Conjuration Spells for a Summoner?

[Jarmen4u]

Hey all, I'm currently building a Malconvoker for an upcoming game. Right now, I'm at Monk1/Wiz5(Conj)/Malconvoker8. I would have made it 9, but the DM changed his mind about the starting level shortly after I made the build.

Anyway, right now, I'm looking to put my spell list together, but I'm not sure what spells to pick up to compliment my build other than all the Summon Monster ones. I have a few ideas, but nothing for certain. I'm specializing in Conjuration, and my banned schools (for now) are Illusion and Necromancy. (If those are bad choices, I may change them; the campaign won't be starting for a while.)

I'm not sure if I should go with BFC spells, or buff spells, or what. I appreciate any help you guys have for me.

[Extra Anchovies]

Evocation and Necromancy is a better pair of banned schools. Your damage output comes from summons already

Why the monk level? Without it you can start with Malconvoker maxed out, and taking Wizard at 1st level lets you take Nexus Method. It's a dragmag feat that lets you spontaneously cast Summon Monster in the same way a cleric spontaneously casts Cure, and that adds a few feats to the list you can pick from at level 5 (ctrl-F "nexus" here (http://d20worldofgreyhawk.yuku.com/topic/370/Greyhawk-Regional-Feats-Final-Version)).

I recommend BFC only if your summons are somehow immune to the BFC (e.g. summon stuff with blindsight and go to town with fog cloud and its higher-level cousins). Otherwise buffs would probably be more useful.

Also, take a look at the Conjuror Variants here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants); Rapid Summoning is really strong for a feat-equivalent ability (just take Obtain Familiar if you want your pet back).

[Jarmen4u]

Evocation and Necromancy is a better pair of banned schools. Your damage output comes from summons already

Why the monk level? Without it you can start with Malconvoker maxed out, and taking Wizard at 1st level lets you take Nexus Method. It's a dragmag feat that lets you spontaneously cast Summon Monster in the same way a cleric spontaneously casts Cure, and that adds a few feats to the list you can pick from at level 5 (ctrl-F "nexus" here (http://d20worldofgreyhawk.yuku.com/topic/370/Greyhawk-Regional-Feats-Final-Version)).

I recommend BFC only if your summons are somehow immune to the BFC (e.g. summon stuff with blindsight and go to town with fog cloud and its higher-level cousins). Otherwise buffs would probably be more useful.

Also, take a look at the Conjuror Variants here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants); Rapid Summoning is really strong for a feat-equivalent ability (just take Obtain Familiar if you want your pet back).

It's probably not the most optimized thing in the world, but I took the dip (and Ascetic Mage) to get the Cha to AC, as my charisma mod is +10.

I'm actually taking that Conjurer variant, that's what I meant by Conjuration spec, sorry.

Nexus Method seems decent, except I'm already losing the bonus feat from the Conjuration variant, for the Augment and +2 to DC to dispel. Also, it gives me spontaneous summoning at -1 spell level, which is only slightly weaker IMO.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's probably not the most optimized thing in the world, but I took the dip (and Ascetic Mage) to get the Cha to AC, as my charisma mod is +10.

What are you doing playing a Wizard with a Charisma of 30? And what race are you?

[Jarmen4u]

What are you doing playing a Wizard with a Charisma of 30? And what race are you?

My Int is 31, I'm playing in a game with free LA, so I have a couple templates, and I have a couple items that boost scores. I have a high charisma for Planar Binding bluff checks, among other things.

EDIT: I apologize for being vague about my character, but I've already seen another thread on here from another player in my game seeking build advice, and I don't want the others to necessarily figure out all my secrets as I know they lurk these forums.

[Jarmen4u]

Bump for great justice

[Brova]

Banned Schools/Specialization: Ban evocation, because it is bad unless you are optimizing pretty crazy hard core. Ban enchantment or illusion because they both exist exclusively for will based save or dies and crazy power (dominate or charm and shadow conjuration, respectively). Take two levels of Master Specialist, unless you want spontaneous divination. You've already got spell focus (conjuration), so it's power for nothing.

Build Progression: I don't really like Malconvoker. You give up half a level of casting to get an extra creature when using the summon monster line. That sounds impressive until you realize you could just be casting the next summon monster spell and get more creatures that way. Master Specialist or Thaumaturgist will often be a better choice. You do need to pick up lesser planar ally somewhere for Thaumaturgist, which basically means burning a feat on arcane disciple. I recommend dropping the Monk level too, as giving up 7th level spells doesn't seem worth it. Especially because summoning relies so much on lower level creatures.

Anyway, I think that if you want to build a summoner specifically, you're probably better off looking at Cleric. You get domains for random and crazy power, plus DMM: Twin. A conjuration focused Wizard should be leveraging the advantages of his class. Namely, battlefield control and planar binding.

[Jarmen4u]

Banned Schools/Specialization: Ban evocation, because it is bad unless you are optimizing pretty crazy hard core. Ban enchantment or illusion because they both exist exclusively for will based save or dies and crazy power (dominate or charm and shadow conjuration, respectively). Take two levels of Master Specialist, unless you want spontaneous divination. You've already got spell focus (conjuration), so it's power for nothing.

Build Progression: I don't really like Malconvoker. You give up half a level of casting to get an extra creature when using the summon monster line. That sounds impressive until you realize you could just be casting the next summon monster spell and get more creatures that way. Master Specialist or Thaumaturgist will often be a better choice. You do need to pick up lesser planar ally somewhere for Thaumaturgist, which basically means burning a feat on arcane disciple. I recommend dropping the Monk level too, as giving up 7th level spells doesn't seem worth it. Especially because summoning relies so much on lower level creatures.

Anyway, I think that if you want to build a summoner specifically, you're probably better off looking at Cleric. You get domains for random and crazy power, plus DMM: Twin. A conjuration focused Wizard should be leveraging the advantages of his class. Namely, battlefield control and planar binding.

Makes sense. I was mostly going Malconvoker for the planar binding stuff, and brought the summoning into the build for combat strength. As above, I put a lot into the bluff for me to win over whatever I bind.

[Brova]

Makes sense. I was mostly going Malconvoker for the planar binding stuff, and brought the summoning into the build for combat strength. As above, I put a lot into the bluff for me to win over whatever I bind.

Malconvoker doesn't really give you that much for planar binding specifically. The big deals are "+2 HD worth of binding" and "bonus on Cha check". The bonus HD is nice, but I don't think it gets you any particularly nice creatures - that is, I don't really think there's anything great at 14 HD compared to 12 HD. Could be wrong though. Also worth noting that the lost spell level probably matters more than the bonus hit dice. Enhanced planar binding is 14 HD, while regular greater planar binding is 18. The bonus on the Cha check is essentially meaningless. planar binding is a downtime spell, you can just hit whatever you're trying to bind with debuffs until it gives up.

[Jarmen4u]

Okay, well I guess I'm going about this the wrong way, or maybe I'm just not understanding the Malconvoker class very well. Assuming that I want to take 9 levels in it, what should I be using it for? I assumed it would complement a summoner-type conjuration wizard.

[Brova]

Okay, well I guess I'm going about this the wrong way, or maybe I'm just not understanding the Malconvoker class very well. Assuming that I want to take 9 levels in it, what should I be using it for? I assumed it would complement a summoner-type conjuration wizard.

Well the problem is that you give up a caster level. That sucks. And the things you get for it are basically "treat this spell as if it was higher level", which is exactly what you gave up for being a Malconvoker. You're probably better off going Master Specialist into Archmage (or something) if you want to be a specialized Conjurer.

[Jarmen4u]

Well the problem is that you give up a caster level. That sucks. And the things you get for it are basically "treat this spell as if it was higher level", which is exactly what you gave up for being a Malconvoker. You're probably better off going Master Specialist into Archmage (or something) if you want to be a specialized Conjurer.

Right. So would I be better off just going a normal spellcasting class and keep the high cha score for untrained bluff checks when I bind something, or what? I'm not too familiar with using planar binding, so I want to do it right.

[Brova]

Right. So would I be better off just going a normal spellcasting class and keep the high cha score for untrained bluff checks when I bind something, or what? I'm not too familiar with using planar binding, so I want to do it right.

Pretty much. planar binding is a downtime spell, so you can just clobber stuff with temporary debuffs if you feel bad about your Cha check. As far as a high Cha score, I would probably just leave it at whatever you can get without pumping too much in. So probably 12ish base + eagle's splendor + wish inherent bonuses.

Now, the actual use of planar binding is a complex question. In no small part because that spell is totally nuts. How you use it should depend heavily on how optimized the game is. If you expect other people to be showing up with random mundane builds, use it for a meatshield and the occasional utility spell. If you expect the rest of the party to be optimized full casters, grab a couple of good minions (genies are nice for save or die spam) and throw down +5 inherent bonuses for everyone. If you expect things to be really off the deep end, summon an Efreet, and have it use its wishes to cast greater planar binding or make items.

Classes are in a similar situation. You can't really go wrong with a couple of Incantatrix levels (though in that case I would suggest not being a specialist), but Master Specialist, Shadowcraft Mage, maybe Mage of the Arcane Order, and even Loremaster are all reasonable choices at varying levels of power.

[Jarmen4u]

Well I guess to get back on topic: assuming I'm trying to build around Summon Monster etc, what are other good spells to take to complement the summoning combat style?

[Necroticplague]

There's a feat that lets you make a will save to slap the Pseudonatural template on your summons. Mastery of Madness, I think. Also Ashbound and Greenbound summoning, thoguh I'm not sure if that applies to SM (Might only be SNA, can't remember).

[Jarmen4u]

There's a feat that lets you make a will save to slap the Pseudonatural template on your summons. Mastery of Madness, I think. Also Ashbound and Greenbound summoning, thoguh I'm not sure if that applies to SM (Might only be SNA, can't remember).

Not too sure about that first bit, but those are definitely SNA only.

[atemu1234]

Pretty much. planar binding is a downtime spell, so you can just clobber stuff with temporary debuffs if you feel bad about your Cha check. As far as a high Cha score, I would probably just leave it at whatever you can get without pumping too much in. So probably 12ish base + eagle's splendor + wish inherent bonuses.

Now, the actual use of planar binding is a complex question. In no small part because that spell is totally nuts. How you use it should depend heavily on how optimized the game is. If you expect other people to be showing up with random mundane builds, use it for a meatshield and the occasional utility spell. If you expect the rest of the party to be optimized full casters, grab a couple of good minions (genies are nice for save or die spam) and throw down +5 inherent bonuses for everyone. If you expect things to be really off the deep end, summon an Efreet, and have it use its wishes to cast greater planar binding or make items.

Classes are in a similar situation. You can't really go wrong with a couple of Incantatrix levels (though in that case I would suggest not being a specialist), but Master Specialist, Shadowcraft Mage, maybe Mage of the Arcane Order, and even Loremaster are all reasonable choices at varying levels of power.

Eh, Incantatrix is a little backloaded. Malconvoker is pretty frontloaded, IIRC. I think...

[DrMartin]

if you really want to keep the dip, do it as an unarmed swordsage instead of monk, and grab one of the (ex) shadow hand maneuvers that allows you to teleport. Now you have a way out of an antimagic field, at least. he wording in ascetic mage is vague enough to work not only with the monk's ac bonus but with any "wisdom to AC" feature.

[Extra Anchovies]

Just realized a thing: Why not use Carmendine Monk (or Kung Fu Genius, I forget which is easier to qualify for) and get Int to AC instead of Cha?

[Jarmen4u]

Just realized a thing: Why not use Carmendine Monk (or Kung Fu Genius, I forget which is easier to qualify for) and get Int to AC instead of Cha?

I dunno, I guess it's because my Int and Cha are pretty much the same value, but I could potentially dump my Cha item and take that feat instead.

[Lerondiel]

Remember summoning is a platform not the final result.

Victory comes from buffing the summoned creatures, and buffing needs caster levels.

Start with Wiz3/Master Specialist 10/Archmage1(reach spell)
plus
Spell Focus Conj
Spell Focus Trans
Chain Spell
Imbued Summoning

and metamagic feats such as:
Metamagic School Focus
Residual Magic
Arcane Thesis, etc
(Southern Magician if your DM is crazy enough to let you dip Sacred Exorcist for Divine Metamagic)

At 14th level you're popping out creatures as a swift action 3/day with +16HP, and Chain Polymorph them into Cave Trolls before they bite/claw/claw/rend/rake/rake/daze/etc.

So the HD of the summoned creature becomes the priority for even better Polymorph options.
For going on the attack you want Extended metamagic on your summons so you can build up 14 creatures before dropping a ton of buffs and sending them in while you drink lemonade.

And don't drop Illusion. The only thing better than a great horde is one that's Grt Invisible :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wear a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) instead of taking a level of Monk, the belt gives you the entire AC Bonus class feature of a Monk, including adding your Wisdom bonus to your to AC (or Int if you have Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk). Neither of those feats require you to actually have a level of Monk anyway.

[Jarmen4u]

So... not to sound like a jackass, but would it be possible to actually get some spell suggestions, aka what I originally made this thread for?

I'm not really sure what I should fill my spellbook with to complement my summoning spells, outside of the standard cat's grace/bull's strength etc spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You generally want to keep Illusion, and always ban Evocation and/or Enchantment. Evocation can be replaced by Conjuration for dealing damage, and (Greater) Shadow Evocation for everything else. Enchantment is the least useful school because blanket immunity to the whole school is so widespread, the higher level you get the less likely you are to even have a chance at affecting a creature with it. Necromancy is a decent choice for a prohibited school, though it does offer a few unique effects that can't be replaced by other schools.

In any case, trade your Wizard 5 bonus feat for the Magic domain's power per Complete Champion, so you can still use wands, staffs, and scrolls of spells from your prohibited school.

As for what spells to get, this handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ngm0km12kkruce778r4c9hgfb0&topic=394.0) is pretty much the best one you'll find, it even has sample prepared spell lists and items at 5th, 10th, and 15th level. Generally you want lots of area effect crowd controls and debuffs, just be sure to get a few to attack each type of saving throw, plus some no-save spells like Solid/Freezing Fog. Certain wall spells (of smoke, of sand) can be cast on an opponent's space to immediately subject them to the wall's effect.

[Brova]

So... not to sound like a jackass, but would it be possible to actually get some spell suggestions, aka what I originally made this thread for?

I'm not really sure what I should fill my spellbook with to complement my summoning spells, outside of the standard cat's grace/bull's strength etc spells.

So spells. First, I don't think (as I've said) you want too many summons. Probably two or three in your top two levels for utility and combat, plus a summon monster IV for the ability to get wide variety of minor utility spells. Beyond that, there are a bunch of sweet spells in conjuration specifically. You can't really go wrong with grease, glitterdust, stinking cloud, evard's black tentacles, cloudkill, and acid fog. You might consider mage armor the cost ranges from low to nonexistent, and a few marginal points of AC are occasionally helpful. For other spells, check out this list (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31962) for good combat spells. Of particular note are the various ability damage spells. While popping a guy for 3d6 damage to a random stat is not generally useful, a lot of creatures just die if you hit the right stat. For example, Dragons and dexterity.

The final note on spells is that some of your best conjurations are actually illusions, specifically the shadow conjuration line. There are a lot of spells in conjuration that would be freakin' deadly in combat but for long casting times. Fortunately, WotC was kind enough to print a spell that completely ignores those limitations. There's a lot of utility to mine there. For example shadow conjuration calling major creation is a lot like forcecage, but lower level. Or you could create huge amounts of poisons or alchemist's fire. If you shell out the feats, Uncanny Forethought works too.


You generally want to keep Illusion, and always ban Evocation and/or Enchantment. Evocation can be replaced by Conjuration for dealing damage, and (Greater) Shadow Evocation for everything else. Enchantment is the least useful school because blanket immunity to the whole school is so widespread, the higher level you get the less likely you are to even have a chance at affecting a creature with it. Necromancy is a decent choice for a prohibited school, though it does offer a few unique effects that can't be replaced by other schools.

I generally disagree about enchantment as a banned school choice, but planar binding captures a lot of the utility of the charm and dominate lines. You could ban necromancy or you could not. Very few of the effects it has are unique, but it has a wide variety of effects. It's a good choice for specializing (because you can put a variety of utility in your specialist slots) but also a good choice for banning (because you don't lose anything critical).


In any case, trade your Wizard 5 bonus feat for the Magic domain's power per Complete Champion, so you can still use wands, staffs, and scrolls of spells from your prohibited school.

If you're going to take a 5th level Wizard variant from Complete Champion, don't waste it on getting a domain's granted power. Spontaneous divination is right there and your party Rogue can make the abuse magic device check to pop whatever spell you need out of a wand.

[Nohwl]

Well I guess to get back on topic: assuming I'm trying to build around Summon Monster etc, what are other good spells to take to complement the summoning combat style?

there's a summon monster variant in the dmg, where you summon the same monster every time. off the top of my head, it's page 37. since they're the same monsters, what you could do is early entry into war weaver (you can enter after 3 with sanctum spell) to pick up an ability that lets you buff your summons all at once right after they've been summoned. jake had an excellent handbook on weaver (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0). since you're a conjurer, if you pick the rapid conjuration variant, you can summon as a standard action and then buff them and the party with your move action. don't forget to grab invisible spell to make all of them invisible and summon elemental because it's great.

[Gnorman]

If you scroll down to the "Strategizing Your Summons" section of this handy dandy and extremely well-written guide to summoning fiends (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6320.0), you'll find some spell suggestions. Mostly it focuses on getting the most out of your summons, so primarily buffs. But the wonderful part about playing a Malconvoker is that you're still a damn wizard (and a conjurer at that), so you should also focus on BFC spells like Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, etc. You're a wizard. Force multipliers (and, by implication, dividers) are your stock in trade.

I would also mention that it's quite easy to optimize Charisma and Charisma-related checks with things like Circlet of Persuasion, Mask of Lies, or Admiral's Bicorne. So easy, in fact, that it may be better to reallocate that insanely high Charisma score into Intelligence, Constitution, or Dexterity (and ideally in that order). Just a minor suggestion.