Bless Concentration Blues

[bardo]

Greetings! I'm looking for a cure for a bad case of the Bless Concentration Blues, perhaps you could help.

I'm playing in a campaign that migrated from 3.5 to 5th edition not too long ago, only played a couple of sessions of 5th edition so far. The party includes two fighters, a paladin, a wizard, and my character: a 9th level lore bard, 1st level life cleric. My character is the primary healer, support, what-have-you. Out of combat the character is a lot of fun to play. I enjoy exploring the liberties one can take with a high charisma, a fine variety of skills, flexible morals, and some charm spells to get out of trouble if (when) I take it too far.

The blues start on the first round of combat. I cast Bless. With three melee characters in the party there are so many attack rolls that bless turns a miss into a hit every round. If we all have to save against some effect, it's quite likely that bless will turn a failed save into a pass for someone. Bless is such a powerful buff that I find it hard to justify (to myself, as well as to the party) using concentration for anything else. I cast bless, heal as needed, maneuver into position to react with counterspell and cutting words, occasionally throw a dissonant whisper. It's efficient. It works. It gets monotonous and boring.

I would imagine clerics run into the same situation. Which spells can compete for concentration with bless? When bless wins for concentration, which non-concentration spells are useful in combat?

[HarrisonF]

As a Cleric, there is little to compete with it. Sometimes a strategic Hold Person or Spiritual Guardians, but Bless almost every time.

As a Bard, you should have more options, such as Polymorph or Hypnotic Pattern (particularly when cast with an Instrument of the Bards for disadvantage). With that said, for most normal fights Bless will still often be better if you have a party of melee (particularly with GWF). Hopefully there can be a variety of encounters, such as ones where the melee can't get into range immediately.

One option is to try to spread out Bless across multiple players. Items like Ring of Spell Storing, or taking a feat of magical initiate can help spread the load across others.

[zinycor]

Bless is most certainly an amazing spell, but given that you are already 9 level you could use spells like Polymorph (To an ally it doesn't even require a saving throw, you can turn a dying ally into a full health tyrannosaurus), and greater invisibility (Even if your fighters and paladin aren't sneaky, they would have advantage on all atacking rolls and enemies would be at disadvantage triying to hit them).

Having said that, I don't think Having bless as part of the strategy makes it boring, since it helps you use other spells that don't require concentration :D.

[Kane0]

Obligatory homebrew option: new feat!
Benefit: You can concentrate on a second spell concurrently, but the second concentration spell cannot be of a spell level higher than half your proficiency bonus.
Maybe some other minor benefit to go with it, or a +1 Int/Wis.

Note: Might want to specify if you roll separately for concentration checks or not, no big deal either way.

Also if you cast bless so reliably bring a little prayer book or some other prop to the table, read a line each time you cast instead of saying 'I cast bless'.
Bonus points if you write up your own prayers and blessings.

[Sigreid]

No justification is really needed to do what you think will be fun. But if you want to justify, a proper lore bard is always testing out new things, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But maybe I'm selfish. My wizard does as he pleases and I don't think it even occurs to the party to try to badger him into doing differently.

[bardo]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I think I'll take Kane0's suggestion and come up with specific blessing for every occasion, in rhymes. Since Bless is that good, I'll just cast it.

Regarding Polymorph in combat, I'm not seeing a daily use for it. The other players would rather fight as themselves than fight as a T-Rex. Casting Polymorph on an angry giant (if it lands) leaves me with an angry bunny on my hands that will turn back into an angry giant when time runs out, or when the angry bunny takes 1hp of damage, or when I lose concentration. It doesn't solve my problem, just makes it more fluffy. There had better be a lava pit nearby. Polymorph is, of course, a fantastic panic-button to give 130+ temporary T-Rex hit points to a friend. Hopefully that use doesn't come up too often.

Cheers, Bardo.

[Ruslan]

Bless is such a powerful buff that I find it hard to justify (to myself, as well as to the party) using concentration for anything else. Convince your DM to use a house rule that I found very useful:

When you cast a spell with a duration of Concentration on a willing target, you may have the target concentrate on the spell instead of the caster.

Basically, outsource the concentration to the one(s) being buffed. Makes for a more interesting play, while still being balanced.

[Envyus]

Getting two concentration spells at once is a horrible idea. For those suggesting it.

Anyway Bless is a good spell and a helpful one. But in some cases in may be more useful for you to do something else.

[Demonic Spoon]

Most concentration spells are very potent. Bless is notable in that it scales very well (being powerful at level 10 even though only using a level 1 slot) and is applicable in virtually every fight, but I wouldn't say it's the best for every situation. Any kind of single-target disable like Hold Person can be very strong against a small number of enemies - AOE control spells like hypnotic pattern can reduce the damage incoming to your fighters by so that they can deal with the enemies in a more piecemeal manner. Compulsion could be used to simultaneously keep enemies from swarming your meleers while also giving them free opportunity attacks.

What Magical Secrets did you take? One problem that you might be having is that the Bard spell list is okay but not great in terms of combat concentration spells. There are some great things you could pick up - get Spirit Guardians and stand next to your meleers - it will both reduce the ability of enemies to get up to your meleers (improving their effective mobility) while adding on a truckload of damage; meanwhile, the wall of tanks in front of you prevents your concentration from being at risk.


Regarding Polymorph in combat, I'm not seeing a daily use for it. The other players would rather fight as themselves than fight as a T-Rex. Casting Polymorph on an angry giant (if it lands) leaves me with an angry bunny on my hands that will turn back into an angry giant when time runs out, or when the angry bunny takes 1hp of damage, or when I lose concentration. It doesn't solve my problem, just makes it more fluffy. There had better be a lava pit nearby. Polymorph is, of course, a fantastic panic-button to give 130+ temporary T-Rex hit points to a friend. Hopefully that use doesn't come up too often.


And if you're fighting two giants, you turn one into a fluffy bunny while you beat the other one into submission. Then, you all encircle the fluffy bunny, turn it back, and beat it into a pulp as soon as it comes back.

And as far as panic buttons go...if "save an ally on the brink of falling unconscious" isn't something that ever comes up, then it frankly doesn't matter what you cast. If your party is going to handily win each encounter with no risk, then you might as well blow your spell slots on Unseen Servant.

[Kane0]

Getting two concentration spells at once is a horrible idea. For those suggesting it.



Chained Device
By 14th level, you have learned to imprint vestiges of your consciousness on electronic devices with significant computing power. When you cast a concentration spell, you can use a device whose computing power is equal to or greater than a tablet computer to maintain concentration of the spell on your behalf. The device must be held or worn by you to maintain this effect. If the device is destroyed, taken from you, dropped, or turned off, the concentration ends. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

I'm not sure if everyone is in agreement with you there.


In any case, good to hear I helped. The thematic route ought to bring some fun times to the table, often a better remedy than picking another mechanic to mix up your routine with (though both is even better if you can).
For a classic bard feel, try taking lines from stuff like the Iliad, for more of a religious context a smattering of sacred texts can't go wrong (the more obscure the better!)

[Demonic Spoon]

I'm not sure if everyone is in agreement with you there.


Just because Wizards of the Coast published it in playtest material doesn't mean it's suddenly a good idea. WotC publishes lots of terrible stuff in playtest material (and lots of good stuff, too). That's why it's playtest material and not fully released content.

[Kryx]

Fully agreed that allowing multiple concentration spells breaks the core limitation of powerful spells. To do so would make casters significantly stronger. I would highly recommend against doing so.

I also agree on polymorphing a giant. Maybe choose something with 10 hp so it's slightly harder to break. Even a round or two less of dealing with a giant (or boss) is a very effective use of a spell.

[zinycor]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I think I'll take Kane0's suggestion and come up with specific blessing for every occasion, in rhymes. Since Bless is that good, I'll just cast it.

Regarding Polymorph in combat, I'm not seeing a daily use for it. The other players would rather fight as themselves than fight as a T-Rex. Casting Polymorph on an angry giant (if it lands) leaves me with an angry bunny on my hands that will turn back into an angry giant when time runs out, or when the angry bunny takes 1hp of damage, or when I lose concentration. It doesn't solve my problem, just makes it more fluffy. There had better be a lava pit nearby. Polymorph is, of course, a fantastic panic-button to give 130+ temporary T-Rex hit points to a friend. Hopefully that use doesn't come up too often.

Cheers, Bardo.

I don't know about your party, but the players on mine, at least, one falls unconscious every session that is heavy in combat. Maybe your GM needs to up the difficulty.

[Orbis Orboros]

I'm not sure if everyone is in agreement with you there.


If someone tries to sell you something that ignores the concentration rule, they haven't played the game enough to be familiar with what the rule does, as its a very important balancing tool
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2793-Mike-Mearls-on-stuff-(Tome-Show-interview-from-GenCon)#.Vb5E0IpHaJI#ixzz3hqeeCrCm

This, I'll grant you, is ironic. I wonder if they mean that you still only get one concentration spell going, but that it's the device that can't sleep, cast spells with long casting times, or take damage?

Regardless, a mere feat that allows you to have more concentration is horribly unbalanced. And making it a half-feat is just salting the wound.

[The_Ditto]

then you might as well blow your spell slots on Unseen Servant.

Hmm, I didn't see that coming ... O.o

[DireSickFish]

Faerie Fire - is a great debuff, giving all those mele attackers you have advantage will increase there crits and make them hit more, it also prevents foes from escaping.

Heat Metal - Is amazing against single targets. Cast it on the biggest monsters armor or weapon (as long as it has metal on it) and they'll have disadvantage the whole fight -and- be taking a ton of damage.

Silence - Great for covert ops. You drop the silence the sound of metal clanging is not but a whisper. That way your fighters don't -have- to be sneaky, you're being sneaky for them.

Calm Emotions - I was surprised when this was almost my most used spell on my cleric when I played a light cleric. It allows you to stall combat long enough to get information or to interrogate a hostile prisoner. In a fight suppressing fear and charms is amazing if more than 1 person if affected. Used it to suppress a vampires domination on a few party members so we could take him out.

Fear - Useful against mooks that you either don't want to bother to fight, or to split a large group into more manageable chunks. If you get them cornered you can pick them off 1 by 1 while maintaining fear on the rest.

Hypnotic Pattern - similar to fear

Greater Invisibility - Instead of makign the whole party more effective make one dude super hard to hit and has advantage.

Animate Objects - animate 10 tiny objects that all get +8 to hit and do 1d4+4 damage. And you can attack with them as a bonus round after the first round so that you can still cast other spells. This is a brutal amount of damage if you can keep it up and they don't start attacking your pebbles or gold pices. This was mine and another players big damage spell that we used to regularly mess up Dragons. Can't reccomend this enough.

Dominate Person - why have an enemy when you could have an ally?

And this is without getting into arcane secrets, just stuff from the Bard list. Bless is a good generic spell that will always be useful, and as you've said is not a bad option in most cases. Think about giving some of these spells a try if you want to liven things up, you might find they work just as good or better.

[EvilAnagram]

I would also strongly caution against breaking the concentration limitations.

However, you seem to be suffering from a rut. According to your account, your party has stale combat encounters. Fortunately, you're a motherflippin' bard, yo. Some things you can do:


Trick guards into walking off a cliff with Phantasmal Force
Trick guards into fighting an apparition while you casually stealth by with Phantasmal Force.
Eliminate enemy magics with Silence.
Use Phantasmal Killer because 4d10 damage per turn is worth sacrificing one hit from an ally.
Use Tasha's Hideous Laughter to eliminate a threat while still granting advantage to your melee allies. Plus, you can use a knock knock joke as the vocal component.
Use Tasha's laughter to turn a mob against someone. (You're in an inn, mention a recent tragedy, cast on enemy, watch the patrons immediately turn on the laughing jerk.)
Use Hypnotic Pattern or Heat Metal to open combat and provide some immediate help before you move on to other spells.
Use enchantments to completely alter a battle.
Use enchantments to preempt battles.
Use enchantments to mess with people.
Use Awaken with wild abandon. Be the progenitor of a new race of intelligent gerbils or talking trees.
Sleep, Shatter, Pyrotechnics, and Thunderwave are all instantaneous with no concentration.


Aslo, Fireball is available with Magical Secrets.

[Shining Wrath]

Part of your problem is that you are in a party that really benefits from Bless. Three front-line melee fighters are going to love the benefits you enumerate.

So ... what's your alignment? Because if you're not LG or LN, your character doesn't necessarily have to do what's best for the whole party. Do what's fun at least once in a while. Assess the encounter; if the melee types are equal to the task before them, use other tools in your box to help in other ways.

[Ardantis]

It sounds like you're happy with your character outside of combat because of the variety and power of your skills and spells.

In combat, Bless is too good not to use (and it takes concentration.)

The Bard in my party had a similar problem- namely, that there are so many good concentration spells on the Bard list that it's hard to craft a spells known list which isn't stepping all over itself with concentration spells.

The fact of the matter is you need more non-concentration, instantaneous-duration spells to cast on the SECOND round of combat.

That's what Magical Secrets are for. As a Lore Bard of your level, you should have one other Secret of 3rd level or lower, and next level you'll get two Secrets of 5th level or lower. What did you take as your other Magical Secrets?

Because right now what you wouldn't give for a good ol' fashioned fireball.

What I'm saying is, scour the other lists for your next level Secret very carefully. Even if you don't want to be blasty, there are plenty of solid spells on other lists which are instantaneous-duration, non-concentration. Use that class feature to fill your need!

[MaxWilson]

The blues start on the first round of combat. I cast Bless. With three melee characters in the party there are so many attack rolls that bless turns a miss into a hit every round. If we all have to save against some effect, it's quite likely that bless will turn a failed save into a pass for someone. Bless is such a powerful buff that I find it hard to justify (to myself, as well as to the party) using concentration for anything else. I cast bless, heal as needed, maneuver into position to react with counterspell and cutting words, occasionally throw a dissonant whisper. It's efficient. It works. It gets monotonous and boring.

I would imagine clerics run into the same situation. Which spells can compete for concentration with bless? When bless wins for concentration, which non-concentration spells are useful in combat?

I find that my bardlock doesn't cast Bless much because the opportunity cost is too high. In particular, Conjure Animals (Cobras/Giant Poisonous Snakes) is fantastic because the Shadow Monk can use her concentration to cast Darkness, giving them all advantage to attack and disadvantage to be hit ('cause cobras have blindsight). Other terrific spells that are also better than Bless include Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph. Even Faerie Fire tends to be more useful than Bless because it affects everybody (including skeleton archers or smoke mephits) not just three of the four PCs, not to mention negating darkness. Bless tends to get used only at long range (where other spells are ineffective) or against high-threat single targets like beholders where the save bonus comes into play.

If you're spending your concentration on Bless, Blindness/Deafness can still be cast, or Dissonant Whispers to trigger a whole bunch of opportunity attacks. My bardlock mostly casts (Repelling) Eldritch Blast though in that situation, to knock enemies off cliffs or off the deck of a spelljamming ship or just to thin out the crowd attacking the paladin tank. For you I'd recommend Plant Growth or Speak with Plants for terrain control, and Disguise Self ("I'm a big scary guy in plate mail with a greatsword") for defensive masking. And of course there's good old Charm Person and Vicious Mockery, neither of which is superb but also neither of which requires concentration.

[MaxWilson]

Bless is most certainly an amazing spell, but given that you are already 9 level you could use spells like Polymorph (To an ally it doesn't even require a saving throw, you can turn a dying ally into a full health tyrannosaurus), and greater invisibility (Even if your fighters and paladin aren't sneaky, they would have advantage on all atacking rolls and enemies would be at disadvantage triying to hit them).

Bear in mind that according to the errata, "Polymorph (p. 266). This spell can’t
affect a target that has 0 hit points." So "dying ally" has to be "one who is low on HP" and not "one who is making death saves."

[MaxWilson]

Regarding Polymorph in combat, I'm not seeing a daily use for it. The other players would rather fight as themselves than fight as a T-Rex. Casting Polymorph on an angry giant (if it lands) leaves me with an angry bunny on my hands that will turn back into an angry giant when time runs out, or when the angry bunny takes 1hp of damage, or when I lose concentration. It doesn't solve my problem, just makes it more fluffy. There had better be a lava pit nearby. Polymorph is, of course, a fantastic panic-button to give 130+ temporary T-Rex hit points to a friend. Hopefully that use doesn't come up too often.

Put the rabbit in a cage and drown it in a lake. Per the errata, "Suffocating (p. 183). If you run out of breath or are choking, you can’t regain hit points or be stabilized until you can breathe again", so arguably the 0 HP drowned bunny turns immediately into a 0 HP drowned giant at the bottom of a lake. Check with your DM first but I think that is the most reasonable interpretation.

(Actually, if it were my players, I wouldn't tell them outright, I'd say "try it and find out." And then I'd expect them to attempt to Polymorph + drown a PC in bunny form, in a bathtub.)

[bardo]

The Bard in my party had a similar problem- namely, that there are so many good concentration spells on the Bard list that it's hard to craft a spells known list which isn't stepping all over itself with concentration spells.

The fact of the matter is you need more non-concentration, instantaneous-duration spells to cast on the SECOND round of combat.

Hammer, Meet Anvil. My spells known list does exactly that: Step all over itself with combat-oriented concentration spells. When 10th level comes up I get two new magical secrets, and one spell swap. An opportunity to fix some of the concentration overlap. I was planning to take Conjure Woodland Beings, but that will just aggravate my condition. It's better to have a weaker non-concentration spell that I will actually cast than a powerful concentration spell that I'll rarely use. Unseen Servant. lol. I think Speak with Plants would be more in character, maybe the mold on the walls of the dungeon has something interesting to say.

My previous magical secrets picks are Alter Self and Counterspell. No regrets there. Alter Self shenanigans never get boring. Counterspell has been my best in-combat healing spell so far - "a hit point prevented is a hit point healed" - not to mention that rolling the Caster Ability Check with +7 (+5 CHA, +2 Jack of All Trades) feels like cheating.

Again, thank you all for your help.
Bardo.

[bardo]

Put the rabbit in a cage and drown it in a lake.

Topology permitting, I'd toss the angry bunny from a high cliff and release concentration, roll perception to hear that satisfying 'thud'. As fun as that sounds, offensive Polymorph is usually inferior to Hypnotic Pattern. Both are WIS saves. Both are hard-disables until the target takes damage or concentration breaks. Hypnotic Pattern only lasts 1 minute compared to Polymorph's 1 hour, but Hypnotic Pattern is an AoE (a large one at that), has twice the range, and is 1 level lower.

I'm not dropping Polymorph from my spells known list. We've only played a couple of sessions of 5th edition so far and I'm sure that future encounters will be deadlier and that T-Rexing a friend will come up (MaxWilson, thanks for the clarification that it doesn't work on 0-hp targets). Besides, you can't get an Owl Bear into a Halfling's home without Polymorph. You just can't.

Bardo.

[Ardantis]

I find that my bardlock doesn't cast Bless much because the opportunity cost is too high. In particular, Conjure Animals (Cobras/Giant Poisonous Snakes) is fantastic because the Shadow Monk can use her concentration to cast Darkness, giving them all advantage to attack and disadvantage to be hit ('cause cobras have blindsight). Other terrific spells that are also better than Bless include Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph. Even Faerie Fire tends to be more useful than Bless because it affects everybody (including skeleton archers or smoke mephits) not just three of the four PCs, not to mention negating darkness. Bless tends to get used only at long range (where other spells are ineffective) or against high-threat single targets like beholders where the save bonus comes into play.

If you're spending your concentration on Bless, Blindness/Deafness can still be cast, or Dissonant Whispers to trigger a whole bunch of opportunity attacks. My bardlock mostly casts (Repelling) Eldritch Blast though in that situation, to knock enemies off cliffs or off the deck of a spelljamming ship or just to thin out the crowd attacking the paladin tank. For you I'd recommend Plant Growth or Speak with Plants for terrain control, and Disguise Self ("I'm a big scary guy in plate mail with a greatsword") for defensive masking. And of course there's good old Charm Person and Vicious Mockery, neither of which is superb but also neither of which requires concentration.

Your Cobras should not be able to see in a Darkness spell, even with Blindsight. It's magical darkness, and requires magical senses to see through it (or blindsense or tremorsense or something that doesn't use vision.)

The concentrations blues are a real bugger, though. The best spells which aren't concentration are usually blasty (Flame Strike, anyone?)

Seriously, though, for blasty spells with great rider effects at spell level 5 I'd recommend:

Cone of Cold
Destructive Wave (only selected targets, knockdown effect, thunder and radiant or necrotic damage. It's "not" on the paladin list, but I think it was supposed to have been. It's on the Storm Cleric list).

[Daishain]

It's "not" on the paladin list, but I think it was supposed to have been.

This has been confirmed. I was mistakenly written on the Pally spell list as 'Destructive Smite'

[hymer]

Your Cobras should not be able to see in a Darkness spell, even with Blindsight. It's magical darkness, and requires magical senses to see through it (or blindsense or tremorsense or something that doesn't use vision.)

How sure are you of that interpretation? Blindsight in MM (p. 8): "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." Sounds like it's exactly what you want to deal with darkness, magical or otherwise. The Darkness spell specifically mentions that it defeats darkvision, but there's no mention of blindsight.

[Kryx]

How sure are you of that interpretation? Blindsight in MM (p. 8): "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius." Sounds like it's exactly what you want to deal with darkness, magical or otherwise. The Darkness spell specifically mentions that it defeats darkvision, but there's no mention of blindsight.
There is some RAW debate, but I think this case is one of the main reasons blindsight exists imo.

[hymer]

There is some RAW debate, but I think this case is one of the main reasons blindsight exists imo.

Ok, a discussion for a different thread, I guess. Thanks!