Re-balancing Pathfinder

[BrendanP]

Hi everyone, first time posting here, I was directed here from reddit with the recommendation this would be a better place for mechanics related constructive criticism etc. So here goes!

I'm trying to re-balance pathfinder, It's the only fantasy table top rpg my local group will play and we constantly cycle through DMing. When my turn rolls around again next year I want to have basically a massive redesign done, packaged along with a pretty enormous setting. This will be the 6th run in this setting, and I want it to come with some pretty cool changes.

I'm going to snip a lot of text and just address some stuff point form. Much of this is In My Humble Opinion, so if you disagree that's ok, I would still value any critique or assistance you are willing to offer.

Problems I want to address:
- Tier 1 classes in pathfinder break the game. The tendancy to be good at all mechanical aspects of gameplay make it extremely unrewarding to play anything but these classes.

-Tier 6 classes in pathfinder are only selected for flavour reasons, and then during the course of play tend to be unrewarding and overshadowed by almost any other class. They might still get played, and even be rewarded in terms of role play, but mechanically there is no reason these classes should get played.

-In general, the most balanced and game-health preserving classes tend to be found in tier 3 and 4.

(When I refer to tiers I follow the power's list of pathfinder tiers, I find it well laid out and explains the reasoning behind each tier clearly)

My solution:
Snip off the top and bottom classes, nerf tier 2, buff tier 5, and create new classes to fill the voids left from so many classes being removed.

I've planned out what classes to remove, what classes to create, and what classes to buff and nerf, I've already powered through three classes but I've hit a snag that falls outside my expertise and experience.

I'm trying to create a pair of pure arcane caster classes that fall within tier 3-4 power level. The first is the occultist, a hex user that has spell progression as a magus (spellbook, caps at 6th level spells, spell prep every morning). I'm running into difficulty for it's spell list. I know bards and magi have 7th level spells at 6th level, and on down the line, generally getting certain spell types a level sooner. Currently I've just copy and pasted the witch spell list to give myself a base, but I know it's going to be too underpowered if I don't shuffle some spells in from higher levels into lower levels.

So, without writing a book in my first post, the question is:

What criteria should I use to shuffle higher level spells lower, and how many should I shuffle for each level. My lack of experience with casters and specifically arcane casters is leaving me with no easy base of reference and I don't have any local gamers I can call to hash this one out with right now.

Any assistance of any kind, even if it's just a point in the right direction would be of significant help to me. Hopefully this is the beginning of something good and if people show interest I'll go into more detail on the changes I'm making, the classes I've made and plan to make etc.

Thanks for your time!
Brendan

[GreyBlack]

Something I've toyed with is killing all level 9 spellcasters and replacing them with level 6 spellcasters in some capacity. For example, if you want to play a wizard, turn the Magus into a character who can cast 2 spells per turn instead of sword and spell, while the bard turns into the sorcerer's domain of "I can spontaneously cast anything!" by modifying its spell list. The bottom end of the list, I'd argue, should exist because sometimes a player _does_ just want flavor reasons, so go for it! In saying that, level 9 casters tend to be too powerful and break the game.

[BrendanP]

Funny you should say that, but that is actually the sneaky result of this tweak. Wizard, Sorceror, Arcanist, Witch, Shaman, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and summoner are all removed. Arcane casters are going to be replaced with the occultist and elementalist that both cap at 6th, and there is a new arcane/rogue class called the illusionist i'm going to make that casts more like a paladin or ranger but that gets invisibility/greater invisibility at 3/7 like a full caster. They won't have full progression sneak attack though of course.

For divine classes, I'm taking the oracle and retooling it so that it takes up the spot left by the cleric as primary healer. Basically all oracles will get channel energy, as well as revelations/mystery, but progress as 6 level casters like a bard/magus too. With warpriests and hunters I don't need to make more militant aspects of druid or cleric. I'm calling the retooled oracle the priest, nodding back to old second edition.

As for leaving in the flavour choices, I'm doing two things: Removing eastern influences (no monks, ninjas or samurai), and splitting the rogue into the illusionist, wanderer and burglar classes that I'm planning to make. Fighter has already been removed and replaced, that was my warm up. Replaced with the soldier, weaponmaster and brute classes. Oh, also removed guns, it's not time for those yet, so no gunslinger or swashbuckler. Cavalier I'm on the fence about. He's not powerful enough as-is to meet my criteria, buffing him would be very touch and go, and the soldier class I've already made already has a line of talents that can basically do what he does, except without a horse under him.

This gives me flavourful reasons to remove almost all of the lower tiered classes, and then takes rogue, breaks him into three classes that all exemplify what a rogue tries to be just like I did for fighter. For assassin style rogues, the slayer already has been made, and it's a very solid class already so I don't need to do that one myself.

I've worked it out, and by the time I'm done I'll have made about 8 or so new classes, removed 15 or so and have 25~ playable classes, which is plenty in my opinion.

[GreyBlack]

Funny you should say that, but that is actually the sneaky result of this tweak. Wizard, Sorceror, Arcanist, Witch, Shaman, Cleric, Druid, Oracle, and summoner are all removed. Arcane casters are going to be replaced with the occultist and elementalist that both cap at 6th, and there is a new arcane/rogue class called the illusionist i'm going to make that casts more like a paladin or ranger but that gets invisibility/greater invisibility at 3/7 like a full caster. They won't have full progression sneak attack though of course.

For divine classes, I'm taking the oracle and retooling it so that it takes up the spot left by the cleric as primary healer. Basically all oracles will get channel energy, as well as revelations/mystery, but progress as 6 level casters like a bard/magus too. With warpriests and hunters I don't need to make more militant aspects of druid or cleric. I'm calling the retooled oracle the priest, nodding back to old second edition.

As for leaving in the flavour choices, I'm doing two things: Removing eastern influences (no monks, ninjas or samurai), and splitting the rogue into the illusionist, wanderer and burglar classes that I'm planning to make. Fighter has already been removed and replaced, that was my warm up. Replaced with the soldier, weaponmaster and brute classes. Oh, also removed guns, it's not time for those yet, so no gunslinger or swashbuckler. Cavalier I'm on the fence about. He's not powerful enough as-is to meet my criteria, buffing him would be very touch and go, and the soldier class I've already made already has a line of talents that can basically do what he does, except without a horse under him.

This gives me flavourful reasons to remove almost all of the lower tiered classes, and then takes rogue, breaks him into three classes that all exemplify what a rogue tries to be just like I did for fighter. For assassin style rogues, the slayer already has been made, and it's a very solid class already so I don't need to do that one myself.

I've worked it out, and by the time I'm done I'll have made about 8 or so new classes, removed 15 or so and have 25~ playable classes, which is plenty in my opinion.

Question? Why make new classes? The fighter is fine as it is, the barbarian is fine, the swashbuckler is fine, the cavalier is fine, all these classes are fine and have viable builds and good reasons to use them. Why remove the rogue, who (as of Unchained) is a perfectly viable class? I disagree with removing a class just because it's "Too strong" or "Too weak." I would only do so if I felt there were GRIEVOUS differences in the power level, or if there was a story reason for it (in my personal homebrew world, the majority of the level 9 casters when what essentially amounts to a magical EMP/Feedback was dropped on the world, severely limiting the use of level 9 casters as the knowledge was mostly lost). If a player wants to play a weak class because they have a flavor reason, don't rework the wheel and just let them play it. Maybe just warn them that the class may be weaker than they want and try to push them towards a class that's more powerful (e.g. "Y'know, maybe the cavalier isn't exactly what you want. Have you considered the Paladin or Warpriest?") Worst comes to worst, backport some of the 3.5 classes into Pathfinder to fill specific niches (e.g. Beguiler). Just be careful about killing and creating new classes willy nilly.

[Milo v3]

Despite being a homebrewer who enjoys making things like classes, I find that if your removing a class it's often easier to see if there is an equivalent that can be used rather than making a new class. So, if you're removing wizard, you can use occultist (from Occult Adventures) or vizier (from Akashic Mysteries) in it's place. If you're removing druid, use hunter (from Advanced Class Guide) in it's place. If you're removing witch, use one of the many archetypes that grant classes hexes. If you're removing cleric, use adepts (Core), onmyoji (Occult Adventures), inquisitors (Advanced Players Guide), and warpriests (Advanced Class Guide).

Though, with fighter it doesn't take much to tweak it to be good enough to retain. Just give it free VCM from Occult Adventures (with only it's levels counting towards which benefits you get), +2 skill points, and Combat Stamina as a bonus feat. This also makes fighters much more diverse since you can now have warriors who enter an adrenaline fueled state, commanders who can inspire their troops and know a wide variety of information, temple guards who are aided by the churches they protect, elven warriors aided by animals and can even shapeshift, assassins, maruaders who are descended from fiends, brutes with a familiar who are smarter than them and grant them hexes, soldiers who can summon monsters to aid them, etc.

[GreyBlack]

I find that if your removing a class it's often easier to see if there is an equivalent that can be used rather than making a new class. So, if you're removing wizard, you can use occultist (from Occult Adventures) or vizier (from Akashic Mysteries) in it's place. If you're removing druid, use hunter (from Advanced Class Guide) in it's place. If you're removing witch, use one of the many archetypes that grant classes hexes. If you're removing cleric, use adepts (Core), onmyoji (Occult Adventures), inquisitors (Advanced Players Guide), and warpriests (Advanced Class Guide).

Though, with fighter it doesn't take much to tweak it to be good enough to retain. Just give it free VCM from Occult Adventures (with only it's levels counting towards which benefits you get), +2 skill points, and Combat Stamina as a bonus feat. This also makes fighters much more diverse since you can now have warriors who enter an adrenaline fueled state, commanders who can inspire their troops and know a wide variety of information, temple guards who are aided by the churches they protect, elven warriors aided by animals and can even shapeshift, assassins, maruaders who are descended from fiends, brutes with a familiar who are smarter than them and grant them hexes, soldiers who can summon monsters to aid them, etc.

This. Before you look at killing base classes, read Pathfinder Unchained and Occult Mysteries. Really, if you're looking to "balance", you needn't look further than killing the level 9 spellcasters and looking at the new stuff.

[BrendanP]

Well I guess we see the problem differently. I don't see a fine class looking at the fighter or rogue. I agree barbarian is fine, but then, I'm basing a lot of this project on the concept of tiers. A tier 1 or 2 class is too powerful, a tier 5 or 6 class is too weak. Barbarians are rated as tier 4, that fits my criteria I've laid out for myself. Rogues (including unchained) and fighters are tier 5, which doesn't fit my criteria and needs addressing. I could try to nudge them up to tier 4 with a little buff here or there, but in the case of fighter I found the only way to buff them was to change them, and any amount of change on fighters was met with cries of dismay from everyone I showed them to, and the reason is this: The fighter is a blank slate, they are so unspecialized and open that there are many viable build paths and resulting character types, and everyone has their idea of how to play fighter. Changing the fighter will inevitably please one person, and piss off the rest. So if I can't change the class but it's underpowered, I have to remove it. That leaves a void. So I created three classes that when taken as a whole can do all the things fighters did, and do them just better enough that I would consider them tier 4.

I hope that answers your question. You may not agree with me but I feel my choices are pretty sequential, each one leading into the next.

There is another answer as to why though: This is my jam. I love tinkering under the hood. I've made 2 full table top rpgs myself, to the point of playtesting both of them. I'm a hobbyist game designer, I am constantly consuming media about game design, economics, sociology, psychology, everything I can find that I think brings me a bit more of an understanding of the trade. I get as much if not more enjoyment out of pathfinder in the process of modifying it as I do from actually playing the game. So, on the one hand, I see something that could be better and I try to fix it. On the other hand, if there was nothing wrong with pathfinder I would still tinker with it.

Hope one of those answers works for you. I'm not asking you to use the results of my labour of course, I don't think my solutions are perfect and everyone should use them. I'm just wrenching on the mechanics and seeing if I can tune them to my ideal of perfection.

[Edit] And of course two more replies since I have typed this out, luckily it still seems like a relevant reply, at least the second half. I'll make a quick second one to address the direct suggestions made though, one second.

[BrendanP]

Though, with fighter it doesn't take much to tweak it to be good enough to retain. Just give it free VCM from Occult Adventures (with only it's levels counting towards which benefits you get), +2 skill points, and Combat Stamina as a bonus feat. This also makes fighters much more diverse since you can now have...

I don't like combat stamina as a mechanic, I did look at it and I agree it goes a long way towards giving fighters what they need to function, but I disagree with how it's implemented. Having possibly twenty points to spend by level 15, and more than 500 feats to read through makes them unwieldy and hard to convince my group to look at. Also, it rakes over the coals the idea that fighters are the entry level class. You have to KNOW what you want from combat stamina or it's just not going to do the work it's meant to. I'm not sure what VCM are, I'll look that up right away though. I agree on the skill points, that's one of the changes I made too :)

Looked for VCM, not finding anything via google or searching through the d20pfsrd. I was guessing CM was combat maneuvers but no idea on the V.

Over all, your solution maintains the genericness of fighters, loses on the simplicity. Usable for sure, but I like what I came up with, and the work is already done. I haven't posted them here because I had hoped the conversation would lean towards the question I had asked about how to address the casters, not my choices on what classes need attention and how.


Despite being a homebrewer who enjoys making things like classes, I find that if your removing a class it's often easier to see if there is an equivalent that can be used rather than making a new class. So, if you're removing wizard, you can use occultist (from Occult Adventures) or vizier (from Akashic Mysteries) in it's place. If you're removing druid, use hunter (from Advanced Class Guide) in it's place. If you're removing witch, use one of the many archetypes that grant classes hexes. If you're removing cleric, use adepts (Core), onmyoji (Occult Adventures), inquisitors (Advanced Players Guide), and warpriests (Advanced Class Guide).

Maybe I didn't explain what I was up to very well. I am leaning on hunter for exactly that reason, same with war priest and inquisitors. All those classes are really nice pieces of work and some of the best classes in pathfinder from a design point of view. I'm not removing them and by removing access to all the tier one classes I expect they will see some more use at my local gaming table.

I shied away from using adept for a few reasons. As a replacement for a primary healer they just can't do it, I want a class with full channel energy progression in the game still, and spell progression ending in 5 is even more draconian than I'm willing to consider.

I don't have access to or budget to acquire books, so if it's not in the prc or d20pfsrd, I can't use it. The rest of my gaming group are in roughly the same boat, if it's not on those two sites then it doesn't get used. So, I would love to get my hands on those books and read up on what is apparently exactly the class I'm trying to make, but I guess I need to explore other options.

I hope that doesn't make me sound too contrary, I mean obviously I want to do this regardless of the necessity, but at the same time I do like to make my job easier, that's why I AM using the hunter, inquisitor and warpriest etc. I'm trying to only replace classes with my own when there is dire need. By removing Witch, Wizard, Sorceror and Arcanist, I NEED a full arcane caster, but I want to drop their power down, and preferably in a way that removes 8th, 9th and most 7th level spells from play. I looked at bard, magus and every other caster that only goes to six and none of their spell lists are what I'm looking for, no copy paste in this instance. Trust me, I'm not afraid to copy paste when there is a good solution already there. Every single one of my classes so far are probably 70-90% kit-bashed from other classes.

So in an attempt to bring things back around: Do any of you know of a resource or article, or have some wisdom you can share regarding creating spell lists for casting classes that cap at 6th? I will be working on this problem all night regardless, I was just hoping someone out there might have had a similar problem and had found some steps to follow or advice they could share.

[Milo v3]

Looked for VCM, not finding anything via google or searching through the d20pfsrd. I was guessing CM was combat maneuvers but no idea on the V.

Over all, your solution maintains the genericness of fighters, loses on the simplicity.

VCM is variant multiclassing. Nothing to do with combat maneuvers. Gives the fighter abilities from other classes like performances, wildshape, animal companions, favoured enemies, eidolons, judgements, hexes, etc. Basically it would make the fighter a semi-gestalt class and give them out of combat options, while retaining and expanding the versatility of the fighter.


I don't have access to or budget to acquire books, so if it's not in the prc or d20pfsrd, I can't use it. The rest of my gaming group are in roughly the same boat, if it's not on those two sites then it doesn't get used. So, I would love to get my hands on those books and read up on what is apparently exactly the class I'm trying to make, but I guess I need to explore other options.
Well vizier is already on d20pfsrd and occultist is going to be on it soon....

[BrendanP]

Well that is all kinds of good news! I was reading the teaser for the occultist and... I want.

VCM is... well very new to me. I didn't know it existed, but I find it intriguing. Fighters definitely get the most from it, and I like the flavour options they can get out of it.... I think I can use this down the road for sure. Looking it over, most of the abilities I'm trying to splash together don't hit until level 7 using this system, so I will likely continue to tinker in my own little way for the most part, but thank you very much for bringing this to my attention!

Anyhow, thanks! I will track down vizier right away, and then see where that takes me tonight :)

[Milo v3]

Well that is all kinds of good news! I was reading the teaser for the occultist and... I want.

VCM is... well very new to me. I didn't know it existed, but I find it intriguing. Fighters definitely get the most from it, and I like the flavour options they can get out of it.... I think I can use this down the road for sure. Looking it over, most of the abilities I'm trying to splash together don't hit until level 7 using this system, so I will likely continue to tinker in my own little way for the most part, but thank you very much for bringing this to my attention!

Anyhow, thanks! I will track down vizier right away, and then see where that takes me tonight :)

Fighters still need to get VCM for free rather than trading feats for it though to be useful, and even then it just bumps them up to low-tier 4 rather than making them balanced. But it's much easier than making new classes. Though, I do understand the desire to remake classes all together... For example, if I was remaking the wizard I'd probably have the words in the spellbook be more important. Might make a subsystem where you gain constant buffs and effects from whichever "spells" you put in your spellbook to more accurately represent how spells are portrayed in mythologies like Ancient Egyptian.

[BrendanP]

Hmmmmm. Ok, I see what you mean. The buff from VCM for free falls apart though if you just want a fighter that fights, not a fighter that rages or heals or hexes, so I'm kinda happy with my homebrew classes but it is an interesting mechanic that I will have to keep in mind for down the road. I wish stamina wasn't so cumbersome, I WANT to like it.

I like vizier! Very cool mechanic, definitely something I'd have never thought of. Makes me want a divine version. I see a class called guru mentioned but it's not coming up when I search for it. My guess is probably that's the divine one. Hopefully it gets released some time.

I like the idea of spells inscribed having a passive effect. I remember back in the day when how many spell pages a spell was actually was a consideration. Like having a full tome of all your spells and then the travelling book that was smaller and lighter but just full of the really useful stuff. Fun mechanic but makes sense why it got left behind.

[Milo v3]

If you want a fighter that fights, take barbarian, cavalier, or ranger VCM.

As for guru, it's more like a monk. Akasha is it's own system, so it has the controller/wizard equivalent Vizier (tier 3), skill-monkey/monk/rogue equivalent (tier 3), and the warrior/barbarian/paladin/fighter equivalent daevic (high tier 4).

[GreyBlack]

If we're already opening the floodgates of homebrew, why not start by simply looking at the dreamscarred press stuff? For fighter, we can replace them with the warlord and warder from path of war (think tome of battle for pathfinder) and stalker for rogue/monk. Rogue can be emulated by bards or alchemists with zero difficulty (both get trapfinding archetypes and alchemists gain sneak attack instead of bombs through an archetype).

HOWEVER, let me say something controversial! I wouldn't remove the summoner. The unchained variant is a rather large nerf and, on the whole, I don't find it nearly problematic enough (outside of certain archetypes) to warrant its removal.

[Zireael]

I also believe that removing classes outright is not the best idea.

The unchained rogue can be combined with some rogue fix to propel it to higher tier. The 9-level spellcasters can be replaced with similar 6-level spellcasters. Fighters can be replaced with warlords/warders.