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Droodle
2007-05-04, 09:51 PM
OK. I see a lot of build recommendations that look something like this:
Bard 8/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8

Now, I readily admit that this is a perfectly legal build, but there is one major problem that I don't think a lot of people factor in. The Sublime Chord has its own, separate spell progression from a standard bard. A special feature which is (supposed to be) unique to the sublime chord is that when the Sublime Chord takes a new level, the effective caster level of his bard spells also improves. The virtuoso has no such feature. Wouldn't a build like this end up casting his lower level bard spells at level 12 since the virtuoso only advances in one casting class at a time? Prestige classes can't, after all, take Ultimate Magus caster levels for their arcane casting. They have to choose one or the other. Why would the Sublime Chord work differently?

Darrin
2007-05-05, 11:45 AM
A special feature which is (supposed to be) unique to the sublime chord is that when the Sublime Chord takes a new level, the effective caster level of his bard spells also improves. The virtuoso has no such feature. Wouldn't a build like this end up casting his lower level bard spells at level 12 since the virtuoso only advances in one casting class at a time? Prestige classes can't, after all, take Ultimate Magus caster levels for their arcane casting. They have to choose one or the other. Why would the Sublime Chord work differently?

The Sublime Chord works differently because rather than add +1 caster level like most PrCs, it has it's own spell slot progression, from 4th level spells to 9th. The class feature allows you to add your Sublime Chord levels to your Bard caster levels so that mechanically you don't have a separate caster level for Bard and/or Sublime Chord spells.

If you take a PrC that adds +1 caster level before you take Sublime Chord, your Bard caster level would still be your Bard levels plus any PrC levels that include "+1 caster level". Once you take Sublime Chord, any PrC that grants caster levels can be applied to either your Bard class or the Sublime Chord PrC. This allows anyone who can get into Sublime Chord to get access to 9th level Sor/Wiz spells.

Virtuoso isn't actually all that optimal of a pick, I think it only has half caster level progression. Abjurant Champion or something with full caster levels is generally preferred (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils is fairly popular, while Seeker of the Song might be better for Bard builds).

Actually, Virtuoso is more commonly used to add Bardic Music ability to a non-bard build, allowing them to get into Sublime Chord and rebuild their higher-level spellcasting abilities that were gimped for some sort of multiclass tomfoolery.

Darrin
2007-05-05, 11:50 AM
A special feature which is (supposed to be) unique to the sublime chord is that when the Sublime Chord takes a new level, the effective caster level of his bard spells also improves. The virtuoso has no such feature. Wouldn't a build like this end up casting his lower level bard spells at level 12 since the virtuoso only advances in one casting class at a time? Prestige classes can't, after all, take Ultimate Magus caster levels for their arcane casting. They have to choose one or the other. Why would the Sublime Chord work differently?

The Sublime Chord works differently because rather than add +1 caster level like most PrCs, it has it's own spell slot progression, from 4th level spells to 9th. The class feature allows you to add your Sublime Chord levels to your Bard caster levels so that mechanically you don't have a separate caster level for Bard and/or Sublime Chord spells.

If you take a PrC that adds +1 caster level before you take Sublime Chord, your Bard caster level would still be your Bard levels plus any PrC levels that include "+1 caster level". Once you take Sublime Chord, any PrC that grants caster levels can be applied to either your Bard class or the Sublime Chord PrC. This allows anyone who can get into Sublime Chord to get access to 9th level Sor/Wiz spells.

Virtuoso isn't actually all that optimal of a pick, I think it only has half caster level progression. Abjurant Champion or something with full caster levels is generally preferred (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils is fairly popular, while Seeker of the Song might be better for Bard builds).

Actually, Virtuoso is more commonly used to add Bardic Music ability to a non-bard build, allowing them to get into Sublime Chord and rebuild their higher-level spellcasting abilities that were gimped for some sort of multiclass tomfoolery.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-05, 12:18 PM
Virtuoso is full caster prog. Very nice too, as you can multiclass out of bard with essentially no penalty. Furthermore, it has its own class abilities :D

Ramza00
2007-05-05, 01:02 PM
Spells per Day/Spells Known: Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Note it says prestige class level. Some prestige classes force you to be advancing the same spell progression throughout the entire build. Others such as Virtuoso (and off the top of my mind warweaver and combat medic) allow you to choose at each level where the +1 spellcasting goes to. Thus prior to gaining sublime chord spells you advance the bard spellcasting, after you gain access to the sublime chord you progress the sublime chord spell list.

Not all +1 spellcasting text works the same way. It depends on the prestige class, read the text!

Ramza00
2007-05-05, 01:05 PM
Also note that Bard 8 is a bad endpoint, you gain nothing from it if you go straight into virtuoso since both classes progress your bardic music inspire courage. Go into virtuoso a level earlier to get faster access to the unique virtuoso songs or wait 1 lvl for Bard 9 to get Inspire greatness (you delay virtuoso 10 though till epic levels).

Lolth
2007-05-05, 02:07 PM
Virtuoso is where? Sorry my ignorance.

Ramza00
2007-05-05, 02:10 PM
Bard Prc in Complete Adventurer (can be entered though without bard just needs 10 ranks in perform). 9/10 casting gets a bardic music which stacks with inspire courage, the number of bardic music attempts, and gaining new unique songs to the Virtuoso.

d6 hit points, good will, 6+skill points

Droodle
2007-05-05, 04:42 PM
If you take a PrC that adds +1 caster level before you take Sublime Chord, your Bard caster level would still be your Bard levels plus any PrC levels that include "+1 caster level". Once you take Sublime Chord, any PrC that grants caster levels can be applied to either your Bard class or the Sublime Chord PrC. This allows anyone who can get into Sublime Chord to get access to 9th level Sor/Wiz spells.
My point, here, is that the Sublime Chord has his own spell progression which is separate from the standard bardic progression, and the fact that his effective casting level as a bard also improves as the Sublime Chord gains levels is actually a special feature unique to the Sublime Chord PrC. Improving your Sublime Chord spell progression while part of a PrC that allows you to choose which arcane spell type to improve will not improve the effective caster level of your spells from the bardic table when choosing to advance your Sublime Chord casting since this feature is unique to the Sublime Chord. To continue to improve the effective caster levels of your early bard levels, you will need to stay a Sublime Chord. The Virtuoso can continue to advance in Casting as a Sublime Chord, but the effective caster level of the bardic spells that the PC had prior to becoming a Sublime Chord will not improve. A level 20 character using the build I posted would cast his bard spells at level 11 for the purposes of save DC's and would cast spells from the Sublime Chord tree at an effective level of 19.

(My initial calculation failed to take into account the fact that the Virtuoso doesn't gain a caster level at his first level.)

Ramza00
2007-05-05, 05:26 PM
Let me see if I understand your arguement correctly.

If you use virutso to progress your sublime chord casting it can be progressed and you can get up to 9th lvl spells. Note your first 7-10 lvls of bard's caster level is not improved.

Well this is wrong because of this paragraph of sublime chord. (sublime chord is a special case)


Spells per Day: A sublime chord has the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, all of 4th level or higher. To cast a sublime chord spell, a character must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so if she has a Charisma of 13 or lower, she cannot cast any sublime chord spells. Bonus spells are based on Charisma, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the sublime chord’s Cha modifier. A sublime chord can choose spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list or the bard spell list; if a spell appears on both lists at different levels, she uses the bard version of the spell. A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level. A sublime chord prepares and casts spells just as a sorcererdoes, including the ability to replace a known sublime chord spell with a new spell at every even-numbered class level beginning at 4th.

Thus a Bard 8/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 will have a caster level of 19 for both his bard and his sublime chord spells. He will have all 10 lvls of spells known and spell slots for his Sublime Chord. Furthemore he will have 9 lvls of Bard Spell known and spell slots.

Furthermore caster level NEVER AFFECTS SAVE DCS, it does affect spell resistance and variable effects of the spell that are determined by caster level.

Kurobara
2007-05-05, 06:37 PM
Abjurant Champion or something with full caster levels is generally preferred (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils is fairly popular, while Seeker of the Song might be better for Bard builds).

Except for, y'know, the fact that Seeker of the Song doesn't have any caster progression.

Droodle
2007-05-06, 03:02 AM
Well this is wrong because of this paragraph of sublime chord. (sublime chord is a special case)
A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level. Except that a Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 only has a sublime chord level of 2. The description rather clearly states that the Sublime Chord Level, not the Sublime Chord effective caster level, is added to another arcane spell casting class. When choosing to advance as a Sublime Chord through a PrC like the virtuoso, your Sublime Chord level doesn't go up. Remember, when you improve the level of another casting class through a PrC, you gain no other benefits of that class. Your Sublime Chord level is still 2, even though you cast spells as a level 10 Sublime Chord.

Ramza00
2007-05-06, 10:50 AM
Except that a Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 only has a sublime chord level of 2. The description rather clearly states that the Sublime Chord Level, not the Sublime Chord effective caster level, is added to another arcane spell casting class. When choosing to advance as a Sublime Chord through a PrC like the virtuoso, your Sublime Chord level doesn't go up. Remember, when you improve the level of another casting class through a PrC, you gain no other benefits of that class. Your Sublime Chord level is still 2, even though you cast spells as a level 10 Sublime Chord.

Wrong again.

The virtuoso description says you gain "virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level."

The sublime chord text that says your other arcane spellcasting class caster level is equal to your sublime chord level +1 other arcane caster level is located under the section "Spells per Day" of the Sublime Chord. Thus it does increase.

Now if that line of text which says your plain bard caster level is equal to your sublime chord caster level had its own bullet point, or was under the bardic lore, bardic music, song of arcane power, etc it won't be advanced. It won't be advanced for then it would be its own class feature of the sublime chord instead of being tied to the sublime chord's spellcasting itself.

Droodle
2007-05-06, 12:46 PM
Wrong again.

The virtuoso description says you gain "virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level."

The sublime chord text that says your other arcane spellcasting class caster level is equal to your sublime chord level +1 other arcane caster level is located under the section "Spells per Day" of the Sublime Chord. Thus it does increase.Read the first part I put in bold. You gain new arcane spells as if you gained a level in the other class. You don't, however, actually gain a level in the other class for any other purposes, like improving your familiar abilities, etc.

Now read the next part. It says that your other arcane spellcasting class caster level is equal to your Sublime Chord Level. It doesn't say that your other arcane spellcasting class level is equal to your Sublime Chord Caster Level. Because it uses the term "Sublime Chord Level" instead of "Sublime Chord Caster Level", by the RAW you are only improving the caster level of the other arcane class when increasing your Sublime Chord level. The only time your Sublime Chord level increases is when you take levels as a Sublime Chord.

Darrin
2007-05-06, 10:47 PM
Except for, y'know, the fact that Seeker of the Song doesn't have any caster progression.

Ack, sorry... didn't have the books in front of me.

What I was trying to say, if you're gishing, avoid Virtuoso, the BAB is worse than if you'd stuck with bard. (Are there any other PrCs like Abjurant Champion with full BAB and full caster levels?). Can't recall any of the Virtuoso stuff off the top of my head, other than the ability that makes weapons keen... that seemed like the best of the bunch.

So long as you take the first level before Sublime Chord, you shouldn't lose any caster levels. But yeah, no reason to stick with Bard up until 8 if you can help it.