Fighter 7/Bard 7/Shadowdancer 6 Build

[LordOfCain]

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 13
Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy Pick), Stealthy, Run, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Defense
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Fort. Save: +9
Ref. Save: +12
Will Save: +9
17 Bluff
18 Intimidate
18 Hide
5 Peform Dance
8 Move Silently
2 Escape Artist
11 Open Lock
9 Sleight of Hand
3 Jump
Any Comments???

[Troacctid]

So why are you doing 50/50 splits between two base classes? And what happened to your Dragon Disciple? Also, why are you taking an odd number of Fighter levels? And do you realize that prestige class levels never count towards multiclassing penalties?

[LordOfCain]

I am just trying different ideas for my build. Everything but a level of fighter as the first level is 100% fluid.

[LordOfCain]

Maybe 4 levels of Shadowdancer, 2 levels of Dragon Disciple, and 8 levels of Fighter, and 7 levels of bard.

[Troacctid]

Okay, so why the 50/50 splits and the odd number of Fighter levels?

[LordOfCain]

It doesn't have to be 50/50 but I don't want to have multi classing penalties.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make your character a Human and you'll never have a multiclassing penalty as long as you only use two base classes. Prestige classes never count for the multiclassing penalty, and as a human one of your two base classes will always be your favored class.

Why do you want to take Fighter at first level? Taking Bard at first level gets you sixteen additional skill points, and you can start with four ranks in the Bard class skills that you'll need. Starting with Fighter you'll be stuck spending four skill points for two ranks in a cross-class skill that you'll need for Bard, or you'll have four ranks in a bunch of Fighter class skills.

It looks like you're taking both TWF and Power Attack, which don't work very well together. You generally want a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, or you want TWF along with a source of bonus damage, such as Sneak Attack or in this case Dragonfire Inspiration. In either case you're better off using an animated shield instead of wasting feats on Two-Weapon Defense, or just take Improved Shield Bash and use a spiked shield. Either make the character a Silverbrow Human to take Dragonfire Inspiration and drop Power Attack, or drop TWF and use a two-handed weapon.

Switch to something like Bard 8/ Fighter 2/ whatever, taking those Fighter levels as early as you want as long as you don't put Fighter at 1st level. If you can use non-core material then Sublime Chord is ideal, otherwise you're stuck with the subpar core prestige classes or just more Bard levels.

[nedz]

Race ?
This will help with Favoured Classes.

Sources available ?

The following feats are weak
Dodge*, Mobility*, Weapon Focus (Heavy Pick), Weapon Specialization (Heavy Pick), Stealthy, Run
* I realise that these are a feat tax for Shadowdancer

The following feats are virtually worthless
Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Take Improved Buckler Defense instead ( Complete Warrior p100 )

Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting are both good feats - but interact poorly.

Combat Reflexes works best with Reach weapons - which are hard to use with Two-Weapon Fighting.

Ranger 2 gets you Martial weapons, Skill points, full BAB and TWF — if you want TWF ?

Why do you want TWF if you are focussed on Heavy Pick ?

[LordOfCain]

Altered Build:
Fighter 4/Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Duelist 4/Shadowdancer 5
Str: 24
Dex: 16
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 8
Cha: 15
BAB: 17/12/7/2
Fort:11
Ref:14
Will:11
TWF, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Two Weapon Defense, Run, Skill Focus Hide, Skill Focus Bluff
22 Bluff
10 Escape Artist
6 Perform Dnace
18 Tumble
17 Hide
4 Intimidate
7 Move Silently
8 Know Arcana
Wood Elf
Core Only

[LordOfCain]

Dual wielding heavy pick and dagger FYI.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Duelist is a terrible class, just get rid of it and forget it exists.

In fact, why are you including any of the things you have listed there? It doesn't have any synergy or even make any sense.

Prestige classes do not count for a multiclassing xp penalty. Proof:

In the previous version of the D&D game, having levels in a
prestige class never caused you to pay the experience
penalty for being a multiclass character without uneven
class levels. (The prestige class levels didn’t count when
checking to see if you had a penalty.) The section on
prestige classes in the new DMG no longer mentions that
you don’t suffer an experience penalty for having levels in a
prestige class. Is this a change or an error?

It’s an error. Having levels in a prestige class won’t give
you an experience penalty. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a)

My advice would be to switch the build to Fighter 4/ Bard 16 using a race that will get one of those as a favored class. You can get items that increase your ability scores, put a higher stat on Con. If you insist on fighting with two weapons then at least take Craft Magic Arms and Armor and put Flaming, Frost, Shock, Wounding, etc. on those weapons so it will go from abysmal to mediocre.

[LordOfCain]

I am not trying to create a super optimized combo or anything, I want to create a stealthy duelist who can use the shadows to his advantage. The Dragon Disciple is for the +4 Strength and the Duelist is for flavor mostly. I might drop 2 levels of it to get more Shadowdancer which is for stealth and for shadow. The background is a wood elf raised by drow so I want the shadow powers for flavor. But I would like it to not be abysmal though...

[Deadline]

Dual wielding heavy pick and dagger FYI.

Umm, why? Scratch that, it could be for the fun of it. I'll instead ask, why Power Attack? It doesn't work at all with the dagger (you only get the penalty to attack with the dagger, and no increase in damage).

What is the goal you have in mind for this character? What do you envision him being able to do?

[LordOfCain]

Strike out of the shadows and run away, using bard spells/music to buff himself and be a sort of rogue-ish character without taking a single level of rogue.

[Troacctid]

Okay, problem, Bard spells and music are very noisy, and generally counterproductive if you are trying to hide and be stealthy.

[LordOfCain]

I think that you can use perform dance for bardic music and bardic spells might be used before striking.

[Nifft]

Idea:

- Start with a single class. In this case, start with Bard or Ranger.

- Work out what that one class could do at level 20, and if it can do what you need it to do. Bard can certainly do stealthy, since it has silence and invisibility, plus all those skill points. Ranger can also do that stuff.

Then, when you know what a single class could do, try to see if you can do better with a mix of classes.

Right now, you're basically making something worse than a single-class Ranger.

[Deadline]

I think that you can use perform dance for bardic music and bardic spells might be used before striking.

You can definitely use dance for Bardic Music, but all Bard spells have Verbal component, and not too many of them last all that long. If you are looking to bounce in and bounce out, then you probably don't want to dual wield, and may be more effective with a single weapon. The Heavy Pick will work fine, and will make your crits memorable. So, some suggestions based on that:

1. Power Attack is a solid feat, and is best used with a weapon wielded in two hands. You can't use it with light weapons (read the feat), so since you pretty much need to be using a light weapon to use two-weapon fighting effectively, the two feats don't work well together. Also, Two-weapon fighting works best when you have some sort of bonus damage (like a rogues sneak attack). As you've stated you don't really want any rogue levels, then I'd suggest you scrap the two-weapon feats entirely.

2. Dodge and Mobility are required for Shadowdancer, so if you are set on that, then you may as well take Spring Attack, as it seems to fit with what you've mentioned you want.

3. Combat Reflexes is a decent feat, and it's required for Shadowdancer.

4. Why do you have Weapon Finesse? Is there a build reason you want it? If it's just for Duelist, you'd be better off without any levels of Duelist. Probably dump those levels into Shadowdancer. Heck, even just 4 more levels of Dragon Disciple would be better.

5. Is there a reason you don't want to use Wood Elf's favored class of Ranger instead of Fighter?

[LordOfCain]

Okay I will probably dump duelist for 2 more levels of Dragon Disciple and 2 more levels of Shadowdancer. Thank you for mentioning Spring Attack, I had forgotten all about it. I will probably get Spring Attack instead of Weapon Finesse.

[Pluto!]

Hot damn these contextless build threads have some bad builds.