Find Steed

[DracoKnight]

Question:

The spell Find Steed, would you allow the player's Steed to take the form of a Wyrmling (whose size is Large), or a Wyvern? It says in the spell description that the DM can allow other creatures.

[hymer]

Generally speaking no. In the cases when I might allow something of the sort, I'd make it clear that this is not how Find Steed should be expected to function in other campaigns.
The case where I might allow it, is when the PCs already have access to such steeds/allies, and are sufficiently powerful that it likely won't tip the balance to allow it.

[spartan_ah]

Depends on the level of the character.
It would have to be a high one, and really depends on the campaign.
I am a 12th level half orc paladin and I convinced my DM for a dire wolg

[coredump]

Great ruling I read
Level 2 spell gives CR 1/2 steed
lvl 3 gives CR 1
4 gives 2
5 gives 4

[Daishain]

You are talking about a significant boost in mobility and power. I would recommend not allowing either save under one of two conditions: (1) Paladin is high level, and the default steed options are entirely useless against the threats he/she faces (2) Campaign is high power, and other characters have equatable boosts.

If you just want to give your pally a cool flying mount, and have reason not to be concerned about the early fly speed, Pegasi and Drakkensteeds are both traditional paladin mounts that would not be that much more mechanically powerful than the warhorse.

[Occasional Sage]

If you just want to give your pally a cool flying mount, and have reason not to be concerned about the early fly speed, Pegasi and Drakkensteeds are both traditional paladin mounts that would not be that much more mechanically powerful than the warhorse.

Other, of course, than flying. Which is rad.

[DracoKnight]

My DM and I came up with a compromise :D

Siege Drake
Large dragon, unaligned
Armor Class 15 (natural armor)
Hit Points 76 (10d10 + 21)
Speed 30ft., fly 30ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
18 (+4) 12 (+1) 18 (+4) 5 (-3) 10 (+0) 7 (-2)
Skills Athletics +6, Perception +2, Stealth +3
Damage Resistances Fire
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive perception 12
Languages understands Draconic but can't speak it
Challenge 2 (450XP)

Actions
Multiattack. The drake attacks three times, twice with its claws and once with its tail.

Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
Hit: 8 (1d8+4) slashing damage.

Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target.
Hit: 7 (1d6+4) slashing damage.

[Daishain]

Ok, more power than I would have been comfortable granting, but have fun raiding the skies with that thing.

[Occasional Sage]

What level is your Paladin?

[Mechaviking]

I had a Rhino that I thought was pretty cool :D

[jkat718]

A Paladin in my party wanted a yak as his mount, so I let him track one down and tame it, and then have the "fey spirit" of Find Steed inhabit its body, rather than form a new one. Same thing, mechanically, but he got his yak. :smallsmile: I've been using the Giant Goat stats from the MM.

[Inevitability]

The paladin in my campaign gets a mount based on the terrain he's in. Grasslands give a horse, swamps a crocodile, mountainous areas a giant goat... But more exotic options, too. He once used it on a flying island and got a giant eagle. Another time, he used Find Steed in a cave infused with necrotic energy and got a skeletal warhorse.

[Coidzor]

The paladin in my campaign gets a mount based on the terrain he's in. Grasslands give a horse, swamps a crocodile, mountainous areas a giant goat... But more exotic options, too. He once used it on a flying island and got a giant eagle. Another time, he used Find Steed in a cave infused with necrotic energy and got a skeletal warhorse.

Now that's a fun idea.

[DracoKnight]

What level is your Paladin?

It's not for a paladin. I'm working with my DM on a Dragonmark, that I was intending to use on a Warlock.

Mark of the Summoner:

Least: Friends, Find Familiar.
Lesser: Find Steed
Greater: Conjure Elementals

[coredump]

It's not for a paladin. I'm working with my DM on a Dragonmark, that I was intending to use on a Warlock.

Mark of the Summoner:

Least: Friends, Find Familiar.
Lesser: Find Steed
Greater: Conjure Elementals

So...... what level is your Dragonmark?

[PhantomRenegade]

My DM and I came up with a compromise :D

Siege Drake
snip.[/SIZE]That is bonkers insane.

[Shining Wrath]

It sort-of makes sense that the mount ought to scale with the Paladin's level; perhaps more powerful fey answer the call of a more renowned Paladin.

Maybe let him get bigger / better mounts with more powerful spell slots, as has been suggested. You might also reduce the duration; more powerful fey spirits don't stick around for as long.

Oh, and I offer my houserule for consideration: the only spells that can be shared with the Steed are those found on the Paladin spell list. That way bards taking Find Steed, or multiclass Paladin / X, can't cast problematic spells and get them on themselves and the mount, too.

[Daishain]

It sort-of makes sense that the mount ought to scale with the Paladin's level; perhaps more powerful fey answer the call of a more renowned Paladin.

Maybe let him get bigger / better mounts with more powerful spell slots, as has been suggested. You might also reduce the duration; more powerful fey spirits don't stick around for as long.
Oh aye, I told the paladin in my last campaign that his mount would increase its health according to its hit die every time he gained a level past L5, just so it had a chance in hell of surviving the tough fights I was sticking the pair into. Had we been going past level 8, I probably would have granted more.

P.S. Duration is instantaneous, that mount sticks around forever by default. If you plan to introduce a set duration, what kind of time frame did you have in mind?

[Naanomi]

The spell already risks being better than the Beastmaster subclass, in wouldn't do much to it. If they want a better mount than the one they can pray into existence with a low level spell slot, go get one trained

[Shining Wrath]

Oh aye, I told the paladin in my last campaign that his mount would increase its health according to its hit die every time he gained a level past L5, just so it had a chance in hell of surviving the tough fights I was sticking the pair into. Had we been going past level 8, I probably would have granted more.

P.S. Duration is instantaneous, that mount sticks around forever by default. If you plan to introduce a set duration, what kind of time frame did you have in mind?

Perhaps 24 hours divided by CR? Get CR 6 wyrmling, keep it for four hours with a level 5 slot.

[Daishain]

The spell already risks being better than the Beastmaster subclass, in wouldn't do much to it. If they want a better mount than the one they can pray into existence with a low level spell slot, go get one trained
The paladin's mount feature is traditionally a battle companion that remains with said paladin throughout their career. This edition's version of it makes keeping the paladin mount around without it being slaughtered in the first round of combat incredibly difficult. (The wizard familiar has a similar problem, though for somewhat different reasons) Replacing the mount with a tougher critter that the pally can train does solve that mechanical problem, but then in most cases you just have a dumb animal rather than a companion, which misses half the point. You could give the go ahead for the paladin to obtain an intelligent mount capable of filling the companion role without a magical boost from the spell, but that's opening up a whole new can of problems as most of the choices there are incredibly powerful, and the other players will be wondering why they can't do the same if the pally mount thing isn't tied to the spell anymore.

It is far simpler to make minor tweaks to the existing spell to allow some kind of scaling, and at the same time far easier for the DM to be able to keep that scaling from being abused.


P.S. Worrying about overshadowing a broken subclass isn't exactly good reason to hold back in my opinion. Just more incentive to get BM fixed.


Perhaps 24 hours divided by CR? Get CR 6 wyrmling, keep it for four hours with a level 5 slot.
That could work

[Naanomi]

Very little scales in this edition, and no non-cantrip do. If it is going to scale it needs to do it with increased spell slots not just 'automatically'

And traditionally paladin mounts have died easily, in 2e a paladin mount wasn't much more than a good quality horse, and unless optimized 3e wasn't much better (though they were resummonable so it didn't matter so much, just like the spell). Not sure how 4Th handled it.

They should be used for mounted combat to improve the paladin, not to make the class a pet class with an independently Combat capable mount. The spell shouldn't turn a paladin into a better summoner than a conjurer or Druid.

[Daishain]

Very little scales in this edition, and no non-cantrip do. If it is going to scale it needs to do it with increased spell slots not just 'automatically'

And traditionally paladin mounts have died easily, in 2e a paladin mount wasn't much more than a good quality horse, and unless optimized 3e wasn't much better (though they were resummonable so it didn't matter so much, just like the spell). Not sure how 4Th handled it.

They should be used for mounted combat to improve the paladin, not to make the class a pet class with an independently Combat capable mount. The spell shouldn't turn a paladin into a better summoner than a conjurer or Druid.
I don't know about 2e, but in 3e, the mount's HD, Strength, AC, and Intelligence all scaled, along with a number of special abilities. And that's IF one did not take one of several feats which improved the thing (remember that feats were 'cheaper' in that edition) Without said feats, it was never a real powerhouse, but it did keep up to some degree, which is all I really advocate.

[MaxWilson]

The paladin's mount feature is traditionally a battle companion that remains with said paladin throughout their career. This edition's version of it makes keeping the paladin mount around without it being slaughtered in the first round of combat incredibly difficult.

That's what Mounted Combatant is for. It makes even a standard warhorse incredibly durable, while giving the paladin superior offense against medium foes, superior mobility, and a free knockdown attack with good damage. It's an excellent feat for a paladin.

[Daishain]

That's what Mounted Combatant is for. It makes even a standard warhorse incredibly durable, while giving the paladin superior offense against medium foes, superior mobility, and a free knockdown attack with good damage. It's an excellent feat for a paladin.
Spending a feat should be a matter of expanding your options rather than allowing you to make use of a standard class feature. If otherwise, that, my friend, is called a feat tax, and it is something that we've mostly gotten rid of in 5E, for good reason.

A feat tax in 5E is especially egregious, due to how 'expensive' the things are.

I have no problem with mounted combatant as it is. Its a nice feat. But no one should feel like they have to take it.

[GiantOctopodes]

I don't know about 2e, but in 3e, the mount's HD, Strength, AC, and Intelligence all scaled, along with a number of special abilities. And that's IF one did not take one of several feats which improved the thing (remember that feats were 'cheaper' in that edition) Without said feats, it was never a real powerhouse, but it did keep up to some degree, which is all I really advocate.

This is true, but remember, so did all spells. Fireball did more damage the higher your level, magic missile cast more missiles, etc etc etc, all without requiring higher level slots. That's the way magic in general worked in 3e, and that's not the way it works in 5e. Having the mount scale with what spell level slot it is cast out of is consistent with all other spellcasting in 5e, having it autoscale would make it the only spell to do so.

Personally, I'm a fan of doing one of two things- either having it be an area appropriate mount (for players who don't want to be that involved) or having it be something where the Paladin must track down and tame any creatures he wishes to have appear. He then engages in a ritual wherein he gives the creature a Truename and introduces it to the fey spirits. Subsequently, he can cast the spell while saying the Truename of the desired creature, and the fey spirits will take that form, allowing him to build up a "stable" of CR appropriate creatures over time, and making find steed no different from just going out and finding a better mount, just with the advantage that they needn't always be around and can be summoned anywhere, any time and swapped out freely.

I do also want to point out that by default Find Steed only works with animals. Wyverns and Wyrmlings are Dragons. It does not work with them any more than it works with Storm Giants, nor does it work with Pegasi (Celestials). Giant Eagles are about as good as it gets by RAW for flying mounts. Of course, in a campaign wherein I was the DM, I might be willing to allow non-animals, but not for free, some work would be required to make that happen as well.

[MaxWilson]

I have no problem with mounted combatant as it is. Its a nice feat. But no one should feel like they have to take it.

You don't have to take it of course. You can be a paladin who never casts Find Steed at all, and you can be a paladin whose steed stays behind while the paladin dungeon-crawls through 5' wide tunnels where the horse won't easily fit, and you can be a paladin who pays for barding for his steed to give it more armor and then lets it Dodge, and you can be a paladin who uses his steed for mobility while accepting the fact that it will occasionally die and have to be resummoned. But Mounted Combatant has a lot of benefits, and it works better for a paladin because he gets a free warhorse-or-maybe-better and doesn't have to go shopping for a new one at 400 gp every time it "dies". There's a nice synergy there between paladins and Mounted Combatant, just as there's a nice synergy between Rangers and Sharpshooter, or between Aarakocra and Mobile.