[3.5] Benefiting From a Feat You've Lost

[Thurbane]

I asked this in the Q&A by RAW thread, but I'd like to go into it in a little more details.

I'm looking for feats that you would still gain some kind of benefit from, after you'd lost the feat.

Specifically, say you're a Human and you become Dragonborn (yes, Human isn't the best base for Dragonborn) - you lose your human bonus feat.

I'm trying to think of feats that you could still have some kind of benefit from, after they've gone. Here's some of the responses in the Q&A thread:


A 281 (partial?)

The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be Able Learner, which reduces the cost of cross-class skill ranks. Even if you lost the feat at a later time, it wouldn't change how many skill ranks you have. I suppose any feat that lowered the cost for certain skills, or one that let certain skills always count as class skills, would also count (if there are any).

A 281 partial

You lose a feat when you go from human to dragonborn, but it doesn't have to be the same feat you originally took as your human bonus feat. So if you were, say, a Ranger, you could keep your human bonus feat and lose Track or Endurance instead. Or if you took Vow of Poverty, you could lose one of the bonus exalted feats and keep the vow itself.

A 281 partial

A Human martial adept could take Martial Study for a discipline outside their class list at level 1, and then later Martial Stance for a stance from that discipline. During the Rite of Rebirth they could choose to lose Martial Study. Since a stance is a special type of maneuver, Martial Stance then provides its own prerequisite.

A 281 Additional:

There are several feats that can be used as alternatives for prerequisites. For instance, Dodge, Desert Wind Dodge, Midnight Dodge, and a feat from Races of the Wild with a name I'm forgetting. If you took Dodge, then feats depending upon Dodge, and then got one of the alternatives, you could then trade away Dodge and keep all your other feats. There are similar cases (Stone Power and Power Attack; Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse), and there may be cases where a class feature can be used instead of a feat for a pre-req, but I'm not recalling any.

All ideas welcome.

Cheers - T

[AmberVael]

One major thing to consider is that you can lose any feat when you take dragonborn, not just the bonus human feat. So if you're a level 1 ranger, you can choose to lose your bonus track feat instead of any other feat.

[torrasque666]

Better example might be elf. Those weapon proficiency feats can get you into some classes. Like Suel Arcanamach, and as long as you're not playing with a DM who reads the rules closely, you can continue to use the Arcanamach's features. If your DM actually reads that one section though, you're SOL.

[Thurbane]

Not really looking to swindle anyone, more just looking for feats that provide a benefit after they've gone...

Assume for my case that it would be enforced that it MUST be the Human bonus feat that is lost.

[Jowgen]

I believe that if you take the Touchstone feat (or the planar version) and you attuned to the Wereglade, you gain the Shapechanger subtype irrevocably, even if you loose the feat and thus the connection.

No idea what the value in that is though :smallannoyed:

[A_S]

I've heard it argued that the (Planar) Touchstone feat's benefit isn't the abilities you get from activating a particular touchstone, but the ability to activate a touchstone in the first place. Thus, if the feat went away after you'd activated a touchstone, you'd retain that touchstone's benefit, you just wouldn't be able to activate a new one anymore. Not sure how much credence to give that interpretation.

I was also going to suggest feats that give you stuff, like the extra starting wealth from Apprentice (criminal), but the first thing I found with a search on the subject was you yourself suggesting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142287-Wealth-Feats), five years ago at that, that the taxman comes and takes your money if you retrain the feat.

[Thurbane]

I was also going to suggest feats that give you stuff, like the extra starting wealth from Apprentice (criminal), but the first thing I found with a search on the subject was you yourself suggesting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142287-Wealth-Feats), five years ago at that, that the taxman comes and takes your money if you retrain the feat.

I can honestly say I don't even remember that thread! :smallbiggrin:

How about Ancestral Relic - does it disappear or lose power if you lose the feat?

[Chronos]

I don't know about Ancestral Relic, but conventional item creation feats should be just fine. Get the feat, make some equipment, lose the feat, keep the equipment.

Shape Soulmeld will also work, as long as you never deliberately unshape the meld (why would you?), or have it forcibly unshaped (which is really rare).

[marphod]

Ancestral Relic requires Character level 3. (so does item familiar).

You could argue that the Racial Bonuses should let you keep abilities granted by alertness, if you select Dragon Mind. Not RAW at all.

[nedz]

Well there are dysfunctional ones you'd want to lose anyway; e.g. Obscure Personal Truename.

There are others you may have grown out of; e.g. Precocious Apprentice.

And ones you may have just made obsolete; e.g. Dragontouched.

Other than those — there are the ones which give you things you have already spent; e.g. Open Minded

[Troacctid]

Assume for my case that it would be enforced that it MUST be the Human bonus feat that is lost.

Even though the rules explicitly contradict this, using the exact example of human bonus feats, making the intent super-clear?

[WhamBamSam]

I believe that if you take the Touchstone feat (or the planar version) and you attuned to the Wereglade, you gain the Shapechanger subtype irrevocably, even if you loose the feat and thus the connection.

No idea what the value in that is though :smallannoyed:I think you need to use the Higher-Order ability at least once and run around as a werewolf for a few hours (which also means you need to actually visit the Wereglade to power the touchstone), but you do indeed permanently gain the Shapechanger subtype. This does in fact have a few uses. First, it's a "no" button against Baleful Polymorph, which might come in handy. Second, if you wanted to go Warshaper but were using some form of Shapeshifting that didn't qualify on its own (such as Alter Self or some manner of Alternate Form) the subtype would qualify you.


I've heard it argued that the (Planar) Touchstone feat's benefit isn't the abilities you get from activating a particular touchstone, but the ability to activate a touchstone in the first place. Thus, if the feat went away after you'd activated a touchstone, you'd retain that touchstone's benefit, you just wouldn't be able to activate a new one anymore. Not sure how much credence to give that interpretation.

I was also going to suggest feats that give you stuff, like the extra starting wealth from Apprentice (criminal), but the first thing I found with a search on the subject was you yourself suggesting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?142287-Wealth-Feats), five years ago at that, that the taxman comes and takes your money if you retrain the feat.Any Apprentice-like feat giving you skills as class skills would be a good bet even without wealth bonuses, as you'd keep the skill points invested (do you lose the human bonus skill points when you go Dragonborn?), even if it was made not a class skill by the removal of the feat.

You might also keep the outsider type from Otherworldly (using the Celestial Attended Birth option in Champions of Valor) depending on the exact wording of the Rite of Rebirth text about keeping your previous type.

[Thurbane]

Other than those — there are the ones which give you things you have already spent; e.g. Open Minded

Open MInded is a good one - but would the 5 skill points be revoked once the feat is lost?

[Troacctid]

Open MInded is a good one - but would the 5 skill points be revoked once the feat is lost?

The Ritual of Rebirth also makes you lose bonus skill points, so one would presume so, yes.

[nedz]

Open MInded is a good one - but would the 5 skill points be revoked once the feat is lost?

Skill points: Yes, Skill ranks: No.
So long as you have spent the points on ranks already then you are good — and I would struggle to contrive a means of not having spent them since that happens during level up.
Do you lose skill ranks if your Int is drained ?

[Troacctid]

Do you lose skill ranks if your Int is drained ?

No, but you do lose skill ranks if you give up bonus racial skill points as a result of becoming a dragonborn, which seems like the more relevant comparison.

[Jowgen]

I looked through all the touchstones in Sand and PlH, and found another one that might let you keep some benefit after unplugging. Pilgrim's Rest's base ability reads:


You gain a permanent connection to the Ethereal Plane. Because of this, whenever you are on the Material Plane, you gain a +1 bonus to your Armor Class.

On topic of the wereglad, it does look like you at least have to have held the higher order ability for a while, but I think beyond that it works


Once you’ve made your first visit to the Were Glade, you permanently retain the shapechanger subtype, even if you’ve exhausted all your uses of the higher-order ability

[TiaC]

There are others you may have grown out of; e.g. Precocious Apprentice.

Wouldn't this leave you with an extra 2nd level spell in your spellbook?

[Troacctid]

Wouldn't this leave you with an extra 2nd level spell in your spellbook?

No, the spell isn't added to your spellbook, but it would leave you with an extra 2nd level spell slot.

[nedz]

No, but you do lose skill ranks if you give up bonus racial skill points as a result of becoming a dragonborn, which seems like the more relevant comparison.
But what does the ritual text actually say ?

No, the spell isn't added to your spellbook, but it would leave you with an extra 2nd level spell slot.
You would lose the spell slot, but since this is non-scaling the loss is increasingly marginal as you level up.

[Troacctid]

But what does the ritual text actually say ?

It's not Open Game Content, but you can find it in the sidebar on page 10 of Races of the Dragon. To paraphrase, if you got some number of skill points from your race, you lose that many skill ranks. You can pick which skills to take them from, but the text advises you to consult your DM if you're dealing with "tricky situations" such as multiclass characters with different sets of class skills.

[nedz]

It's not Open Game Content, but you can find it in the sidebar on page 10 of Races of the Dragon. To paraphrase, if you got some number of skill points from your race, you lose that many skill ranks. You can pick which skills to take them from, but the text advises you to consult your DM if you're dealing with "tricky situations" such as multiclass characters with different sets of class skills.

I don't have RotD to hand.

So it doesn't cover skill ranks from other sources.