What can be done to help Sunder?

[Elricaltovilla]

Tactically, sundering armor and weapons is a great tactic (against enemies that use stuff that can be sundered, of course). But sundering is probably everyone's least favorite combat maneuver, because it destroys valuable treasure and has limited use. So what can we do to make sundering more PC friendly?

[Darrin]

Lexicon of the Crafted Tool: Rebuild Item (Tome of Magic).

[Renen]

Just make it similar to disarm (except it can be used on armor too).
You dont just outright destroy the item, but you make it fall off, and unwearable until some maintenance was done, something like 10 minutes worth of fixing various straps and such. This way the enemy cant just pick it up and use it in the middle of battle, but once you win you just fix it up before your next bed time.

[Curmudgeon]

Sunder belts, quivers, scabbards, pouches, and other things holding the items you want to preserve.

[Red Fel]

Tactically, sundering armor and weapons is a great tactic (against enemies that use stuff that can be sundered, of course). But sundering is probably everyone's least favorite combat maneuver, because it destroys valuable treasure and has limited use. So what can we do to make sundering more PC friendly?

Well, let's start with a few key points about what makes sunder undesirable. Unless you take a feat tax, performing a sunder provokes AoOs. Nobody wants to do that, but nobody wants to waste the feat on a single combat maneuver. It destroys loot, as opposed to disarm, which simply removes it. It takes a melee attack to perform. Meaning that it can't be done at range, and it detracts from your ability to attack the target, since you're attacking an object rather than a threat. It targets a weapon or shield, or carried or held object. At least in 3.5, you can't sunder armor. More threatening enemies, later in the game, use spells or natural weapons, which can't be sundered; as such, it loses value.
Now, let's consider fixes based on each point. Make the AoO function of Improved Sunder a natural growth based on BAB. That is, when your BAB reaches +X, using a sunder maneuver no longer provokes AoOs. This makes sense, because in theory you're getting better at attacking. No more feat tax, no more AoOs. Instead of destroying loot, consider using PF's "broken (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Broken)" condition; the item still exists, but is now worse at its job until it is repaired. Alternatively, have a sundered item simply cease to function in its desired manner until it has been repaired; again, the item will be salvageable, but will require action out of combat to use. Make sundering an object a tag-along action with a melee attack, rather than one performed in place of a melee attack. Alternatively, allow a successful sunder attempt to also deal partial damage (or nonlethal damage) to the target; in all likelihood, if I just smashed your shield, you'd at least suffer some minor injuries from the impact. Make sundering armor a thing. That is awesome. Are you kidding me? Charging a dude with your lance, I want to see that lance rip through his breastplate and his torso. Suddenly boring becomes epic. Not much to do here, unless you are willing to allow "sundering" of natural weapons. I think it works; swing your sword hard enough against the dragon's claws, and you'll chip them to the point that it hurts to use them; drive a spear through his tail and disable it as a weapon until he's had some time to heal.
Just my thoughts.

[Nifft]

Throw out the idea of magical items as common loot.

Add cursed weapons as a type of antagonist -- they possess someone (perhaps a nominally good NPC) and force the NPC to fight you.

[Telonius]

Make sundering an object a tag-along action with a melee attack, rather than one performed in place of a melee attack. Alternatively, allow a successful sunder attempt to also deal partial damage (or nonlethal damage) to the target; in all likelihood, if I just smashed your shield, you'd at least suffer some minor injuries from the impact.

I don't think I'd want to make it a full tag-along effect. Otherwise there would be no reason not to sunder something with each attack. I'd think it would also depend on where the object is. Getting your shield sundered is going to hurt, but not as much as taking the impact from getting your armor sundered. Maybe the character takes 50% of the damage to the object (as nonlethal) if it's armor; 25% if it's a shield; 10% if it's a held object (like a weapon or wand) or worn object (like a Cloak of Resistance or other wondrous item). No damage if it's something like an Ioun stone.

[Troacctid]

How about making Improved Sunder give you a free melee attack if you successfully break their item? Basically give it the Improved Trip treatment. And the extra attack could stack with Combat Brute too, for value.

[redwizard007]

How about making Improved Sunder give you a free melee attack if you successfully break their item? Basically give it the Improved Trip treatment. And the extra attack could stack with Combat Brute too, for value.

I like this. If a sunder actually breaks the item you make an extra attack. Just to keep things from getting out of hand I'd make it count as an action of some kind to limit the potential for abuse.

For late game relevance I'd suggest a few modifications.

At BAB +5 you may sunder armor

At BAB +10 you may sunder A single ongoing magical effects on a target (charm, blur, haste, etc.) as if it is a held item with hardness = (spell level) and HP = (DC of a spell of that level by that caster.)

At BAB +15 you may sunder ongoing spell effects not tied to an individual (wall of fire, force cage, etc.) as if it were a held item with hardness = (spell level x 2) and HP = (10+ DC of a spell of that level by that caster.)

You still loose loot but all of a sudden the fighter has something to do besides fail will saves.

[Troacctid]

I'd probably limit it to one extra attack per opponent per round, kind of like how Improved Trip only lets you trip them once (because they can't be double-prone).

Give the same buff to Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, and Improved Overrun while we're at it, too. Why should Improved Trip be the only one that gives an extra attack? That's no fair.

[yellowrocket]

I like the idea of being able to sunder effects. I might adopt your scale of sunder effects.

[redwizard007]

I like the idea of being able to sunder effects. I might adopt your scale of sunder effects.

There are definitely campaigns where this wouldn't be appropriate and I could easily see it become a feat tree, but if you want relevance than BOOM!

There are dozens of other feats that could use a boost too. That's right Weapon Focus, we're looking at you.

[Curmudgeon]

For late game relevance I'd suggest a few modifications.

At BAB +5 you may sunder armor

At BAB +10 you may sunder A single ongoing magical effects on a target (charm, blur, haste, etc.) as if it is a held item with hardness = (spell level) and HP = (DC of a spell of that level by that caster.)
I suggest reversing these. Sundering Mage Armor, which your enemy can simply cast again, has less impact in the game than sundering physical armor which cannot so easily be restored.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well I pretty much only play Pathfinder, where sundering armor is just a thing you can do. But reducing the action cost on it, expanding it to be able to affect natural weapons and spells and generally doing away with a lot of the silliness of the pathfinder combat maneuver feat chains seems to work.

Making magic items less common is not a solution though, it alters the core math of character progression and flies in the face of the base assumptions of the game. It really doesn't make sundering any more attractive either, as all you do is reduce the wealth "ceiling" without fixing the wealth "floor." Less valuable treasure is still more valuable than more treasure, and you need all of that less valuable treasure if you want to keep up with the enemies you'll face as you level.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The main reason sunder is terrible is because it destroys treasure. So...fix that, and Sunder is suddenly worthwhile:



Destruction of magic items: If a magic item is destroyed completely (hp reduce to 0), the magic lays dormant within the item, but does not leave forever, as the rules state. Once a magic item is fully physically repaired, whether by a Make Whole spell, use of the craft skill, or other means, the magic slowly returns, at a rate of 10,000 gp of magical effects per day after being repaired, always requiring at least 24 hours to become fully functional again. The item's (new, if applicable) owner can decide which properties return first, though standard magic item creation rules apply where necessary (a +5 holy sword would need to regain at least a +1 bonus before regaining the holy ability, for example).

That was the gist of my idea on how to fix sunder years ago. But no one ever cared enough about sundering for me to bother implementing it.

The PF "broken" condition is a poor fix, the penalty is usually pretty for the effort put in on most objects, typically a -2 penalty on whatever. You sunder things to render them unusable, not to debuff slightly.

EDIT: Also, just for the record, you can't sunder worn armor. I saw that mentioned and thought, "wow, that's dumb, the whole point of armor is to take hits for you, how can the rules allow that?" And...the rules don't. Yay! :smallsmile:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sunder spell component pouches and divine focuses.

My group has always made it so that destroyed magic items, whether sundered or disjoined or eaten by a rust monster, etc., can be remade for half the cost of creating a new item of the same type, or sold as though it was worth half as much as before it was destroyed.

Honestly, there are just better options to sundering. Energy Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm) can target five items at once, even five separate items on the same creature. Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) can be used to remove a physically strong opponent's weapon from existence without risk of damaging it. Sunder was only ever necessary when the 3.0 Hydra's body was immune to damage, and the only means of killing it was to sever all its heads, but the 3.5 Hydra can just be damaged quickly enough to kill it while ignoring the mechanics involving the removal of its heads.

[ericgrau]

The main problem is actually paranoid players.

About half of magic weapons have a visible manifestation of its abilities, so don't sunder those. On top of that 30% glow. You probably don't want to sunder BBEG or LBEG weapons either. Besides that, magic weapons are a small portion of treasure so you're not likely to lose much. EDIT: magic weapons are also a lot harder to break, so measuring and limiting your damage output when sundering helps too.

Since your weapon is a high portion of your WBL and your treasure is a low portion of WBL, you are unlikely to find your main weapon in the loot. But many DMs give players an expensive weapon on purpose in the loot, treasure tables be darned. Then it's technically the DM's fault if it breaks, or he'll give you another one anyway. Or you take weapon focus on a weird weapon and if you find your focused weapon in the hand of an enemy you don't sunder that.

[thompur]

Take a level of Binder and bind Aym. You get the Improved Sunder feat as well as improved damage vs. objects. Plus you can move normally in heavy armor and get Fire Resistance 10.:smallbiggrin:

[redwizard007]

The main reason sunder is terrible is because it destroys treasure. So...fix that, and Sunder is suddenly worthwhile:


If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Appendix 2). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition. PF Core RB pg 201.

You have the option to destroy or not. Personally, If I want to loot an item more than deny it to my enemy I will disarm him, but I guess that's up to you...


EDIT: Also, just for the record, you can't sunder worn armor. I saw that mentioned and thought, "wow, that's dumb, the whole point of armor is to take hits for you, how can the rules allow that?" And...the rules don't. Yay! :smallsmile:

Re: sundering of armor

Improved Sunder (Combat)
You are skilled at damaging your foes’ weapons and armor.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver.

PF Core pg 128.

In addition, I'm inclined to see the eternal imperviousness of armor to damage as far dumber than the ability to damage it. Now, all of this requires a bit of porting from 3.5 to PF or vice versa, but many, if not most DMs seem just fine with that sort of borrowing in the name of fun. The important things are consistency and fun. If you hate the idea of needing to beg a mending off the wizard after every few fights then stay pure 3.5.

[Elricaltovilla]

Broken doesn't do enough to make it worthwhile most of the time. Barring WBL concerns you should be aiming to destroy items, that way they no longer apply any bonuses instead of only having their bonuses marginally reduced.

[Svata]

I suggest reversing these. Sundering Mage Armor, which your enemy can simply cast again, has less impact in the game than sundering physical armor which cannot so easily be restored.

True, but sundering magic seems like it should be a more difficult thing than sundering a piece of metal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

PF Core RB pg 201.

You have the option to destroy or not. Personally, If I want to loot an item more than deny it to my enemy I will disarm him, but I guess that's up to you...



Re: sundering of armor

PF Core pg 128.

In addition, I'm inclined to see the eternal imperviousness of armor to damage as far dumber than the ability to damage it. Now, all of this requires a bit of porting from 3.5 to PF or vice versa, but many, if not most DMs seem just fine with that sort of borrowing in the name of fun. The important things are consistency and fun. If you hate the idea of needing to beg a mending off the wizard after every few fights then stay pure 3.5.

Since when was this thread about sundering in PF? You quoted PF material multiple times to refute what I said about 3E.
Some people suggested importing the broken item rules from PF, but the thread seemed to be about 3E.
And I'm not sure what quoting the PF Imp. Sunder feat did to disprove that you can't sunder armor, it never even mentions armor.

Armor being impervious to sunder is necessary for D&D's abstracted combat. Armor doesn't reduce damage, it makes it harder to land a lethal (or nonlethal, in some cases) blow on you. Trying to bypass the AC system of abstracted defense by targeting worn armor directly would have significant implications. And yes, letting worn armor be sundered would harm the Fighter and not at all harm the Wizard, but that's just par for the course with PF's rules changes. You're right, I should stay 3.5, and I do.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well, to be fair I'm coming at this from a PF perspective too, since I don't play 3.5 anymore. But since a lot of the issues with sunder in PF are the same in 3.5 I didn't want to limit the discussion to just one system. I think we all just need to be more clear about which system we're talking about when we post.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah, usually when a thread is about PF, it has a tag or mentions it in the heading or OP, sorry.

In any case...what do you think of my idea? One thing I'm still unsure of is when you WANT to utterly destroy a magic item, so it can never be used by anyone again. There should be a way to accomplish that.

[Killer Angel]

How about making Improved Sunder give you a free melee attack if you successfully break their item?

Nice, but the basic problem (to break your loot) still remains.
I like StreamOfTheSky's idea.

[Elricaltovilla]

Ah, usually when a thread is about PF, it has a tag or mentions it in the heading or OP, sorry.

In any case...what do you think of my idea? One thing I'm still unsure of is when you WANT to utterly destroy a magic item, so it can never be used by anyone again. There should be a way to accomplish that.

Like I said, I didn't want to limit it to just PF as the problems with sunder exist in both games. I do like your idea, but I'm going to remain in favor of being able to sunder armor too :smalltongue:

[Der_DWSage]

As usual, Red Fel is the voice of reason. (He also took many of the points I would've made, but that's besides the point.) My own group has combined Sunder and Disarm, since honestly they fulfill the same role (Removing equipment from an opponent) and made it apply to natural weapons, natural armor, and the removal of buffs. We also do away entirely with combat maneuvers provoking AoOs unless the opponent has Combat Reflexes. Lemme grab the reworked feats from my Pathfinder Houserules documents.


Improved Sunder
Requirements:BAB +1
Benefits:You receive a +2 bonus on checks made on sunder checks, and may attempt to sunder natural weapons, natural armor, and other objects up to GM discretion. Natural weapons have hardness 5 or hardness equal to DR that you cannot overcome, whichever is higher, and HP equal to 5% of the foe's HP. A broken natural weapon cannot be used to make attacks. A foe with no remaining natural attacks instead slams, dealing 1d4 (Normal size)+Half Strength damage. Natural armor has hardness equal to the AC bonus it grants, and 5x that amount of HP. Broken Natural Armor provides only half as much benefit. Both of these conditions can be removed with magical healing or 8 hours rest. You may choose to disarm an opponent instead of breaking weapons, having their weapon land 10 feet away from them in a direction you choose. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.

Normal: You may only attempt to break weapons, armor, and attended objects.


Greater Sunder
Prerequisites: Improved Sunder, base attack bonus +6

Benefits:You receive an additional +2 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You have experienced enough of Golarion that you can see the weave of magic around affected creatures, and cut it away from them. If you target an opponent or item that has an active magical effect on them, you may make a Sunder check against magic similar to Dispel Magic. To do this, a Sunder check is made against the target's CMD + Spell level of the effect on them. Whenever you sunder to destroy a weapon, shield, or suit of armor, any excess damage is applied to the item's wielder. Lastly, if an opponent tries to sunder your wielded weapon, you may instead force it into being a Disarm instead of having your equipment broken. You gain an additional +2 bonus on Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.


Perfect Sunder
Prerequisites: Greater Sunder, base attack bonus +11

Benefits:You gain an additional +2 bonus on sunder checks. For every 5 points you beat an opponent's CMD by, you may sunder an additional piece of equipment or spell. All damage you deal against sundered objects is doubled, though this does not stack with other effects that multiply damage against objects such as the Treant's racial ability to deal damage or the Maul of the Titans. Whenever you confirm a critical hit against an opponent, you may also make a sunder attempt as a free action. You also receive an additional +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear.

...And while it's not in those feats anywhere, there's also the fact that the person making the sunder attempt knows whether or not there are spells on an opponent even without a spellcraft check when making a sunder attempt. Mostly in a mechanical sense of 'Welp, there goes my wasted turn' more than anything else, but I suppose it also makes for a very violent Detect Magic.

[Nifft]

Fixing item sundering... hmm.

Improved Sunder
When your mighty thews force your sword to plunges through magic, the magic plunges also into you.
(As core Improved Sunder, plus:)
When you break a magic item, you gain (resale value / 25) Craft XP or (resale value) Craft GP, your choice. If you're not a magical craftsperson, you can work with one -- a PC or an NPC -- and reduce the cost of a new magical item by spending your Craft XP or Craft GP.

[Curmudgeon]

True, but sundering magic seems like it should be a more difficult thing than sundering a piece of metal.
Armor doesn't have to be metal. But regardless of its construction, armor is designed to be hit repeatedly without losing its effectiveness. Very few spells are as long-lasting as armor. Magic is something that seems like you should be able to just ignore it and make it go away.

[Psyren]

@ PF Sunder discussion - what you guys are forgetting is the other big change PF made to sundering, i.e. you can fix most destroyed magic items and the magic comes back. Compare PF Make Whole (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/make-whole) to 3.5 Make Whole. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/makeWhole.htm) For magic items that are merely "broken", even Mending will work.

In other words, you can sunder all the way, destroying the item (thus removing it from the combat) and then cast Make Whole on the pieces to get your loot back, provided it's not a charged consumable.

[Telok]

The fix is simple. Sundered stuff doesn't count towards loot value or wealth by level.

The only complaint was the 'but it destroys loot' whine.

[redwizard007]

The fix is simple. Sundered stuff doesn't count towards loot value or wealth by level.

The only complaint was the 'but it destroys loot' whine.

That's actually quite simple. Wow. There are games where I would prefer the internal struggle of "to sunder, or not to sunder," but for typical high fantasy this is just perfect if all you are worried about is losing loot.

[Curmudgeon]

The fix is simple. Sundered stuff doesn't count towards loot value or wealth by level.
That may sound simple, but it isn't. If the DM has provided, on average, the values on Table 3–3: Treasure Values per Encounter (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 51), then they've done their job. Everything beyond that is the responsibility of the players. Your "fix" would require the DM to keep track of all the valuable items destroyed and populate every encounter scene with ad hoc extra wealth. This is lots of extra work for the DM, and heavy-handed wealth management just tends to suck the fun out of the game.