Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXI

[Heliomance]

Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef LXIX. Here in Optimisation Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, as well as a "sweet spot" of their choosing that represents what they believe to be the high point of the build. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.

Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was 60 threads ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, August 16th, 2015 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Heliomance. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 09:59 GMT on Sunday, August 30th, 2015 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



Code immediately below (spoiler).

Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


2nd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


3rd
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


4th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


5th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


6th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


7th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


8th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


9th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


10th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


11th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


12th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


13th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


14th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


15th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


16th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


17th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


18th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


19th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Feats
New Class Abilities



For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


Code immediately below (spoiler)Spells per Day/Spells Known
Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


9th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


10th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


11th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


12th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


13th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


14th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


15th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


16th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


17th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


18th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


19th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


20th
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-



For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This month's Secret Ingredient is:
Dragonmarked's Silver Key!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honourable mention. The honourable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honourable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honourable Mention will go to the chairwoman's favourite build.

Allez, optimiser!

The Builds

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I: Entropomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V: War Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162702)
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164381)
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166539)
Iron Chef XII: War Mind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386)
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172233)
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174434)
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176049)
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178202)
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182492)
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190607)
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10976416)
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198921)
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206576)
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210071)
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214198)
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217441)
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220956)
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224008)
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227304)
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229688)
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233346)
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236908)
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239786)
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246072)
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249542)
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252923)
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13865473)
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255215)
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333)
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263173)
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266709)
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270196)
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122)
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279116)
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15216595)
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287314)
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291294)
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297327)
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall to Orcus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302487)
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307823)
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312773)
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317934)
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325164)
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330890)
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336373-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LV)
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI)
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?349040-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVII)
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357412-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVIII)
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364667-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LIX)
Iron Chef LX: Lasher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371835-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372145-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LX)
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?376810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXII)
Iron Cheff LXIII: WItchborn Binder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382632-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIII)
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387166-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIV)
Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?394981-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXV)
Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400810-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVI)
Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406613-Irogn-Chef-Optimisatiogn-Challegnge-ign-the-Playgrougnd-LXVII)
Iron Chef LXIX: Fang of Lolth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412530-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXVIII)
Iron Chef LXIX: Shiba Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420165-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXIX)
Iron Chef LXX: Order of the Bow Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?425634-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXX)

[Heliomance]

FAQ:
Q: What's this even about?
A: I'm glad you asked, actually... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15415117&postcount=1)

Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

Q: What about 3.0 materials?
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

Q: What about online sources in general?
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Heliomance is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavourably on it.

Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armour, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favourably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.

[Amphetryon]

Oh, goody. Eberron-specific this time. Competing.

[Venger]

my reaction when silver key is the secret ingredient (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKfn6TRBinI)

I am so down to cook

[Zaq]

I've always had a fondness for Silver Key. I don't know if I can come up with anything truly unique using it, but I'll see if anything can start percolating through my brain over the next few days.

[The Viscount]

Very interesting. Not sure if I'll cook this round, but it should certainly be entertaining.

[Razanir]

[REDACTED]

EDIT: Also, so everyone knows, the class is available on WotC's website. link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) No need to use the site that must not be named.

[Venger]

(stuff)

you probably want to edit that so the judges don't know what dish is yours and start a thread about it elsewhere.

[AvatarVecna]

By the Nine, this is wonderfully terrible. I look forward to the train wrecks that result from this secret ingredient.

[A_S]

I'll be judging this round. Updated criteria to come when I get around to them, but they won't be too far off from the ones I used for Shiba Protector.

[Razanir]

you probably want to edit that so the judges don't know what dish is yours and start a thread about it elsewhere.

The irony is that I no longer need to find [REDACTED]. I'm actually mostly done. It's just writing stuff up and figuring out what order to take things.

[Sgt. Cookie]

This is secret ingredient is soooo terrible.


I love it.

[Sian]

know how i might want to work it but i have some questions in the pipeline for the Chair before i start fleshing it out

[TerrickTerran]

Ah, Silver Key, I'm looking forward to this round.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm going to try my best to judge this one, as I don't really have any great ideas for this one. The end of this month is going to be a little hectic though so we'll see.

[samduke]

Dragonmarked's Silver Key

no comment -

[Sgt. Cookie]

Yep. I have an idea for this. Not sure how it'll work out on paper, but it all works in theory.

[Razanir]

I have a question for the judges and/or the chairman. Sending you a PM, Heliomance.

[Deadline]

The entry points for this seem remarkably obvious (and somewhat limited). I'm going to have to try very hard not to let Vizzini win this argument...

[Venger]

The entry points for this seem remarkably obvious (and somewhat limited). I'm going to have to try very hard not to let Vizzini win this argument...

eh, the way the man wants us to enter leaves us plenty of free levels, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Deadline]

eh, the way the man wants us to enter leaves us plenty of free levels, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Indeed. And those free levels seem an awful lot like a free gift. Beware anyone bearing a "free" gift.

It's a trick, get an axe. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxFOVtr9fbk)

[Amphetryon]

Is it just me, or is at least one of the alleged Class 'features' of Silver Key just destined to cost us all points, regardless of how we approach it?

[Venger]

Is it just me, or is at least one of the alleged Class 'features' of Silver Key just destined to cost us all points, regardless of how we approach it?

It's not just you. It's driving me nuts since its not like we can ignore it

[Deadline]

Is it just me, or is at least one of the alleged Class 'features' of Silver Key just destined to cost us all points, regardless of how we approach it?

I can see three things about the SI that I think are going to prime places to lose points (they are where I'd be looking for builds to address if I were judging), and I don't think any of them are the one Venger is referring to. Do you guys care to PM your thoughts after submissions are in? I'd be curious to compare notes.

Also, I think I've grappled with Vizzini enough to be comfortable with my class selection, now I just need to figure out everything else. :smalltongue:

Edit - This class brings me back to my first competition, the Bladesinger round. I'm just trying to decide if I want to go the route I did with Devon Ambrose, or if I want to pull a Tarantella. :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

This frickin' class. It requires several thief skills, trap sense...and then gives you trapfinding as a class feature. What, is the expected entry Dwarf Barbarian?! Ugh...

Oh no, now I've probably speculated enough to ruin somebody's build! A pox on me!

[Curmudgeon]

This frickin' class. It requires several thief skills, trap sense...and then gives you trapfinding as a class feature.
Well, no. Silver Key gives you Wardsense, which means you would fail to qualify for something which required Trapfinding. The class is a cornucopia of blessings. :smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

Well, no. Silver Key gives you Wardsense, which means you would fail to qualify for something which required Trapfinding. The class is a cornucopia of blessings. :smalltongue:

That oddity aside, it actually is quite a good class for making you better at what it says it makes you better at. It's a class for highly specialised wardbreakers, and it does that just fine. The problem is that it's so massively overspecialised that it does absolutely nothing else, including letting you kill things, and as killing things is the way you get more levels, this causes a slightly tricky situation.

[AvatarVecna]

That oddity aside, it actually is quite a good class for making you better at what it says it makes you better at. It's a class for highly specialised wardbreakers, and it does that just fine. The problem is that it's so massively overspecialised that it does absolutely nothing else, including letting you kill things, and as killing things is the way you get more levels, this causes a slightly tricky situation.

Technically, you gain XP for "overcoming challenges"; if nothing else, a character with this PrC should get XP for defeating trap encounters. That said, while it technically focuses on making you better at mundane B&E, it's still explicitly and hilariously worse at B&E than a caster would be.

It's good at making the skill checks...or at least slightly better than a straight rogue would be; it gets 1/day Invisiblility...which is good since their only chance of surviving combat is hiding in the shadows and not doing anything; it can get a small buff spell to protect them 1/day (or slightly more if waste use feats on Dragonmarked stuff)...which is easily dispelled due to using your class level as your caster level; it has a good Will save and gets a bonus to saves against divinations...which, with the easiest entry being rogue, makes it almost as good at resisting mental effects as a bard! The sole thing this class has that is legitimately good (in the sense that it gives you a near-unique capability that's actually more than just situationally useful) is the capstone ability "Master of Doors", and you have to survive to at least 13th level (I think) before you can use it.

Honestly, I think you're better off just taking the Dungeon Delver PrC from Complete Adventurer in almost all situations. But that wouldn't make for an interesting Iron Chef round, now would it?

[Venger]

Technically, you gain XP for "overcoming challenges"; if nothing else, a character with this PrC should get XP for defeating trap encounters. That said, while it technically focuses on making you better at mundane B&E, it's still explicitly and hilariously worse at B&E than a caster would be.

It's good at making the skill checks...or at least slightly better than a straight rogue would be; it gets 1/day Invisiblility...which is good since their only chance of surviving combat is hiding in the shadows and not doing anything; it can get a small buff spell to protect them 1/day (or slightly more if waste use feats on Dragonmarked stuff)...which is easily dispelled due to using your class level as your caster level; it has a good Will save and gets a bonus to saves against divinations...which, with the easiest entry being rogue, makes it almost as good at resisting mental effects as a bard! The sole thing this class has that is legitimately good (in the sense that it gives you a near-unique capability that's actually more than just situationally useful) is the capstone ability "Master of Doors", and you have to survive to at least 13th level (I think) before you can use it.

Honestly, I think you're better off just taking the Dungeon Delver PrC from Complete Adventurer in almost all situations. But that wouldn't make for an interesting Iron Chef round, now would it?

I'd like to request dungeon delver not be an iron chef, it requires like 60 skillranks and basically requires you to be a rogue, so there won't be any real room for variety.

you know a class is bad when it makes dungeon delver look good


I can see three things about the SI that I think are going to prime places to lose points (they are where I'd be looking for builds to address if I were judging), and I don't think any of them are the one Venger is referring to. Do you guys care to PM your thoughts after submissions are in? I'd be curious to compare notes.

Also, I think I've grappled with Vizzini enough to be comfortable with my class selection, now I just need to figure out everything else. :smalltongue:

Edit - This class brings me back to my first competition, the Bladesinger round. I'm just trying to decide if I want to go the route I did with Devon Ambrose, or if I want to pull a Tarantella. :smallwink:

I'd be happy to discuss things in the thread after the reveal, but not before then. I agree, I don't think we're talking about the same class feature.

qualification is cruel this round.

[Heliomance]

Technically, you gain XP for "overcoming challenges"; if nothing else, a character with this PrC should get XP for defeating trap encounters. That said, while it technically focuses on making you better at mundane B&E, it's still explicitly and hilariously worse at B&E than a caster would be.

It's good at making the skill checks...or at least slightly better than a straight rogue would be; it gets 1/day Invisiblility...which is good since their only chance of surviving combat is hiding in the shadows and not doing anything; it can get a small buff spell to protect them 1/day (or slightly more if waste use feats on Dragonmarked stuff)...which is easily dispelled due to using your class level as your caster level; it has a good Will save and gets a bonus to saves against divinations...which, with the easiest entry being rogue, makes it almost as good at resisting mental effects as a bard! The sole thing this class has that is legitimately good (in the sense that it gives you a near-unique capability that's actually more than just situationally useful) is the capstone ability "Master of Doors", and you have to survive to at least 13th level (I think) before you can use it.

Honestly, I think you're better off just taking the Dungeon Delver PrC from Complete Adventurer in almost all situations. But that wouldn't make for an interesting Iron Chef round, now would it?

It's more specialised than that. You don't expect a locksmith to be good at stealth, do you? That's what this clas is all about. You are a damn good locksmith and wardbreaker. Nothing else. At all.

[AvatarVecna]

It's more specialised than that. You don't expect a locksmith to be good at stealth, do you? That's what this clas is all about. You are a damn good locksmith and wardbreaker. Nothing else. At all.

It's even better than that. Not only are you a B&E expert that isn't the least bit stealthy, you're a B&E expert whose training in B&E is for the explicit purpose of not stealing stuff, but instead making that stuff harder to steal. While certainly an interesting concept and build for an NPC, I find the idea of a Silver Key PC hilarious, much like Dwarven Defender. It's classes like this that have convinced me that Dwarf is an NPC race.

[samduke]

A few things have occurred in the time that I have participated here that have made me decide that it is time for this competition to get a new chairperson. My reasons are my own I will not share them here as it is not appropriate.
if you disagree that is fine <be warned about flaming my post I will report you.>

[AvatarVecna]

A few things have occurred in the time that I have participated here that have made me decide that it is time for this competition to get a new chairperson. My reasons are my own I will not share them here as it is not appropriate.
if you disagree that is fine <be warned about flaming my post I will report you.>

I respect your opinion, even if I don't necessarily agree with it. I will say, however the chairperson being replaced with another is unlikely to occur if more people aren't of a similar opinion; if they aren't convinced, it won't happen. And while I can't say one way or another whether your reasons are objectively wrong, objectively right, or purely subjective, an argument consisting of "that's my opinion and I don't want to share" is unlikely to convince anybody. I understand that you withholding your reasoning is due (at least in part) to the rather public nature of the forum; perhaps if the conversation was moved to a more private setting (such as PMs), the reasoning could be shared? I will admit, I'm a bit curious as to your concerns, at least partially because I'm not usually too observant or particularly invested, so it's hard to tell when something needs to be done in a social setting.

[Amphetryon]

A few things have occurred in the time that I have participated here that have made me decide that it is time for this competition to get a new chairperson. My reasons are my own I will not share them here as it is not appropriate.
if you disagree that is fine <be warned about flaming my post I will report you.>

"Decide" or "believe"? The former would imply some effort to cause it to come to pass, in common usage of the term. Given that the chair is a position that, to this point, is held until the person chooses to step down or leave, that's a. . . difficult decision for someone other than the chair to make.

[Heliomance]

A few things have occurred in the time that I have participated here that have made me decide that it is time for this competition to get a new chairperson. My reasons are my own I will not share them here as it is not appropriate.
if you disagree that is fine <be warned about flaming my post I will report you.>

To clarify, what has happened here is that samduke submitted a build with no explanatory notes whatsoever. I queried whether this had been intentional, and pointed out that, without notes similar to those included by pretty much everyone else, it was likely to score extremely poorly. In response to that, he sent me a build with some cursory notes, and informed me that he would be calling for a new chair.

This is not the first time I have had trouble with samduke. He frequently submits poor-quality and/or unclear entries, and when I attempt to clarify (my sole motive being to try to help him improve his entries and thus his score), he consistently responds with aggression. He has repeatedly threatened to withdraw and/or suggested that I am an incompetent chair and should stand down, usually when he submits incomprehensible disputes which I refused to post until I actually understood what the dispute is about.

I had been considering simply not posting any more of his entries if this pattern of behaviour continued, and after this latest example I am strongly inclined to go ahead and do so.

[AvatarVecna]

-The other side of the story-

If this is the case, then I think I at least understand where he's coming from. As I've understood it, the chairperson's position exists both to keep multiple people from trying to start the next thread and to ensure that the contest remains as close to double-blind judging as possible (to prevent bias). By attempting to influence samduke's entry, however helpful that influence may or may be during the judging, it damages (or at least, appears to damage) the anti-bias nature of the position. If they wish to enter a build in a particular way, they would submit that build, and not another; if they wished to change it later, they would resubmit with a request to change out the old for the new. But the chairperson trying to lead the person in the direction of an entry more likely to score better, whatever their method of leading, their method of improving the entry, or their original intentions, it is damaging the unbaised nature of the contest, and some people take that very seriously.

Case in point: if I had decided to continue judging for the previous round (as I originally intended to before real life took over), I would now almost certainly know which build was samduke's, due to having looked them all over very thoroughly for days (hell, I haven't looked them all over that thoroughly, and I'm still like 95% sure I know which build is samduke's). If I was biased towards or against samduke, I would now be capable of altering his own score or the scores of others to influence the contest results to make samduke a winner/loser, just because I felt like it. I mean, I wouldn't do something like that, but the point is that if I had continued trying to judge, and if I was the kind of person who would do something like that, the post I'm currently responding to has just given me the opportunity to be biased.

EDIT: In light of this, I have edited the specifics of samduke's entry out of the text I quoted, and I suggest you do the same in your own post; Darrin is still judging, and I'd rather not have accusations of bias taint the contest. I realize this is just a silly internet contest with no prize, but fairness is something I take abnormally seriously. I'm sorry if anything I've said offends you, but my opinion on the matter remains.

[Sian]

not much to mention, but i'll note that i've noticed a similar tendency as Heliomance have in the (few) Zinc Sauciers i've chaired as of yet.

That someone have a distinct style (no matter in which direction that style is, if its lacking in notes or novel-sized fluff) does automaticly make it easier for judges, audience (and opposing competitors) to identify the cook behind a dish ... a friendly note from the Chair in an attempt to highlight the (negative) issues that might be, is only proof that the chair is hoping that the cook can learn to get closer to what the general expectation is and get more positive response out of his creativity.

As for disputes, I'd say its to be excepted that there is a certain ammount of screening from the Chair ... if nothing else then park it under a spoiler tag noting that the chair doesn't argee with it being a dispute, and is discouraging the judges to take it as such unless they feel like it.

IMPORTANT NOTE: It have nothing to due with any cook having a bad understanding and use of english (hell i know i have a tendency to mix things up every now and again, and sometimes reading back on some older posts they're extremely cringeworthy), its the lack of acceptence of constructive critique, and hostile attitude towards said critique

[Heliomance]

If this is the case, then I think I at least understand where he's coming from. As I've understood it, the chairperson's position exists both to keep multiple people from trying to start the next thread and to ensure that the contest remains as close to double-blind judging as possible (to prevent bias). By attempting to influence samduke's entry, however helpful that influence may or may be during the judging, it damages (or at least, appears to damage) the anti-bias nature of the position. If they wish to enter a build in a particular way, they would submit that build, and not another; if they wished to change it later, they would resubmit with a request to change out the old for the new. But the chairperson trying to lead the person in the direction of an entry more likely to score better, whatever their method of leading, their method of improving the entry, or their original intentions, it is damaging the unbaised nature of the contest, and some people take that very seriously.

Case in point: if I had decided to continue judging for the previous round (as I originally intended to before real life took over), I would now almost certainly know which build was samduke's, due to having looked them all over very thoroughly for days (hell, I haven't looked them all over that thoroughly, and I'm still like 95% sure I know which build is samduke's). If I was biased towards or against samduke, I would now be capable of altering his own score or the scores of others to influence the contest results to make samduke a winner/loser, just because I felt like it. I mean, I wouldn't do something like that, but the point is that if I had continued trying to judge, and if I was the kind of person who would do something like that, the post I'm currently responding to has just given me the opportunity to be biased.

EDIT: In light of this, I have edited the specifics of samduke's entry out of the text I quoted, and I suggest you do the same in your own post; Darrin is still judging, and I'd rather not have accusations of bias taint the contest. I realize this is just a silly internet contest with no prize, but fairness is something I take abnormally seriously. I'm sorry if anything I've said offends you, but my opinion on the matter remains.

Bear in mind that it's not just "leading the person in the direction of an entry more likely to score better", it's "leading the person in the direction of actually complying with the contest rules". The original build, as submitted, did not meet the rules as stated in the first post:

Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game.

No explanatory note at all was provided.

[AvatarVecna]

IMPORTANT NOTE: It have nothing to due with any cook having a bad understanding and use of english (hell i know i have a tendency to mix things up every now and again, and sometimes reading back on some older posts they're extremely cringeworthy), its the lack of acceptence of constructive critique, and hostile attitude towards said critique

I can sympathize with that; rejecting constructive criticism is never really a good thing, but the chair isn't the person to give that advice; that's on the judges. When it comes from the chair, it can be personal, when it comes from the judges, the very existence of the chair keeps it from being a personal attack, making it more likely that the criticism will be at least acknowledged, taken into account, and perhaps remedied in the future. I will point out that, in their last post, Heliomance has mentioned that they've considered just not posting samduke's entry before, and has actually refused to post their disputes until they could understand what was being disputed; regardless of the chair's feelings about a build, its viability as a build, or the comprehensibility of the disputes is for the judges to deal with; the chair's purpose is keeping things impersonal and unbaised.

EDIT: For prosperity.


I had been considering simply not posting any more of his entries if this pattern of behaviour continued, and after this latest example I am strongly inclined to go ahead and do so.

[AvatarVecna]

Bear in mind that it's not just "leading the person in the direction of an entry more likely to score better", it's "leading the person in the direction of actually complying with the contest rules". The original build, as submitted, did not meet the rules as stated in the first post:


No explanatory note at all was provided.

Fair enough, that's a major issue, but that's still on the judges; if a submitted build is blatantly breaking contest rules, especially if nothing but a build table is provided (or something similarly minimalist), the judges will take one look at it and go "LOL WTF GTFO" by giving some single digit score total for the build (or even an across-the-board goose egg). Granted, I'm still not totally sure what the chairperson's actual duties are, by my impression has been that they exist to serve as a barrier to keep personal bias from tainting the competition.

That all said, that's not a very acceptable build; if I were judging it, I'd almost certainly give it a terrible score, just because of how much of the work is being put on me to imagine and/or look up the stuff needed for the build to function.

[Heliomance]

I can sympathize with that; rejecting constructive criticism is never really a good thing, but the chair isn't the person to give that advice; that's on the judges. When it comes from the chair, it can be personal, when it comes from the judges, the very existence of the chair keeps it from being a personal attack, making it more likely that the criticism will be at least acknowledged, taken into account, and perhaps remedied in the future. I will point out that, in their last post, Heliomance has mentioned that they've considered just not posting samduke's entry before, and has actually refused to post their disputes until they could understand what was being disputed; regardless of the chair's feelings about a build, its viability as a build, or the comprehensibility of the disputes is for the judges to deal with; the chair's purpose is keeping things impersonal and unbaised.

EDIT: For prosperity.

Regarding the disputes, this was back when judges were being massively overwhelmed with disputes every contest, and it was extending the judging time drastically. One of the purposes of the chair, as generally agreed a few threads ago, should be to stand as a buffer between the judges and spurious disputes. As I literally could not understand what the dispute was about, I declined to post it. I did offer samduke multiple opportunities to clarify what he meant, and let him know I would be happy to post the dispute as soon as I knew what his dispute was, but he declined.

My considering barring him from the competition is a result of a repeated and long-term pattern of hostility. I had not decided to do it, I still have not done so, but if he's calling for my replacement for the crime of pointing out that part of his entry was missing, then I am very close to making that decision.


Fair enough, that's a major issue, but that's still on the judges; if a submitted build is blatantly breaking contest rules, especially if nothing but a build table is provided (or something similarly minimalist), the judges will take one look at it and go "LOL WTF GTFO" by giving some single digit score total for the build (or even an across-the-board goose egg). Granted, I'm still not totally sure what the chairperson's actual duties are, by my impression has been that they exist to serve as a barrier to keep personal bias from tainting the competition.

I generally read through all the builds as they come in, barring RL getting in the way. I also generally will let a contestant know if they've missed a major part of the entry, or made a glaringly obvious mistake that I can spot with a glance through. From the number of people that go "Oops, forgot to copy that bit into my entry" or "my bad, didn't realise the way we played it was a house rule", I can only assume that this is generally appreciated.

If the general feeling in the thread is that I should just post builds warts and all, and not let people know when they've missed something major but easily fixed that will affect their score, then I can start doing that. As I have no stake in the judging, it's purely in the interests of improving the standard of the competition as a whole. A build getting lower than it deserved because of an oversight that can be easily corrected is a let down for everyone involved.

[AvatarVecna]

Regarding the disputes, this was back when judges were being massively overwhelmed with disputes every contest, and it was extending the judging time drastically. One of the purposes of the chair, as generally agreed a few threads ago, should be to stand as a buffer between the judges and spurious disputes. As I literally could not understand what the dispute was about, I declined to post it. I did offer samduke multiple opportunities to clarify what he meant, and let him know I would be happy to post the dispute as soon as I knew what his dispute was, but he declined.

My considering barring him from the competition is a result of a repeated and long-term pattern of hostility. I had not decided to do it, I still have not done so, but if he's calling for my replacement for the crime of pointing out that part of his entry was missing, then I am very close to making that decision.

Fair enough. Based on the information I have at this point (which, admittedly, is very limited information gained from one post by samduke and several posts from you, as well as my own observations), I'm inclined to agree with his point in general, but your point in this specific case. Of course, without knowing more specific details (which would require breaking that anti-bias shield even further than we already have with this discussion), I can't really say for sure one way or the other. If others have noticed and can attest to the argumentative, unyielding nature samduke purportedly possesses, their chiming in would lend weight to your side of the argument, at least in my eyes. Regardless, without further information, I'm leaning towards your argument in this particular case, even if I disagree in general.

EDIT:


I generally read through all the builds as they come in, barring RL getting in the way. I also generally will let a contestant know if they've missed a major part of the entry, or made a glaringly obvious mistake that I can spot with a glance through. From the number of people that go "Oops, forgot to copy that bit into my entry" or "my bad, didn't realise the way we played it was a house rule", I can only assume that this is generally appreciated.

If the general feeling in the thread is that I should just post builds warts and all, and not let people know when they've missed something major but easily fixed that will affect their score, then I can start doing that. As I have no stake in the judging, it's purely in the interests of improving the standard of the competition as a whole.

Also a fair argument supporting shepherding builds in the right direction, and given the circumstances these events took place under, I can understand why it was done and agree that it was probably the most elegant solution.

[Amphetryon]

As a former Iron Chef chair, part of the role of that position, as I understood it and as had been demonstrated by my then-predecessors, was acting as an additional layer of communication between contestants and judges. If a contestant submitted a build which did not comply with the contest's posted rules, or did not communicate its function in ways that the judges were likely to understand, I made note of that to the contestant, as previous chairs had done for me. If a dispute was based on pure difference of opinion regarding efficacy or originality, rather than on actual rules, I clarified with contestants who submitted such disputes whether they felt there was a rules-based foundation, RAW or RAI, for their dispute before posting it; I understood it to be in my discretion not to post disputes which had no such foundation, particularly when a particular dispute had no impact on medals or final standings, as my predecessors had generally done before me.

In short, part of my understanding of the chair's duties is to act as final arbiter of what is an acceptable build, and what is an acceptable dispute. This was how it was approached by others before I took up that position, and appears to be consistent with Heliomance's current understanding of the chair's duties, as well.

The above is presented as food for thought.

[AvatarVecna]

As a former Iron Chef chair, part of the role of that position, as I understood it and as had been demonstrated by my then-predecessors, was acting as an additional layer of communication between contestants and judges. If a contestant submitted a build which did not comply with the contest's posted rules, or did not communicate its function in ways that the judges were likely to understand, I made note of that to the contestant, as previous chairs had done for me. If a dispute was based on pure difference of opinion regarding efficacy or originality, rather than on actual rules, I clarified with contestants who submitted such disputes whether they felt there was a rules-based foundation, RAW or RAI, for their dispute before posting it; I understood it to be in my discretion not to post disputes which had no such foundation, particularly when a particular dispute had no impact on medals or final standings, as my predecessors had generally done before me.

In short, part of my understanding of the chair's duties is to act as final arbiter of what is an acceptable build, and what is an acceptable dispute. This was how it was approached by others before I took up that position, and appears to be consistent with Heliomance's current understanding of the chair's duties, as well.

The above is presented as food for thought.

Hrm...one person insisting on a thing is a freak accident; two is a coincidence. Three is a pattern. Yeah, it's getting harder to defend this particular case. Still, it might turn out that samduke's side of the story ends up coming across wildly different. And, seeing as their reasoning was seemingly only withheld to keep it from clogging the thread, there's not much point to holding it back at this point.

[Venger]

To clarify, what has happened here is that samduke submitted a build with no explanatory notes whatsoever. I queried whether this had been intentional, and pointed out that, without notes similar to those included by pretty much everyone else, it was likely to score extremely poorly. In response to that, he sent me a build with some cursory notes, and informed me that he would be calling for a new chair.

This is not the first time I have had trouble with samduke. He frequently submits poor-quality and/or unclear entries, and when I attempt to clarify (my sole motive being to try to help him improve his entries and thus his score), he consistently responds with aggression. He has repeatedly threatened to withdraw and/or suggested that I am an incompetent chair and should stand down, usually when he submits incomprehensible disputes which I refused to post until I actually understood what the dispute is about.

I had been considering simply not posting any more of his entries if this pattern of behaviour continued, and after this latest example I am strongly inclined to go ahead and do so.

Wow. Yeah I'd support that decision. There's no place for that.


Bear in mind that it's not just "leading the person in the direction of an entry more likely to score better", it's "leading the person in the direction of actually complying with the contest rules". The original build, as submitted, did not meet the rules as stated in the first post:


No explanatory note at all was provided.
More than fair

I can sympathize with that; rejecting constructive criticism is never really a good thing, but the chair isn't the person to give that advice; that's on the judges. When it comes from the chair, it can be personal, when it comes from the judges, the very existence of the chair keeps it from being a personal attack, making it more likely that the criticism will be at least acknowledged, taken into account, and perhaps remedied in the future. I will point out that, in their last post, Heliomance has mentioned that they've considered just not posting samduke's entry before, and has actually refused to post their disputes until they could understand what was being disputed; regardless of the chair's feelings about a build, its viability as a build, or the comprehensibility of the disputes is for the judges to deal with; the chair's purpose is keeping things impersonal and unbaised.

EDIT: For prosperity.
I can't understand why you're siding against the chair. I feel like you're ignoring the actual issue. The poor quality or illegality of samdukes builds aside the reason Heliomance considered (but even then ultimately did anyway) not posting the builds seems to be his disgusting behavior.

When someone tells you you aren't following the rules and even gives advice about how to fix it so the judges won't tear you apart and you respond repeatedly by throwing a tantrum and saying they're incompetent they are not the one at fault. You are.


Fair enough, that's a major issue, but that's still on the judges; if a submitted build is blatantly breaking contest rules, especially if nothing but a build table is provided (or something similarly minimalist), the judges will take one look at it and go "LOL WTF GTFO" by giving some single digit score total for the build (or even an across-the-board goose egg). Granted, I'm still not totally sure what the chairperson's actual duties are, by my impression has been that they exist to serve as a barrier to keep personal bias from tainting the competition.
Actually no. This is within a chairs duty. It came up at least once in mind bender when some genius submiTted a build that was not even twenty levels long. The chair asked the thread and agree to post it after the reveal do it would not get the unearned privilege of being judged with those of us who actually bothered to follow the rules

Edit remembered wrong

It's hard to convey tone online so let me preface this by saying I don't mean this sarcastically at all

If by your own admission you don't know what the chairs duties are perhaps you shouldn't dictate to the chair (the original iron chef chair no less who outlined what their duties are) what is And isn't a part of their job

While that's part of it they also filter comments and disputes and answer rules questions.

During amphetryons reign as chair I asked all manner of stupid questions about how the rules worked with the secret ingredient and he would kindly answer them So the judges did not have to be bogged down with a bunch of questionable rules interpretations.
(Apologies amph I was young and foolish and you were never anYthing but patient)

Sometimes when I had a dispute he would say it was not worth putting in the thread proper because I'd misread something or what have you.

And that's great. It means the judges don't have to waste time with vacuous disputes. This too is part of the chairs duty


That all said, that's not a very acceptable build; if I were judging it, I'd almost certainly give it a terrible score, just because of how much of the work is being put on me to imagine and/or look up the stuff needed for the build to function.
Right. That's why the contest rules are there. If you don't follow them you shouldn't be judged with those who actually bothered to.

Again you seen to be ignoring samdukes unacceptable behavior which is the larger problem.

Heliomance invented this contest and it's by her own investment of time and effort that we cook here. If someone's gonna basically spit in her face Im fine with booting him from the contest.

[Heliomance]

If by your own admission you don't know what the chairs duties are perhaps you shouldn't dictate to the chair (the original iron chef chair no less who outlined what their duties are) what is And isn't a part of their job

...

Heliomance invented this contest and it's by her own investment of time and effort that we cook here.

Many thanks for the defence, but you give me too much credit. I didn't invent the contest, I merely imported it from Brilliant Gameologists. The original idea belongs to Caelic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1701.0).

[AvatarVecna]

Wow. Yeah I'd support that decision. There's no place for that.


More than fair

I can't understand why you're siding against the chair. I feel like you're ignoring the actual issue. The poor quality or illegality of samdukes builds aside the reason Heliomance considered (but even then ultimately did anyway) not posting the builds seems to be his disgusting behavior.

When someone tells you you aren't following the rules and even gives advice about how to fix it so the judges won't tear you apart and you respond repeatedly by throwing a tantrum and saying they're incompetent they are not the one at fault. You are.


Actually no. This is within a chairs duty. It came up at least once in mind bender when some genius submiTted a build that was not even twenty levels long. The chair asked the thread and agree to post it after the reveal do it would not get the unearned privilege of being judged with those of us who actually bothered to follow the rules

It's hard to convey tone online so let me preface this by saying I don't mean this sarcastically at all

If by your own admission you don't know what the chairs duties are perhaps you shouldn't dictate to the chair (the original iron chef chair no less who outlined what their duties are) what is And isn't a part of their job

While that's part of it they also filter comments and disputes and answer rules questions.

During amphetryons reign as chair I asked all manner of stupid questions about how the rules worked with the secret ingredient and he would kindly answer them So the judges did not have to be bogged down with a bunch of questionable rules interpretations.
(Apologies amph I was young and foolish and you were never anYthing but patient)

Sometimes when I had a dispute he would say it was not worth putting in the thread proper because I'd misread something or what have you.

And that's great. It means the judges don't have to waste time with vacuous disputes. This too is part of the chairs duty


Right. That's why the contest rules are there. If you don't follow them you shouldn't be judged with those who actually bothered to.

Again you seen to be ignoring samdukes unacceptable behavior which is the larger problem.

Heliomance invented this contest and it's by her own investment of time and effort that we cook here. If someone's gonna basically spit in her face Im fine with booting him from the contest.

I agree that samduke's behavior isn't acceptable, especially given how this is hardly the first time it's come up. My initial reaction was based on my ( admittedly limited) understanding of the chair's duties. I agree that, in this particular case, Heliomance has made the right call. Most of the reason I've been arguing devil's advocate as long as I have is because Heliomance's first response to the issue gave away enough details to identify samduke's build in the as-of-yet unfinished previous round, as well as admitted to both attempting to lead him to enter something more appropriate and considering just leaving his build/disputes out of the contest in the future. Without knowing about samduke's behavioral history, or knowing that the chair's duties involve keeping out people who don't know what they're doing, all three of these behaviors seemed wildly innappropriate for a person whose duties seemed to be (from my understanding) to keep things impersonal and unbiased. I reacted thusly, and all three behaviors have since been explained in a manner that I can sympathize with and see the argument of.

Once more, at this point in time, I agree that Heliomance has made the right decisions throughout all of this, because this particular case is samduke (who apparently has a history of behaving like this); if these actions had been taken against someone less confrontational, I would even now continue taking their side on the matter, but that is not the case here, and I have ceded the argument.

[Heliomance]

Heliomance's first response to the issue gave away enough details to identify samduke's build in the as-of-yet unfinished previous round

Actually, no - the build in question is for this round.

[Venger]

Many thanks for the defence, but you give me too much credit. I didn't invent the contest, I merely imported it from Brilliant Gameologists. The original idea belongs to Caelic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1701.0).
Derp. That's what I meant. Sorry.

I agree that samduke's behavior isn't acceptable, especially given how this is hardly the first time it's come up. My initial reaction was based on my ( admittedly limited) understanding of the chair's duties. I agree that, in this particular case, Heliomance has made the right call. Most of the reason I've been arguing devil's advocate as long as I have is because Heliomance's first response to the issue gave away enough details to identify samduke's build in the as-of-yet unfinished previous round, as well as admitted to both attempting to lead him to enter something more appropriate and considering just leaving his build/disputes out of the contest in the future. Without knowing about samduke's behavioral history, or knowing that the chair's duties involve keeping out people who don't know what they're doing, all three of these behaviors seemed wildly innappropriate for a person whose duties seemed to be (from my understanding) to keep things impersonal and unbiased. I reacted thusly, and all three behaviors have since been explained in a manner that I can sympathize with and see the argument of.

Once more, at this point in time, I agree that Heliomance has made the right decisions throughout all of this, because this particular case is samduke (who apparently has a history of behaving like this); if these actions had been taken against someone less confrontational, I would even now continue taking their side on the matter, but that is not the case here, and I have ceded the argument.
Okay. Thanks for explaining. Glad we're all on the same page.

How's everyone's dish coming? My back story us giving me a real headache

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, no - the build in question is for this round.

But you also mentioned he had a tendency to post builds like this. There's at least one build submitted to OotBI that seems to fit the same tendencies you listed, which seemed to give it away (at least to me). But I don't even know for sure that he even submitted a build to that contest, so maybe that doesn't mean anything.

[Heliomance]

But you also mentioned he had a tendency to post builds like this. There's at least one build submitted to OotBI that seems to fit the same tendencies you listed, which seemed to give it away (at least to me). But I don't even know for sure that he even submitted a build to that contest, so maybe that doesn't mean anything.

The contest anonymity is a relatively thin shield, to be honest. Chefs that regularly compete tend to develop a style of entry presentation that they favour - I know I was fairly consistent with my entry format when I've competed in the past. I've never gone through and studied it, but I'm fairly certain that if you were to read through previous contests and note patterns, you could predict which chefs submitted which builds with a high degree of accuracy.

[AvatarVecna]

The contest anonymity is a relatively thin shield, to be honest. Chefs that regularly compete tend to develop a style of entry presentation that they favour - I know I was fairly consistent with my entry format when I've competed in the past. I've never gone through and studied it, but I'm fairly certain that if you were to read through previous contests and note patterns, you could predict which chefs submitted which builds with a high degree of accuracy.

I won't deny that I've noticed it (I've pretty consistently figured out if Curmudgeon submitted a build, and which build, once the disputes roll in), but however unwritten the transparency is, acknowledging its existence so blatantly brings up the question "why are we bothering at all?", which I can't seem to find a satisfying answer to. I'll just chalk it up to my less-than-stellar understanding of group socialization.

[Amphetryon]

How's everyone's dish coming? My back story us giving me a real headache
Vizzini is strong, and I'm still running up against the aforementioned issue with a particular aspect of the SI creating a deduction regardless of how I approach it.


I won't deny that I've noticed it (I've pretty consistently figured out if Curmudgeon submitted a build, and which build, once the disputes roll in), but however unwritten the transparency is, acknowledging its existence so blatantly brings up the question "why are we bothering at all?", which I can't seem to find a satisfying answer to. I'll just chalk it up to my less-than-stellar understanding of group socialization
In theory, a new contestant's entry will at least loosely resemble someone's existing format, in addition to the format given in the first round; since new contestants are a fairly regular thing to-date, this makes it likely (to varying degrees based on number of entries) that an observer may believe more than one entry is from the same regular contestant, when this is not the case. Alternately, one of the regulars could choose to use a different regular competitor's 'template' for a given round, in order to improve anonymity; I know I've used a couple of different templates throughout the contest, even if my writing style is itself recognizable. Finally, the mere fact that folks have to guess at which entry belongs to which competitor before the reveal indicates the concept of submitting anonymously is functioning as intended. If a regular observer guesses which regulars submitted a build 90% of the time, that 10% failure chance is greater than the chance of rolling a Fumble by a wide margin. I need not remind you how the community feels about Fumbles, when enforced, being too frequent. In other words, people guess wrong often enough that anonymity serves its intended function, IMO.

[Venger]

I won't deny that I've noticed it (I've pretty consistently figured out if Curmudgeon submitted a build, and which build, once the disputes roll in), but however unwritten the transparency is, acknowledging its existence so blatantly brings up the question "why are we bothering at all?", which I can't seem to find a satisfying answer to. I'll just chalk it up to my less-than-stellar understanding of group socialization.

There are a number of reasons. One is to prevent cronyism. If I am friends with someone who cooks it prevents me from giving him preferential treatment. It also prevents me from marking someone down if I grown to dislike him and not for flaws with his dish.

It's also important in the dispute process. Those were once done non anonymously. It didn't turn out well

Seniority is another thing is prevents. If you are new either to the board or the contest your dish can be evaluated on its own merits. The same is true if you're an iron chef veteran like piggy or ponies. This way your reputation can't spoil the judge's palate.

Since chefs gravitate toward certain things you might be able to tell who did some dishes. But that's unavoidable. There is no way to have perfect anonymity but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try (nirvana fallacy)

I could often spot piggy but despite his prolific he is I can't successfully spot ponies so it's not like anonymity is a waste of time.

Yeah group sociaLization is tricky

[AvatarVecna]

It's also important in the dispute process. Those were once done non anonymously. It didn't turn out well

Ooh, yeah. This on its own is a good reason. Even if you knew who was disputing it, the chairperson acting as messenger keeps it impersonal, even if the dispute and/or dispute response is incredibly insulting.

[Venger]

Ooh, yeah. This on its own is a good reason. Even if you knew who was disputing it, the chairperson acting as messenger keeps it impersonal, even if the dispute and/or dispute response is incredibly insulting.
Yeah
Yet another of the nimble chairs many duties.

[Razanir]

How's everyone's dish coming? My back story us giving me a real headache

Mostly well. I have a backstory. I'm just still unsure of how I'm entering the class.

[AvatarVecna]

Mostly well. I have a backstory. I'm just still unsure of how I'm entering the class.

No worries, a true Silver Key will know how to enter anything (hopefully including their own PrC), especially if it doesn't involve actually stealing anything once they've entered. :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Mostly well. I have a backstory. I'm just still unsure of how I'm entering the class.

Good luck. You aren't alone

[Heliomance]

So I'm having a look through 3.0 classes, and I've found some gloriously terrible potential SIs. My favourite so far is the Great Rift Skyguard, a class all about riding a hippogriff that neither requires you to have a hippogriff nor grants you one.

[Venger]

So I'm having a look through 3.0 classes, and I've found some gloriously terrible potential SIs. My favourite so far is the Great Rift Skyguard, a class all about riding a hippogriff that neither requires you to have a hippogriff nor grants you one.

What in the nine hells is this? I've never even heard of this one before. It's worse than silver key. But only must we be dwarves we must be a specific kind of dwarf

I love how the signature ability is worse than attacking normally in every way. And is a standard. I'm getting ootbi ptsd flashbacks

[dysprosium]

Let me preface by saying that when I started on these contests, Kuulvheysoon was the Chairman here. Compared to what Amphetryon and Heliomance have both said, it would seem that Kuulveheysoon had a laissez faire style of Chairing, that is he let whatever the chef put for entry or dispute out there and let the chips fall as they may. But back then there were also plenty of rounds that had in excess of twenty entries each. Trying to filter them could have been a nightmare in and of itself.

I can cite examples of this attitude. I can ask our current and previous Chair if they would have allowed Sentrosi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084519&postcount=279) into the contest itself? It was the Thrall of Orcus with the Chicken Infested flaw from Dragon Magazine. Clearly it violated the rules with having a Dragon Magazine item being not only in the entry but being one of the central features of it. (Fun fact: I was the only judge that round to give it a score.)

From what Amphetryon and Heliomance have both said they probably would have put the kibosh on it by not posting the entry (and subsequently preventing the thread from its own chaos of illegal builds possibly scoring higher than legal builds as well as other issues).

That round also had an entry that actually sacrificed Kuulvheysoon on an altar to Orcus that some (including myself) found offensive, in poor taste and could have violated Forum rules. That build was subsequently retracted by the (now banned) entrant. Would I imagine correctly that Amphetryon and Heliomance would have squashed that one as well?

My point is this: I can understand the Chairman trying to guide chefs from entering things that are just going to have issues. When I was Chairman for Zinc Saucier I tried to do the same thing with certain entrants but when the entry was final, I posted it as is and let the chips fall where they may. There were builds with issues that would get poor scores. There were in thread rants. There were out of thread concerns I had to address.

Sometimes people need to be embarrassed (for lack of a better word) to get some kind of wake up call. Some people are just going to complain no matter what you (or anyone else) are going to do. This is a public forum that is supposed to allow everyone.

As for this ingredient. Ugh. I've looked at it before this round and I have had no inspirations come from it. I can't say that I would be able to enter.

[Razanir]

Back to the drawing board. Oriental Adventures isn't allowed.

[dysprosium]

Oriental Adventures is allowed. Shiba Protector was an ingredient two rounds ago.

Just make note of any changes made from Dragon Magazine 318.

[Venger]

Back to the drawing board. Oriental Adventures isn't allowed.

Rokugan is not allowed. Oa is fine. As mentioned check the Dragon 318 update

[Amphetryon]

Rokugan is not allowed. Oa is fine. As mentioned check the Dragon 318 update

Some judges may consider it 'cross-setting,' particularly with a setting-specific SI, though.

[Venger]

Let me preface by saying that when I started on these contests, Kuulvheysoon was the Chairman here. Compared to what Amphetryon and Heliomance have both said, it would seem that Kuulveheysoon had a laissez faire style of Chairing, that is he let whatever the chef put for entry or dispute out there and let the chips fall as they may. But back then there were also plenty of rounds that had in excess of twenty entries each. Trying to filter them could have been a nightmare in and of itself.

I can cite examples of this attitude. I can ask our current and previous Chair if they would have allowed Sentrosi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084519&postcount=279) into the contest itself? It was the Thrall of Orcus with the Chicken Infested flaw from Dragon Magazine. Clearly it violated the rules with having a Dragon Magazine item being not only in the entry but being one of the central features of it. (Fun fact: I was the only judge that round to give it a score.)

From what Amphetryon and Heliomance have both said they probably would have put the kibosh on it by not posting the entry (and subsequently preventing the thread from its own chaos of illegal builds possibly scoring higher than legal builds as well as other issues).

That round also had an entry that actually sacrificed Kuulvheysoon on an altar to Orcus that some (including myself) found offensive, in poor taste and could have violated Forum rules. That build was subsequently retracted by the (now banned) entrant. Would I imagine correctly that Amphetryon and Heliomance would have squashed that one as well?

My point is this: I can understand the Chairman trying to guide chefs from entering things that are just going to have issues. When I was Chairman for Zinc Saucier I tried to do the same thing with certain entrants but when the entry was final, I posted it as is and let the chips fall where they may. There were builds with issues that would get poor scores. There were in thread rants. There were out of thread concerns I had to address.

Sometimes people need to be embarrassed (for lack of a better word) to get some kind of wake up call. Some people are just going to complain no matter what you (or anyone else) are going to do. This is a public forum that is supposed to allow everyone.

As for this ingredient. Ugh. I've looked at it before this round and I have had no inspirations come from it. I can't say that I would be able to enter.
Right. That was his style of chairing. Since he didn't have to chair like amph and Heliomance they don't have to chair like him either.


Right the forum is public but there are still rules. Just like the contest. And that's besides the point

Heliomance doesn't have to let samduke into the contest if he had repeatedly been hostile. Nor should she.

Some judges may consider it 'cross-setting,' particularly with a setting-specific SI, though.

Yeah there is that. Asian key could be neat though

[dysprosium]

Right. That was his style of chairing. Since he didn't have to chair like amph and Heliomance they don't have to chair like him either.

Right the forum is public but there are still rules. Just like the contest. And that's besides the point

Heliomance doesn't have to let samduke into the contest if he had repeatedly been hostile. Nor should she.

I'm not saying that anyone person has to be Chairman like anyone else. That wasn't my point. I was just posting what my experiences were and asking what previous (and current) would have done.

My point was that if the Chairman can edit entries or refuse to post certain entries/disputes, then previous rounds could have had less drama.

Hostility should be reported to allow the mods to come down and make judgment. If someone is hostile to one person, chances are that person is most likely hostile to others.

If Heliomance bans certain people from entering a contest, then those people have a legitimate beef to take to the mods. And that is something that I would think none of us want.

[Venger]

I'm not saying that anyone person has to be Chairman like anyone else. That wasn't my point. I was just posting what my experiences were and asking what previous (and current) would have done.

My point was that if the Chairman can edit entries or refuse to post certain entries/disputes, then previous rounds could have had less drama.

Hostility should be reported to allow the mods to come down and make judgment. If someone is hostile to one person, chances are that person is most likely hostile to others.

If Heliomance bans certain people from entering a contest, then those people have a legitimate beef to take to the mods. And that is something that I would think none of us want.
Fair enough. That is and historically has been one is the chairs powers.

Hopefully it'll sort itself out. From the sound of it samduke has banned himself from the contest by boycotting it so it seems like we're all set.

[Heliomance]

Fair enough. That is and historically has been one is the chairs powers.

Really? I wasn't aware of any precedent for banning people from the contest.

[Venger]

Really? I wasn't aware of any precedent for banning people from the contest.

Oh Im sorry. I meant not posting builds and disputes. To my knowledge there isn't a precedent for bans but that's no reason you ought to have to grin and bear it. I disagree with dysprosium and think you've been more than fair in putting up with samduke this long

[Deadline]

Oh Im sorry. I meant not posting builds and disputes. To my knowledge there isn't a precedent for bans but that's no reason you ought to have to grin and bear it. I disagree with dysprosium and think you've been more than fair in putting up with samduke this long

Heliomance isn't a mod. Any banning (even if it's just from the contest) seems like it should involve the mods, otherwise we run into what dysprosium was suggesting, that the contest could suffer because of the actions of the chair.

[Venger]

Heliomance isn't a mod. Any banning (even if it's just from the contest) seems like it should involve the mods, otherwise we run into what dysprosium was suggesting, that the contest could suffer because of the actions of the chair.

Yeah it would probably be a good idea to ask.

[samduke]

To clarify, what has happened here is that samduke submitted a build with no explanatory notes whatsoever. I queried whether this had been intentional, and pointed out that, without notes similar to those included by pretty much everyone else, it was likely to score extremely poorly. In response to that, he sent me a build with some cursory notes, and informed me that he would be calling for a new chair.

This is not the first time I have had trouble with samduke. He frequently submits poor-quality and/or unclear entries, and when I attempt to clarify (my sole motive being to try to help him improve his entries and thus his score), he consistently responds with aggression. He has repeatedly threatened to withdraw and/or suggested that I am an incompetent chair and should stand down, usually when he submits incomprehensible disputes which I refused to post until I actually understood what the dispute is about.

I had been considering simply not posting any more of his entries if this pattern of behaviour continued, and after this latest example I am strongly inclined to go ahead and do so.

you have been reported as this statement is flaming, and to withhold an entry on an personal basis goes directly to why I called for a new chair.
you can submit to be judged what I submit, regardless of style or how you feel it should be,

[Sian]

not really ... as long as the chair is running the party, its the chair that can decide who's allowed to enter the joint ... just as people running PbP can say they don't want to play with certain persons for reasons without elaborating (although they really should do so) ... there is no god-given right to be part of every crook and nanny of the forum, just as there's no god-given right to be part of the forum in the first place.

Banned might be a harsh term for it, but true nonetheless as far as i'd call it, and would boil down to a question of schematics. Just as the Admins/Mods can decide who's allowed/not allowed on the forums, so should the chair for any given competition thread

[Venger]

not really ... as long as the chair is running the party, its the chair that can decide who's allowed to enter the joint ... just as people running PbP can say they don't want to play with certain persons for reasons without elaborating (although they really should do so) ... there is no god-given right to be part of every crook and nanny of the forum, just as there's no god-given right to be part of the forum in the first place.

Banned might be a harsh term for it, but true nonetheless as far as i'd call it, and would boil down to a question of schematics. Just as the Admins/Mods can decide who's allowed/not allowed on the forums, so should the chair for any given competition thread

Yeah this is how it works as far as I know also. This is the chairs competition after all

[Vaz]

If a particular member is blocked by PM for being insulting/rude over private message, does that not prevent someone from being contact via PM, there by rendering this 'argument' null and void.

I'm tentatively down to play, work has slowed down again and i'm bacl in country with access to my books again.

[Deadline]

You know what? I think I'm going to try and judge this one. I like the build I've sketched out and think it could do well, but the ingredient doesn't really inspire me, and it seems that we need judges more than we need contestants.

Judging criteria:

I'm going with the rather standard 3 point BASELINE in each category, adjusted up or down based on your dish choices. I'm going to judge dishes with the same sort of eye I would GM for them.

Keep in mind that multiclassing penalties are a thing that exist in the RAW, so they will be factored into my judging.

You may find a number of commonalities with other judges' criteria here, and that's because I'm a terrible, terrible plagiarist.

Originality


What is it that you've chosen for your dish? Is it surprising, does it do things I haven't seen before? Did you use something completely off-the-wall or unexpected? Did you use a well known trick in a new or different way? All of these things will generally warrant an increase to your score. Well known tricks (I dont' care if you invented it 2 years ago, it's still a 2 year old trick), expected elements, using a well-known build, or using a build very similar to the example build for the SI will generally warrant a decrease in score. Using expected elements in your dish will generally warrant a decrease in score, unless those elements are required by the SI.

All of that said, the general rule of thumb for scoring well in this category is "do something new or fresh with your approach".

And now for the plagiarism. I liked this "Baseline build" section so much, I'm stealing it. Word for word.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that steers clear of known cheese and standard build elements, but doesn't necessarily make me sit up and go "wow." Builds that involve new combinations or focus on unexpected elements will score higher here, while builds that utilize known cheese or that are pretty much stock builds will score lower.


Power


When shooting for power, the main focus is on how well you perform your intended role, how versatile you are with your various tricks, how solid your power is from 1-20, and what happens to you if some or all of your tricks are rendered irrelevant.

Spells are not the only measure of power, and perhaps more importantly, I'll be looking at your dish over its various level breakpoints to determine power. If you can't punch a hole in a wet paper bag from levels 1-19 but gain the power of a 20th level wizard at 20th level, you may get less of an increase than someone who had a solid power curve all the way to 20, assuming you both ended in a similar level of power at 20. As I said earlier, power will be a function of how well you perform your intended role. What tricks are you throwing out, how potent are they, and how do you handle hard counters to your tricks?

WBL Item dependent power will generally mean a decrease here. Everyone gets better with items, I'm interested in what your dish can do without them. That said, if you want to point out where a specific item would enhance one of your tricks beyond the obvious, feel free to point it out. It's not going to be worth anything on its own, but it could be the favorable last straw to tip something in your favor.

More plagiarism! Word for word save for an extra sentence at the end.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that can meaningfully contribute to a party in most CR-appropriate encounters. Builds that can't, either because their overall power is too low or because they only function in very specific situations, will score lower here. Builds that are particularly proficient or useful, or that can meaningfully contribute even in over-CR'd encounters, will score higher. Builds that maintain a solid power curve over their 1-20 progression will score higher here.


Elegance


[Citation Needed] - Seriously, don't make me dig through books or guess at what minute detail you used from some obscure source. At the very least, please indicate what came from where. I'm generally familiar with the Completes, Core/SRD, and the Spell Compendium. Beyond that, it would be nice to have an indicator that "Black Blood of the Earth" is a feat from the Complete Guide to Big Trouble in Little China. Especially if this competition churns out 20+ entrants.

Like other judges, I'm not a huge fan of smashing multiple setting specific material together, UNLESS we are talking about something in the Planescape setting. Basically, if it's an obvious power grab that slaps the setting material in the face, you'll probably get points in power, but lose points here.

Did you qualify for everything you took? Does everything flow together well? Did you avoid random dips? Does your fluff justify anything that needs to be justified? These will all generally get you an increase.

Alignment shift shenanigans may result in a decrease here.

Entering the SI as early as possible is generally looked favorably upon. When you enter the SI may result in a score modification.

Your presentation is important here. Is everything clean and easy to read? Did you keep your fluff skirt length (this is not a prose contest)?

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. I'm judging these entries with the same eyes I'd use if I were GMing. So heavy cheese and questionable tricks may score points in originality and power, but those same tactics may cost you here. Since it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, I'll go on the record as being one of those people who believe that when you don't meet the prerequisites of X, you no longer benefit from X. Feats, prestige classes, etc. And don't try to get smug and ask me what happens to Dragon Disciples with the capstone, I'll do the same thing I'd do at my table - tell you they still work fine and throw a book at your head.

That said, I'm not opposed to your dish being awesome, just to questionable interpretations of the rules. Pure RAW leaves a hilariously unplayable game, so breaking your character with RAW will cost you here (and remember that power can only go to a maximum of 5). As time goes on, I'll try to list out in my future criteria any things that come up in which I'll side against, but given the enormous amount of options out there, I'll only be able to add to this list as I come across them.

Plagiarism Parrot says that this baseline build paragraph is awesome! Raaawwwk!

BASELINE BUILD: A build that you can pick up and walk over to almost any table, and it won't raise any eyebrows. Builds that are DM-dependent or questionable rules-wise will score lower here, as will builds that are clunky and messy. Builds that are a thing of beauty will score higher here - ones that make even the stuffiest DM sit up and say, hey, that's awesome, I'd love to have you in our group.


Use of Secret Ingredient


First and foremost, if you don't qualify for the SI, you get a 1 here (1 is the minimum score in a category, right?). Make sure your dish qualifies for the SI. Also, given the nature of this contest and its rules, I'm fairly certain I'd be justified in giving you a 1 if you use no levels of the SI. If you want to submit a dish that mimics the SI, the Zinc Saucier competition is a few threads down.

Using less than the full 10 levels of the SI will usually result in a decrease. Exceptions can be made here, but the dish had better really represent the SI.

For the most part, the way to score high here is to make sure your dish really embodies the SI. Have you used all parts of the SI to good effect? Did you really use the SI's abilities, or just "get" them? As an example, Talon of Tiamat gained an immunity to a chosen element at a certain level. Had that been the SI, did you find a way to use that other than, "I took immunity to fire because it's the most common element."? Finding a way to showcase all parts of the SI in an interesting manner will be the path to scoring highly here. Make the SI the focus of your dish, and enhance it. If you overpower the SI with abilities or features from other elements, I'm going to ask the question, "Why did you use the SI, instead of more of that?" That question will cost you points.

Be sure to read the fluff for the SI, because that will be guiding my judgment when I look at these entries. Does your dish feel like the SI?

Plagiarizers gonna plagiarize.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that manages to use the secret ingredient without crying out to me, "HEY, this is only here because of a stupid contest, OK!" Builds that utilize all of the SI's abilities to good effect, and who really sell the idea that only the SI would have worked here, will score higher. Builds that don't really get any use out of the class features or pre-reqs, or that would really obviously just do better with another option, will score lower.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Not got anything down on virtual paper, yet, but I'm liking what I have so far.


Silver Key's a tricky SI to work with, but hopefully I've covered for its downsides.

[Venger]

You know what? I think I'm going to try and judge this one. I like the build I've sketched out and think it could do well, but the ingredient doesn't really inspire me, and it seems that we need judges more than we need contestants.

Judging criteria:

I'm going with the rather standard 3 point BASELINE in each category, adjusted up or down based on your dish choices. I'm going to judge dishes with the same sort of eye I would GM for them.

Keep in mind that multiclassing penalties are a thing that exist in the RAW, so they will be factored into my judging.

You may find a number of commonalities with other judges' criteria here, and that's because I'm a terrible, terrible plagiarist.

Originality


What is it that you've chosen for your dish? Is it surprising, does it do things I haven't seen before? Did you use something completely off-the-wall or unexpected? Did you use a well known trick in a new or different way? All of these things will generally warrant an increase to your score. Well known tricks (I dont' care if you invented it 2 years ago, it's still a 2 year old trick), expected elements, using a well-known build, or using a build very similar to the example build for the SI will generally warrant a decrease in score. Using expected elements in your dish will generally warrant a decrease in score, unless those elements are required by the SI.

All of that said, the general rule of thumb for scoring well in this category is "do something new or fresh with your approach".

And now for the plagiarism. I liked this "Baseline build" section so much, I'm stealing it. Word for word.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that steers clear of known cheese and standard build elements, but doesn't necessarily make me sit up and go "wow." Builds that involve new combinations or focus on unexpected elements will score higher here, while builds that utilize known cheese or that are pretty much stock builds will score lower.


Power


When shooting for power, the main focus is on how well you perform your intended role, how versatile you are with your various tricks, how solid your power is from 1-20, and what happens to you if some or all of your tricks are rendered irrelevant.

Spells are not the only measure of power, and perhaps more importantly, I'll be looking at your dish over its various level breakpoints to determine power. If you can't punch a hole in a wet paper bag from levels 1-19 but gain the power of a 20th level wizard at 20th level, you may get less of an increase than someone who had a solid power curve all the way to 20, assuming you both ended in a similar level of power at 20. As I said earlier, power will be a function of how well you perform your intended role. What tricks are you throwing out, how potent are they, and how do you handle hard counters to your tricks?

WBL Item dependent power will generally mean a decrease here. Everyone gets better with items, I'm interested in what your dish can do without them. That said, if you want to point out where a specific item would enhance one of your tricks beyond the obvious, feel free to point it out. It's not going to be worth anything on its own, but it could be the favorable last straw to tip something in your favor.

More plagiarism! Word for word save for an extra sentence at the end.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that can meaningfully contribute to a party in most CR-appropriate encounters. Builds that can't, either because their overall power is too low or because they only function in very specific situations, will score lower here. Builds that are particularly proficient or useful, or that can meaningfully contribute even in over-CR'd encounters, will score higher. Builds that maintain a solid power curve over their 1-20 progression will score higher here.


Elegance


[Citation Needed] - Seriously, don't make me dig through books or guess at what minute detail you used from some obscure source. At the very least, please indicate what came from where. I'm generally familiar with the Completes, Core/SRD, and the Spell Compendium. Beyond that, it would be nice to have an indicator that "Black Blood of the Earth" is a feat from the Complete Guide to Big Trouble in Little China. Especially if this competition churns out 20+ entrants.

Like other judges, I'm not a huge fan of smashing multiple setting specific material together, UNLESS we are talking about something in the Planescape setting. Basically, if it's an obvious power grab that slaps the setting material in the face, you'll probably get points in power, but lose points here.

Did you qualify for everything you took? Does everything flow together well? Did you avoid random dips? Does your fluff justify anything that needs to be justified? These will all generally get you an increase.

Alignment shift shenanigans may result in a decrease here.

Entering the SI as early as possible is generally looked favorably upon. When you enter the SI may result in a score modification.

Your presentation is important here. Is everything clean and easy to read? Did you keep your fluff skirt length (this is not a prose contest)?

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. I'm judging these entries with the same eyes I'd use if I were GMing. So heavy cheese and questionable tricks may score points in originality and power, but those same tactics may cost you here. Since it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, I'll go on the record as being one of those people who believe that when you don't meet the prerequisites of X, you no longer benefit from X. Feats, prestige classes, etc. And don't try to get smug and ask me what happens to Dragon Disciples with the capstone, I'll do the same thing I'd do at my table - tell you they still work fine and throw a book at your head.

That said, I'm not opposed to your dish being awesome, just to questionable interpretations of the rules. Pure RAW leaves a hilariously unplayable game, so breaking your character with RAW will cost you here (and remember that power can only go to a maximum of 5). As time goes on, I'll try to list out in my future criteria any things that come up in which I'll side against, but given the enormous amount of options out there, I'll only be able to add to this list as I come across them.

Plagiarism Parrot says that this baseline build paragraph is awesome! Raaawwwk!

BASELINE BUILD: A build that you can pick up and walk over to almost any table, and it won't raise any eyebrows. Builds that are DM-dependent or questionable rules-wise will score lower here, as will builds that are clunky and messy. Builds that are a thing of beauty will score higher here - ones that make even the stuffiest DM sit up and say, hey, that's awesome, I'd love to have you in our group.


Use of Secret Ingredient


First and foremost, if you don't qualify for the SI, you get a 1 here (1 is the minimum score in a category, right?). Make sure your dish qualifies for the SI. Also, given the nature of this contest and its rules, I'm fairly certain I'd be justified in giving you a 1 if you use no levels of the SI. If you want to submit a dish that mimics the SI, the Zinc Saucier competition is a few threads down.

Using less than the full 10 levels of the SI will usually result in a decrease. Exceptions can be made here, but the dish had better really represent the SI.

For the most part, the way to score high here is to make sure your dish really embodies the SI. Have you used all parts of the SI to good effect? Did you really use the SI's abilities, or just "get" them? As an example, Talon of Tiamat gained an immunity to a chosen element at a certain level. Had that been the SI, did you find a way to use that other than, "I took immunity to fire because it's the most common element."? Finding a way to showcase all parts of the SI in an interesting manner will be the path to scoring highly here. Make the SI the focus of your dish, and enhance it. If you overpower the SI with abilities or features from other elements, I'm going to ask the question, "Why did you use the SI, instead of more of that?" That question will cost you points.

Be sure to read the fluff for the SI, because that will be guiding my judgment when I look at these entries. Does your dish feel like the SI?

Plagiarizers gonna plagiarize.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that manages to use the secret ingredient without crying out to me, "HEY, this is only here because of a stupid contest, OK!" Builds that utilize all of the SI's abilities to good effect, and who really sell the idea that only the SI would have worked here, will score higher. Builds that don't really get any use out of the class features or pre-reqs, or that would really obviously just do better with another option, will score lower.


Very thorough. Thanks for judging. Just to be clear something from a setting book isn't automatically consisted cross setting in your eyes right?

For example if I had an oriental adventures character and took eberrons education feat would you penalize me or not? Is not really setting specific it just happens to be in that book

Not got anything down on virtual paper, yet, but I'm liking what I have so far.


Silver Key's a tricky SI to work with, but hopefully I've covered for its downsides.

You have? You're a cleverer man than I am

[Sgt. Cookie]

HOPEFULLY being the keyword there. It's all theoretical for the moment. But, in a couple of days, I'll have the time to build it and do some testing.

[Curmudgeon]

For example if I had an oriental adventures character and took eberrons education feat would you penalize me or not? Is not really setting specific it just happens to be in that book
Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52) is categorized as a [General] feat. It's the most recent feat with that name, and supersedes the [Regional] feat in Player's Guide to Faerûn.

I can comment on the RAW, but not an individual judge's preferences.

[Venger]

Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52) is categorized as a [General] feat. It's the most recent feat with that name, and supersedes the [Regional] feat in Player's Guide to Faerûn.

I can comment on the RAW, but not an individual judge's preferences.

Right. Thank you. I was asking to get his opinion which may well be against raw as is often the case with judges who deduct for"cross setting" stuff. I want to know how he's using the term since I've seen it used to deduct for non regIonal feats.

[Troacctid]

Education is basically guaranteed not to be cross-setting in this round, since Silver Key is an Eberron prestige class.

[Venger]

Education is basically guaranteed not to be cross-setting in this round, since Silver Key is an Eberron prestige class.

Right. I know that. It was just an example since its a feat that has nothing to do with eberron but happens to be in an eberron book

[Razanir]

Silver Key's a tricky SI to work with, but hopefully I've covered for its downsides.

I don't know optimization as well. My goal this contest is a lot of flavor, while still doing some optimization. I know [REDACTED], [REDACTED], and [REDACTED] will make an amazing combo. My issue is if I stay in [REDACTED] or go [REDACTED] instead.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I know the feeling. I was I had [REDACTED] of [REDACTED] in my build, but I'll make do. [REDACTED] is really my cornerstone, though. It's [REDACTED] abilities cover the Silver Key's shortfalls quite nicely. My [REDACTED] is that [REDACTED], [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] [REDACTED] all [REDACTED] together.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm having flashbacks to Paranoia...

[Razanir]

I decided to go [REDACTED], even though the build won't [REDACTED] as well, because [REDACTED] will still help there. Combined with [REDACTED] and [REDACTED], it'll be Zinc Saucier worthy.

[Deadline]

Very thorough. Thanks for judging. Just to be clear something from a setting book isn't automatically consisted cross setting in your eyes right?

For example if I had an oriental adventures character and took eberrons education feat would you penalize me or not? Is not really setting specific it just happens to be in that book

For reference, my criteria hasn't really changed since the first time I judged (I've judged ... 3 times? Cipher Adept, Darkrunner, and Acolyte of the Ego - see my sig which links to my judging posts if you want to see how I came down on certain things). I like to think I'm fair, but that's probably a matter of opinion in the subjective field of judging and feedback. Instead I will say that I feel my judgings have been consistent across the board, or at least as close to it as I can make them. Given the latest kerfuffle about equipment, I did add a note as to how I treat it, so hopefully that's clear.

To answer your question though, yeah, a thing in a setting book isn't necessarily cross-setting in another setting. In this case, Curmudgeon has it right that the [General] tag makes it freely available, but there are other feats without that tag that may be acceptable. Use your best judgement, and if you feel you need to, explain why you think it should be freely available in Eberron. I'll either agree or I won't.

I'm not totally unreasonable ... often. :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah! Even though I mention it strongly and clearly in my criteria, I'm going to mention it again because it is the most costly mistake any chef can make by my metric: I strongly penalize dishes that don't qualify for the SI. Make sure you qualify for the SI!

[Venger]

For reference, my criteria hasn't really changed since the first time I judged (I've judged ... 3 times? Cipher Adept, Darkrunner, and Acolyte of the Ego - see my sig which links to my judging posts if you want to see how I came down on certain things).

To answer your question though, yeah, a thing in a setting book isn't necessarily cross-setting in another setting. In this case, Curmudgeon has it right that the [General] tag makes it freely available, but there are other feats without that tag that may be acceptable. Use your best judgement, and if you feel you need to, explain why you think it should be freely available in Eberron. I'll either agree or I won't.

I'm not totally unreasonable ... often. :smallbiggrin:

Oh yeah! Even though I mention it strongly and clearly in my criteria, I'm going to mention it again because it is the most costly mistake any chef can make by my metric: I strongly penalize dishes that don't qualify for the SI. Make sure you qualify for the SI!

right. I just don't remember it coming up in those, which is why I thought I'd ask. okay. sounds fine.

[OMG PONIES]

So I missed a lot here. I'll add my $0.02, which I think brings us to around...$0.58?


When it comes from the chair, it can be personal, when it comes from the judges, the very existence of the chair keeps it from being a personal attack...

Really? I've mistakenly taken judging as personal attacks in the past, and I know my judging has yielded similar results.


if a submitted build is blatantly breaking contest rules, especially if nothing but a build table is provided (or something similarly minimalist), the judges will take one look at it and go "LOL WTF GTFO" by giving some single digit score total for the build (or even an across-the-board goose egg).

Point of order: 1 is the minimum score in a category as per the OP.


As I have no stake in the judging, it's purely in the interests of improving the standard of the competition as a whole.

I, for one, thank you for it.


There are a number of reasons. One is to prevent cronyism. If I am friends with someone who cooks it prevents me from giving him preferential treatment. It also prevents me from marking someone down if I grown to dislike him and not for flaws with his dish.

QFT.


Seniority is another thing is prevents. If you are new either to the board or the contest your dish can be evaluated on its own merits. The same is true if you're an iron chef veteran like piggy or ponies. This way your reputation can't spoil the judge's palate.

QFmoreT. I'm often afraid of my reputation; not all of my builds are amazing. After all, I'm not Akal Saris.


I could often spot piggy but despite his prolific he is I can't successfully spot ponies

Hmm, it's almost like he intentionally varies his formatting from round to round... :smallbiggrin:


No worries, a true Silver Key will know how to enter anything (hopefully including their own PrC), especially if it doesn't involve actually stealing anything once they've entered. :smallbiggrin:

Well played!


So I'm having a look through 3.0 classes, and I've found some gloriously terrible potential SIs. My favourite so far is the Great Rift Skyguard, a class all about riding a hippogriff that neither requires you to have a hippogriff nor grants you one.

YES PLEASE!


Heliomance doesn't have to let samduke into the contest if he had repeatedly been hostile. Nor should she.

Actually, she kinda does... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1)


Specific things you cannot do on this message board that might be allowed elsewhere:
Tell a poster to shut up or to stop posting on the current thread.

[AvatarVecna]

Really? I've mistakenly taken judging as personal attacks in the past, and I know my judging has yielded similar results.

Well, it's harder to justify something as being a personal attack when there's that layer of anonymity involved. Of course, there's always some people who take offense at things that meant no offense, and there's some people who actively look for things to be offended about. Not saying you personally are either group, just that such people are out there, and nothing's going to stop them from taking offense.


Point of order: 1 is the minimum score in a category as per the OP.

From what I recall of some of the previous rounds (which I'll admit is nowhere near as many as you've witnessed), this is a debatable point, or at least the debate has come up more than once since I started actively watching this.


Well played!

Heh, thank you.

[Heliomance]

YES PLEASE!


I was wrong. It's not a class about riding a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff, it's a class about hurling yourself off a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff with a squirrel suit. Which you then have to spend an hour repacking. Assuming you got past the 25% chance it has to break every deployment. It is a hilariously terrible class and it's definitely going to come up at some point.

[OMG PONIES]

Of course, there's always some people who take offense at things that meant no offense, and there's some people who actively look for things to be offended about. Not saying you personally are either group, just that such people are out there, and nothing's going to stop them from taking offense.

Hey, I take offense to that! :smalltongue:


From what I recall of some of the previous rounds (which I'll admit is nowhere near as many as you've witnessed), this is a debatable point, or at least the debate has come up more than once since I started actively watching this.

Indeed, there was some debate in prior rounds which led the Chairperson to specify:


Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

So it seems like my point of order needs its own point of order: the minimum score for any category is 1, with the exception of Elegance for illegal builds.


I was wrong. It's not a class about riding a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff, it's a class about hurling yourself off a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff with a squirrel suit. Which you then have to spend an hour repacking. Assuming you got past the 25% chance it has to break every deployment. It is a hilariously terrible class and it's definitely going to come up at some point.

You had me at hello.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thumb/9/96/TanookiMario_SMB3.jpg/210px-TanookiMario_SMB3.jpg

[Venger]

QFT.

QFmoreT. I'm often afraid of my reputation; not all of my builds are amazing. After all, I'm not Akal Saris.
thanks.


Hmm, it's almost like he intentionally varies his formatting from round to round... :smallbiggrin:
That explains everything! I never considered that


Actually, she kinda does... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1)
uh... no?

no one is saying that he can't post in the thread, just that heliomance shouldn't be forced to allow him into the contest.


I was wrong. It's not a class about riding a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff, it's a class about hurling yourself off a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff with a squirrel suit. Which you then have to spend an hour repacking. Assuming you got past the 25% chance it has to break every deployment. It is a hilariously terrible class and it's definitely going to come up at some point.
I can't wait.

[AvatarVecna]

I was wrong. It's not a class about riding a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff, it's a class about hurling yourself off a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff with a squirrel suit. Which you then have to spend an hour repacking. Assuming you got past the 25% chance it has to break every deployment. It is a hilariously terrible class and it's definitely going to come up at some point.

1) How is it I've never seen this before?

2) How have we not used this in a round yet?

[OMG PONIES]

uh... no?

no one is saying that he can't post in the thread, just that heliomance shouldn't be forced to allow him into the contest.

Meh, to me it seems like splitting hairs at that point, but I suppose that's a question better left for the mods. I, for one, am far more interested in making horrible prestige classes workable. :smallcool:

[AvatarVecna]

By the Nine, I just looked it up. It feels like somebody (with absolutely no skill in making prestige classes) played through Battle For Wesnoth and decided they wanted a hippogriff riding dwarf PrC, and decided that using falling on your enemy by throwing yourself from the mount you don't necessarily have was the best way to emulate the in-game tactical unit.

[Heliomance]

1) How is it I've never seen this before?

2) How have we not used this in a round yet?

The best thing is that you have to be a dwarf. I mean, you expect that sort of lunacy from gnomes, but dwarves are usually more sensible!

The capstone is literally making your (potentially imaginary) hippogriff stop abruptly enough in mid air that you go flying over its head. I'm serious!

[Venger]

1) How is it I've never seen this before?

2) How have we not used this in a round yet?

It has been hiding from you out of shame.

you won't have to wonder that much longer.


Meh, to me it seems like splitting hairs at that point, but I suppose that's a question better left for the mods. I, for one, am far more interested in making horrible prestige classes workable. :smallcool:

fair enough. me too.

By the Nine, I just looked it up. It feels like somebody (with absolutely no skill in making prestige classes) played through Battle For Wesnoth and decided they wanted a hippogriff riding dwarf PrC, and decided that using falling on your enemy by throwing yourself from the mount you don't necessarily have was the best way to emulate the in-game tactical unit.
I think it's actually on par with aerial avenger.

[AvatarVecna]

It has been hiding from you out of shame.

you won't have to wonder that much longer.

I think it's actually on par with aerial avenger.

If nothing else, at the very least you have to be capable of flying to take levels in Aerial Avenger, and it does have...a couple features that don't require you to be flying. This...not only is completely useless if you don't have a hippogriff mount (which it doesn't give you), but even if you've got one, you're still a worse aerial combatant than AA. To paraphrase something that's been said already this competition: "when something make's aerial avenger look good, you know it's gotta be terrible".

[Venger]

If nothing else, at the very least you have to be capable of flying to take levels in Aerial Avenger, and it does have...a couple features that don't require you to be flying. This...not only is completely useless if you don't have a hippogriff mount (which it doesn't give you), but even if you've got one, you're still a worse aerial combatant than AA. To paraphrase something that's been said already this competition: "when something make's aerial avenger look good, you know it's gotta be terrible".

I love how it treats your pet not getting bigger and meaner as a feature and not a bug.

[Heliomance]

If nothing else, at the very least you have to be capable of flying to take levels in Aerial Avenger, and it does have...a couple features that don't require you to be flying. This...not only is completely useless if you don't have a hippogriff mount (which it doesn't give you), but even if you've got one, you're still a worse aerial combatant than AA. To paraphrase something that's been said already this competition: "when something make's aerial avenger look good, you know it's gotta be terrible".

Be fair - only Hippogriff Steed, Skyhook, and Skyguard Catapult actually require your mount to be a hippogriff. Axes from the Sky doesn't even need you to be in the air!

[AvatarVecna]

Be fair - only Hippogriff Steed, Skyhook, and Skyguard Catapult actually require your mount to be a hippogriff. Axes from the Sky doesn't even need you to be in the air!

But it requires higher ground, and the fluff requires leaping from the saddle. Getting both of those things so that you avoid the Elegance penalty (or so that a IRL DM won't complain) will require a flying mount.

[Venger]

But it requires higher ground, and the fluff requires leaping from the saddle. Getting both of those things so that you avoid the Elegance penalty (or so that a IRL DM won't complain) will require a flying mount.

uhhhh just stand on your saddle. then leap from it. there's your higher ground.

[AvatarVecna]

uhhhh just stand on your saddle. then leap from it. there's your higher ground.

But you're a short dwarf person; standing on your saddle is only higher ground against a Medium target.

EDIT: Alright, I'll grant that not every single class feature requires you to be riding a flying mount, but that hardly fixes the incredibly significant problems each of these class features poses.

[Venger]

But you're a short dwarf person; standing on your saddle is only higher ground against a Medium target.

EDIT: Alright, I'll grant that not every single class feature requires you to be riding a flying mount, but that hardly fixes the incredibly significant problems each of these class features poses.

you could easily be on higher ground due to the size of a saddle large enough to fit a hippogriff. assuming maximum height of 4'5", you could easily bonk medium enemies or the occasional small large. just whip out reach rules and strike from above or... something.

yeah the features are all hideous.

[Razanir]

Is it sad that I already have an idea for the hippogriff challenge?

[WhamBamSam]

I was wrong. It's not a class about riding a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff, it's a class about hurling yourself off a (potentially imaginary) hippogriff with a squirrel suit. Which you then have to spend an hour repacking. Assuming you got past the 25% chance it has to break every deployment. It is a hilariously terrible class and it's definitely going to come up at some point.
You had me at hello.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thumb/9/96/TanookiMario_SMB3.jpg/210px-TanookiMario_SMB3.jpgI too, am actually rather giddy with anticipation.


If nothing else, at the very least you have to be capable of flying to take levels in Aerial Avenger, and it does have...a couple features that don't require you to be flying. This...not only is completely useless if you don't have a hippogriff mount (which it doesn't give you), but even if you've got one, you're still a worse aerial combatant than AA. To paraphrase something that's been said already this competition: "when something make's aerial avenger look good, you know it's gotta be terrible".At least Great Rift Skyguard is interesting though. It does a dumb thing, but at least it does a thing. Aerial Avenger is as bad or nearly so while simultaneously being extremely dull. Nothing it does is all that unique.

I'm really going to try to judge this time. I'll get my criteria in order sometime tonight.

[Razanir]

I too, am actually rather giddy with anticipation.

There's a ToB build I made a while ago that optimized Jump and Tumble. I feel like that would go hilariously well with skydiving off an imaginary hippogriff.

[WhamBamSam]

There's a ToB build I made a while ago that optimized Jump and Tumble. I feel like that would go hilariously well with skydiving off an imaginary hippogriff.I'm not sure exactly how jump and tumble help, actually. For all the faults of the skydiving abilities, they do at least keep you from taking falling damage without skill checks (except for Skyguard Catapult, which might or might not actually allow you to mitigate the half damage, and at that point you're level 15+ and are making the checks to reduce falling damage trivially with just skill ranks anyhow).

One of the things that fascinates me most about this class is that, despite its absurd degree of specialization, still manages to have the Monk problem that almost none of the features really synergize together. You can't use your bonus Mounted Combat feat with any of the class feature attacks because you're no longer mounted when you use them. You can't use Drogue Charge when you're on the ground after using Axes From the Sky/Fly-By Attack, because your Drogue Wing has spent itself and needs an hour to recuperate (unless you can wear two at once, Races of Faerun isn't really clear). Glide for Distance only works with Axes From the Sky/Drogue Charge if you're attacking enemies that are relatively tall (there's also the weird dysfunction of the drogue wing boosting you up more or less based on your enemy's height on a Drogue Charge, but that's only tangentially related).

But I'll be honest, I've pretty much fallen in love at first sight with this weird travesty of a class. The imaginary hippogriff PrC is now up there almost to where Beast Heart Adept, a class which can grant non-imaginary hippogriffs (or at least as non-imaginary as hippogriffs or indeed anything in D&D get, which is to say, not very), sits. Is it good? Hell no. Is it dumb? Hell yeah. But the image of a dwarf in a flying squirrel suit plummeting to earth screaming bloody murder as the wind sprays a mist of ale, spit, sweat, and vomit from his beard is just too appealing. It's our obligation, as Iron Chefs, to make it good.



Back on topic for this round, here's some judging criteria.

Originality
Start from a baseline score of 3.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on whether the classes and such you used were things I expected and whether they were used by other entrants. Known cheese or standard handbook fare will see a deduction here. Since there are only so many ways to meet a dwarf prereq, and the SI is really trying to steer you into the vanilla Hill Dwarf with the House Kundarak/Mark of Warding stuff, I'm not going to get on your case about race choices. Similarly, there are only a few ways to meet the Trap Sense requirement, especially if you're trying to enter as early as possible, so I won't be penalizing for Rogue or Barbarian entry.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty to a build doing something interesting or something we've all seen it before respectively. You can fill a common niche without incurring my wrath, but I'd like to see a new spin on it. Cool factor in your crunch may see a bonus here.

Up to a 0.25 point bonus if I find your fluff to be particularly excellent.

PowerStart from a baseline score of 3

Up to 0.75 point of bonus or penalty based on how beneficial or harmful the SI is to your build. A 0 is a hypothetical build which isn't especially helped or hindered by having Silver Key in it (though given the specialized nature of the SI, that seems unlikely).

Up to 1.25 points of bonus or penalty for how well you do the things that you do. For example, if you're a front line fighter, how good are you at hurting things? If you're a caster, do you lose a lot of caster levels? Are your tricks easy to shut down and can you function if you can't go with your usual MO?

EleganceStart from a baseline score of 3.

Each failure to qualify for a non-SI class or feat results in a 0.5 point deduction. Qualifying for all such things gets you a bonus of 0.5.

Up to 1 point of penalty for questionable rules interpretations and for any cheese stinky enough to make it onto my personal ban list (note that I'm pretty cheese tolerant, in general). Avoidance of such things gets you a bonus of 0.5.

Up to 1 point of bonus or penalty based on the overall flow of the build and how well everything fits together. A clean, flowing progression will score more points, whereas something that feels awkward may be penalized. As with cheese, I'm not going to try to be especially punitive toward dipping, unless you're really asking for it. Note that I try not to reward "shameless elegance grabs" any moreso than I will "shameless originality grabs." For example, I may consider 2/3/5/10 more elegant than 5/5/10 depending on circumstances.

I'll assign a 0.25 point penalty for incurring multiclass penalties that can't be easily resolved by rearranging levels. They're a stupid, stupid rule, but they are a rule.

Up to 0.5 points of bonus or penalty if the build just screams classy or is especially distasteful in a way not quantified by the above.

Use of Secret IngredientStart From a Baseline Score of 1.

Good uses of the collective prereqs, Armored Abjuration, Trap Master, Warder's Keys, Veiled Spirit, and Slippery Mind are worth 0.25 points apiece.

Good uses of Heir's Mark, Wardsense, Crafty Hands, Invisibility, Sly Soul, Cunning Body, and Master of Doors are worth 0.5 points apiece.

Any ability in which I feel you've gone "above and beyond" in your use will get an additional 0.25 point bonus (so 0.5 for the minor abilities and 0.75 for the major ones).

It's not as cool to get a 5 if everyone else did too, so due to the large number of abilities being scored separately, I'm going to be a little tougher than usual, and especially in regard to what constitutes above and beyond.

Failure to qualify for the SI will result in a -0.25 point penalty to each class ability, to a minimum of 0. So abilities that you neither use nor qualify for don't hurt you, but you need to qualify for the things you do use to get rewarded for them.

If you leave the SI early, but provide a convincing explanation as to why this is a better use of the secret ingredient (better use of the ingredient, mind, not just making your build better), then you will receive partial credit for abilities you miss.

[Venger]

Your enthusiasm frightens me. Good looking criteria. I don't have any questions or complaints. Thanks for judging

[Razanir]

I'm not sure exactly how jump and tumble help, actually. For all the faults of the skydiving abilities, they do at least keep you from taking falling damage without skill checks (except for Skyguard Catapult, which might or might not actually allow you to mitigate the half damage, and at that point you're level 15+ and are making the checks to reduce falling damage trivially with just skill ranks anyhow).

I managed to be able to jump several hundred feet in a single round with a high enough Tumble to avoid most attacks. That might go well with skydiving.

[Venger]

I managed to be able to jump several hundred feet in a single round with a high enough Tumble to avoid most attacks. That might go well with skydiving.

Were all the people watching transformed into your personal army afterwards?

That'd certainly be one way for a skyguard to protect himself

[Razanir]

Were all the people watching transformed into your personal army afterwards?

That'd certainly be one way for a skyguard to protect himself

I can't even remember how I did it any more. I never posted the build; only the results. I apparently managed to jump 300 ft as a swift action, with +24 Tumble to help dodge AoOs. Looking at the class, I'm not even sure how it'd help, but it would sure as hell be fun.

[Venger]

I can't even remember how I did it any more. I never posted the build; only the results. I apparently managed to jump 300 ft as a swift action, with +24 Tumble to help dodge AoOs. Looking at the class, I'm not even sure how it'd help, but it would sure as hell be fun.

Well best of luck when it inevitably does come up. Everyone loves a good jumplomancer (literally)

[The Viscount]

Have we discussed the cruel hilarity that this class giving you fiddly telekinesis (which seems useful because then you can unobtrusively pick locks and such without needing to use noisy tools), but then straight up tells you to use this telekinesis to manipulate a set of tools to open locks, thus looking even more conspicuous?

[Amphetryon]

Have we discussed the cruel hilarity of this class giving you fiddly telekinesis so you can pick locks without tools, but then gives you tools to pick the locks with using your telekinesis?

Better find a way to use both, or risk losing points (not the feature I referenced above as, IMO, assured to cost everyone points).

[Venger]

Have we discussed the cruel hilarity that this class giving you fiddly telekinesis (which seems useful because then you can unobtrusively pick locks and such without needing to use noisy tools), but then straight up tells you to use this telekinesis to manipulate a set of tools to open locks, thus looking even more conspicuous?

We haven't. I feel like we should.

This is the thing that takes this class from merely bad to IC-worthy.

conspicuous? I walked past three guys telekinetically picking locks today with giant clanky tools. is that not a normal thing?


Better find a way to use both, or risk losing points (not the feature I referenced above as, IMO, assured to cost everyone points).

you mean there's something else? well looks like no one's breaking any scoring records this round.

[OMG PONIES]

Oh dang, cooking time ends this Sunday? I won't have the chance to get my build idea past even quarter-baked. Perhaps I'll judge this one instead.

My Criteria
All builds will start with a base score of 12, representing 3 points in each category. Those category scores will change based on my answers to a series of questions, presented below. An answer of "Yes" will earn a +0.5 boost to that category, an answer of "No" will earn a -0.5 penalty to that category, while an ambivalent "Yes and no" will not change the score of that category at all. Thus, it is possible for a build to score anywhere between 1 and 5 points in each category. The questions are as follow:

Originality
Does the build present a compelling backstory or concept?
Does the build enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
Does the build make use of any race, class, feats, or mechanical tricks that the judge hasn't seen in use before?
Does the build avoid "known cheese" and overused optimization suggestions?

Power
Does the build utilize established power breakpoints and feat taxes for all classes and prestige classes taken?
Does the build function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers?
Does the build thrive without requiring specific magic items, templates, or other "add-ons" to qualify for anything?
Does the build contribute significantly in terms of offense, defense, and utility?

Elegance
Does the build qualify for all classes taken outside the Secret Ingredient?
Does the build qualify for all feats taken?
Does the build avoid any questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
Does the build avoid multi-class penalties and excessive dipping (defined as taking 2 or less levels in 2 or more base/prestige classes)?

Use of the Secret Ingredient
Does the build qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of all entry requirements?
Does the build complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
Does the build pair mechanical abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build in unique ways (e.g. do something not every other entry can do)?
Does the build complement the concept of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?

[Heliomance]

Given that:
1) I've only had one submission so far
2) I'm going on holiday for a week tomorrow and am uncertain as to the internet status of the cottage I'm staying in
3) Darrin has not yet finished judging the last round

I'm inclined to extend the deadline for a week.

[Venger]

Given that:
1) I've only had one submission so far
2) I'm going on holiday for a week tomorrow and am uncertain as to the internet status of the cottage I'm staying in
3) Darrin has not yet finished judging the last round

I'm inclined to extend the deadline for a week.
I would be in favor of this course of action. I've been laid low by the flu so haven't been able to finish cooking.

[Sian]

well, that'll give me time to rebuild my half-baked idea ... I had gone through the tables when my browser ate it instead of saving it, and really didn't feel like working overtime to a crappy entry in.

[daremetoidareyo]

Given that:
1) I've only had one submission so far
2) I'm going on holiday for a week tomorrow and am uncertain as to the internet status of the cottage I'm staying in
3) Darrin has not yet finished judging the last round

I'm inclined to extend the deadline for a week.

AWESOME. I had like 90% of a build done

[The Viscount]

That will give me time to reconsider build options. Sounds good to me. Hope you have a nice time on holiday.

[Deadline]

It looks like the cooking time has been extended. I'm still going to judge this one OMG_PONIES, so if you are going to cook, best hurry. :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

It looks like the cooking time has been extended. I'm still going to judge this one OMG_PONIES, so if you are going to cook, best hurry. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks a lot, deadline.

[OMG PONIES]

It looks like the cooking time has been extended. I'm still going to judge this one OMG_PONIES, so if you are going to cook, best hurry. :smallbiggrin:


Thanks a lot, deadline.

Thanks for the opening, Deadline...but my criteria have been posted. That's the closest I get to a thrown gauntlet. :smallwink: To sound less adversarial, I'll call it a commitment to my fellow optimizers.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm still hoping to judge as well. The extended cooking time puts the judging time at a slightly more awkward time for me, but it's looking like the entry pool might be smallish this time round (knock on wood).

[KrimsonNekros]

Had something mostly brewed, might have it done in time now.

[Heliomance]

Well with two days to go, I still only have two entries. Come on people! Is this ingredient really harder than Witchborn Binder?

[KrimsonNekros]

Apparently. My main problem is just being otherwisw occupied, or worn out from work.

[dysprosium]

It's a dwarf only Eberron specific prestige class. There isn't exactly a lot of wiggle room. I had absolutely no immediate inspiration though I also have had no real free time to think of anything either.

[AvatarVecna]

A dwarf-only Eberron-specific PrC focused on breaking and entering, but not stealing, don't forget.

[Amphetryon]

Well with two days to go, I still only have two entries. Come on people! Is this ingredient really harder than Witchborn Binder?

Yes. My initial idea WILL NOT FUNCTION without Flaws.

[Venger]

Well with two days to go, I still only have two entries. Come on people! Is this ingredient really harder than Witchborn Binder?

Sweet. Speaking for myself I was waiting for the weekend so I could knock it out. I like the sound of three entries. Free medal

[Sian]

in the process of building ... had a couple of issues i had to figure out the most elegant way to dogde.

[KrimsonNekros]

A dwarf-only Eberron-specific PrC focused on breaking and entering, but not stealing, don't forget.

Where is the racial restriction o.O?

[AvatarVecna]

Where is the racial restriction o.O?

It's literally a dragonmark-based Prestige Class. The dragonmarks (most of them) are only available to members of certain races. House Kunderak, which you're required to be to enter this PrC, is the dwarf-only dragonmarked house.

[Sian]

just to make sure i'm not missing out on time ... deadline in 26 hours?

[Heliomance]

Yes. My initial idea WILL NOT FUNCTION without Flaws.

Well flaws aren't forbidden, just discouraged. If you think your idea is good enough to do well despite the flaw penalty (which is no longer a flat one point per flaw) then give it a go anyway.

[Sian]

Home stretch, Fluff to go before i'm done, and I already know what it'll going to be, just need to get it writen (which is always a pain for me)

[TheifofZ]

The first time there's an Iron Chef Optimization Challenge that I'm actually both present before cooking time ends, and inspired to enter, but I show up to the kitchen far too late to get the recipe more than off the cutting board and into the oven before judging is over, and I don't even have the time to do that -anyway-.

Now I feel alittle sad.
I'm certain I'd do terribly anyway, though, as I don't do much actual Optimizing so much as hodgepodge stuff that looks cool to me. But it's the spirit of the matter.

[Venger]

putting on the finishing touches now. this is gonna be a hilarious round.

[KrimsonNekros]

I will strive to get mine done but it will likely be rather late.

scratch that. I can't focus in on this right now.

[Venger]

I will strive to get mine done but it will likely be rather late.

From the looks of things you won't be alone, if there're only two dishes in. I've been incapacitated by food poisoning so my planned day of finishing my build turned into a day of... not finishing my build. If the chair lets us turn stuff in tomorrow during the day, it'll likely be at least four of us competing.

[KrimsonNekros]

From the looks of things you won't be alone, if there're only two dishes in. I've been incapacitated by food poisoning so my planned day of finishing my build turned into a day of... not finishing my build. If the chair lets us turn stuff in tomorrow during the day, it'll likely be at least four of us competing.

If so, Hopefully i can get some focus and drive into doing it. I just haven't been feeling well recently.

[Sian]

well, i managed to finalize my dish last night so there is at least 3 dishes on the table now

[KrimsonNekros]

writeup and putting skills on the table is all i have left, and I'm just not finding the drive to finish for some reason.

[Heliomance]

I currently have three builds. If there are some almost done, I'll extend the deadline by a few hours more. Come on, people!

[Sian]

Think that there is 3 issues with the SI which all contribute to the low attendence rate.

1. Its Eberron Specific ... Can't say i've done any real counting, but my hunch is that setting specific PrCs have a lower rate of attendence than non-setting specific

2. Its Dwarven Specific, even more it ties you up in terms of available fluff due to the fact that its only a small subset of Dwarves that are able to enter it (Members of House Kundarak). This again follows the same hunch, in this case that race specific PrCs have a lower rate of attendence, as there is much less to differentiate the builds

3. Its utterly unable to act within a 'normal' combat heavy game, and only barely within a intrigue based one. It brings absolutely nothing to the table in terms of combat, and works very poorly outside of solo encounters in which the rest of the party is demoted to cheering squad for someone disarming the traps they encounter. Not helped by the fact that traps are usually met so rarely that most (if not all) DM's would have to rework their encounter setup to help the Silver Key not to become a dead weight. And when he's not dead weight chances are very high that the rest of the party would be.

[Vaz]

I had a build Stub, but tbh, it had so little to do with Silver Keys, the class itself or have any real progression that it is particularly poor. Same thing as the Shining Blade class, in that in optimization terms, the class itself penalizes you by reducing the options. The same applies here. A good SI has something which can be built off; such as things like Stone Lord, Talon of Tiamat or Slime Lord.

When a class is built around an NPC which is based around certain passive/fire and forget/spare spell slot spells and the Open Lock skill (a 20th level silver key optimizing open lock is as capable as a 1st level orc barbarian with an adamantine shuriken), in a setting where 10th level characters are epic heroes in their own right, in a challenge that's focused around a 20 level build for the most part, it's going to come unstuck. This is why I see it not just as a bad class, but a bad SI.

Just some criticisms regarding the class. For that reason, I may judge, but I'm not competing.

[Venger]

I currently have three builds. If there are some almost done, I'll extend the deadline by a few hours more. Come on, people!

Truly you are merciful. Almost done.

EDIT: and submitted. Ready for the reveal whenever you are, chair. thanks for the extension, this was a blast to cook.

[The Viscount]

While Silver Key is difficult, and I personally wasn't inspired, it's no worse in terms of its restrictive nothingness than things like Nightsong Infiltrator and Thunder Guide, and we worked pretty well with that one.

[Venger]

While Silver Key is difficult, and I personally wasn't inspired, it's no worse in terms of its restrictive nothingness than things like Nightsong Infiltrator and Thunder Guide, and we worked pretty well with that one.

I agree completely.

I think the reason people are discouraged has less to do with the mechanical class features (which admittedly are trash) and more to do with the fluff, which locks down a lot of the more straightforward paths for a character of this rough archetype.

Personally, I was super excited for this class, real life just conspired against me. but my dish is in now. there is nothing left but to await the reveal.

Also it's dwarves. And nobody likes dwarves.

I'd put this class above thunder guide in usefulness but actually below nightsong infiltrator. and that's pretty embarrassing.

[Sian]

While Silver Key is difficult, and I personally wasn't inspired, it's no worse in terms of its restrictive nothingness than things like Nightsong Infiltrator and Thunder Guide, and we worked pretty well with that one.

While it have certain similarities with Thunder Guide, both of those are way more premissive than Silver Key, Thunder guide allows you to pick from any race, and Nightsong infiltrator only asks for Evasion, mild feat tax, and skillpoints, while at the very least it actively buffs your friends in a similar (although inferior) way as DFI Bard, with its teamwork sneak attack.

[Venger]

While it have certain similarities with Thunder Guide, both of those are way more premissive than Silver Key, Thunder guide allows you to pick from any race, and Nightsong infiltrator only asks for Evasion, mild feat tax, and skillpoints, while at the very least it actively buffs your friends in a similar (although inferior) way as DFI Bard, with its teamwork sneak attack.

Very true. It's nowhere near as easy to pick up trap sense. That was my chief stumbling block with this class as well.

[Heliomance]

... Aaand I completely forgot. Mea culpa. I've had two more entries in, but I really need to go to bed now. I'll post them in the morning, promise.

[Venger]

... Aaand I completely forgot. Mea culpa. I've had two more entries in, but I really need to go to bed now. I'll post them in the morning, promise.

sounds great. can't wait to see them. all... four of them.

[Heliomance]

Incoming reveals! Sorry about the additional delay.



Aludra Giantbane

Background

Aludra Giantbane of House Kundarak
Aludra was a member of the house by blood, her family holding various positions within the house, a family of dwarven wardens living in the Razortooth Mountains. Aludra always wanted to be an adventurer but her parents forced her into the Warding Guild. Once on an expedition with her brother Alaxander they accidentaly broke into The Crypt of Sinu the Red. The entire expedition was slaughtered except for Aludra and she only survived mostly due to the training of the warding guild. it was when she returned that she was offered a position within the silver keys that she accepted her place within the guild.


Atributes

Fireblood Dwarf (dragon magic pg.7)
humanoid (dwarf, dragonblood)
medium 20 ft.
+2 Con -2 Cha

32 point buy
Str 12 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 10
level 4 Wis +1
level 8 Dex +1
level 12 Wis +1
level 16 Dex +1
level 20 Str +1

Ranger ACF'S
Champion of the Wild (CC, p 50): Lose spellcasting for bonus feats
Trap Expert (DS, p 12): Lose tracking. Gain trapfinding, and disable device as a class skill.



Classes
Classes



Level
Class/Prc
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Ranger 1
1
2
2
0
Climb 4, Handle Animal 4, Heal 4, Hide 4, Jump 4, Knowledge (A&E) 4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4, Open Lock 4, Survival 4
Education
1st favored enemy (Giant), Trapfinding, wild empathy


2nd
Ranger 2
2
3
3
0
Climb 5, Handle Animal 5, Heal 5, Hide 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (A&E) 5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5, Open Lock 5, Survival 5
Rapid Shot
Combat style (Rapid Shot)


3rd
Ranger 3
3
3
3
1
Disable Device 1, Handle Animal 6, Heal 6, Hide 6, Jump 6, Knowledge (A&E) 6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 6, Open Lock 6, Survival 6
Endurance, Skill Focus (Handle Animal)
Endurance


4th
Ranger 4
4
4
4
1
Disable Device 2, Handle Animal 7, Heal 7, Hide 7, Jump 7, Knowledge (A&E) 7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 7, Open Lock 7, Survival 7
Point Blank Shot
Animal companion, Bonus feat (Point Blank Shot)


5th
Ranger 5
5
4
4
1
Disable Device 3, Handle Animal 8, Heal 8, Hide 8, Jump 8, Knowledge (A&E) 8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 8, Open Lock 8, Survival 8
-
2nd favored enemy (Giant)


6th
Beastmaster 1
6
6
6
1
Disable Device 4cc, Handle Animal 9, Hide 9, Knowledge (A&E) 9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 9, Open Lock 9, Survival 9
Precise Shot
Animal companion, wild empathy


7th
Beastmaster 2
7
7
7
1
Disable Device 5cc, Handle Animal 10, Hide 10, Knowledge (A&E) 10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 10, Open Lock 10, Survival 10
Alertness
Alertness


8th
Deepwarden 1
8
9
7
3
Disable Device 8cc, Handle Animal 11, Hide 11, Knowledge (A&E) 11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 11, Open Lock 11cc, Survival 11
Track
Track, trap sense +1


9th
Deepwarden 2
9
10
7
4
Disable Device 11cc, Handle Animal 12, Hide 12, Knowledge (A&E) 12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 12, Open Lock 12cc, Survival 12
Midnight Dodge
Stone warden


10th
Deepwarden 3
10
10
8
4
Climb 6, Disable Device 13cc, Handle Animal 13, Hide 13, Knowledge (A&E) 13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 13, Open Lock 13cc, Survival 13
-
Animal messenger


11th
Silver Key 1
10
10
10
6
Climb 8, Disable Device 14, Handle Animal 14cc, Hide 14, Knowledge (A&E) 14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 14, Open Lock 14, Survival 14cc
-
Armored abjuration, heir’s mark, trap master +1, warder’s keys, wardsense


12th
Silver Key 2
11
10
11
7
Climb 10, Disable Device 15, Handle Animal 15cc, Hide 15, Knowledge (A&E) 15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 15, Open Lock 15, Survival 15cc
Least Dragonmark (Mark of Warding)
Crafty hands


13th
Silver Key 3
12
11
11
7
Heal 10cc, Disable Device 16, Handle Animal 16cc, Hide 16, Knowledge (A&E) 16, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 16, Open Lock 16, Survival 16cc
-
Invisibility


14th
Silver Key 4
13
11
12
8
Jump 10cc, Disable Device 17, Handle Animal 17cc, Hide 17, Knowledge (A&E) 17, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 17, Open Lock 17, Survival 17cc
-
Trap master +2


15th
Silver Key 5
13
11
12
8
Disable Device 18, Handle Animal 18cc, Hide 18, Knowledge (A&E) 18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 18, Open Lock 18, Survival 18cc, Tumble 2
Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Warding)
Sly soul


16th
Silver Key 6
14
12
13
9
Disable Device 19, Handle Animal 19cc, Hide 19, Knowledge (A&E) 19, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 19, Open Lock 19, Survival 19cc, Tumble 4
-
Cunning body


17th
Silver Key 7
15
12
13
9
Disable Device 20, Handle Animal 20cc, Hide 20, Knowledge (A&E) 20, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 20, Open Lock 20, Survival 20cc, Tumble 6
-
Trap master +3


18th
Silver Key 8
16
12
14
10
Disable Device 21, Handle Animal 21cc, Hide 21, Knowledge (A&E) 21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 21, Open Lock 21, Survival 21cc, Tumble 8
Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Warding)
Slippery mind


19th
Silver Key 9
16
13
14
10
Disable Device 22, Handle Animal 22cc, Hide 22, Knowledge (A&E) 22, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 22, Open Lock 22, Survival 22cc, Tumble 10
-
Veiled spirit


20th
Silver Key 10
17
13
15
11
Disable Device 23, Handle Animal 23cc, Hide 23, Knowledge (A&E) 23, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 23, Open Lock 23, Survival 23cc, Tumble 12
-
Master of doors, trap master +4



Write-up

Why this chef decided to use what was used and how it theoretically functions
with the spellless/trapfinding ACF's this sets the ranger more inline with the SI as the SI is geared towards trapfinding, defense and dealing with locked things
next we are useing the mark of warding to cover alot of the Si's class features that gain extra uses if you have it.

Why beastmaster first partially to add to the dish for flavor as it is built the couple of levels here would allow for the build to take something along the lines of a direwolf which would be helpfull in many situations as the build is setup primarily as ranged combat, but if tinkering with a lock or the like it certainly can go melee.
because each judge might use the inclusion of an animal companion or not, to sway how they feel the build goes , this chef did not include a stat block for an animal companion thus allowing the judges to use what ever animal companion they think works best in their opinion.
any deductions here for lack of animal companion will see a dispute.

Why deepwarden this chef felt the deepwarden adds flavor to the dish, as the deep warden directly aids the SI with track, trap sense, also aiding the previous class levels with animal messenger

the SI yes it is not taken as soon as it is possible but this was to allow more flavor into the build, helping make the abilities of the SI shine.

it is this chefs opinion that the sweetspot would fall around levels 14-16.

how each portion of the SI is used, in this cheefs opinion it should be fairly obvious.
Armored abjuration, heir’s mark, trap master +1, warder’s keys, wardsense
the greater mark of warding will slightly benefit from the heirs mark, trap master & ward sense both are aided from trapfinding and trapsense,
warders keys & Crafty hands, are used with open locks ect.
Invisibility: certainly helps to be able to use this 2/day
Sly Soul: SR 25 cant hurt
Cunning Body: auto recovery from a few interesting effects
Slippery Mind: 3 potential saves vs mind effects very nice
Veiled Spirit: bonus to hide, and resist divination effects makes this trapmaster even better
Master of Doors: make use of any magic door or portal this character comes across as though it had the specific ability to do so cant go wrong.

levels 1-5 general ranger warden
levels 6-10 beastmaster , Deepwarden
levels 11-20 see the SI yes it is not taken as soon as it is possible but this is to allow more flavor into the build, helping make the abilities of the SI shine.
it is this chefs opinion that the sweetspot would fall around levels 14-16.

[Heliomance]

Get Jinxed!


Jinx: Dark Changeling rogue5/trapsmith 5/silverkey 10

Week two of this plumb gig. With six hobgoblins and some fantastic gear from our last big score, we camp about 10 miles from the gold mine. Our shaman set a magical alarm near the trail while Garkbar lashes the horses to some trees a few hundred feat from the camp in case there were bears. We eat, stow our rations in bags and hang them from trees to keep large predators from smelling food in our tents. We go to sleep after some tentative planning on how to rob the gold caravan. That was when we were jinxed. Hadriel was the first to notice that something was wrong, his spell component pouch was missing. My wand was gone. We convened in the center of camp near the fire and then the magical alarm went off. We heard footsteps running away from us on the main path. “Hurzog! Garkbar! Get the horses!” We scramble to get our weapons together and follow the intruder and kill them. Where the hell are our crossbows? We hear shrieks of hobgoblin pain coming from the part of camp near the horses. We chase down the trail sans horses. The shaman disappearing from sight as a snare whipped him into the air. A log crashes down on Gerald. I’m shot by three crossbow bolts. Kerry is set aflame. Hadriel walked into a trap that speared him, right at face level. “Face us!” I yell. The silence doesn’t respond.
Hurzog returns with a single horse, exasperated and annoyed as well as the remains of his halberd, which had a cracked haft near the tip. “Someone killed half of the horses and released the rest. They set traps and I think Garkbar is dead. A rock smashed his head. I almost saw him, he attacked me with a short sword and ran this way. I took a good swing at him but my weapon just broke when it hit him. He ran this way” That is when I noticed my wand hanging out of Garkbar’s backpack. I am ashamed to say that a fight broke out between us outlaws. The only saving grace was that, one by one, as each of us hit each other with our weapons, our weapons broke. Swords fell out of their pommel (someone removed some screws) bowstrings snapped, spiked chains had important links pried apart so that half of the weapon flew apart, hitting nearby allies. Even Bradley, who slept in his armor, had his scale male just fall off after Hurzog punched him in the chest. After Hurzog was pummeled to near death for a theft that would have been a more useful tool in my hands during this assault, we strolled back to camp, getting hit by another set of traps that ultimately killed Hadriel. Poor bastard had a tanglefoot bag and flask of alchemist fire hit him simultaneously. A band of 8 reduced to a band of five. What monster was harrying us? No one slept. No one had breakfast because our rations were stolen. We had a 65 mile walk to the nearest town that was friendly or we could try to go to the mining town and convince them that we are different hobgoblin outcasts from who robbed them last time. We were going to die.
This trip was jinxed from the get go.

http://thesovereigninvestorcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Bear-Trap.jpg

LN Dark (ToM) Changeling Martial Wilderness Rogue 5/Trapsmith 5/Silver key 10 (although not in that order...and with way more ACFS)



STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT:18
WIS 10
CHA:8

All Stat Increases Go to Intelligence

Changeling Stats:
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against sleep and charm effects
+2 racial bonus on Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks
Changelings add Speak Language to their list of class skills for any class they adopt.
Minor Shapechange (Su): When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

Dark Template:
Speed: +10 feet to all modes of movement.
Darkvision 60'
Superior Low light Vision
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).
Resistance to cold 10
Hide +8 and Move Silently +6

This build uses a bunch of books. It is also entirely predicated on the idea that the racial emulation feat allows for the taking of both feats and prestige classes with racial pre-requisites. Further, it supposes that features of a prestige class are not lost if pre-requisites are lost, although that shouldn’t be too big of a deal. With all of those inelegant decisions in mind, this character is built for heists and ambushes and is built towards those goals. This character is not good at combat and runs away from it whenever possible. If this character cant avoid big combat through escape, they feign death. This character sets up dominoes and watches as they fall.



Core: PHB, MM1, DMG: no abbreviation included
Dungeonscape: Du
Unearthed Arcana: UA
Races of Eberron: RoE
Exemplars of Evil: EoE
Players Handbook 2: PHB2
Tome of Battle: TOB
Tome of Magic: TOM
City of Stormreach: CofSR
Dragonmarked: dmarked
Races of the Dragon: RotD
Complete Arcane: CA
Complete Champion: CC


Jinx was born a changeling. Jinx’s mother had a tryst with a dwarf from House Kundarak during a mission to collect information to rob them. The pregnancy went fine, but Jinx’s mother wound up giving birth to the boy on the plane of shadow, where she had jaunted with a magic device check for the safety of her child, as House Kundarak sent a “manhunt” to find all folks associated with the heist. The essence of the plain infiltrated the young changeling, changing them. Eventually, they left, and Jinx’s mother trained Jinx as a spy working for another dragonmarked house and the young changeling picked up the skills readily. Soon, Jinx was 14 years old and employed as a spy as well. The intrigue part of impersonating real people was not as satisfying to the young changeling as spending time in nature, flitting between the shadows of trees. And so, Jinx left that place of employment by feigning his death (he held too many secrets to ever be let go willingly) and taking security and troubleshooting jobs for the dwarves of House Kundarak. Strangely, whenever Jinx took dwarves shape, he would manifest the outlines of a dragonmark. When that dragon mark finally develops, Jinx will have a reckoning to contend with.




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Martial (UA p58) Wilderness (UA p56) Rogue: Changeling Substitution level (RoE)
+0
+0
+2
+0
Bluff 4, Craft (trapmaking) 4, Disable Device 4, Disguise 2, Handle Animal 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (arch/engineering) 4, Move Silently 4, Open Locks 4, Ride 4, Search 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Survival 4, Spot 2, Tumble 4
Dodge (bonus), Racial Emulation (RoE p.110)
Fighter Bonus feat, Social Intuition, 2 extra skill points, bonus knowledge skill (RoE p122)


2nd
Martial Wilderness Feign death (EoE p21) Rogue
+1
+0
+3
+0
Bluff 5, Craft (trapmaking) 5, Disable Device 5, Hide 5, Move Silently 5, Open Locks 5, Search 5, Sleight of Hand 5, Use Magic Device 4
Mobility (bonus)
Feign death, Bonus feat


3rd
Martial Wilderness Quick fingers Rogue(Du p12)
+2
+1
+3
+1
Craft (trapmaking) 6, Disable Device 6, Handle Animal 5, Hide 6, Move Silently 6, ride 5, Search 6, Sleight of Hand 6, Survival 5, Spot 3, Use Magic Device 6
Mark of Warding
Quick Fingers


4th
Martial Wilderness Rogue
+3
+1
+4
+1
Craft (trapmaking) 7, Disable Device 7, Disguise 4, Hide 7, Move Silently 7, Search 7, Sleight of Hand 7, Spot 5, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 7
Bonus: tumbling feint (PHB2)
Uncanny Dodge, Bonus feat


5th
Swordsage (ToB)
+3
+1
+6
+3
Craft (trapmaking) 8, disable device 8, Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Search 8, Sleight of Hand 8, Tumble 6

Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (ShadowHand)


6th
Trapsmith (Du p53)
+3
+1
+8
+3
Craft (trapmaking) 9, Disable Device 9, Hide 9, Knowledge (arch/engineering) 5, move silently 9, Search 9, Sleight of Hand 9, spot 8
Master Pickpocket (CofSR p95)
Booby Traps, Master Disarmer, Trap sense +1


7th
Silver Key (dmarked p120)
+3
+1
+10
+5
Craft (trapmaking) 10, Disable device 10, Hide 10, move silently 10, search 10, sleight of hand 10, spellcraft 2, tumble 7, UMD 8

Armored abjuration, heir's mark, trap master +1, warder's keys, wardsense


8th
Silver Key
+4
+1
+11
+6
Craft (trapmaking) 11, Disable Device 11, Hide 11, Move Silently 11, Sleight of hand 11, spellcraft 4, tumble 8, UMD 10

Crafty Hands


9th
Silver Key
+5
+2
+11
+6
Bluff 7, Craft (trapmaking) 12, Disable Device 12, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Sleight of Hand 12, Tumble 9, UMD 12
Practiced Spellcaster (CA p82)
Invisibility


10th
Trapsmith
+6
+2
+12
+6
Craft (trapmaking) 13, Disable Device 13, Hide 13, Move silently 13, Search 12, Sleight of Hand 13, Spot 11

Arrow proof, quick fingers


11th
Trapsmith
+7
+3
+12
+7
Craft (trapmaking) 14, Disable Device 14, Hide 14, Move silently 14, Search 14, Sleight of Hand 14, Spot 14

Booby traps (advanced), unweave, trap sense +2


12th
Trapsmith
+8
+3
+13
+7
Craft (alchemy) 3, Craft (trapmaking) 15, Disable Device 15, Hide 15, Move silently 15, Search 15, Sleight of Hand 15, Spot 15
Extraordinary Trapsmith (RotD p100)
Dance through danger, spell proof


13th
Trapsmith
+8
+3
+13
+7
Craft (alchemy) 5, Craft (trapmaking) 16, Disable Device 16, Hide 16, Move silently 16, Profession (lumberjack) 1, Search 16, Sleight of Hand 16, Spot 16

Avoid disaster, trap sense +3


14th
Silver Key
+9
+3
+14
+8
Craft (trapmaking) 17, Disable Device 17, Disguise 5, Hide 17, Move Silently 17, Sleight of Hand 17, Tumble 10, UMD 14

Trapmaster +2


15th
Silver Key
+9
+3
+14
+8
Craft (trapmaking) 18, Disable Device 18, Disguise 6, Hide 18, Move Silently 18, Sleight of Hand 18, Tumble 11, UMD 16
Craft Wand
Sly Soul


16th
Silver Key
+10
+4
+15
+9
Craft (trapmaking) 19, Disable Device 19, Disguise 7, Hide 19, Move Silently 19, Sleight of Hand 19, Tumble 12, UMD 18

Cunning Body


17th
Silver Key
+11
+4
+15
+9
Craft (trapmaking) 20, Disable Device 20, Disguise 8, Hide 20, Move Silently 20, Sleight of Hand 20, Tumble 12, UMD 18

Trapmaster +3


18th
Silver Key
+12
+4
+16
+10
Craft (trapmaking) 21, Disable Device 21, Disguise 9, Hide 21, Move Silently 21, Sleight of Hand 21, Tumble 13, UMD 20
Trickery Devotion (CC)
Slippery Mind


19th
Silver Key
+12
+5
+17
+11
Craft (trapmaking) 22, Disable Device 22, Disguise 10, Hide 22, Move Silently 22, Sleight of Hand 22, Tumble 14, UMD 22

Veiled Spirit


20th
Silver Key
+13
+5
+17
+11
Bluff 9, Craft (trapmaking) 23, Disable Device 23, Hide 23, Move Silently 23, Sleight of Hand 23, Tumble 15, UMD 23

Master of Doors, Trapmaster +4




Maneuvers
Child of shadow stance
1 Shadow jaunt
2 Cloak of Deception
3 Counter Charge
4 Sudden leap
5 fire repost
6 mighty throw

Trapsmith Spells
1st: Haste, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, gaseous form, knock
2nd: Stoneshape, Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere, Arcane Eye
3rd: Fabricate, wall of stone





At Level 5, Jinx is simply a very motley assembled rogue 4/swordsage 1 who can hide in plain site in the darkness. This rogue has no sneak attack, which has been traded away for fighter feats via Unearthed Arcana’s Martial Rogue ACF. In addition, this rogue is less of a city dweller and more at home in the nature. This is represented by the wilderness rogue ACF from Unearthed arcana. Wilderness rogue removes Appraise, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Gather Information from the rogue class skill list and replaces them with Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Ride, and Survival. Further, at level 1, the changeling rogue substitution level from Races of Eberron has been chosen. This grants an additional knowledge skill, (architecture and engineering), two extra skill points, and some other abilities, most notably the ability to take 10 on bluffs and sense motive checks. These features replace trapfinding.
At Level 2, Jinx trades evasion for the feign death ACF in Exemplars of Evil.

As an immediate action, you can enter a catatonic state in which you appear to be dead. While feigning death, you cannot see or feel anything, but you retain the ability to smell, hear, and otherwise follow what is going on around you.

While under the effect of this ability, you are immune to all mind-affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, ability drain, negative levels, and death effects. Attempts to resuscitate you, such as raise dead or reincarnation, automatically fail, though resurrection and true resurrection immediately end your feign death ability.
Spells and other effects that assess your current condition, such as status and deathwatch, indicate that you are dead. However, a character who succeeds on a Heal check (DC 15 + 1/2 your level + your Con modifier) can discern that you are actually alive.
You can remain in the catatonic state indefinitely, though you still require food, water, and air. Emerging from feigned death is a standard action.
At Level 3, Jinx trades trap sense for the quick fingers ACF from Dungeonscape. This allows for faster disable device checks than what is presented in the PHB.

Simple Devices @ DC 10 = 1 move action
Tricky Devices @ DC 15 = 1 standard action
Difficult Devices @ DC 20 = 1 Full round action
Wicked Devices @ DC 25+ = 1d4 rounds

Jinx has also taken a dragonmark feat at level 3. See the Backstory above.
At level 5, Jinx multiclasses into Swordsage, at initiator level 3, granting second level maneuvers. Jinx can hide and move silently like a boss. Jinx spends most of their time pickpocketing, tracking, and robbing criminals. Jinx never dives into battle and rarely engages groups that are much stronger than can be handled. Jinx is a decent scout. Jynx has concealment when he moves due to his child of night stance, and so long as he is near some sort of additional cover other than shadows, can hide in plain site. He usually just spies on a group for a bit, perhaps burgles them here and there and reports to his beat sticks at this point. He can create a firetrap 1 day via his dragonmark, and between dodge, mobility, and the withdraw combat action tries to stay away from combat. Tumbling feint is there as a last resort to be paired with a mighty throw maneuver or more running away.



Jinx has grown considerably in effectiveness since level 5. Jinx has picked up 2 levels of trap smith and 3 levels of silver key. Jinx is now their namesake. Jinx’s modus operandi is to scout out enemy encampments and ruin their mobility and supplies. First he secretly approaches any mounts and releases half of them if he feels that they will make too much commotion when killed. Then, using crafty hands ability from silver key level 2, he sabotages enemy weapons and armor while hiding 60 feet away. The DC table for weapon sabotage is located in the City of Storm Reach book on page 140. So long as the weapons and armor aren’t being handled, (making weapons fall apart on a hit is DC 20 (DC15 if a simple weapon)) Making Armor fragile (falling apart on a miss) is a DC of 25. The Quick fingers ACF helps reduce the time of these checks. Any carts or wagons have their wheels and axles disabled to fall apart after 10 minutes of use.
Then, Jinx starts setting traps along the major goat paths stomped out by the enemies. As many as there are supplies for. Jinx tries to set at least 1 trap per opponent.
Then Jinx turns invisible, casts haste on himself, and runs through the camp, making sleight of hand checks at a -10 modifier to make pickpocketing a free action, stealing anything of tactical value (especially wands, rods, and rings) as well as spears, rope, and crossbows.
Then Jinx uses the spears ropes and crossbows to make a few more traps.
Then Jinx takes 10 to climb a tree, sets an alarm on the encampment, and watches the enemies run around getting hurt. If all enemies leave the camp, he charges into the camp and sets a few more traps if possible. As Per DMG2, you can make a DC 20 Survival check to collect the supplies for boobytraps. An option that Jinx can use to macgyver themselves into a winning position.
Depending on your DM, you may be allowed to craft automatically resetting traps based on your spell list. Consider bartering: instead of making an automatic haste trap for your party, maybe you can research a few spells that will make for fun trap making (move earth comes immediately to mind). Otherwise, just make an automatically resetting trap of wall of stone to build a tower 300’ foot high so your party barbarian can put cracks in the base on one side so that it will fall under its own weight onto entire cities. Until you’re allowed to make a trap of something more fun.



Here it is! The absolute high point of the build. Invisibility up to 2 times a day, crafty hands to destroy all of your opponents non-held equipment through disable device checks made at 15+ 4+ability modifier. Sleight of hand checks made at +15 +2 (bluff synergy) + ability modifier. Hide in plain site. Shadow Jaunt, when necessary. Haste, Fabricate (mechanical traps perchance???) wall of stone for giant boulders to rig up in order to fall on opponents heads. You cast spells as a 9th level trapsmith. You can destroy peoples stuff from afar. When you do see combat, you rob the opponent blind and shadow jaunt away. Extraordinary trap smith is there to cut your boobytrapping time in half.


The rest of the silver key’s abilities don’t really jive with this build until level 10 where you get master of doors. The spell resistance is a nice ability. Actually, at level 15, you should retrain your fighter bonus feat (tumbling feint or mobility) into martial study (iron heart maneuver (doesn’t matter which). Then pick up Martial study at level 15 for iron heart surge. Unless you are working with your DM for some additional traps or spells, you are falling down on the power curve now. You don’t have the damage output of a caster, your skill set is very precise, but magic now appears in troves to spoil your mechanations. Your fort save is terrible. At level 15, Jinx just can’t keep up with direct confrontation heroes. That is…until he gets to level 20.

The ability to enter a magnificent mansion or ropetrick, rob the characters blind (they typically won’t take any precautions other than casting these spells) makes Jinx one of the scarier opponents that adventurers will never face. Other than direct theft, and some creative trapping set within the magnificent mansion, Jinx is over the hill until he can take epic feats, extra slot, extra spell, etc. At Level 18, you have trickery devotion which can be used to also set traps and pickpockets. But mostly, When Jinx meets combat at level 20, he gets hit once and plays dead.

[Heliomance]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/day-37-mere-cat.jpg


Ina the Neutral Evil Dark Changling Rogue 4 / Swordsage 1 / Spymaster 1 / Silver Key 10 / Trapsmith 3


It was such a thrill, to be infiltrading so deeply, Ina thought while she sitting in the apartment she had lived in for the last decade, with a unsuspecting Dwarven male lesser markless heir of Kundarak, masquerading as the charismatic Dwarven maid Delbra Mroranon, charismatic and lively bastard child of a minor heir of Clan Mroranon, with a knack for trapmaking, which he had fallen in love with and married, and her slowly infiltrading House Kundarak, appearing as a competent Trapmaker, which after the marriage had been intruduced to their Warding Guild, making a name for herself as a highly competent trapsmith, and just as competent to test them.

What noone knew was that while at day she worked at strengthing their traps, at night she snuck into wealthy homes and even, every now and again, into the Kundarak vaults or Sivis Libaries to steal small valuable objects or copying infomation off secret documents which she used a irvhir kobold shape to meet with a goblin fence was welling to pay through his nose for. Not that the money really mattered all that much, but the thrill, oh the thrill was delicious.

If someone linked her dwarven personage to her clandestine hobby, which she always did in the shape of another race anyhows, she could always hire someone to quietly dispose her unsuspecting husband, stealing his position and playing the shocked, slightly naive, but innocent man, whom had been hoodwinked for so long without learning the fact. At least he worked in the Warding Guild as well, so she should be able to pull it off, and managing to Infiltrade even deeper as instead of being someone married into the house, then believed to be part of the house. Ina got the shivers of excitement of the idea, the thrill of trying to pull that off. Maybe I should consider pulling that off even without someone connecting the dots.





Ability
Score


Strength
8


Dexterity
16


Constitution
8


Intelligence
18


Wisdom
8


Charisma
14



All stat increases is going into Intelligence





Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Martial Changling Rogue 1
+0
+0
+2
+0
Appraise 4, Bluff 4, Craft (Trapmaking) 4, Diplomacy 4, Disable Device 4, Disguise 4, Forgery 4, Gather Infomation 4, Hide 4, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 2(cc), Move Silently 4, Open Lock 4, Search 4, Sense Motive 4
Expeditious DodgeB Racial Emulation
Fighter Bonus Feat, Social Intuition


2nd
Martial Rogue 2
+1
+0
+3
+0
Appraise 5, Bluff 5, Craft (Trapmaking) 5, Diplomacy 5, Disable Device 5, Disguise 5, Forgery 5, Hide 5, Move Silently 5, Open Lock 5, Search 5, Sense Motive 5
Improved DiversionB
Fighter Bonus Feat, Evasion


3rd
Martial Rogue 3
+2
+1
+3
+1
Appraise 6, Bluff 6, Craft (Trapmaking) 6, Diplomacy 6, Disable Device 6, Disguise 6, Hide 6, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 2,5(cc), Move Silently 6, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Sense Motive 6
Skill Focus (Bluff)
Trap Sense +1


4th
Martial Rogue 4
+3
+1
+4
+1
Appraise 7, Bluff 7, Craft (Trapmaking) 7, Diplomacy 7, Disable Device 7, Disguise 7, Hide 7, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 3(cc), Move Silently 7, Open Lock 7, Search 7, Sense Motive 7
Improved InitiativeB
Fighter Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge


5th
Swordsage 1
+3
+1
+6
+3
Bluff 8(cc), Craft (Trapmaking) 8, Disguise 8(cc), Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 4(cc), Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Sense Motive 8

Quick To Act +1, Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand)


6th
Spymaster 1
+3
+1
+8
+3
Appraise 9, Bluff 9, Disable Device 9, Disguise 9, Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Open Lock 9, Search 9
Persona Immersion
Cover Identity (Delbra Mroranon), Undetectable Alignment


7th
Silver Key 1
+3
+1
+10
+5
Bluff 10, Craft (Trapmaking) 10, Disable Device 10, Disguise 10, Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Open Lock 10, Search 10, Spellcraft 3

Armored Abjuration, Heir's Mark, Trap Master +1, Warder's Keys, Wardsense


8th
Silver Key 2
+4
+1
+11
+6
Bluff 11, Craft (Trapmaking) 11, Disable Device 11, Disguise 11, Hide 11, Move Silently 11, Open Lock 11, Search 11, Spellcraft 8

Crafty Hands


9th
Trapsmith 1
+4
+1
+13
+6
Appraise 12, Craft (Trapmaking) 12, Disable Device 12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 2(cc), Open Lock 12, Search 12
Darkstalker
Booby Traps (Simple), Master Disarmer, Trap Sense +2


10th
Trapsmith 2
+5
+1
+14
+6
Appraise 13, Craft (trapmaking) 13, Disable Device 13, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4(cc), Listen 1, Open Lock 13, Search 13, Spot 1

Arrow Proof, Quick Fingers


11th
Trapsmith 3
+6
+2
+14
+7
Appraise 14, Craft (trapmaking) 14, Disable Device 14, Listen 4, Open Lock 14, Search 14, Spot 4

Booby Traps (Advanced), Unweave, Trap Sense +3


12th
Silver Key 3
+7
+3
+14
+7
Bluff 15, Craft (Trapmaking) 15, Disable Device 15, Disguise 15, Hide 12, Open Lock 15, Search 15
Trap Sensitivity
Invisibility


13th
Silver Key 4
+8
+3
+15
+8
Bluff 16, Craft (Trapmaking) 16, Disable Device 16, Disguise 16, Hide 16, Move Silently 14, Open Lock 16, Search 16

Trap Master +2


14th
Silver Key 5
+8
+3
+15
+8
Bluff 17, Craft (Trapmaking) 17, Disable Device 17, Disguise 17, Hide 17, Move Silently 17, Open Lock 17, Search 17 Spellcraft 11

Sly Soul


15th
Silver Key 6
+9
+4
+16
+9
Bluff 18, Craft (Trapmaking) 18, Disable Device 18, Disguise 18, Hide 18, Move Silently 18, Open lock 18, Search 18, Spellcraft 16
Practiced Spellcaster (Trapsmith)
Cunning Body


16th
Silver Key 7
+10
+4
+16
+9
Bluff 19, Craft (Trapmaking) 19, Disable Device 19, Disguise 19, Hide 19, Move Silently 19, Open Lock 19, Search 19, Sense Motive 10, Spellcraft 19

Trap Master +3


17th
Silver Key 8
+11
+4
+17
+10
Bluff 20, Craft (Trapmaking) 20, Disable Device 20, Disguise 20, Hide 20, Move Silently 20, Open Lock 20, Search 20, Sense Motive 14, Spellcraft 20

Slippery Mind


18th
Silver Key 9
+11
+5
+17
+10
Bluff 21, Craft (Trapmaking) 21, Disable Device 21, Disguise 21, Hide 21, Move Silently 21, Open Lock 21, Search 21, Sense Motive 19, Spellcraft 21
Trap Engineer
Veiled Spirit


19th
Silver Key 10
+12
+5
+18
+11
Bluff 22, Craft (Trapmaking) 22, Disable Device 22, Disguise 22, Hide 22, Listen 5, Move Silently 22, Open Lock 22, Search 22, Sense Motive 22, Spellcraft 22, Spot 5

Master of Doors, Trap Master +4



Skills at Level 19:
Appraise 14, Bluff 22, Craft (Trapmaking) 22, Diplomacy 7, Disable Device 22, Disguise 22, Forgery 5, Gather Infomation 4, Hide 22, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 4, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Listen 5, Move Silently 22, Open Lock 22, Search 22, Sense Motive 22, Spellcraft 22, Spot 5



Maneuvers:



Level
Initiator Level
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known


5th
3rd
6
4
1



Maneuvers Known: Shadow Jaunt, Cloak of Deception, Mountain Hammer, Wind Stride, Counter Charge, Baffling Defense
Stances Known: Child of Shadow

Spells:

Per Day:


Level
1st
2nd


9th
1
-


10th
2
-


11th
2
1



Spells known:
1st: Arcane Sight, Gaseous Form, Haste
2nd: Dimension Door, Stone Shape



ECL 5 (lvl 4):
At This point Ina have managed to get a lot of good feats out of the way, getting the most out of the Fighter Bonus feats as possible for a non-combatant, just as for the rest of the career, Ina's main response to combat is do use Improved Diversion together with her Hide in Plain Sight and her high Bluff/Hide to disengage. An Encounter that has to be fought instead of thought is an encounter Ina can't contribute to, getting past them non-lethally, by steath is the preferred choice.

ECL 10 (lvl 9):
Starting to become very strong against non-combat encounters, with a number of utility maneuvers from Swordsage, a strong cover identity as Delbra the Grey (supported by Persona Immersion, leaving low-level divination to be fooled), and the ability to work with the most difficult traps around, from a distance, when bypassing completely (via Shadow Jaunt or Gaseous Form) aren't possible. Lastly Ina's stealth ability have been strengthened as well via Darkstalker. Trap Master and Master Disarmer works nicely together at making Trap disarming a breeze, being respectively insight and untyped bonuses, together with Circumstance + Competence bonuses from Warder's Keys, the bonus from both having trapfinding and Wardsense have been traded (ahead of time) for Social Intuition (mainly for take 10 on Bluff checks and to a lesser degree Diplomacy) and another 8 skill points at first level. Armored Abjuration and Heir's Mark through aren't used for anything as my few spells are cast as if a Bard, hence Light armor already being allowed, and that i'm not able to get Dragonmarks

ECL 15 (lvl 14):
Grabbing another two levels of Trapsmith, gaining a small DR bonus against mechanical traps and the ability to disable traps much faster, either due to simply being faster on Disable device checks, or by having Dispel magic 3/day against magical traps, including some quite handy spells to bypass them (Dim.Door and Stone Shape). Meanwhile i get Invisibility once a day at CL = ChrLvl, which supplements the effectively 'at-will' Cloak of Deception, which only works on my own turn, even more skill bonus on magical traps, and Sly Soul giving my a reasonable spell resistence. On the feat side of things I get 'auto-search' on mechanical traps within 5ft.

ECL 20 (lvl 19):
Rest of the Silver Key levels to be collected here, earning me Cunning Body, which helps if certain traps manages to surprise me, Slippery Mind, which make me reroll failed saves against Mind-effecting and Veiled Spirit which boosts by allready strong Hide checks and Will saves against Divination attempts, lastly i get the ultimative vault infiltration skill in Master of Doors which makes all magically defended doors 'believe' that i have explicit rights to enter.



Inspirational Credit is due, to Chronos' Kole Naerrin for Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide, in similar (if not quite as spectacular) fashion to Thunder Guide, Silver Key have next to nothing on the shelves when it come to combat ability, so i decided to follow the aforementioned Characters tracks in making the best non-combatant as I could.

Automatic Languages is Common, Bonus Languages from high beginning Intelligence is Dwarven, Elven, Gnome and Halfing.

Q: How do you qualify for Silver Key?

A: There is two tricky parts of entering Silver Key which my character initially doesn't appear to do. Firstly you must be Dwarf, and secondly you must be a member of House Kundarak.

Through Racial Emulation I'm for all intends and purposes counting as a Dwarf whenever i'm in such a form, and you can marry into a house becomming a member in that way, even if you wasn't born as such. In theory you could also be adopted into the house but Kundarak is noted for only doing so very rarely.




Source
Material Used


Tome of Magic
Dark Template


Races of Eberron
Changling Rogue Racial substitution levels, Racial Emulation, Persona Immersion


Tome of Battle
Swordsage


Races of the Wild
Expeditious Dodge


Complete Adventurer
Spymaster, Improved Diversion


Dungeonscape
Trapsmith, Trap Engineer, Trap Sensitivity


Unearthed Arcana
Martial Rogue alternate class


Lords of Madness
Darkstalker


Complete Arcane
Practiced Spellcaster

[Heliomance]

I don't see any ranks in Perform (Limerick) in that build...





Barton d’Kundarak

http://community.wizards.com/sites/mtgcommunity/files/pictures/887595205b19f13a84be9148963bd5d7.jpg


The thing about all silver keys
Is the urge to pick up what he sees
But this is forbidden
His skills all unbidden
So you see them all beg on their knees.

A petulant Key named d’Kundarak
Picked everyone’s pocket with quite a knack
For getting in where he shouldn’t
His house, abide this? They couldn’t
So this d’Kundarak they had to sack.

Now he was stuck on the street
He needed to make his ends meet
In so many places
There were hid-away spaces
And there his way in he would cheat

Once someone stepped out of thin air
And went down the street without care
d’Kundarak stepped in
His face a broad grin
Once inside he ascended the stair

He found himself in a large mansion
At such splendor his face was a’blanchin’
The table was set with food so delightful
He was sure his excitement would seem quite frightful
So he sat down and began his stomach’s expansion.

The servants around were unseen
And asked him not where he’d been
They filled up his cup
And from it he did sup
On this lifestyle he’d say he was keen.


NE dwarf rogue 3/incarnate 2/silver key 10/incarnate 7

str 8
dex 14
con 14
int 18
wis 12
cha 8

after adjusters:

str 8
dex 14 (16th lvl ability boost here)
con 16
int 18 (other increases here)
wis 12
cha 6




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rogue 1
+0
+0
+2
+0
bluff 4, diplomacy 4, dd 4, forgery 4, hide 4, k(architecture and engineering) 4, listen 4, ms 4, open lock 4, spot 4, tumble 4, umd 4
midnight dodge
Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding


2nd
Rogue 2
+1
+0
+3
+0
bluff 1 (5), tumble 5, umd 1 (5)

evasion


3rd
Rogue 3
+2
+1
+3
+1
bluff 1 (6) jump 5, tumble 1 (6), umd 1 (6)
least dragonmark (mark of warding)
Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1


4th
Incarnate 1
+2
+3
+3
+3
k(planes), 4, k(religion) 1

Aura, detect opposition


5th
Incarnate 2
+3
+4
+3
+4
k(planes)1 (5), k(religion) 4 (5)

Chakra bind (crown)


6th
Silver Key 1
+3
+4
+5
+6
balance 5, umd 3 (9), tumble 2 (8)
lesser dragonmark (mark of warding)
Armored abjuration, heir's mark, trap master +1, warder's keys, wardsense


7th
Silver Key 2
+4
+4
+6
+7
dd 5 (10), listen 1 (5), spot 1 (5), tumble 2 (10), umd 1 (10)

Crafty hands


8th
Silver Key 3
+5
+5
+6
+7
dd 1 (11), hide 3 (7), listen 1 (6), ms 2 (6), spot 2 (7), tumble 1 (11), umd 1 (11)

Invisibility


9th
Silver Key 4
+6/+1
+5
+7
+8
dd 1 (12), hide 3 (10), listen 3 (9), ms 2 (8), tumble 1 (12), umd 1 (12)
shape soulmeld (kruthik claws)
Trap master +2


10th
Silver Key 5
+6/+1
+5
+7
+8
dd 1 (13), hide 3 (13), listen 3 (12), ms 2 (10), tumble 1 (13), umd 1 (13)

Sly soul


11th
Silver Key 6
+7/+2
+6
+8
+9
dd 1 (14), hide 1 (14), listen 2 (14), ms 2 (12), sleight of hand 4, umd 1 (14)

Cunning body


12th
Silver Key 7
+8/+3
+6
+8
+9
dd 1 (15), hide 1 (15), listen 1 (15), ms 2 (14), search 1, sleight of hand 5 (9)
open lesser chakra (shoulder)
Trap master +3


13th
Silver Key 8
+9/+4
+6
+9
+10
dd 1 (16), hide 1 (16), listen 1 (16), ms 2 (14), search 1 (2), sleight of hand 5 (14)

Slippery mind


14th
Silver Key 9
+9/+4
+7
+10
+11
dd 1 (17), hide 1 (17), listen 1 (17), ms 2 (16), search 2 (4), sleight of hand 3 (17)

Veiled spirit


15th
Silver Key 10
+10/+5
+7
+10
+11
dd 1 (18), hide 1 (18), listen 1 (18), ms 2 (18), search 5 (9), sleight of hand 1 (18)
darkstalker
Master of doors, trap master +4


16th
Incarnate 3
+10/+5
+7
+11
+11
k(arcana) 7

Expanded soulmeld capacity +1, incarnum radiance 1/day


17th
Incarnate 4
+11/+6/+1
+8
+11
+12
k(arcana) 3 (11), k(religion) 3 (8), k (planes) 1 (6)

Chakra binds (feet, hands)


18th
Incarnate 5
+11/+6/+1
+8
+11
+12
k(arcana) 2 (13), k(religion) 3 (11), k (planes) 2 (8)
Master pickpocket
Rapid meldshaping 1/day


19th
Incarnate 6
+12/+7/+2
+9
+12
+13
k (arcana) 2 (15), k (religion) 3 (14), k (planes) 2 (10)




20th
Incarnate 7
+12/+7/+2
+9
+12
+13
k (arcana) 2 (17), k (religion) 2 (16), k (planes) 2 (12)

Share incarnum radiance





play as a relatively straightforward skulk with your melds giving you quite the leg up. they give helpful bonuses to a huge number of skills, including your bread and butter as a hopeful silver key through the theft gloves. 2+2essentia to dd, open lock, and sleight of hand is awfully nice. plus since you actually have trapfinding from rogue, you can save yourself a hand bind later on and use it on something else if you feel so inclined.

the airstep sandals let you fly right out of the gate, so enjoy them as much as you can, they’re never going away.

skulk around and poke people with sneak attack and make use of your melds to greatest effect. dissolving spittle is great at low levels (since you add SA dice onto it transforming it into energy damage) and necrocarnum circlet is invaluable in turning the tide in a battle, providing utility, tanking, and pretty much anything else your DM throws at you monster-wise.


congratulations, you’re in the secret ingredient!
silver key begins pulling its weight immediately with a variety of cool abilities.

You no longer have to be up close and personal to the things you’re trying to mess with, so can linger safely around the corner while still imparting all your bonuses. great.

invisibility is up and running, helping you out with stealth as well.

speaking of stealth, you nab kruthik claws from the totemist list at this level as well. you can have them chill out on either your hands or (more likely) your shoulders to give a 4+2essentia bonus to hide and ms. very nice. plus this leaves your hands free to shape the theft gloves.

you’ve got lesser dragonmark to help fuel your cunning body next level, so everything’s falling into place. you’ve kept your sneaking skills up to par alongside detection, so nothing should be able to get the drop on you.


goodbye silver key, parting is such sweet sorrow.

you’re done already, as soon as you were in. slippery mind’s up protecting you from nasty effects (supplement it by binding the enigma helm to your crown chakra, negating all (charm) effects) and your spell resistance is up to protect you as well.

your shoulder chakra’s open now, allowing you to bind your melds there should you feel so inclined.

your capstone activates, which is my all time favorite thing about this (or quite possibly any) class.

gatecrash a magnificent mansion and eat all the cucumber sandwiches. waltz into held portals, bypass land wombs, slip through rope tricks, whatever you want. the sky’s the limit. keep an eye out for extradimensional spaces if you ever need a quick escape and cool your heels as long as you want. non-silver keys will find it, at best, problematic to follow you.


you round out with more incarnate, giving you more melds and binds. it boosts your utility and your esentia cap is raised by virtue of your third level, so all your melds hit harder and you can invest more essentia into them.

master pickpocket’s up now. you can take anything someone adjacent has on their person as a standard without provoking an aoo (as long as it’s not in their hand)
+4 if you’re grappling. plus if you try to do it as a free, the penalty’s only -10 instead of -20.

your mod alone is high, but with theft gloves active (and necrocarnum touch if you can spare a meld, its bonus type is profane, so stacks with theft gloves’ insight) you should be able to pull this off essentially whenever you feel like. take a bunch of free actions and strip your opponent of everything you need. your imagination’s the limit.



srd: rogue
magic of incarnum: midnight dodge, incarnate, shape soulmeld, open chakra
eberron campaign setting: least dragonmark, lesser dragonmark
city of stormreach: master pickpocket
lords of madness: darkstalker

[Heliomance]

Only four entries! Well, at least judging should be easy.

[Sian]

seems like Vizzini wasn't quite as strong as i'd have believed, with 2 Dark Changlings with largely similar classes

[KrimsonNekros]

This what i had cooked up before i just ran out of gas.


http://th02.deviantart.net/fs12/300W/i/2006/279/e/4/KaBoom_by_PookaWitch.jpg
Goldpaw
Goblin, CN, Rogue 4/ Stoneblessed 3/ Heir of Siberys 3/ Silver Key 10

Abilities:



Strength Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Reason
10 17 9 16 12 6 32-point buy
10 18 9 16 12 6 4th
10 18 11 16 12 6 Stoneblessed
10 19 11 16 12 6 8th
10 20 11 16 12 6 12th
10 21 11 16 12 6 16th
10 22 11 16 12 6 20th




Build:


Level Class BAB Fort Ref Will Skills Feats Features
1 Rogue +0 + 2 + 2 + 2 Appraise 2
Balance 4
Craft(Stoneworking) 4
Disable Device 4
Hide 4
Jump 4
Move Silently 4
Open Lock 4
Sense Motive 4
Sleight of Hand 2
Speak Language 4
Tumble 4 Two-Weapon Fighting Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
2 Rogue +1 + 3 + 3 + 3 - - Evasion
3 Stoneblessed +1 + 1 + 1 + 3 - Weapon Finesse Stonebond
4 Rogue +2 + 1 + 1 + 4 - - Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
5 Stoneblessed +3 + 1 + 1 + 4 - - Racial battle technique
6 Rogue +4 + 2 + 2 + 5 - Dodge Uncanny Dodge
7 Stoneblessed +5 + 4 + 2 + 6 - - Stoneborn
8 Silver Key +6/+1 + 5 + 2 + 7 - - Armored abjuration, heir's mark, trap master +1, warder's keys, wardsense
9 Silver Key +6/+1 + 5 + 3 + 7 - Two-Weapon Defense Crafty hands
10 Silver Key +6/+1 + 5 + 4 + 7 - - Invisibility
11 Silver Key +7/+2 + 5 + 5 + 7 - - Trap master +2
12 Silver Key +8/+3 + 6 + 5 + 8 - Heroic Spirit Sly soul
13 Heir of Siberys +9/+4 + 6 + 5 + 8 - Favored in House Additional action points, bonus feat
14 Heir of Siberys +10/+5 + 6 + 7 + 8 - Combat Reflexes Siberys mark
15 Heir of Siberys +10/+5 + 6 + 7 + 8 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Defense Improved Siberys mark
16 Silver Key +11/+6/+1 + 7 + 8 + 9 - - Cunning body
17 Silver Key +12/+7/+2 + 7 + 8 + 9 - - Trap master +3
18 Silver Key +12/+7/+2 + 7 + 8 + 9 - Greater Two-Weapon Defense Slippery mind
19 Silver Key +13/+8/+3 + 8 + 8 + 10 - - Veiled spirit
20 Silver Key +14/+9/+4 + 8 + 9 + 10 - - Master of doors, trap master +4

[Sian]

You're going to judge then?

[Deadline]

I'll get started on judging then. Hopefully this won't take too long. :smalltongue:

For the curious, my build stub was Martial Rogue 3/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 5/Exemplar 2.

[Venger]

I'll get started on judging then. Hopefully this won't take too long. :smalltongue:

For the curious, my build stub was Martial Rogue 3/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 5/Exemplar 2.
Lucky you didn't cook then

[Bucky]

And I was considering entering as well with core+dragonmarked material only:
Rogue X/Assassin 1/Silver Key 10/Assassin 10-X, for assassinating people in private extra-dimensional spaces

But I couldn't figure out how skill points work well enough to qualify for the prestige classes in a timely fashion.

[d20familiar]

Oh, well. Should have tried that Merchant Prince dragonmark-using information-trader idea. Or that other Feat Rogue / Martial Wizard / Jaunter wanderer idea.
Thought them too obvious. Silly me.

[WhamBamSam]

Frankly, I'm almost surprised that Barton wasn't a Racial Emulation Changeling too, what with the Tiefling Incarnate sub-levels being so good, and him going right up to the one that would have given him Telepathy.

I'll get started on judging Wednesday night or Thursday.

[Venger]

And I was considering entering as well with core+dragonmarked material only:
Rogue X/Assassin 1/Silver Key 10/Assassin 10-X, for assassinating people in private extra-dimensional spaces

But I couldn't figure out how skill points work well enough to qualify for the prestige classes in a timely fashion.
Skills aren't too bad. Your class gives a certain number per level. For example rogue gives eight. You buy class skills for the cost of one point. Class Skills are the ones on your list.

You can have up to your level plus three in a class skill and half of that in a cross class skill. These are ones not in your list. Each point costs two points. Half ranks are allowed but don't change your mod. They do count for allowing skills to be used if they are trained only such as spell craft

If a skill was ever a class skill For any of your classes then you keep the higher cap even if you lose it later

To determine skills at each level add what your class gives you Your intelligence modifier and one extra if you're human

You get quadruple at level one.

That's all there is to it. Better luck next time.

Oh, well. Should have tried that Merchant Prince dragonmark-using information-trader idea. Or that other Feat Rogue / Martial Wizard / Jaunter wanderer idea.
Thought them too obvious. Silly me.
I love jaunter. I vizzinnied myself Out of it this round since I too thought it was toi obvious

Frankly, I'm almost surprised that Barton wasn't a Racial Emulation Changeling too, what with the Tiefling Incarnate sub-levels being so good, and him going right up to the one that would have given him Telepathy.

I'll get started on judging Wednesday night or Thursday.

Racial emulation only lets you grab humanoid subtypes. The substitution level is only for tiefling and not lesser do I don't think that would have worked

[WhamBamSam]

Racial emulation only lets you grab humanoid subtypes. The substitution level is only for tiefling and not lesser do I don't think that would have workedLesser Tieflings are Tieflings. In fact, the actual rule for Lesser Planetouched is that you replace one with the other (ie, the 'Lesser' Tiefling is the version of the Tiefling that your game uses under this variant rule, and the two do not exist in the same campaign world). Thankfully, I don't think anyone actually enforces the "one or the other, but not both" thing, but yeah, a Lesser Tiefling is a Tiefling, and if you count as one for all purposes, then you count as a Tiefling for the racial requirement of Tiefling Incarnate. Iron Chef is generally pretty permissive with regard to Lesser Planetouched, so I can't see why it wouldn't fly.

[Sian]

Racial emulation only lets you grab humanoid subtypes. The substitution level is only for tiefling and not lesser do I don't think that would have worked

Well ... i see no reason why Lesser Tiefling wouldn't be able to take it, but pay mind that Lesser Planetouched is Forgotten Realms specific so thats a negative for cross setting mixing

[Venger]

Lesser Tieflings are Tieflings. In fact, the actual rule for Lesser Planetouched is that you replace one with the other (ie, the 'Lesser' Tiefling is the version of the Tiefling that your game uses under this variant rule, and the two do not exist in the same campaign world). Thankfully, I don't think anyone actually enforces the "one or the other, but not both" thing, but yeah, a Lesser Tiefling is a Tiefling, and if you count as one for all purposes, then you count as a Tiefling for the racial requirement of Tiefling Incarnate. Iron Chef is generally pretty permissive with regard to Lesser Planetouched, so I can't see why it wouldn't fly.
Huh. Well how about that?


Well ... i see no reason why Lesser Tiefling wouldn't be able to take it, but pay mind that Lesser Planetouched is Forgotten Realms specific so thats a negative for cross setting mixing

There is that. Given how common racial substitution was this round it probably would have been a wash at best

[WhamBamSam]

There is that. Given how common racial substitution was this round it probably would have been a wash at bestTrue. It also would have been hard for him to squeeze in the required two feats for Racial Emulation and Mindsight to really make use of the sub-levels, and it would have meant delaying at least a few Silver Key levels. It wouldn't necessarily have been a good idea, to change the build that way, it's just a thing I could've seen happen.

EDIT: It would make for a funny little adventure to find out that all the Silver Keys are actually changelings independently spying on one another and on House Kundurak.

[Venger]

True. It also would have been hard for him to squeeze in the required two feats for Racial Emulation and Mindsight to really make use of the sub-levels, and it would have meant delaying at least a few Silver Key levels. It wouldn't necessarily have been a good idea, to change the build that way, it's just a thing I could've seen happen.

EDIT: It would make for a funny little adventure to find out that all the Silver Keys are actually changelings independently spying on one another and on House Kundurak.

Yeah that's true as well.

I'd play that. Sounds hilarious

[Sian]

Even better if Kundarak is completely aware of the fact and use it as a 'fake front' for spies to find, so they don't go looking even deeper in the house where they would find the 'vautkeepers'

[Venger]

Even better if Kundarak is completely aware of the fact and use it as a 'fake front' for spies to find, so they don't go looking even deeper in the house where they would find the 'vautkeepers'

And then there's another cell of changelings spying on them. And another layer of false info. How far down does it go?

[Sian]

And then there's another cell of changelings spying on them. And another layer of false info. How far down does it go?

down to the Cyre's exiled Milkman guild

[Venger]

down to the Cyre's exiled Milkman guild

They are the true power behind the throne.

Cyran avenger would be fun. Really any eberron class. Afb can't remember if it's ten levels or not. Its class features are exactly the kind of "So What? " That characterize iron chef

[Deadline]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUlXeNJazXQqbcFWoYqLYgErP7knYAb 0HUK172RQ8WjBkMZyf4Mw

Curse you, milkman Dan D'Orien.

[Sian]

They are the true power behind the throne.

Cyran avenger would be fun. Really any eberron class. Afb can't remember if it's ten levels or not. Its class features are exactly the kind of "So What? " That characterize iron chef

Cyran Avenger is 5 levels and 4/5 casting

[Venger]

Cyran Avenger is 5 levels and 4/5 casting

Thanks. Maybe it could be a bonus round for Christmas or something.

[Sian]

I'd say its not unique enough to carry a round by itself.

[KrimsonNekros]

You're going to judge then?

DOn't really feel like i can judge properly :/

[Venger]

DOn't really feel like i can judge properly :/

No problem. We've got plenty of judges this round

[AvatarVecna]

EDIT: It would make for a funny little adventure to find out that all the Silver Keys are actually changelings independently spying on one another and on House Kundurak.

Hooray, a way to reference Oglaf that isn't NSFW!

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/shapeshifters_8460.jpg

[Heliomance]

down to the Cyre's exiled Milkman guild

Who is the Milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

[The Viscount]

Even better if Kundarak is completely aware of the fact and use it as a 'fake front' for spies to find, so they don't go looking even deeper in the house where they would find the 'vautkeepers'
Of course! That's why this class is so terrible! Kundarak is trying to get all the fakers killed!


Frankly, I'm almost surprised that Barton wasn't a Racial Emulation Changeling too, what with the Tiefling Incarnate sub-levels being so good, and him going right up to the one that would have given him Telepathy.
This would likely go poorly with judges who rule using continual qualification.


Who is the Milkman? What is the purpose of the goggles?

Which goggles are we talking about?

Who am I kidding, regardless of which goggles there's only 1 answer.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvyOwM9IcAAtLcQ.jpg

[Heliomance]

Of course! That's why this class is so terrible! Kundarak is trying to get all the fakers killed!


This would likely go poorly with judges who rule using continual qualification.



Which goggles are we talking about?

Who am I kidding, regardless of which goggles there's only 1 answer.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvyOwM9IcAAtLcQ.jpg

I think between us we may be firing off four or five different sets of references at cross purposes.

[WhamBamSam]

This would likely go poorly with judges who rule using continual qualification.This would be lapsed qualification for RSLs though, rather than a PrC, and as far as I know, there's no rules text really suggesting that that's an issue. PrCs at least have the little snippets in CWar and CArc.

[Venger]

This would be lapsed qualification for RSLs though, rather than a PrC, and as far as I know, there's no rules text really suggesting that that's an issue. PrCs at least have the little snippets in CWar and CArc.

yeah, but judges who are pro-cwar tend to generalize that to other content.

[Vaz]

My buold woukd have been a dream dwarf Generic Expert 1/Silver Key 10/Hoardstealer 9, maximising Know (Planes) and using Dream Teller feays from heroes of horror to learn how to rob things after being betrayed by the house, and was the financier behind the Dragons Blood trade in Sharn.

[OMG PONIES]

This what i had cooked up before i just ran out of gas.

Nice! I expected Stoneblessed to be used a lot this round, but you would have been the only one.


For the curious, my build stub was Martial Rogue 3/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 5/Exemplar 2.

Yeah, I eyed up Exemplar for a bit as well with the skillmonkey nature of this Ingredient.


And I was considering entering as well with core+dragonmarked material only:
Rogue X/Assassin 1/Silver Key 10/Assassin 10-X, for assassinating people in private extra-dimensional spaces

But I couldn't figure out how skill points work well enough to qualify for the prestige classes in a timely fashion.

That's actually a pretty baller use of the most bizarre class feature this Ingredient offered.


Oh, well. Should have tried that Merchant Prince dragonmark-using information-trader idea. Or that other Feat Rogue / Martial Wizard / Jaunter wanderer idea.
Thought them too obvious. Silly me.

Ooh, I love me some Merchant Prince! I think folks may have shied away due to the two different campaign settings. Would you have used the DMGII rules for running a business as well?


EDIT: It would make for a funny little adventure to find out that all the Silver Keys are actually changelings independently spying on one another and on House Kundurak.

Oh goodness.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUlXeNJazXQqbcFWoYqLYgErP7knYAb 0HUK172RQ8WjBkMZyf4Mw

Curse you, milkman Dan D'Orien.

What a fantastic throwback!


I think between us we may be firing off four or five different sets of references at cross purposes.

And that's different than your typical Iron Chef thread...how, exactly? :smalltongue:


yeah, but judges who are pro-cwar tend to generalize that to other content.

Totally read that as "judges who are pro-war" and thought things had taken a turn toward the serious.


My buold woukd have been a dream dwarf Generic Expert 1/Silver Key 10/Hoardstealer 9, maximising Know (Planes) and using Dream Teller feays from heroes of horror to learn how to rob things after being betrayed by the house, and was the financier behind the Dragons Blood trade in Sharn.

Very interesting! I especially like the inclusion of Hoardstealer. Since all the cool kids are doing it, the only build I really played around with:

Kobold d'Kundarak, Kobold Cleric (Kobold & Dwarf domains) 5/Shaper of Form 2/Trapsmith 3/Silver Key 10. Essentially, he sought to end the hatred between the kobolds who live in the Cogs beneath Sharn and the dwarves in the towers. A divine revelation from the host showed him that, in order to reconcile with the dwarves he would have to become a dwarf. It didn't really get much farther than that, and all my other ideas were simply possible class breakdowns (if they were even that thought-out).

Also, for ease of reference:
Aludra Giantbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19719127&postcount=161): Fireblood Dwarf Ranger 5/Beastmaster 2/Deepwarden 3/Silver Key 10
Jinx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19719129&postcount=162): Dark Changeling Rogue 5/Trapsmith 5/Silver Key 10
Ina (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19719134&postcount=163): Dark Changeling Rogue 4/Swordsage 1/Spymaster 1/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 3
Barton d'Kundarak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19719145&postcount=164): Dwarf Rogue 3/Incarnate 7/Silver Key 10

[Amphetryon]

I was trying to get into the Trapsmith/Silver Key suite as a Wild Shape, Trap Expert Ranger, posing as an Animal Companion or Improved Familiar.

[Venger]

My buold woukd have been a dream dwarf Generic Expert 1/Silver Key 10/Hoardstealer 9, maximising Know (Planes) and using Dream Teller feays from heroes of horror to learn how to rob things after being betrayed by the house, and was the financier behind the Dragons Blood trade in Sharn.
We can't use generic classes in iron chef. Would've loved to see a hoard stealer though. I used the class back in temple raider. It's a lot of fun. Might be a good si actually


I was trying to get into the Trapsmith/Silver Key suite as a Wild Shape, Trap Expert Ranger, posing as an Animal Companion or Improved Familiar.
That is hilarious. Please tell me you would've found a way to be a hairy spider

[Amphetryon]

That is hilarious. Please tell me you would've found a way to be a hairy spider

Actually, I was trying to use it in conjunction with Grenadier, since a flying "Animal Companion" dropping bombs on people when he wasn't opening doors amused me.

[daremetoidareyo]

My stub was going to be a changeling gnome artificer that hung out in antimagic fields casting and crafty handling. How to get a permanent antimagic field became an issue...also, time.

[Sian]

... wonder if a 'true thief' Lurk could have been an interesting entry

[AvatarVecna]

My stub was gonna be a dwarf rogue 5/silver key 1, because he died the first time he picked a fight as a silver key.

[Venger]

My stub was gonna be a dwarf rogue 5/silver key 1, because he died the first time he picked a fight as a silver key.
He thought he could pick a fight like he picks a lock. He thought wrong.

[The Viscount]

I'm surprised nobody did a variation on my idea, which was skillful class 5/SI 10/Combat Trapsmith 5 and spend combat littering the area with traps and then using crafty hands to make disable device checks on my own traps from far away and fail, triggering them to hit nearby enemies. It was kind of weak, but it was the only thing I could think of doing with the class, and I abandoned it due to time.

[dysprosium]

I'm surprised nobody did a variation on my idea, which was skillful class 5/SI 10/Combat Trapsmith 5 and spend combat littering the area with traps and then using crafty hands to make disable device checks on my own traps from far away and fail, triggering them to hit nearby enemies. It was kind of weak, but it was the only thing I could think of doing with the class, and I abandoned it due to time.

There was a build in the Dwarven Defender round that was similar to what you described and even had the Kundarak last name too.

[Venger]

There was a build in the Dwarven Defender round that was similar to what you described and even had the Kundarak last name too.

And two of that kind back in night song infiltrator

[erok0809]

I had two ideas. One that was like half finished, a Dwarf Factotum 1/Rogue 3/Silver Key 5/Shadowdancer 1/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 5, which would have focused on getting into places unseen and nothing else, then putting some traps down to maybe hurt people? He wouldn't have been a very good one for anything outside of infiltration. Also, there were a couple Trapsmiths this round, so I'm glad I didn't.

The second build barely started, but I thought it would have been funny if I actually got it all together. I chose to use Stoneblessed to get a Goliath in, and basically made him focused on getting into places by smashing his way in if his Silver Key stuff didn't work and he got frustrated, or if it was just easier that way. The backstory was that the dwarves took in this angry Goliath and taught him how to enter places more silently than he's used to. The build stub was
LA 1/Barbarian 3/Stoneblessed 3/Silver Key 10/ Umbral Disciple 3. I would have definitely entered this one if I had finished it.

[Venger]

I had two ideas. One that was like half finished, a Dwarf Factotum 1/Rogue 3/Silver Key 5/Shadowdancer 1/Silver Key 10/Trapsmith 5, which would have focused on getting into places unseen and nothing else, then putting some traps down to maybe hurt people? He wouldn't have been a very good one for anything outside of infiltration. Also, there were a couple Trapsmiths this round, so I'm glad I didn't.

The second build barely started, but I thought it would have been funny if I actually got it all together. I chose to use Stoneblessed to get a Goliath in, and basically made him focused on getting into places by smashing his way in if his Silver Key stuff didn't work and he got frustrated, or if it was just easier that way. The backstory was that the dwarves took in this angry Goliath and taught him how to enter places more silently than he's used to. The build stub was
LA 1/Barbarian 3/Stoneblessed 3/Silver Key 10/ Umbral Disciple 3. I would have definitely entered this one if I had finished it.

That second build is hilarious. Trap killer was made for this concept

[Deadline]

The second build barely started, but I thought it would have been funny if I actually got it all together. I chose to use Stoneblessed to get a Goliath in, and basically made him focused on getting into places by smashing his way in if his Silver Key stuff didn't work and he got frustrated, or if it was just easier that way. The backstory was that the dwarves took in this angry Goliath and taught him how to enter places more silently than he's used to. The build stub was
LA 1/Barbarian 3/Stoneblessed 3/Silver Key 10/ Umbral Disciple 3. I would have definitely entered this one if I had finished it.

I actually had something similar with a Trapkiller Barbarian Dwarf. Basically, he was a bully in Silver Key training, and now that he's a Silver Key, he delights in smashing the hard work of his victims clients. Couldn't quite get all the fiddly bits to work the way I wanted though.

At any rate, back to reading the builds and getting my judging notes together. Shouldn't take more than a few days (I hope).

[Deadasadoor]

I kicked around a build that was something like 3 rogue/7 avenger/10 silver key. It would have been something like a loan shark, breaking into places and either eliminating or kidnapping a target. I figured it was too obvious and never got around to finishing it. I should have finished :smallannoyed:

[Deadline]

*sigh*

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fe/febd76af6a0be4f07634e50e5f35eb4261779f1f9efacb47a6 db02257d239bd9.jpg

[Darrin]

The best I could come up with was reworking my Lightning Thief build to leverage Disable Device, Open Locks, and Sleight of Hand up to the point I could use a series of free actions to displace myself throughout every open contiguous square (DC 90), free action to disable any devices I found (DC +100), free action to open locks on anything within 60' (DC +50), etc., essentially pilfering everything in the world worth stealing in a single round.

Factotum 3/Incarnate 4/Shadowcaster 1/Cleric 1/Exemplar 1/Silver Key 10

However, I've been fiddling around with the numbers, and the best I can get so far without equipment/magic items:

Disable Device: +62
Open Locks: +60
Sleight of Hand: +81

Add some magic items on top of that, and it's almost there.

[WhamBamSam]

The best I could come up with was reworking my Lightning Thief build to leverage Disable Device, Open Locks, and Sleight of Hand up to the point I could use a series of free actions to displace myself throughout every open contiguous square (DC 90), free action to disable any devices I found (DC +100), free action to open locks on anything within 60' (DC +50), etc., essentially pilfering everything in the world worth stealing in a single round.

Factotum 3/Incarnate 4/Shadowcaster 1/Cleric 1/Exemplar 1/Silver Key 10

However, I've been fiddling around with the numbers, and the best I can get so far without equipment/magic items:

Disable Device: +62
Open Locks: +60
Sleight of Hand: +81

Add some magic items on top of that, and it's almost there.Would Master of Doors have allowed contiguous include squares inside people's Rope Tricks and such? If so, trying to jam Silver Key into that build seems potentially worthwhile. You don't seem to have Trap Sense anywhere in there though, which is an issue.

[Darrin]

Would Master of Doors have allowed contiguous include squares inside people's Rope Tricks and such? If so, trying to jam Silver Key into that build seems potentially worthwhile.


I wasn't sure about that. Opening a door, even if it was arcane locked, would still require a move action. The entrance into rope trick's extradimensional space isn't closed or locked at any point, so assuming the Silver Key could displace himself vertically as well as horizontally, I'm not sure there's anything to stop him from entering the rope trick unless it's already full of creatures.



You don't seem to have Trap Sense anywhere in there though, which is an issue.

If I take out three levels of Incarnate, it mucks up my essentia and soulmeld capacity. Feh.

[Venger]

I wasn't sure about that. Opening a door, even if it was arcane locked, would still require a move action. The entrance into rope trick's extradimensional space isn't closed or locked at any point, so assuming the Silver Key could displace himself vertically as well as horizontally, I'm not sure there's anything to stop him from entering the rope trick unless it's already full of creatures.

Well, you could just use the airstep sandals to get up there. Rope tricks aren't really that high off the ground most of the time.

unfortunately you assume it's not already full of other silver keys sleeping inside to stay out of the cold

[Deadline]

Two builds down, two to go!

[Venger]

Two builds down, two to go!

well there are certain advantages to a round this small.

[Heliomance]

Let's get more judges, see if we can't make this the first round to have more judges than contestants!

[Venger]

Let's get more judges, see if we can't make this the first round to have more judges than contestants!

why... would we want that?

[Heliomance]

why... would we want that?

So we can say we did. Duh.

[Deadline]

why... would we want that?

Because:


It would be funny.
It will teach you whiners some respect. After all, we're everywhere, we outnumber you, we are watching you, and we are judging you. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not sure it's ever happened before.
Moar feedback!
Lots of opinions gives a more even result.
The Chairman has asked us to! Who are we to decline?

[Venger]

So we can say we did. Duh.
Oh of course, how silly of me


Because:


It would be funny.
It will teach you whiners some respect. After all, we're everywhere, we outnumber you, we are watching you, and we are judging you. :smallbiggrin:
I'm not sure it's ever happened before.
Moar feedback!
Lots of opinions gives a more even result.
The Chairman has asked us to! Who are we to decline?


it has never happened before. the closest we've gotten is a number of judges equal to contestants, back in cryokineticist with five of each.

I wouldn't hold my breath given people's complete lack of interest in this ingredient. I'm pretty happy we have the amount of judges we do especially after last round.

[Sian]

one thing's for certain, this one can't get the fastest judging ... Zinc XXXI, was judged in just over 5 hours (for two dishes), and i can't recall any judging that was done faster (even accounting for ammount of dishes)

[Venger]

one thing's for certain, this one can't get the fastest judging ... Zinc XXXI, was judged in just over 5 hours (for two dishes), and i can't recall any judging that was done faster (even accounting for ammount of dishes)

you are correct. smallest round (aside from this one) was cryokineticist, and the quickest judge didn't finish in less than 12 and a half hours.

[Deadline]

Initial notes and judging completed. I'm now going back over everything to ensure I didn't penalize or reward anyone differently on various things (lots of similarity this time around). Should be finished and up this afternoon.

[Venger]

Initial notes and judging completed. I'm now going back over everything to ensure I didn't penalize or reward anyone differently on various things (lots of similarity this time around). Should be finished and up this afternoon.

Great news. Thanks for the update

[Deadline]

JUDGEMENT!

Rogue is the obvious entry point here. Dwarf is the standard racial entry. Remember, proof-read your entries, double check that you qualify for everything (or at least qualify for the SI), and do something to either enhance each element of the SI, or come up with a use for them that isn't obvious or listed in the SI entry.

NOTE: Due to Warder's Keys being a class feature, I won't be penalizing for reliance on equipment for it.

My comments aren't meant to be mean, just critical. Also, my apologies for the brevity, my free time just isn't what it used to be.

Aludra Giantbane - 9.25

Originality: 3.5
I have to be honest here, there's not a tremendous amount to work with. You don't provide much to tie the build together here, so I'm going to have to just look at the components. You took a non-standard dwarf here, but didn't do anything with it (you go into no detail as to why it's useful). It's humorous, to me, that you chose one of the few Dwarf variants that doesn't get a racial dodge bonus against Giants, and yet Aludra carries the Giantbane surname. Trap Expert Ranger is nice to see, and Champion of the Wild gets you a little extra combat oomph instead of minimal spellcasting. Deepwarden is a fun way to pick up the required Trap Sense, but then you take two more levels of it for no apparent reason (Stonewarden doesn't do anything for you, and you don't mention why Animal Messenger is all that useful to you). I'm completely stymied as to why you'd take Beastmaster, but it was a surprise. You take Midnight Dodge, which is mechanically superior to Dodge (technically), but that's it. Education is a handy way of snagging the required knowledge as a class skill. Nothing here really wows me.

Power: 2.75
This category is a bit of a wash for you. You've got some good skills (but see Elegance), and a BAB of +17 lets you hit pretty reliably (presumably at range, with your feats). You can track, but are otherwise a terrible scout. You can hide, but not sneak (no move silently). Your dragonmark gives you a tiny bit of versatility. You aren't much for versatility, and surprisingly you aren't much of a skill monkey (given the SI). You can basically function as an average ranged character, good tracker, and a weak trapspringer (you rather disappointingly don't have any ranks in Search, so you can't actually find traps without stumbling into them). You list (Giant) as your favored enemy for both 1st and 5th level, but that doesn't actually do anything (your 1st Favored Enemy automatically goes up at 5th). The two extra levels in Deepwarden don't give you much (only Animal Messenger, Stone Warden does nothing for you as your Dex is higher than your Con). Beastmaster 2 doesn't appear to give you anything useful (Alertness is pretty useless here). You mentioned a Dire Wolf (which means you need either an extra level of Ranger or that 2nd level of Beastmaster), so assuming that then you can make a more meaningful contribution to combat (but see Elegance).

Elegance: 1.25
This is where you run into a problem. You mucked up your skills (Ranger doesn't get Open Lock as a class skill, and Trap Expert doesn't give you Open Lock). I think it's possible to get in the requirements for the SI, so I'm not giving you an automatic 1 in Use of the SI, but am instead docking you for the mistake (proof-read your builds everyone! And make sure you qualify for the SI!). You cite some of your sources, but not all. Your build flow is kind of all over. You jump between Beastmaster and Deepwarden, with no real reason. You dipped both, and don't get the benefit of some of the class features. You don't provide explanations for why you made your decisions, just that you made them.

A special note here - I judge the build as it is presented. Judges have to pour over numerous builds and check everything, you only have to do that for one build. It's not my job to cook or season your dish, that's your job. You need to call things out and specify anything you want special attention paid to. So no, you don't get to say:


because each judge might use the inclusion of an animal companion or not, to sway how they feel the build goes , this chef did not include a stat block for an animal companion thus allowing the judges to use what ever animal companion they think works best in their opinion.

and expect that to fly. At least not with me. Since you very briefly mentioned a Dire Wolf, I judged your power taking that into account.


any deductions here for lack of animal companion will see a dispute.

Dispute away, but if it's about this one thing, don't expect a score change.

Your writeup is incredibly brief, and provides very little in the way of useful information for a judge. I'd highly recommend looking back at past winners to see how the builds were put together, sourced, etc. And take a look HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287603-Handy-Tips-for-the-Iron-Chef-in-the-Playground-Noob), there are some great tips and tricks that will serve you well in future rounds.

You qualify for all the feats you took. The entry was not very easy to read. You enter into the SI very late, which is a shame, given that this SI can take advantage of early entry. It's a pretty portable build with no questionable rules elements, so there's that.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1.75
So, how did you do with the SI? Let's start with the pre-requisites. You max all required class skills. Midnight Dodge gives you a mechanical advantage that you don't take advantage of. You are certainly a member of House Kundarak. You pick up Trap Sense from Deepwarden, which is a nice flavor dip for a dwarf.

But that's it. You don't really do anything with any of the SI. And aside from a few ranks in Tumble, you don't do anything with the SI's class skills.

As far as actual class features, you do nothing with them. Nothing you have or do builds on or makes use of these abilities in any way (Armored Abjuration is actually pointless on your build). You waste 2/3 of Trap Master, and since you have no ranks in Search, you are bad at the one thing the SI is supposed to be good at (finding and disarming traps). I know the SI was a tough one this round, so I sympathize, but just having the abilities doesn't get you much. You need to build on them or enhance them in some way to score well here.

You mention that you took Beastmaster and Deepwarden to add flavor and help make the abilities of the SI shine, but nothing about the levels that you took in either class enhances the SI in any way. Deepwarden 1 allows you to qualify, but that's it.

You do take the SI to its completion, though I'm honestly not sure why.

I have to ask the dreaded, points reducing question, why did you take the SI instead of ... anything else?


Jinx - 10

Originality: 4
I have to admit, a stealthy changeling who sabotages gear, drops traps everywhere, and plays possum if confronted gave me a hearty chuckle. Martial Rogue is solid, but Wilderness Rogue and Changeling Rogue are a bit at odds (you get rid of skills that the substitution level enhance). Racial Emulation is a given with the race, and the Dark template adds some sass to your scoutin'. Quick Fingers is good, and Feign death is an odd trade for the more useful Evasion. I'd never heard of Master Pickpocket before. Bizzarely enough, you are not the only Dark Changeling Rogue/Swordsage/Trapsmith/Silver Key out of only 4 entries. While it's more interesting than your average bear, it doesn't stand out that much.

Power: 3
It should come as no surprise that you're not much of a fighter. You've got oodles of skills though, and all the fun out of combat shenanigans of the Minor Shapechange ability. Booby traps would be a great thing if you both had the time to set them up prior to combat, and qualified for Trapsmith (see elegance). Feign Death is funny enough that it gets you a tiny bump in versatility here. You've got tremendous versatility with skills, abilities, UMD, and spells. Trickery Devotion is neat, but the duplicate is going to have to scrounge up materials in order to make a trap, as any of it's duplicate gear dissipates when it sets it down. Extraordinary Trapsmith is fun, and Fabricate is handy to deploy more complex traps in a hurry. As you point out though, you are pretty limited in what you can do. I'm a bit disappointed to see no Darkstalker feat on such a skilled sneak. Your maneuvers are nice, except for Sudden Leap, which you don't qualify for (you don't have another Tiger Claw maneuver) and can't use effectively (Str based skill with no ranks in Jump). Craft Wand can get you some extra spell usage (but it seems odd here). You drop Search at level 13 with no explanation, and while your bonuses from Trapsmith and the SI keep you at parity, I question your reasoning for it.

As you point out, your power curve peaks early, and you can't really meaningfully contribute in combat encounters without ample setup time. Your weak Fort save hurts.

Elegance: 2
You take a hit here, but you knew that going in. The build is well-sourced and easy to read. I particularly appreciate that you added the bits to explain the ACF's and what things they replace, very useful. You've got a significant problem though. You don't qualify for Trapsmith (you don't have Trapfinding, you traded it away with the Changeling Rogue substitution level), and as such that means you flat-out don't qualify for the SI (because Trapsmith was the only thing giving you the required Trap Sense, you traded away Rogue's Trap Sense for Quick Fingers). You have a Swordsage dip. You enter the SI, which is an easy candidate for early entry, late. In exchange for the Dark template, you expect either Level Buyoff (an alternate system), more XP than the rest of the participants (to get to level 21), or an item (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - item dependent power). Whichever way you want to slice it, you get dinged here. I'm one of those DM's who takes the CWar approach to qualification, but you aren't really doing any form changing here that would cause you problems, so it's a wash.

The build seems pretty portable, assuming you find a DM that is ok with all dem ACFs and who finds the Dragonmark justification plausible.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 1
Unfortunately, you don't qualify for the SI, so you get an automatic 1. But that doesn't mean I can't give you some feedback.

Let's first look at the Prerequisites. You max Disable Device and Hide, and the Dark Template improves your hiding. You inexplicably drop Knowledge(Architecture & Engineering) as well as Open Lock. You pick up Dodge as a bonus feat, which is nice. If you qualified for Trapsmith, you'd cover that pesky Trap Sense requirement. And with Racial Emulation and the Dragonmark, you've got the Race and Special requirements covered.

You enhance Disable Device with your Trapsmith levels, and would get a bonus here for Search and Open Lock as well, if you hadn't scrapped them. Quick Fingers and the Sabotage rules give you an extra use of Crafty Hands, albeit a slow one (even with Quick Fingers, the good uses you talk about are full round to multiple round actions to do).

Sly Soul is mostly redundant because of Trapsmith's Spell Proof feature.

All in all, Jinx feels more like a spy than a Silver Key, but it works.


Ina - 12.75 13

Originality: 4
A patient infiltrator who steals and sells the secrets of House Kundarak and its clients certainly sounds good. Dark Changeling is a nice mix. Martial Rogue and Changeling Rogue work well together for the concept you are going for. Trap Sensitivity and Trap Engineer are great feats that combo well with the SI. Darkstalker works well with the Dark template. Persona Immersion works great with the SI, and Spymaster was actually pretty unexpected. And much to my surprise, you are not the only Dark Changeling Rogue/Swordsage/Trapsmith/Silver Key out of only 4 entries. Props for using Spymaster. There's not much here that's all that mechanically unique though.

Power: 3
So ... yeah. You're not terribly useful in a combat encounter (your party will have to pull your weight). You do have skills coming out your ears though. You make an effective trap monkey, and a great infiltrator. Your spells give you some flexibility, and your maneuvers give you some reasonable defense and utility. In a more social game, you do much better, but will still struggle in some social challenges, even with the ability to take 10 on most social skills (early on this is useful, later it becomes less useful due to a lack of skill points in things like Diplomacy or Gather Information). Your power curve peaks early, your Fort save is in the drink, and you are pretty useless when the challenge doesn't cater to your specific schtick.

Edit - Yeah, this one I derped on. (See! I can make mistakes even with only 4 dishes to sample and judge!). Jinx has more versatility than you do, but you're better at your three core things, sneaking, infiltrating, and being a trapmonkey. You should have the same Power score, I can't believe I missed this on in my review. +.25 points in Power

Elegance: 2.75
Your build is well sourced, and easy to read. You don't qualify for Trapsmith or Trap Sensitivity because you don't have Trapfinding. A generous GM might allow Wardsense to qualify, but it is rather explicitly not Trapfinding (in the same sense that the Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense is not Evasion). You enter Silver Key late, which is a shame for an SI that lends it self so readily to early entry. You dip Swordsage and Spymaster. I appreciate that you took your LA into account from the Dark template. You don't really have any questionable rules interpretations.

The build seems pretty portable, with the only quibble being that Warsense is not Trapfinding.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.25
So, how did you do with the SI itself? Well, you take Expeditious Dodge for a pre-req, but don't do anything to build on that. You have the required Trap Sense, and improve on it with Trapsmith. You max Disable Device, Hide, and Open Lock, but abandon Knowledge(Architecture & Engineering) by the wayside. You take Darkstalker to enhance Hide. You do get some mileage out of Trapsmith to improve upon the SI's schtick. Trap Engineer seems like it was made for the SI, both in flavor and mechanics. Trap Sensitivity gives you a nice extra fallback in case your Search check fails. But most of the SI is left by the wayside. You don't have any use for Armored Abjuration or Heir's Mark, and everything else is just ... there.

All told, Ina feels more like a spy than a Silver Key. While you do make some of the abilities work mechanically, the dish tastes a little off.


Barton d'Kundarak - 12.5 13

Originality: 3.5
Plain vanilla Dwarf plus Rogue. You know what's funny? You're the only one who did that. For some reason, I never see the Incarnum classes coming, and Incarnate surprise me here. You take Midnight Dodge, and have the essentia to make use of it (or a way to use its granted essentia for more useful things)! Darkstalker is handy on a sneaking frame, and Master Pickpocket is new to me. All told, you've got some expected things, and some unexpected things, and nothing really mechanically unique. I'm going to call this one mostly a wash. I like the limerick. :smallwink:

Power: 3.25
So, how do you stack up in the face of a challenge? Well, you don't contribute much in a fight, but you do at least have some sneak attack damage to supplement. You've got some decent sneaking ability (although you let your skills drop off at the end of the build). You aren't very good at finding traps, but can likely disable the ones you find. You rather inexplicably have a smattering of four different knowledge skills that you do ... nothing with? You can reliably pickpocket, sneak, and that's pretty much it. Your soulmelds do give you some nice versatility and options, so there's that. You're pretty much relagated to playing second fiddle in any combat or social challenge. You can sneak and are half of a good scout (only Listen, no spot). You take some UMD, but don't take enough to be unreliable with it. You're pretty average here, all told.

Edit - Ah yes, you did mention the Kruthik Claws. Completely missed that. +.25 to Power

Elegance: 3
The build is well-sourced, but great googly-moogly did I ever have a hard time with your skills. Everything else is easy to read. You qualify for everything that you took. Incarnate feels like a weird component to pair with the SI, and you run into skill issues due to the choice. It's a bit jarring. You avoid dips, which is nice. You enter the SI late, which is a shame because it lends itself to early entry.

It's clean, it's neat, and it's likely to be welcome at any table. Nothing super elegant about it though.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.25
Did you make me a carrot souffle? Or did you just fry up some carrots? First, the prerequisites. Midnight Dodge in conjunction with an Essentia using class is flavorful on the tongue, and seems to be a useful pairing with the SI. You put in the required Trap Sense, but only out of slavish adherence to the recipe. You keep the flavors of Disble Device and Hide strong, but Open Lock and Knowledge(Architecture & Engineering) are afterthoughts at best. You utilize the Enigma Helm, which partially obviates the usefulness of Slippery Mind. You do add Darkstalker and some Move Silently to enhance the SI, and even make an effort to add Knowledge(Arcana) from the SI, although you do nothing with it. You use Master Pickpocket to enhance another SI class skill, tantalizing the tongue. But where is Armored Abjuration? What elevated use of the SI's components do you provide? None, and the culinary world is awash in blandness.

In all seriousness, this feels like a Silver Key, but it doesn't feel like anything more than your average Silver Key. Heck, you even mention it in your build where you just list a bunch of extra dimensional spaces that any Silver Key can get into. You need to tell me why you are different. Why you make better use of the SI than any other Silver Key. And that just didn't happen here.

Edit - But I hadn't considered using Airstep Sandals to get into Rope Tricks. While those can be anywhere from 5 to 30 feet off the ground, and thus not all that difficult to get into, it's still a clever thing. Taken together with the Theft Gloves for Open Locks, I'm inclined to see this category go up a bit. +.25 to UotSI


So there you have it. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!

Last Word: I don't have much to add here. I'm surprised no one went with the various methods for improving a skillmonkey (Exemplar and the like), and really surprised that not one of the chefs took advantage of the early entry. But other than that, it was a pretty average round.

[Amphetryon]

I didn't get an entry in, so I'll speculate as to why the highlighted portion is true:


Last Word: I don't have much to add here. I'm surprised no one went with the various methods for improving a skillmonkey (Exemplar and the like), and really surprised that not one of the chefs took advantage of the early entry. But other than that, it was a pretty average round.

Based on how previous judgments have tended to go, early entry was possible at first glance, but all but certain to wind up with a deduction, due to the 1st level "Class feature" (yep, that's sarcasm) that benefits a specific casting School. In order to take advantage of that feature on-time AND enter early, one had to multiclass, with less than 3 levels in each of the two or more Classes; that small number of levels per Class is, historically, a guaranteed deduction for dipping. Granted, because Silver Key offers casters precious little else in terms of a progression, reliance on a casting Class was also likely to earn a deduction, while ignoring the benefit to Abjuration entirely would also seem destined to cost at least a half a point. This is before any concerns about 'expected entry' deductions get factored into the discussion.

Incidentally, this was the issue I hinted at before the builds were presented.

[WhamBamSam]

I didn't get an entry in, so I'll speculate as to why the highlighted portion is true:



Based on how previous judgments have tended to go, early entry was possible at first glance, but all but certain to wind up with a deduction, due to the 1st level "Class feature" (yep, that's sarcasm) that benefits a specific casting School. In order to take advantage of that feature on-time AND enter early, one had to multiclass, with less than 3 levels in each of the two or more Classes; that small number of levels per Class is, historically, a guaranteed deduction for dipping. Granted, because Silver Key offers casters precious little else in terms of a progression, reliance on a casting Class was also likely to earn a deduction, while ignoring the benefit to Abjuration entirely would also seem destined to cost at least a half a point. This is before any concerns about 'expected entry' deductions get factored into the discussion.

Incidentally, this was the issue I hinted at before the builds were presented.I'm not looking all too hard at Deadline's judgings, since I'm also planning to judge, but for my UoSI criteria, the worst you can get for not using a class feature is a lack of bonus, and it's possible to have bonuses that would result in a score above 5 but for the cap even if you ignore an ability or two if you use the others really well.

Also, in my rubric, use of Sly Soul counts for more than Armored Abjuration does, and failing to make use of early entry is going to mean pretty much everyone will get marked down for Sly Soul, as their SR will be too easy to overcome with spell effects at a CL equal to ECL when they finally get it.

It's also worth noting that people entered late for reasons which had nothing to do with Armored Abjuration. Only two of the builds are casters, and neither of them knows an Abjuration spell.

[Amphetryon]

I'm not looking all too hard at Deadline's judgings, since I'm also planning to judge, but for my UoSI criteria, the worst you can get for not using a class feature is a lack of bonus, and it's possible to have bonuses that would result in a score above 5 but for the cap even if you ignore an ability or two if you use the others really well.

Also, in my rubric, use of Sly Soul counts for more than Armored Abjuration does, and failing to make use of early entry is going to mean pretty much everyone will get marked down for Sly Soul, as their SR will be too easy to overcome with spell effects at a CL equal to ECL when they finally get it.

It's also worth noting that people entered late for reasons which had nothing to do with Armored Abjuration. Only two of the builds are casters, and neither of them knows an Abjuration spell.

My comments were made without delving into anybody's builds or the scores they'd received, just Deadline's note and, in particular, the highlighted section.

I've said it before, and I'm not trying to start an argument, but if the loss of any particular bonus prevents a build from getting a 5, I consider that identical to a penalty; if, by contrast, the bonus was not necessary in order to get a 5, it seems relatively superfluous to consider in most non-corner cases, IMO.

[Venger]

I didn't get an entry in, so I'll speculate as to why the highlighted portion is true:



Based on how previous judgments have tended to go, early entry was possible at first glance, but all but certain to wind up with a deduction, due to the 1st level "Class feature" (yep, that's sarcasm) that benefits a specific casting School. In order to take advantage of that feature on-time AND enter early, one had to multiclass, with less than 3 levels in each of the two or more Classes; that small number of levels per Class is, historically, a guaranteed deduction for dipping. Granted, because Silver Key offers casters precious little else in terms of a progression, reliance on a casting Class was also likely to earn a deduction, while ignoring the benefit to Abjuration entirely would also seem destined to cost at least a half a point. This is before any concerns about 'expected entry' deductions get factored into the discussion.

Incidentally, this was the issue I hinted at before the builds were presented.

I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment of things regarding early entry and armored abjuration. I don't think there's any way a dish could avoid both of these things at once.


I'm not looking all too hard at Deadline's judgings, since I'm also planning to judge, but for my UoSI criteria, the worst you can get for not using a class feature is a lack of bonus, and it's possible to have bonuses that would result in a score above 5 but for the cap even if you ignore an ability or two if you use the others really well.

Also, in my rubric, use of Sly Soul counts for more than Armored Abjuration does, and failing to make use of early entry is going to mean pretty much everyone will get marked down for Sly Soul, as their SR will be too easy to overcome with spell effects at a CL equal to ECL when they finally get it.

It's also worth noting that people entered late for reasons which had nothing to do with Armored Abjuration. Only two of the builds are casters, and neither of them knows an Abjuration spell.

I like this approach to UotSI better.

out of curiosity, when it's a pitfall that applies equally to everybody, do you penalize everyone who did it, reward everyone who didn't, or both?

well it looks like no one's geting any points from armored abjuration then. It truly was never possible.

[Deadline]

I like this approach to UotSI better.

Out of curiosity, better than what?


well it looks like no one's geting any points from armored abjuration then. It truly was never possible.

No one got points this round for it, because no one used it. And it's plenty possible to both enter early and benefit from armored abjuration (take some spellcaster class later on in the build).

I am pleased that the wailing and gnashing of teeth has begun though, I think this may in fact be the first time it's happened where I was a judge! :smallbiggrin:

Edit - It's also worth noting that no one really did anything of note with the SI this round either. But if you didn't cook, and you disagree with my scores, then hop in and judge! Let's see if we can finally get a round that has more judges than contestants!

Edit numero dos - If you did cook this round, please be sure to send your disputes through the Chairman as per the rules.

[Venger]

Out of curiosity, better than what?
I thought it was clear from the context, lemme rephrase:

I like the idea of the features under uotsi being treated as bonuses a dish can earn with using the feature boosting a score up from its starting floor as opposed to poor or non-use of a feature pulling one down from the starting floor.


No one got points this round for it, because no one used it. And it's plenty possible to both enter early and benefit from armored abjuration (take some spellcaster class later on in the build).

I am pleased that the wailing and gnashing of teeth has begun though, I think this may in fact be the first time it's happened where I was a judge! :smallbiggrin:

But that dish would've absolutely received criticism/deduction for not putting its spellcaster level earlier so it could "benefit" from armored abj straight away.

[Deadline]

But that dish would've absolutely received criticism/deduction for not putting its spellcaster level earlier so it could "benefit" from armored abj straight away.

That's a neat trick. What am I thinking now? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I'm not sure your assessment of the situation is accurate. I suspect I have the inside track on this one, but you never know, you might know my mind better than me. :smallwink:

[Bucky]

How early does the SI need to be entered to be considered 'early entry'?



well it looks like no one's geting any points from armored abjuration then. It truly was never possible.

Funny enough, my scrapped Assassin build would eventually have been able to use it with exactly one spell.

[Amphetryon]

That's a neat trick. What am I thinking now? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I'm not sure your assessment of the situation is accurate. I suspect I have the inside track on this one, but you never know, you might know my mind better than me. :smallwink:

Whether it's true of your mind in this round or not (I'll presume you're indicating otherwise), it is consistent with how judges have scored in enough different past rounds to be a contributing factor, even a major one, in how an informed competitor chooses to approach the SI and contest. I've yet to see anyone advise "pay no attention to how judges approached scoring in the past; it's not relevant to this round."

[Venger]

How early does the SI need to be entered to be considered 'early entry'?

Funny enough, my scrapped Assassin build would eventually have been able to use it with exactly one spell.

Prestige classes are generally designed to be entered at level 6 (xx5/prc) so that tends to be how it's used.

"early entry" in iron chef can mean entering earlier than the expected path of entry in certain dishes such as "acolyte of the skin" which assumes entry at 6, but is actually enterable earlier.


That's a neat trick. What am I thinking now? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I'm not sure your assessment of the situation is accurate. I suspect I have the inside track on this one, but you never know, you might know my mind better than me. :smallwink:

Damn my secret's out

Pretty sure it is. I mean obviously we can't know how you would've judged a dish like that had it come up, but I'm pretty sure it'd be something like what I outlined.


Whether it's true of your mind in this round or not (I'll presume you're indicating otherwise), it is consistent with how judges have scored in enough different past rounds to be a contributing factor, even a major one, in how an informed competitor chooses to approach the SI and contest. I've yet to see anyone advise "pay no attention to how judges approached scoring in the past; it's not relevant to this round."

Yeah. Even if a judge says that, a chef would be foolish not to ignore it. Patterns in judging are a pretty good indicator of what's gonna happen in future rounds.

[Deadline]

Whether it's true of your mind in this round or not (I'll presume you're indicating otherwise), it is consistent with how judges have scored in enough different past rounds to be a contributing factor, even a major one, in how an informed competitor chooses to approach the SI and contest. I've yet to see anyone advise "pay no attention to how judges approached scoring in the past; it's not relevant to this round."

You absolutely should pay attention to how any declared judge has approached scoring in the past. I'm not sure how tarring all scoring with a particular brush is useful though. How would it make sense to look at, say, PONIES criteria, look at his past scores and then declare that you just know he'd rule a specific way based purely on something that another judge did that you didn't like? :smallconfused:


Damn my secret's out

I knew it! Get out of my brain! Quickly, before you are eaten by a Grue!


Pretty sure it is. I mean obviously we can't know how you would've judged a dish like that had it come up, but I'm pretty sure it'd be something like what I outlined.

The thing is, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from. I've never done that (at least, I don't think I have), so I'm not sure which of my past rulings you are basing your prescience on. Another judge may rule differently, of course. I wouldn't know, and it's happily not my burden to do their thinking for them. (They'd be in a lot of trouble if it was) :smalltongue:

Edit - To say it another way (perhaps more clearly), I would not dock points from someone if they entered into Silver Key early, and then later acquired spellcasting that worked with Armored Abjuration. Why on earth would you think I would?

Edit the second - And yes, you can very clearly know how I would've judged a dish like that. You can, rather easily, just ask me. I don't bite, I swear!

[Venger]

You absolutely should pay attention to how any declared judge has approached scoring in the past. I'm not sure how tarring all scoring with a particular brush is useful though. How would it make sense to look at, say, PONIES criteria, look at his past scores and then declare that you just know he'd rule a specific way based purely on something that another judge did that you didn't like? :smallconfused:

Right, that's all we're saying: paying attention to past judgings is a good predictor of future rulings.


The thing is, I'm not sure where you are getting your information from. I've never done that (at least, I don't think I have), so I'm not sure which of my past rulings you are basing your prescience on. Another judge may rule differently, of course. I wouldn't know, and it's happily not my burden to do their thinking for them. (They'd be in a lot of trouble if it was) :smalltongue:

from ... you?


That's a neat trick. What am I thinking now? :smallbiggrin:
I took this to mean you would indeed have penalized a chef who di this, meaning it was in fact impossible to reap any points from armored abjuration wihout also getting a deduction from armored abjuration.

[Deadline]

I took this to mean you would indeed have penalized a chef who di this, meaning it was in fact impossible to reap any points from armored abjuration wihout also getting a deduction from armored abjuration.

Ah, that was a joke, mostly at your expense, based purely on the rather large amount of hubris it took for you to tell me that you knew what I was thinking, and that I was clearly wrong.

And I mentioned you were incorrect in the very next sentence.

Protip for the future - if you want to know what I'm thinking, all you need to do is ask. I'm not my wife, I won't make you guess until you get it right. :smallwink:

[Venger]

Ah, that was a joke, mostly at your expense, based purely on the rather large amount of hubris it took for you to tell me that you knew what I was thinking, and that I was clearly wrong.

And I mentioned you were incorrect in the very next sentence.

Protip for the future - if you want to know what I'm thinking, all you need to do is ask. I'm not my wife, I won't make you guess until you get it right. :smallwink:

Oh I see. I misunderstood your comment and thought you were agreeing with me. I just thought you'd said you would make that deduction, but I now see you meant it in jest. Thanks for explaining.

[Deadline]

Oh I see. I misunderstood your comment and thought you were agreeing with me. I just thought you'd said you would make that deduction, but I now see you meant it in jest. Thanks for explaining.

No worries, you misunderstood my meaning masked by mockery and I misunderstood your misunderstanding, leading to multiple mass misunderstandings of a mockery masked meaning. (Eat your heart out alliteration!) :smallbiggrin:

Again, if you were a chef this round and you feel like I "done you wrong", please put in a dispute with the Chair. I'm not infallible, and even though the judging is largely opinion based, I am open to the possibility of being wrong on certain things.

[Venger]

No worries, you misunderstood my meaning masked by mockery and I misunderstood your misunderstanding, leading to multiple mass misunderstandings of a mockery masked meaning. (Eat your heart out alliteration!) :smallbiggrin:

multiple mass misunderstandings of a mockery masked meaning sounds like a 3.0 spell. it just needs to belong to a wizard named Mentlyt'sk who only ever used it for one specific purpose, like cheating at charades

[Amphetryon]

You absolutely should pay attention to how any declared judge has approached scoring in the past. I'm not sure how tarring all scoring with a particular brush is useful though. How would it make sense to look at, say, PONIES criteria, look at his past scores and then declare that you just know he'd rule a specific way based purely on something that another judge did that you didn't like? :smallconfused:

I applied no tar, and held no feathers. Nor did I name any particular judges in my observations, even if they were in response to your commentary, so I'm not sure what point you're driving at by specifying PONIES' criteria; I was accusing nobody of any sort of chicanery. Finally, I made no declarations that I know, or could know, that someone would rule a specific way, so, again, I'm not sure what point you're driving at by intimating that I'd indicated some absolute certainty of foreknowledge of some judge's scores before they were posted. New judges, after all, crop up. By and large, their scores can be shown to be influenced one way or the other by the rounds and judgments that came before. As for judges who have scored rounds before, they have tendencies that can, even should, be taken into consideration, even if there's no absolute certainty, no knowing ahead of time, that a judge will slavishly stick to those tendencies.

It's still reasonable, sane policy to consider the judgments of past rounds and the criteria of those who choose to post them for the current round in constructing current entrants, in order to avoid pitfalls of scoring which have statistically shown themselves in the past 60+ rounds. If you disagree, I'd be curious as to what recommendations you'd make to a competitor which ignores this policy, and the rationale as to why ignoring it is a better idea.

[Deadline]

I applied no tar, and held no feathers. Nor did I name any particular judges in my observations, even if they were in response to your commentary, so I'm not sure what point you're driving at by specifying PONIES' criteria; I was accusing nobody of any sort of chicanery.

My apologies, I was conflating your statements and Venger's.


It's still reasonable, sane policy to consider the judgments of past rounds and the criteria of those who choose to post them for the current round in constructing current entrants, in order to avoid pitfalls of scoring which have statistically shown themselves in the past 60+ rounds. If you disagree, I'd be curious as to what recommendations you'd make to a competitor which ignores this policy, and the rationale as to why ignoring it is a better idea.

To state it again (I think you missed the bit where I agreed with you in my post), I agree with you that you should consider the way a past judge has ruled to get an idea of how they may come down on a given issue. I even mentioned it in my judging by linking to a thread created by a very wise veteran of this contest here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287603-Handy-Tips-for-the-Iron-Chef-in-the-Playground-Noob) :smallwink: (number 1 is particularly germane, and number 5 seems like something everyone should take to heart).

And my main piece of advice (I'm aware that it makes me very contrary) is one that I stole from another wise veteran of this competition - Build a character that you'd want to play, and don't sweat what the judges think of it.

[WhamBamSam]

My comments were made without delving into anybody's builds or the scores they'd received, just Deadline's note and, in particular, the highlighted section.

I've said it before, and I'm not trying to start an argument, but if the loss of any particular bonus prevents a build from getting a 5, I consider that identical to a penalty; if, by contrast, the bonus was not necessary in order to get a 5, it seems relatively superfluous to consider in most non-corner cases, IMO.I understand. I was just saying that in the case of this particular SI, I think Sly Soul is the feature where earliness of entry is the most relevant.

That's fair enough. As I said though, it's possible to exceed 5 in my UoSI rubric without using all of a SI's abilities. When last I judged back in the Witchborn Binder round Vedo D'Nigh didn't get points for prereq use and only got partial credit for the capstone ability, and still managed to get a 5, with a quarter point of cushion. I think my rubric for this round technically leaves enough points on the table that you could theoretically get a 5 without credit for Armored Abjuration or Sly Soul, due to the number of distinct categories. The categories are hard to be impressive in, though, and due to their number I'm trying to be a bit more of a stickler than usual, so we'll see, I guess.


I like this approach to UotSI better.

out of curiosity, when it's a pitfall that applies equally to everybody, do you penalize everyone who did it, reward everyone who didn't, or both?

well it looks like no one's geting any points from armored abjuration then. It truly was never possible.Since my UoSI score starts from 1 and works its way up, I would apply the bonus to whoever dodges the pitfall. If they dodge it exceptionally gracefully, then they might get credit for going "above and beyond." Originality could be something of a different matter, since I grade it with a more standard "start from 3 work up or down," but it sort of depends. I might do one, the other, both, or neither. For instance, back in Witchborn Binder, I let Totemist and Incarnate slide with no bonus or penalty, and I've generally done the same for Human - including Azurin, Silverbrows, Strongheart Halflings, and in the case of Thrall of Orcus, Vashar (it pained me not to penalize them, I hate Vashar) - with non race-specific SIs. I might have started handing out penalties if a bunch of people in Witchborn Binder had, say, been using Tiefling Incarnate or Halfling Totemist specifically, though.


But that dish would've absolutely received criticism/deduction for not putting its spellcaster level earlier so it could "benefit" from armored abj straight away.Speaking, again, only for myself. Armored Abjuration doesn't strike me as an ability you need to use right away. I've generally only graded on early entry when late entry causes an ability to not really work. Thrall of Orcus had an ability based on Cause Fear, so to get points you had to enter when you were still fighting enemies with ≤5 HD. Similarly, Witchborn Binder had an ability based on Dispel Magic, so you did better if you were hitting Meldshaper Level 10 not too long after equivalent CR casters hit CL 10.


How early does the SI need to be entered to be considered 'early entry'?In the context of this conversation, early entry means entering at 4th level, as 3rd is the earliest that Trap Sense is available as far as I know. If someone figured out a way to get Trap Sense at level 1 and enter at 2nd that would be "early entry" in the more conventional sense of the expression (more akin to using Sanctum Spell or Heighten cheese to enter a caster PrC early, though not necessarily with that sort of negative connotation).



Anyhow, I should probably disentangle myself from meta-discussion of judging and try to get down to some actual judging, now that I've gotten through the Qual exam I was shirking my serious internet business to study for (I think it went well, knock on wood).

[Venger]

Since my UoSI score starts from 1 and works its way up, I would apply the bonus to whoever dodges the pitfall. If they dodge it exceptionally gracefully, then they might get credit for going "above and beyond." Originality could be something of a different matter, since I grade it with a more standard "start from 3 work up or down," but it sort of depends. I might do one, the other, both, or neither. For instance, back in Witchborn Binder, I let Totemist and Incarnate slide with no bonus or penalty, and I've generally done the same for Human - including Azurin, Silverbrows, Strongheart Halflings, and in the case of Thrall of Orcus, Vashar (it pained me not to penalize them, I hate Vashar) - with non race-specific SIs. I might have started handing out penalties if a bunch of people in Witchborn Binder had, say, been using Tiefling Incarnate or Halfling Totemist specifically, though.

Sounds good to me. Nobody likes Vashar. I swear I forget they even exist half the time. still not as dumb as Jerren though.


Speaking, again, only for myself. Armored Abjuration doesn't strike me as an ability you need to use right away. I've generally only graded on early entry when late entry causes an ability to not really work. Thrall of Orcus had an ability based on Cause Fear, so to get points you had to enter when you were still fighting enemies with ≤5 HD. Similarly, Witchborn Binder had an ability based on Dispel Magic, so you did better if you were hitting Meldshaper Level 10 not too long after equivalent CR casters hit CL 10.
Right, I agree with you. That's what I was saying, I don't think deducting in that instance would make sense for the reasons you outlined.



Anyhow, I should probably disentangle myself from meta-discussion of judging and try to get down to some actual judging, now that I've gotten through the Qual exam I was shirking my serious internet business to study for (I think it went well, knock on wood).

but meta-judging discussion is the best part of iron chef

good luck with your exam.

[Sagetim]

So we can say we did. Duh.

Eh, I suppose I'll try judging things this round. I submitted last round, might as well try things from the other side. So dance, chefs, dance for my amusement and relinquish unto me your builds.

edit: Oh, wait, I'm way too late for that, aren't I?

[A_S]

edit: Oh, wait, I'm way too late for that, aren't I?
Naw, judges have until the 30th.

I'm still hoping to get scores in, though the demon Real Life may interfere. We'll see.