you don't get to be a drow priestess unless you buy into the system, and systems tend to be self-sustaining. Perhaps less so if they're chaotic evil systems, but a strong high priestess could hold it together at least for a while. Perhaps in the longer term, there'd be a merging of church & state, given that they're not so adamantly opposed any more? Would the new Lolth muck in an effect a regime change? She does seem like a hands-on goddess to begin with, and I was under the impression that the latest incarnation of Mystra is a recently-ascended mortal, who would presumably still remember what it's like to do things for herself.

Nifft
2015-08-01, 03:17 PM
Every other time in FR that another's god's portfolio gets absorbed, the absorber can't help but take on aspects of the predecessor. So what if Lolth had succeeded, and she lost her evilness in the process, as she became more interested in the Weave than in chaos and destruction? What kind of effect would this have on Drow society?

That's a super cool idea. And obviously, Spiders are things which Weave, so that's her conceptual continuity tie-in.

Thought #1: Arcane magic users are now also favored of Lolth. That means Drow dudes can now rise as high as their (former) overlady matrons. All are equal before the Great Weaver.

Thought #2: What if she still kinda disliked all other Elves? (Elf now has Favored Class: oops.) Perhaps the new batch of Wild Mages are due to Lolth feeling conflicted about Elves and Half-Elves using "her" magic.

Thought #3: The Shadow Weave is going to come under assault. IIRC the previous Weave incarnations were fairly pacifist. Lolth? Not so much. An enemy stands before Her, and there shall be war. Weaver Is Coming!

Thought #4: Maybe the Underdark Weave will get repaired to the degree that teleportation works in & out?

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-01, 06:59 PM
Just....wow. I only had a passing familiarity with FR pantheon and lore. I was just using Lloth as a way of relating a decade old idea to D&D, because it was a something different, and I was curious how hard it would be to work up for a setting. The idea that it could be a new direction for actual lore (Lloth supplanting Mystra) is just incredible. The way everyone has chipped in ideas to take my random musings and mesh them with established material reminds me why I play D&D and frequent this forum.

I had originally come up with the idea as a random creation myth. Now I'm going through everyone's input, and getting all kinds of ideas. Schisms within drow society and religion, maybe a societal collapse? Imagine the power vacuum in the Underdark, as the entire structure of the drow power base upends itself. A House that rejects all trappings of the former society, an becomes more like a Barbarian clan. The possibilities for stories are mindboggling.

I hadn't even considered the relation to the Weave, etc. Too good to pass up.

The main idea I had was males taking longer to mature; hence the flighty behavior. Only a chronologically older male has the relative maturity to be a suitable mate/parent. This, combined with relatively few males living that long, would serve as a population check. But the ideas of sexual dimorphism, of the societal roles, inter-species relations (be interesting to incorporate the change in the cultural xenophobia of traditional drow); mind-blowing.



Thought #1: Arcane magic users are now also favored of Lolth. That means Drow dudes can now rise as high as their (former) overlady matrons. All are equal before the Great Weaver. Heavily reliant on ritual magic, drawing diagrams reminiscent of a spider's web? Something akin to a Grace, from Sword of Truth, or the runes from Death Gate Cycle? May serve as a new magic mechanic/class? Could also tie into the summoning/pacts; maybe an upsurge in drow Binders?

What if Lloth HERSELF had a schism? A theme in lots of fantasy with active deities (Weis' Rose of the Prophet springs immediately to mind) is the creation/strength of a deity relies on quantity of worshipers and their piety. What if the holdovers within the drow faith are strong enough to maintain the original Lloth, but only a shadow of her former power. The newer "Lloth+" is stronger thanks to Mystra's added power, but still finding herself; reflects the drow society being in shambles. Maybe a diaspora of the drow, as the old guard are strongest in the Underdark.

^Could serve as a source for the reduction in xenophobia; the surface drow are trying to find themselves in the new world, and the new societal order. Casanova males are latching onto other societies and races, sine it's easier to adopt a new identity than create your own. Demonstrated all the time in immigrant cultures. Females are much more selective, and somewhat conservative in personality, so there's less outsiders being raised among the drow compared to half drow in surface cities.

All this just from random musings over a 20 year old writing assignment. I had no setting or story set in mind when sharing this; I just like the brainstorming creative process. The idea that it could be incorporated into FR never crossed my mind. With al the ideas being kicked around in this thread, I can easily see a drow-centric campaign or dozen being built being built. So. Many. Story hooks. Political and religious intrigue. Drow refugees flooding a biased surface world, being treated as an invasion by some. Drizzt being thrust into the role of ambassador/leader, helping drow new to the surface find a place. I had no idea my germ of an idea could turn into something so big.

goto124
2015-08-01, 10:10 PM
Do people still want to see Drizzt? :smalltongue:

gadren
2015-08-01, 10:18 PM
Do people still want to see Drizzt? :smalltongue:

The main problem I have with Drizzt is just how much brooding he does. He is very much the stereotype of a 90's hero.

goto124
2015-08-01, 10:22 PM
Make him a Hate Sink, then count the number of seconds it takes for him to get killed brutally :smalltongue:

GungHo
2015-08-03, 09:43 AM
Within FR, I've done this by way of having a culturally isolated section of the Underdark that left Lolth-worship some time ago and replaced it with worship of the elementals. Still afflicted by the curse. Not necessarily good, not necessarily evil. Just people surrounded by elemental spirits who can wreck your day.


The main problem I have with Drizzt is just how much brooding he does. He is very much the stereotype of a 90's hero.
The only thing he doesn't do is walk away from explosions... and that's only because Bob hasn't given him a necklace of missiles.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-03, 12:37 PM
The only thing he doesn't do is walk away from explosions...

It took me literally one minute to find this, which looks suspiciously like an explosion.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/72/3f/2b/723f2bcf7f757114c406fb0e69189ed3.jpg

illyahr
2015-08-04, 04:54 PM
This has become one of my new favorite campaign ideas. I love this place. :smallbiggrin:


It took me literally one minute to find this, which looks suspiciously like an explosion.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/72/3f/2b/723f2bcf7f757114c406fb0e69189ed3.jpg

Whelp, there it is. Drizz't needs to see a doctor and take some prozac. NO. MORE. EMO. HEROS! We are done with the 90's, it needs to stop!

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-04, 09:15 PM
This has become one of my new favorite campaign ideas. I love this place. :smallbiggrin:

My sentiments exactly. I've yet to play a game, though I've had the books since release. All I can do to get my fix is come up with random ideas and stories. Bringing them here is the only way I can get the alteration and expansion that would normally come from play. Writing in an echo chamber is dull.

I threw He-Who-Shall-Not-be-Named-Again in here because I only know two famous drow; him, and a female wizard who moved to the surface and married a human barbarian (can't remember her name, just remember story was interesting).

Back to the topic at hand; I love creativity. Take a recent discussion I had on kobolds. Ideas are polychromatic kobolds are neophyte dragons, changed like 3.5's Dragonborn when they prove themselves; also discussed kobold tribes that are specific colors (incl. metallic) dedicated to their local dragon. All from discussion and comparing influences and ideas.

illyahr
2015-08-05, 09:16 AM
I threw He-Who-Shall-Not-be-Named-Again in here because I only know two famous drow; him, and a female wizard who moved to the surface and married a human barbarian (can't remember her name, just remember story was interesting).

Did she happen to lose a hand so the barbarian made a knife-hand for her? If so, I read those books also. :smallsmile:

Segev
2015-08-05, 09:52 AM
If you want to go with the "men lay down their lives to preserve the women during pregnancy" angle, you could stick with women being the stronger, larger sex, but add that they're capable of multiple births from different fathers. More spider-like or insectile in that sense. The males who gather around their drow matron take up the duties of defense, laying down their lives and substance to support her until she gives birth. Traditionally, each of these men is responsible for one of the children she births, though if one or more of the men dies, survivors take more than one child under their wing. Post-birth, during raising of children, the female is the provider. It's expected that it takes multiple men to do the work of one woman, which is why the women go out to do the work. Because women are the warrior sex, there usually are fewer of them; they die to violence as well as to childbirth. Men are protected as the weaker sex except during their wife's pregnancy, when they are known to take on elements of tropes more akin to "Mama Bear" in protecting her and their unborn children.

Lithe and graceful and beautiful men are valued, but the stereotype of the weak and vulnerable and submissive man is inverted to "do NOT mess with a man's pregnant wife" in the same sense that one does not, in real-world stereotypes, want to mess with a woman's children.

LudicSavant
2015-08-05, 11:51 AM
A snippet from my own pantheon the OP might find helpful:


Lolth, The Hunted
http://pre03.deviantart.net/3095/th/pre/f/2013/007/1/f/lolth_by_agentscarlet-d5qt5do.jpg
Domains: Abyss, Cavern, Chaos, Darkness, Destiny, Destruction, Dream, Drow, Evil, Family, Fate, Knowledge, Luck, Lust, Oracle, Pride, Spider, Trickery
Portfolio: Assassins, ambition, chaos, cunning, darkness, destiny, drow, fate, luck, mothers, post-traumatic growth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_growth), potential, spiders, self-actualization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization), strength
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iApGYxLTpXo

Knowledge (Religion) DC 10:
Lolth is the patron goddess of the Drow. Tales of her treachery are infamous amongst the high elves. Known as the "Queen of Spiders" or "Queen of the Demonweb Pits," she is reviled for her betrayal of Corellon Larethian, perverse cruelty against her own subjects, and disturbing fixation with spiders.

Formerly the wife of Corellon Larethian, Lolth was corrupted by greed and lust. Not satisfied with her divine rank, she conspired to aid Corellon Larethian's enemy Gruumsh, and steal his power. This led to a great war between the elves, at the end of which Lolth's wicked followers were driven underground.

In art, Lolth is typically depicted as a beautiful drow woman, sometimes with the body of a great spider.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 15:
The Drow tell the story of Lolth rather... differently from the rest of the elves. Formerly a minor goddess and the humble lover of Corellon Larethian, Lolth is said to have realized her own beauty, acquired a sense of self worth, and determined that she and her people were destined for greater things. She came to realize that the ways of the gods of higher divine ranks (almost all men in standard D&D cosmology, and Corellon and Moradin are alone at the highest divine rank, meaning Lolth was basically Hera) were short-sighted, corrupt, and stifling, causing history's problems to endlessly repeat themselves in a cruel drama. Refusing to play second fiddle to Corellon Larethian, whose ways would forever hold the elves back, she left him and instead fell in love with Gruumsh, whose sense of honor she respected. With her guile and wisdom, she managed to secure a greater portfolio for herself.

For this transgression, Corellon Larethian cursed all of her followers, forcing them to flee underground as the other elves turned against them. Ever since, Lolth has sworn vengeance against Corellon Larethian, and promised to restore the drow to their rightful place in the world.

According to her followers, Lolth's philosophy is one of the virtues of ambition, strength, individuality, self-actualization, and realizing your full potential.

The veneration of spiders is based on Lolth's parables. She would often point to the nature of spiders as demonstrations of moral principles, particularly regarding femininity and motherhood. Perhaps the most famous example is the parable of the brood, wherein the new-born spider broods tear each other apart to survive, such that the next generation will be stronger than the last. Another is the parable of the mother, which points to the nature of female spiders to illustrate the strengths of women when we cast off our presumptions.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 20:
Lolth presents a rather novel set of moral principles. She rejects patriarchy, monarchy, chivalry, and other such principles in favor of other notions of honor and virtue. A few examples are as follows:

To a follower of Lolth, there is no concept of "fighting fair." Such notions are invented by the weak-minded to corrupt the cunning. Chivalry states that men may not gang up because nobles are individually better armed, trained, and educated, while peasants are numerous. Chivalry states that poison and assassination is vile, because it deals with the individual who transgresses rather than making war on their minions while they hide within their castles. Chivalry states that fire and swords are honorable, because castles do not burn like cottages, and steel does not slice like linen.

A follower of Lolth would also say that the idea of the strong protecting the weak is a flawed idea, akin to the proverb of the fisherman. To give a man a fish is to feed a man for a day, but to teach a man to fish is to give him the strength to feed a family for a lifetime. To spare the rod is to spoil the child, denying them the strength of discipline. Competence is borne of struggle, and the most saintly character is as worthless as a lifeless stone if it lacks the power to impose itself on the world and thereby better it. Lolth's philosophy speaks volumes about self-realization and self-actualization, and of creating a stronger individual through ambition and trial.

The notion that the weak should not be protected has some limits or exceptions... the duties of an adult is different from the duties of a child, and the sacred duties of a mother are to make their children strong. Also, some trials are so mismatched that they will grant no strength, only destruction.

To a follower of Lolth, strength means more than simply muscle. It means strength of will, strength of character, and strength of mind, as well as pursuing grand dreams and ambitions. Cleverness and guile are respected even more than strength of arm. They often claim that in these respects, women are truly the stronger gender amongst the elves.

One major effect of Lolth's unique philosophy is that drow society seems to be the largest community able to survive with no true central government or monarchy of any kind, though some scholars would note that their society is dwarfed by those of the greater races, considering the drow little more than a loose confederation of tribes (or "houses" as the drow call them).

Lolth is sometimes known as Arachne, Araushnee, or Megwandir in ancient sources. Her connection with spiders goes back to her original role as Corellon's wife and the Weaver of Fate, in which she weaved destiny like a spiderweb. Indeed, it is said that the reason Lolth encourages her followers to cultivate strength is because of the way fate works. She desires to craft the greatest of destinies for her children, but one must be strong enough to seize a grand destiny intended for them.

Drow are not the only worshippers of Lolth, and her philosophy has found traction with many cults, such as that of the human cleric Lareth the Beautiful.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 25:
In ancient times, Lolth was known as the Weaver of Destiny, a patron goddess of luck, fate, and motherhood. Her role was to weave the threads of fate for the elves, to ensure they lived up to their destinies, as well as to protect mothers and promote childbirth.

It was Lolth who urged the lords of the gods to appoint Wee Jas as psychopomp in the Age of Winter, despite Corellon's skepticism that she could fill such a crucial role.

It is said that Lolth was not satisfied with the petty fates she was able to craft, with roadblocks put in her way at every turn, and that this desire to craft a greater destiny for her children (essentially, what she saw as being allowed to do her job properly) was the first seed of her resentment for Corellon Larethian.

It is also sometimes speculated that the reproductive problems of the elves began because of Lolth's schism from Corellon, and that the high infant mortality rate of the elves results from her absence... or perhaps her vengeful curse.

Some give thanks to Lolth when they accomplish great deeds, paying homage to her as the weaver of their grand fate. Some high level adventurers claim that they have received omens from Lolth, telling them of how they may seize their destinies.

There is much speculation of Lolth's role in divine events, as it is uncertain how much influence she currently wields in the pantheon, and her influence as the weaver of fate (now shrouded by her portfolio of darkness and assassins) is nothing if not subtle. Many believe that she is plotting something big... while skeptics say that she is merely hiding from the forces that hunt her.

Knowledge (Religion) DC 30:
A fragment of the apocryphal Leaf Stone claims that Lolth was a goddess of minor stature in early times, one of many lesser deities with small portfolios working under the greater deities such as Corellon Larethian. According to it, dissatisfaction with her role began even earlier than her relationship with Corellon, and indeed it was her dissatisfaction that drove her to seduce him in the first place. Desperate to secure the desiny she longed for for her children, she hoped to steal some of Corellon Larethian's vast divine power. She used her inside position to aid Gruumsh, supporting his ill-fated revolution in which he lost his eye... and indeed making such a fight possible in the first place against the two highest ranked deities. In some ways, Gruumsh holds his failure against Lolth, and their relationship is at best inconsistent and dysfunctional.

Recovered writings of the scholar Esegrius claim that Lolth was actually responsible in part for Joramy and Vecna's ascension to godhood. Why she would do this is unclear.

illyahr
2015-08-05, 11:57 AM
Looks really good except for one minor nitpick: deities normally can't have that many domains. You would need to spend your entire stock of Divine Salient Abilities to pick up half that number. I would limit it to 4 or 5 of her more important ones. I would recommend Chaos, Destiny, Drow, Spider, and Trickery but that's up to you on how you want it fluffed.

LudicSavant
2015-08-05, 12:11 PM
Looks really good except for one minor nitpick: deities normally can't have that many domains. You would need to spend your entire stock of Divine Salient Abilities to pick up half that number. I would limit it to 4 or 5 of her more important ones. I would recommend Chaos, Destiny, Drow, Spider, and Trickery but that's up to you on how you want it fluffed.

I personally don't care for the Deities and Demigods rules (which are 3.0 and setting-specific anyways), and apparently neither does WotC, actually. Canon Lolth has at least 14 domains that I'm aware of (Chaos, Darkness, Demonic, Destruction, Drow, Envy, Evil, Lust, Oracle, Pestilence, Pride, Spider, Trickery, Wrath).

illyahr
2015-08-05, 01:15 PM
I personally don't care for the Deities and Demigods rules, and apparently neither does WotC, actually. Canon Lolth has at least 14 domains that I'm aware of (Chaos, Darkness, Demonic, Destruction, Drow, Envy, Evil, Lust, Oracle, Pestilence, Pride, Spider, Trickery, Wrath).

WotC is not a good judge when it comes to their own rules, as Deities and Demigods shows. What we can go off of is the Core books and some of the other supplementary material. Some deities get a little more screen time in later books so they feel the need to keep padding their domain lists. If you look at the PHB or any of the campaign setting books (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc.) deities rarely have more than 4 or 5. That includes Greater Deities like Corellon.

gadren
2015-08-05, 02:16 PM
WotC is not a good judge when it comes to their own rules, as Deities and Demigods shows. What we can go off of is the Core books and some of the other supplementary material. Some deities get a little more screen time in later books so they feel the need to keep padding their domain lists. If you look at the PHB or any of the campaign setting books (Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc.) deities rarely have more than 4 or 5. That includes Greater Deities like Corellon.

I don't really see why it matters how many domains a deity has, just be aware that deities with more domains will have more PC worshippers, so keep that in mind if you want diversity.

I mean in Eberron games most people just worship an entire pantheon, giving clerics access to most domains for the setting anyway. I've known many DMs to allow worshipping a pantheon in other games, too.

illyahr
2015-08-05, 02:25 PM
I don't really see why it matters how many domains a deity has, just be aware that deities with more domains will have more PC worshippers, so keep that in mind if you want diversity.

I mean in Eberron games most people just worship an entire pantheon, giving clerics access to most domains for the setting anyway. I've known many DMs to allow worshipping a pantheon in other games, too.

That's the issue I was trying to get at. If you have most deities with 5 domains and one has 15, why would a cleric worship any of the others? Especially an evil cleric who will worship the deity that grants the most power? You would end up having to raise the number of domains for all deities proportionial to their status, and that's a load of work. To avoid crossing domains, which deities guard jealously, you would eventually have to start making some of your own. That's even more work.

LudicSavant
2015-08-05, 02:40 PM
That's the issue I was trying to get at. If you have most deities with 5 domains and one has 15, why would a cleric worship any of the others? Especially an evil cleric who will worship the deity that grants the most power?

Why are you assuming most deities have only 5 domains in my pantheon? No deity has so few. Lolth doesn't even have an unusually high number (Moradin and Corellon have the most). :smallconfused:

You seem to think 15 is a lot, but there are over 100 domains in 3.5e. There are only 22 in core. If you have 5 domains *in core* you're taking up ~23% of the available options. If you've got 20 domains in 3.5 with access to supplements, you're taking up less than 20% of the available options.

Segev
2015-08-05, 04:00 PM
If Deity A has 15 domains, and Deity B has 5, but you want Domain X for your cleric, and X is one of Deity B's 5 domains but not one of Deity A's 15, you'll have your cleric worship Deity B.

Clerics only get 2 domains; their god offering 3 more or 13 more doesn't really make much difference to them, personally.

illyahr
2015-08-05, 04:07 PM
I have no idea why you are assuming most deities have only 5 domains in my pantheon. No deity has so few. Lolth doesn't even have an unusually high number (Moradin and Corellon have the most).

You seem to think 15 is a lot, but there are over 100 domains in 3.5e. There are only 22 in core. If you have 5 domains *in core* you're taking up ~23% of the available options. If you've got 20 domains in 3.5 with access to supplements, you're taking up less than 20% of the available options.

The numbers skew a little from alignment domains but I see what you're getting at. The problem is that I don't have access to all the splat-books. The only things I can base it on is core. Not only that, but you have to remember that there are more deities to go along with those extra domains that they keep adding.

If every deity for every pantheon has 15-20 domains, then that's all well and good. Go ahead and run your campaigns that way if that works for you and more power to you. My players don't have access to all of the extra stuff and are fairly new to tabletop so I have to keep things simplified.

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-05, 07:39 PM
A snippet from my own pantheon the OP might find helpful....

I like it. Doesn't exactly match my concept of a fae, Tolkien-esque dark elf society, but wouldn't take much toying to get it closer. Take that write-up, make her society a little more nature/artistic/fae, and it'd be pretty close to the original concept.

Reading it reminds of something touched on in one of the Star Wars EU books; Sith aren't "Evil". Sith vs Jedi is about personal strength vs needs of the many. One can be a Sith and still be good, at least at first. The problem isn't with the philosophical stance of individual strength; the problem is that few who seek individual power can do so without becoming tyrannical. Ex.: Darth Caedeus. In fact, reading the deity description reminds me much of the story of Jacen's fall; wanting to rule for the galaxy's own good, etc. One of my favorite principles when discussing good/evil paradigm is the point that the only true evil is an extreme. Personal strength is a value, until the extreme form (tyranny) becomes the standard. Kindness/humility is a value, until it becomes extreme (weak-willed, a lack of Self). In this context, the Drow can be considered Good, as they embrace struggle to test and build their strength; they are a society of cohabitating individuals, instead of a mob that sacrifices individuality. A debatable example would be Leto II, the God Emperor. His strength led to tyranny (or self-sacrifice), but for the sake of humanity (in his view). Fun tangent to be saved for another discussion.

@illyahr: I don't remember her losing a hand, but I do remember her spider shuriken with Vorpal; enchanted to chew/slice their way through a struck target. Never had a DM approve that kind of weapon though; something about shuriken that remove limbs didn't sit well. I also imagined it as a weapon that would work it's way towards a target's vitals, doing CON damage on the way.

All of this was just creative musings, but you fine folks and your contributions make me really want to flesh this into a functional setting.

Edit: Musing on previous material, I had a few "what if?" thoughts.

Lloth as a God-Empress; A drider similar to Leto II in sandworm form.

Her split with Corellon was due to his attitude that winning her interest meant he'd won HER. No longer independently respected; she became known as his consort, instead of a power in her own right. His elves' art is all the same; stagnant. Their society is more communal/populist.

God-Empress idea; maybe what would have been had Galadriel accepted the One Ring?

Drow society:

Females attempt to build fiefdoms of their own, males are nomadic. Individual strength is respected among both; young males initially focus purely on the physical, and females grow within a society that focuses on the mental (complex webs, etc). Only those few males who manage to become leaders/generals, instead of foot soldiers, are worthy of being mates. Have to prove innovative, nimble minds, capable of awareness of the entire battlefield. That is just enough to be allowed among court; they must survive court intrigue as well to be valuable. Capability with art is expected as well; music (isn't there a species of spider where males pluck the female's web to soothe her, and not be considered prey?) dance (courtship dances) and visual art (thinking something like bower birds; isn't there an arachnid or insectoid analog?). Demonstrates imagination and individuality.

Anansi analog:

A male Llloth can respect, but he doesn't try to own her or make her change. He is clever, and plucky (would have to be to dare court her) but is still a free spirit, and respects her as so as well. Male drow tend to emulate him; gaining female attention, but not trying to rule alongside the matriarchs. In fact, they tend to avoid being tied down with the responsibility. Maybe Anansi's relationship with her is similar to Shmendrick the Magician's relationship with King Haggard; doesn't advise, but only survives as long as he's amusing. Treat survival at court as Dresden's appointment within the Winter Fae. Lloth/Galadriel/Mab?


PPS:

In one comment, I related LOTR, Dune, Star Wars, The Last Unicorn, American Gods, and the Dresden Files, then applied them to Forgotten Realms. I need to get out more.

Irennan
2015-08-07, 09:22 AM
Maybe a diaspora of the drow, as the old guard are strongest in the Underdark.

^Could serve as a source for the reduction in xenophobia; the surface drow are trying to find themselves in the new world, and the new societal order. Casanova males are latching onto other societies and races, sine it's easier to adopt a new identity than create your own. Demonstrated all the time in immigrant cultures. Females are much more selective, and somewhat conservative in personality, so there's less outsiders being raised among the drow compared to half drow in surface cities.

All this just from random musings over a 20 year old writing assignment. I had no setting or story set in mind when sharing this; I just like the brainstorming creative process. The idea that it could be incorporated into FR never crossed my mind. With al the ideas being kicked around in this thread, I can easily see a drow-centric campaign or dozen being built being built. So. Many. Story hooks. Political and religious intrigue. Drow refugees flooding a biased surface world, being treated as an invasion by some. Drizzt being thrust into the role of ambassador/leader, helping drow new to the surface find a place. I had no idea my germ of an idea could turn into something so big.

If you are interested, this kind of exodus is what Lolth's daugher, Eilistraee (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee), works to achieve. If her ideas started to spread, the consequences would be similar to what you describe, with drow refugees trying to forge their path in a hostile surface world, becoming an actual people, with drastic changes among the old guard society, as the new ideas would surely have repercussion even on diehard Lolth's followers.

It's a shame that WotC decided to downplay Eilistraee and this aspect of the drow so much. She is back now, in 5e, via a brief passage in a novel by Ed Greenwood, but Idk how much they are interested in playing the matter out.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-07, 09:42 AM
It's a shame that WotC decided to downplay Eilistraee and this aspect of the drow so much. She is back now, in 5e, via a brief passage in a novel by Ed Greenwood, but Idk how much they are interested in playing the matter out.

Maybe we should start up a letter-writing campaign...


Equality for good-aligned drow!
VOTE EILISTRAEE
For President

Irennan
2015-08-07, 09:47 AM
Maybe we should start up a letter-writing campaign...


Equality for good-aligned drow!
VOTE EILISTRAEE
For President

Well said, well said :smalltongue:

The interesting part is that in his novel Ed says that Eilistraee is one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave. Given Lolth's being at odds with her daughter, perhaps the return of Eilistraee&Mystra and Lolth's attempt to take on the Weave are somehow linked.

Nifft
2015-08-07, 12:22 PM
Equality for good-aligned drow!
VOTE EILISTRAEE
For President


The Drow shall reign supreme!
VOTE LOLTH
Vote Early and Often

(This is why Evil keeps winning elections.)

Irennan
2015-08-07, 12:30 PM
Meh, Eilistraee has free food, music, dance, kindness and joy. Also, her prayers take the form of a dance in the nude. Sorry, Lolth cannot compete with this :smallwink:

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-07, 12:30 PM
The Drow shall reign supreme!
VOTE LOLTH
Vote Early and Often

(This is why Evil keeps winning elections.)

Gotta admit, she's got the edge in name recognition. But we're getting off topic.

If NeoLolth were less chaotic and less evil, she might be able to work with Eilistraee. Or maybe they'd clash in less epic ways. I imagine Lolth would raise more taxes...

Irennan
2015-08-07, 02:00 PM
Gotta admit, she's got the edge in name recognition. But we're getting off topic.

If NeoLolth were less chaotic and less evil, she might be able to work with Eilistraee. Or maybe they'd clash in less epic ways.

This is speculation, but IMHO Eilistraee would see and understand the reasons why Araushnee (Lolth's name before her banishment) tried to rebel to Corellon: she was a goddess of fate and yet she was treated with condescendance by Corellon, she was not really in charge of her destiny and in a sort of subservient position to the elven lord. Eilistraee, who wants the drow to forge their own path, and is doing that herself, would surely feel her mother. The Dark Maiden would hate what Lolth did to the drow (even more so because the latter was imposing them the same chains that led her to rebel, depriving them of the freedom to choose their life), she would fight to free the drow from such cruelty, but would also work to try and find a way to change Lolth.

On the other hand (and this is canon), many elves aren't really receptive to Eilistraee's ideas. Many of them refuse to even believe her existence, because of their pride, as that would clash with their beliefs concerning the evil of the drow being the cause of the Crown Wars and all the bad stuff that happened to their people. So, save for rare cases, despite their effort to bridge the rift between their two people, Eilistraeens aren't really welcome by the elves: they are hunted, are portrayed as the vanguard of Lolth or some other nonsense, while the Church of Corellon does absolutely nothing about this (the situation is not really black and white, and this is what's good about it, or about the FR --as envisioned by Ed Greenwood, at least--)
So, given that Eilistraee has a pretty wild side to her personality and is prone to act wildly when her followers are harmed, I can picture her getting tired of offering her helping hand or even love, and receiving indifference or outright hostility for that. That would also be reflected by her relationship with the Seldarine being described as difficult and strained in canon.


IMC Eilistraee taking distance from Corellon and secretly working with a (changed, see below) Lolth and her brother Vhaeraun (who is CN, not evil, and not Eilistraee's enemy) is more or less what happened.

Eilistraee has in fact chosen to disregard Corellon and work with Vhaeraun to create a drow nation, a safe haven on the surface, near the elven land of Cormanthor, where the ancient dark elven kingdom of Miyeritar was (now a forsaken land, drained of all its life by a spell cast by elven high mages, that also brought to the destruction of the kingdom), devicing a ritual to make life there possible once again. They have also set in motion a series of actions aimed to open lolthite drow's minds to another kind of life and to lead them to abandon Lolth and retake their place on the surface. They infiltrated agents (like the secret moondancers) in the various drow cities, silently spreading their ideas, especially among the ''free'' drow, (i.e. the abused low class), guiding those who were tired of Lolth's rule away from those hellholes and towards a better existence.

When the Silence of Lolth happened, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun used this opportunity to start an actual rebellion among the drow and bring as many as they could to the surface. Vhaeraun's followers went the route of terror tactics, with attacks and assassinations carried out even against high ranking members of houses/temple, to show that Lolth's power is far from what she wants drow to believe.

Eilistraeens would still fight with the Vhaerunites, but they would mainly focus on providing the population with needed cures, food, water in time of crisis brought by the chaos of Lolth's absence. They would make themselves protectors of their people and would more openly offer the chance of getting away from this (and an actual, concrete alternative to embrace, since they have refuges to welcome them, safe ways to bring them away and a goddess who cares about them).

However Lolth had her own plans for this.
IMC her silence was motivated by two reasons (rather than just ''hey, I'm moving from the Abyss''). The reason relevant to this thread is that she had realized that the drow were basically self-destructing. While most of them were completely submitted to her, the potential of her people was wasted by what at the end of the day was a cookie-cutter evil dogma (love is weakness, happiness is weakness and other edgy stuff). They were killing each other instead of putting their efforts into conquering back their place in the world. She understood that this had to change, but the change would be decided by the choice of the drow. So Lolth decided to remove herself from their society for a time, to let them reshape their life and then come back, mirroring this change on herself and being the goddess that the drow needed. She knew that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would try and use the opportunity to open the drow minds, but that wasn't a problem for her. After the upheaval caused by her absence, after many drow fled from all the infighting, choosing to turn to Eilistraee's loving embrace or to Vhaeraun's promises of restoring the ancient dark elven golden age, Lolth would re-emerge, with her dogma changed to reflect the drow's choice.

Her ideas about the survival of the fittest would be turned into ideas about freedom of self-realization and of forging one's own path. She would introduce a sort of meritocracy, giving space to the more capable, extended to all areas (including art, ''science'', magic, not only power grabbing and killing each other to come on top). She would no longer insist about love being weak or that kind of stuff, instead would encourage the drow to concentrate their effort on their enemies, those who were the cause of their banishment (she would be less evil and more neutral, but without dropping her vendetta against Corellon).

Lolth would then go her two children and try to get them to work with her, as in order to take back their rightful place, the drow had to stop fighting each other. She knew that they wouldn't trust her, even as she explained her change, but she also knew that such a change would be happily welcomed by Eilistraee, that her daughter would take the opportunity and try to definitely change her, and that both twins wouldn't dismiss her, as putting a halt to all the bloodshed and infighting was one of their goals. So all 3 and their followers would start to work and build this restored version of Miyeritar.

GungHo
2015-08-10, 11:23 AM
If Deity A has 15 domains, and Deity B has 5, but you want Domain X for your cleric, and X is one of Deity B's 5 domains but not one of Deity A's 15, you'll have your cleric worship Deity B.

Clerics only get 2 domains; their god offering 3 more or 13 more doesn't really make much difference to them, personally.

It also depends on whether or not anyone has monopoly on domains/portfolios. If gods don't have/need monopoly, give them plenty of domains... whatever makes sense. There's no reason Lolth shouldn't have things like magic, earth, fire, death, war, chaos, illusion, etc. It fits her personality. However, if there's reason for a specific portfolio/domain (e.g. "spider magic") to be held proprietary, then things can be narrowed, and having subjects try to capture certain valuable domains and portfolios as though someone's playing cosmic chess can be entertaining.

NRSASD
2015-08-10, 01:35 PM
@SouthPawSoldier: I believe you're referring to Liriel from Elaine Cunningham's Starlight and Shadows series. She married a berserker from Rashemen and had that throwing/chewing spider thing.


Mine was arachnid centric; the lunar phases were explained as an egg sack filling and emptying;
One little tiny question: Where do the baby moon spiders go?!?!

I've been enjoying watching this thread, but haven't really had anything to contribute so far. My only suggestion is that perhaps there is a severe gender imbalance in terms of births (75% are male) to explain why the population hasn't exploded in size and why males are the expendable gender.

Nifft
2015-08-10, 05:00 PM
One little tiny question: Where do the baby moon spiders go?!?!


Huh.

I've never read that, but I had a one-shot campaign setting in which there was a legend that ettercaps and aranea spun webs of moonbeams and slid down them, appearing in forests at a certain time of the month.

(It was a setting where Fey were the big-bads that everyone hated, very man-against-nature. Elves were basically the Tieflings of that setting: a "redeemed" humanized fey group, not entirely trusted by regular folks.)

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-10, 05:59 PM
Huh.

I've never read that, but I had a one-shot campaign setting in which there was a legend that ettercaps and aranea spun webs of moonbeams and slid down them, appearing in forests at a certain time of the month.

Oooh, I like this. I hadn't really considered how to bring the baby space spiders down to terra firma. Toyed with the idea that shooting stars were the spiders "ballooning" via solar wind to other worlds, but this ties the idea into the host world.

Nifft
2015-08-10, 06:45 PM
Oooh, I like this. I hadn't really considered how to bring the baby space spiders down to terra firma. Toyed with the idea that shooting stars were the spiders "ballooning" via solar wind to other worlds, but this ties the idea into the host world.

If Lolth is good, and spiders are socially acceptable, then maybe either swap the morality of Ettercaps or Aranea, or replace them with "wholesome" spider-monster Fey.

... in this setting, maybe nymphs and dryads are the evil Fey.

Durkon was right about the trees.

Weirdlet
2015-08-11, 12:18 PM
One little tiny question: Where do the baby moon spiders go?!?!


They're the stars! Constantly going forth and spinning their webs to help keep the universe whole, catching rogue planets and comets and other creeping nasties that would bother the world from outside. Be diligent like the stars, my children, for always there will be trouble that tries to slip past an untended web with holes in it.

illyahr
2015-08-12, 04:06 PM
They're the stars! Constantly going forth and spinning their webs to help keep the universe whole, catching rogue planets and comets and other creeping nasties that would bother the world from outside. Be diligent like the stars, my children, for always there will be trouble that tries to slip past an untended web with holes in it.

Or they hold back the Eldritch Abominations from Beyond the Stars.

But I like your answer, too. :smalltongue:

hiryuu
2015-08-16, 02:34 PM
I have always thought Lolth just got some bad PR. I mean, her core story is about a woman who realizes her own sense of self-worth, understands that she's beautiful and can have any man she wants, noticed the system was weighted to the winners and blatantly lethal to the underdog, hooked up with a more honorable man, and and tried to equalize the power between the sides.

What did she get for it? Stories that just declare her "evil" for no reason and a clearly evil god getting to decide what "evil" and "good" are (Corellon). Everyone she cared about being cursed or banished, and then some ridiculously over the top stories about their reactions.

Though, warning. It's D&D, I'm of an opinion that things are "objective" only in so far as there's a divine mafia of sorts deciding what evil means and it's always, essentially, "un-fabulous."

Anyhow.

My home RP setting has the Spider family as one of those most important magician families in its usual setting location. Spider but up the web of the void and hung the stars in it. Planets and other stellar bodies that move are Spider and her husband Sun's children (except the moon, it's a hand mirror that Sun got her for a wedding present). Spider is also, and this is very important, a trickster deity who often makes a lot of mistakes - she is an example of of what not to do.

This is true for much of Native American mythology: Coyote gets the big press off the rez but the real trickster is Spider - most stories that even have Coyote in them have him as second fiddle to Spiders - it's just that while Coyote has a tendency to "succeed," Spider stories tell us how not to go about doing things.

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-16, 04:29 PM
My home RP setting...

I like this. How much of this
Spider is also, and this is very important, a trickster deity who often makes a lot of mistakes - she is an example of of what not to do. is influenced by Anansi? I always felt there was a lot in common between Anansi and Coyote. I love how unrelated cultures come up with similar concepts in fiction and food.

LudicSavant
2015-08-16, 04:49 PM
a clearly evil god getting to decide what "evil" and "good" are (Corellon).

Agreed that Corellon seems to be pretty damn evil in much of the canon. We're talking about a deity that has a holiday celebrated by initiating ethnic cleansings. And it's not just his enemies he treats horribly, as established by stuff like what he did to Leraje in the Tome of Magic, which makes Darth Vader strangling his minions look like nice and reasonable boss behavior by comparison. :smalleek:

hiryuu
2015-08-16, 05:29 PM
I like this. How much of this is influenced by Anansi? I always felt there was a lot in common between Anansi and Coyote. I love how unrelated cultures come up with similar concepts in fiction and food.

Not as much as you'd think. My main sources were these characters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iktomi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Grandmother

Coyote gets all the press, but we wasn't as important as you think - he was literally Spider's sidekick.

Bupp
2015-08-25, 05:25 PM
I'm currently world building and found this here researching ideas for my own non-evil dark elves in my world of Eska. Some of the ideas here will make their way into my lore.


Agreed that Corellon seems to be pretty damn evil in much of the canon. We're talking about a deity that has a holiday celebrated by initiating ethnic cleansings. And it's not just his enemies he treats horribly, as established by stuff like what he did to Leraje in the Tome of Magic, which makes Darth Vader strangling his minions look like nice and reasonable boss behavior by comparison. :smalleek:

This idea that Corellon is a **** is much of the fuel behind the elven Kinslayer Wars in Eska.

http://5egrognard.blogspot.com/2015/08/eskas-kinslayer-wars.html

Honest Tiefling
2015-08-25, 06:58 PM
Question, how good aligned is this society? Because I have a hard time imagining a matriarchal society becoming more then neutral with good leanings, anymore then any other society where one segment rules over the others. I'd also strongly urge you to go over this with any potential players, because presenting an anything-dominated society as good aligned might not rub everyone the right way.

There is also the question of how much is the man's role forced upon them, expected and assumed as to it being as accurate as it is anywhere else. Men in such a society don't have to act a certain way in order for everyone to say and think they do after all.

Also, lady spiders are big to have more children. So perhaps the lady drow are more voluptuous then svelte? Then again, I won't lie and say that I do think elves would be a lot more attractive with a lot more meat on their bones.

...And how can Coyote be Anansi's sidekick if they are from two different continents? Did I miss something here?

goto124
2015-08-25, 08:41 PM
'Also, lady spiders are big to have more children. So perhaps the lady drow are more voluptuous then svelte? Then again, I won't lie and say that I do think elves would be a lot more attractive with a lot more meat on their bones.'

Elves are supposed to be skinny, they're elves! :smalltongue:

Not that I don't like your idea. Putting some thought into the body shape of a race, instead of slapping on the 'standard skinny pretty girl', is a good thing to do.

SouthpawSoldier
2015-08-25, 10:01 PM
I'm currently world building and found this here researching ideas for my own non-evil dark elves in my world of Eska. Some of the ideas here will make their way into my lore.

I can think of no greater compliment than for my ideas, or those born from my thread, being found suitable for someone's setting. Do share the specifics, and how you'll tweak them to fit.

LudicSavant
2015-08-26, 04:13 AM
I like it. Doesn't exactly match my concept of a fae, Tolkien-esque dark elf society, but wouldn't take much toying to get it closer. Take that write-up, make her society a little more nature/artistic/fae, and it'd be pretty close to the original concept.

I wasn't really going for Tolkien-esque, but nonetheless I'm curious. How would you make it more "nature/artistic/fae"?


...And how can Coyote be Anansi's sidekick if they are from two different continents? Did I miss something here?

Hiryuu didn't say that Coyote was Anansi's sidekick.


Not as much as you'd think. My main sources were these characters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iktomi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_Grandmother

Coyote gets all the press, but we wasn't as important as you think - he was literally Spider's sidekick.

Bupp
2015-08-26, 07:48 PM
Here's what I came up for so far. More stuff on Eska can be found on my blog.

I wanted to finish of the three elven races of Eska, but struggled a bit with my non evil dark elves. I was stuck on them, and then one morning in my half-sleep/half awake came up with about half of what is written. I'm still not 100% happy with this version. I feel it's still...missing something. I want to play on the tropes of the dark elves, but different, and not in the Eberron way.

On Eska, there are only 10 main humanoid races. Gray, wood and dark elves, rock gnomes, surface dwarves, goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls humans and lizardfolk. None of them are going to be evil. Sure, they have their differences and fight each other, but not evil. There are enough monstrosities, abominations, and fiends roaming the land to fill the evil niche.

I also like each race having a distinctive slightly magical weapon unique to them. The gray elves and their charge blades, and the wood elves lightning arrows. The gnomes have the warforged as their "weapon". The hobgoblins will have their shocklances, and humans will have cannons. I haven't decided on what the other races will get yet. I'm keeping the power level low, either causing a different damage type, or functioning like a cantrip. The mori'edhel get the spider wands, which function like the thorn whip cantrip.

Dark Elves of Eska (Mori’edhel)

The dark elves served as the military arm of the elven empire. Before the wars they were called the ohta’edhel, or “war elves”. They specialized in nighttime fighting, riding giant lizards. Since being driven underground they have been called mori’edhel, or dark elves. They also use their liante’temol to great effect, using the webs to grapple and move their opponents.


When things started to go bad for them in the Kinslayer Wars, they were cornered and the only way left for them to go was down, and the dwarven halls of Drukat Khaz fell to their onslaught. They drove all of the dwarves out to the surface (though some say a few dwarven clans were driven deep into the Kulaz Dharkhangron). Now the dwarven mines and feasthalls have become the strongholds for the mori’edhel. The mori’edhel adorn themselves with dwarven gems and gold, and arm themselves with dwarven steel. Their goblin servants continue to work the dwarven mines, though production has dropped considerably.

Like many other races of Eska, where they live has a direct influence on their appearance. Out of sight of the sun the majority mori’edhel have taken on a dark, nearly black skin tone, with pale white or silvery hair. A few, the iska’edhel (pale elves), have become albino, and greatly resemble grey elves with red eyes. While the mori’edhel revel and enjoy their newfound home, the iska’edhel long for the return to the surface world, and have become forlorn and despondent.

The worship of Araushnee, the Weaver of Fate has also led them to using spiders and their kin not only in their iconography, but as warbeasts and companions as well.

While they have fought, and many times still fight the gray and wood elves, the still wish to reunite with their brethren. They hold no enmity with the dwarves, but have no desire to give up their new found home, so still fight them when attacked. Like most other races, they are happy to see the gnomes, who bring reliable trade, but dislike the warforged because they see them as unnatural. They also use goblins as servants, but they are generally looked down upon, though some household goblins are treated like family.

The hobgoblins were ferocious foes during the Kinslayer Wars. They are hated by the mori’edhel for all the deaths they caused, but still hold a certain respect for their foe. They think that the huan’apanonar are “cute dogs” in a condescending way. Humans have proven to be both friends and foes both before and during the Wars. They respect their prowess in battle, and still employ them as mercenaries. The mori’edhel think that the lizardfolk are brutish.

The mori’edhel use the same stats as the drow elf in the Player’s Handbook.


Liante’temol “spider wands”
Ranged Martial Weapon
This wand creates a long, sticky web that lashes out at your command toward a creature in range. Make a melee spell attack against the target. If the attack hits, the creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull the creature up to 10 feet closer to you. You can only make one attack per round with a liante'temol.

Cost 300 gp
Damage 1d6 bludgeoning
Weight 1 lb.
Properties Simple, light, range 30

http://5egrognard.blogspot.com/2015/08/dark-elves-of-eska-moriedhel.html