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Scowling Dragon
2015-08-03, 05:07 PM
Well I got my hands on Monte-Cook's; The Strange

An interesting concept, and a game primarily focused on crossovers and alternate realities. I find the cypher system not to my taste at all, and would easily use Mutants and Masterminds for it.

However, what bothers me is that whilst I like the worlds provided, and the concepts given it doesn't answer a very important question:

The worlds themselves are all smaller then earth, and essentially "Float" in The Strange. A cosmic goo of sorts.

However what bothers me is that what do the inhabitants think of this? Its fine for a fantasy world because people assume thats all there is, or a couple of certain examples (Especially ones aware of the pocket dimension nature of their world), but what about ones based off of the real world?

Like the 11th Riech Concept. Its based off of the REAL world. Its even worse because the system says that only a percentage of populations is aware of their surroundings in more of a sense then just "Playing a role". Well what about that percentage? What does a Nazi possessing the spark think.

"Say Mien Fuhrer. Wvere we always just 80,000 sqvare miles flouting in endless blue goop? Vwats our history again? Why are we building all this expansive crap if ve don't uze it againzt anybody?"

I know potentially this can be explained in this case alone, but what about the other cases? How does one explain to its inhabitants about this sort of nature?

Can anybody explain how to get around this? Or explain how this works?

Yora
2015-08-04, 03:00 AM
Sounds very similar to the main problem of Numenera. An interesting idea that is raised, but never actually explored to a point where you have something solid to work with.

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-04, 11:44 AM
Sounds very similar to the main problem of Numenera. An interesting idea that is raised, but never actually explored to a point where you have something solid to work with.

Its made worse by the fact that the cypher system is just really unsuited to this type of game. Because its so simple, there are very few elements to work with to such a point that very few items have a stable "Crunch" behind them to make a world feel interesting rather then just a flavor.

What does a sword slash do? Lower might. What does a disease do? Lower might. Magical Enfeeblement? Lower Might.
Robot Arm? Raise Might. Transform into a creature? Raise Might. Super size? Raise Might. Super strengh? Raise might. Super Health? Raise Might. Super endurance? Raise might. Regeneration? We can't have this in the system reliably.

Like with Mutants and masterminds you can do this too, re-fluffing just an effect, but it still has many more variables to play with and more ways to create impressive and fun effects, especially reliably.

What the system flaunts as a strong-suit is that it can "Let players do cool stuff early on even without levels without unbalancing the game"

And its brilliant method of doing so....Is single use items. Wow, pretty impressive, Maybe next time you will discover the unheard of brilliance of more then 3 stats!

Its just stupid thought, because cool stuff Is stuff I can do reliably. Like if I find teleporting cool, getting to teleport once isn't all that exiting (Its a one time use emergency escape at best). Being able to Teleport around like Nightcrawler is. And the stuff that lets you do cool stuff reliably (Grow to giant size, build robots, fly, cast spells) is STILL based on a level system, so egg on your face Monte Cook.

Yora
2015-08-04, 12:13 PM
But, you know... exploring! ...mystery. ...stuff?

:smallwink:

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-04, 12:25 PM
Your absolutely right. No other system has ever, EVER given out XPs for exploration.

All my issues are RETRACTED! :smallbiggrin:

dream
2015-08-05, 12:25 AM
Scowling Dragon, can you provide a link to your roleplaying game? I was thinking of running something new and I'd like to give it a quick review ....

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-05, 08:56 AM
Im not Monte Cook, but here it is (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/129405/The-Strange-corebook?src=hottest_filtered)

Tal_Akaan
2015-08-05, 11:17 AM
Well I got my hands on Monte-Cook's; The Strange

An interesting concept, and a game primarily focused on crossovers and alternate realities. I find the cypher system not to my taste at all, and would easily use Mutants and Masterminds for it.

However, what bothers me is that whilst I like the worlds provided, and the concepts given it doesn't answer a very important question:

The worlds themselves are all smaller then earth, and essentially "Float" in The Strange. A cosmic goo of sorts.

However what bothers me is that what do the inhabitants think of this? Its fine for a fantasy world because people assume thats all there is, or a couple of certain examples (Especially ones aware of the pocket dimension nature of their world), but what about ones based off of the real world?

Like the 11th Riech Concept. Its based off of the REAL world. Its even worse because the system says that only a percentage of populations is aware of their surroundings in more of a sense then just "Playing a role". Well what about that percentage? What does a Nazi possessing the spark think.

"Say Mien Fuhrer. Wvere we always just 80,000 sqvare miles flouting in endless blue goop? Vwats our history again? Why are we building all this expansive crap if ve don't uze it againzt anybody?"

I know potentially this can be explained in this case alone, but what about the other cases? How does one explain to its inhabitants about this sort of nature?

Can anybody explain how to get around this? Or explain how this works?

Regardless of the size, or nature of the recursion, its inhabitants just accept it. It’s like the movie Pleasantville. Nobody knows what lies beyond their town, and nobody cares. To them everything in their lives makes perfect sense so there is no reason to question it.

As for those with the spark? Well, I would say that is up to the person running the game. That person, in that recursion, that has the spark, is only relevant if you want them to be. So what that character thinks/does is up to you.

I don’t want the book to tell me that all the Nazi’s with the spark in the 11th Riech recursion start questioning their convictions, fall in to a deep depression, and live out the rest of their sad lives on the coach in their underwear, because that’s not how I want to use them. I want them to realize there are other worlds out there to push their agenda on, and squash beneath their boot at the first sign of resistance. Now they have come to the attention of The Estate and you have a premise for a whole game.

I got a little carried away there, but I hope it helps. I realize it sounds like a bit of a copout to say that it’s up to the person running the game, but really that’s the only way they could do it. They simply can’t account for every NPC that might have the spark, because at that point they are completely free willed and have infinite possibilities. At least that’s the way in interpreted it when I read it.

mephnick
2015-08-05, 11:21 AM
Sounds very similar to the main problem of Numenera. An interesting idea that is raised, but never actually explored to a point where you have something solid to work with.

Seems to be Cook's thing. When I first read through Numenera I couldn't wait to run it. Once I started running it I found myself sitting at my computer trying to prep the next session thinking "..there's nothing actually here."

The guy really needs to partner up with someone that can put more concrete form to his ideas.

Psyren
2015-08-05, 12:11 PM
This whole thread made me think of this. (https://xkcd.com/171/)

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-05, 01:28 PM
Regardless of the size, or nature of the recursion, its inhabitants just accept it. It’s like the movie Pleasantville. Nobody knows what lies beyond their town, and nobody cares. To them everything in their lives makes perfect sense so there is no reason to question it.

Then who cares about "Exploring" it then? Its difficult enough keeping in character, but if that CHARACTER has to be in character and suspend his disbelief then its a whole level of crazy.

Like lets Say this takes place in CYBER CAMELOT:
(Fighting with all they have got, riding to danger evil beware our powerful horses carry us there!)
Where does trade come from? Like France doesn't exist in Cyber Camelot. Like in a game with real exploration, I could maybe change the status quo by getting help from France, but in this world It doesn't exist and none of the Knights would question that possibility. Making the whole experience feel fake.

Why BOTHER changing the status quo? Its not a real, and it doesn't feel real.


As for those with the spark? Well, I would say that is up to the person running the game. That person, in that recursion, that has the spark, is only relevant if you want them to be. So what that character thinks/does is up to you.

Well its nonsense thats what It means to me. It would be entire dimensions of screaming people banging at the walls of their cages wanting to know where their history and reality wen't.


I don’t want the book to tell me that all the Nazi’s with the spark in the 11th Riech recursion start questioning their convictions, fall in to a deep depression, and live out the rest of their sad lives on the coach in their underwear, because that’s not how I want to use them. I want them to realize there are other worlds out there to push their agenda on, and squash beneath their boot at the first sign of resistance. Now they have come to the attention of The Estate and you have a premise for a whole game.

Well not really. Lets say I needed to stamp out the Nazi world. Well why not just Nuke it? Its only about the size of Kansas and you can get the Nukes from other dimensions to avoid getting it from earth. Who cares about collateral damage? The people are not real. And a dimension of a world of nazis would be a real threat. But this ISN'T a world of Nazis. Its just a small chunk of such a world. Its not like they can ask for reinforcements. And they can't take their Nazi tech out of their dimension without it falling apart so who cares?

Im not saying I would want them to question their lives, I just want it to make sense. Are they gonna try to conquer mars? Demonic Invasion? What!

As a result the whole experience feels flat.


I got a little carried away there, but I hope it helps. I realize it sounds like a bit of a copout to say that it’s up to the person running the game, but really that’s the only way they could do it. They simply can’t account for every NPC that might have the spark, because at that point they are completely free willed and have infinite possibilities. At least that’s the way in interpreted it when I read it.

I understand its lazzie-fair attitude of "Do whatever you want" but its often contradictory on what happens and as a result I get a better impression to best NOT explore the recursions and just leave the place alone.

Like in the microcosm universe, it mentions that just making the inhabitants THINK of their predicaments can cause them to spark, so you think thats a noble goal....But wait! Thats a terrible goal.

Making a puppet realize that its not real, has no history, and its far off family doesn't exist would be an existential nightmare! Just best to leave them alone.

Point is that 50 different shades of pleasantville isn't interesting and the way its all laid out doesn't conduct adventure well.

Seems to be Cook's thing. When I first read through Numenera I couldn't wait to run it. Once I started running it I found myself sitting at my computer trying to prep the next session thinking "..there's nothing actually here."

A basic issue is that the world is pretty much just another fantasy world. The fact that its magic is nanobots is so identical that it doesn't matter and all your left with is a pretty mediocre setting.

Tal_Akaan
2015-08-05, 04:03 PM
Then who cares about "Exploring" it then? Its difficult enough keeping in character, but if that CHARACTER has to be in character and suspend his disbelief then its a whole level of crazy.
Like lets Say this takes place in CYBER CAMELOT:
(Fighting with all they have got, riding to danger evil beware our powerful horses carry us there!)
Where does trade come from? Like France doesn't exist in Cyber Camelot. Like in a game with real exploration, I could maybe change the status quo by getting help from France, but in this world It doesn't exist and none of the Knights would question that possibility. Making the whole experience feel fake.
Why BOTHER changing the status quo? Its not a real, and it doesn't feel real.

Why would you want to change the status quo?

When I read through the book I got the feeling that the idea isn’t to go to Cyber Camelot and play a Cyber Camelot game. The idea is that something is happening there that potentially threatens Earth. Each organization that I read about had their own motivations for doing things in other recursions. Maybe there are some people that translate to Ardyn because living the MMO is better than playing one on a computer, but it still boils down to if that’s the game you want to play then you have to come up with the things that the players are going to do.


Well not really. Lets say I needed to stamp out the Nazi world. Well why not just Nuke it? Its only about the size of Kansas and you can get the Nukes from other dimensions to avoid getting it from earth. Who cares about collateral damage? The people are not real. And a dimension of a world of nazis would be a real threat. But this ISN'T a world of Nazis. Its just a small chunk of such a world. Its not like they can ask for reinforcements. And they can't take their Nazi tech out of their dimension without it falling apart so who cares?
Im not saying I would want them to question their lives, I just want it to make sense. Are they gonna try to conquer mars? Demonic Invasion? What!
As a result the whole experience feels flat.
Who says they’re not real people? This is a very loaded question with all sorts of religious and philosophical points of view that we don’t need to get in to here, but that one question could be the basis for a whole Strange campaign.

I seem to recall reading, if the recursion, or Earth, supports the technology then it can come through translation. So if one of these Nazi’s that has the spark finds a way to create an Inapposite Gate that connects his recursion to Earth, then proceeds to “wake up” his Nazi buddies they could mount an invasion. Then they pose an actual threat. If they don’t pose a threat why Nuke them?



I understand its lazzie-fair attitude of "Do whatever you want" but its often contradictory on what happens and as a result I get a better impression to best NOT explore the recursions and just leave the place alone.
Like in the microcosm universe, it mentions that just making the inhabitants THINK of their predicaments can cause them to spark, so you think thats a noble goal....But wait! Thats a terrible goal.
Making a puppet realize that its not real, has no history, and its far off family doesn't exist would be an existential nightmare! Just best to leave them alone.

You’re right that is a terrible thing to do…

But if someone were doing it that would be a great reason to go to all kinds of recursions to try and track him down.


Point is that 50 different shades of pleasantville isn't interesting and the way its all laid out doesn't conduct adventure well.
You’re right there may be recursions out there that offer no reason to ever go there…

How is that a problem? You, as the person running the game, can create an infinite number of reasons to go there. Take the Pleasantville example on the surface there is no reason what so ever to set an entire adventure there, but what if a local Mob Boss, who is quickened, translates to Pleasantville and uses it as a place to keep the records of all the politicians he has in his pocket. For me this book has endless possibilities. Each recursion is only limited by what you want it to contain. I’ve personally never looked to a game book to tell me why I should send my player to any location. Why they go anywhere is based on the story we decide to play.

I totally understand if the game isn’t your style or it’s not what you thought it was, but I think claiming that it isn’t finished is a false statement.

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-05, 06:39 PM
OK I decided not to engage in constant back an fourths, list down your general replies and arguments (You may do the same if you wish) to the best of my ability:


Why would I want to change the Status Quo/ The Point is not about the places but about their connections to earth

You answered the first question with the second. If the Evil Queen of the MegaButt Blaster Beatles is assembling her evil army and they will translate through (For no explained reason) and in the cannon of that world they know exists another realm called the land of the awesome cool skateboarding butterflies, I would try to enlist for their help. But they don't exist because the rules are nonsensical and unfinished!

So as a result the whole experience feels flat. Its no fun to explore because there is nothing really to explore and interact with in a meaningful way because nothing is meaningful INTENTIONALY.


There IS stuff to do in Pleasantville

Your idea is the ultimate example of how much is wasted in this concept. There is an alternate reality and all a mob boss can do is store his papers there. Might as well just be a different country for all the creativity that requires. What a waste.


What are the people? There is allot of stuff to do with this concept!

Not really. Its just a walrus tusk (As in Mcguffin reasoning). Its just the way things are in the Strange and doesn't really mean anything. The book even stresses how unsparked people are just shadows going through the motions. A Nazi Thug just does thuggish things because I guess thats what he does. Not because out of any real motivation. In fact they can't even pass through a Translation Gate (But an Inoposite gate only)

And you bring up another good point. If one could spark a person by just bringing up the illogic of the world, then a whole population would spark through like wildfire even from a small percentage. And a massive existential crisis would follow.

Like how do they even survive? You can't just rip off a chunk of a world and make it self sustaining.

Its just UNFINISHED nonsense.


What does Translate?

Nope. You read wrong. Unless it just is some exception (At which point why not make it the rule?), objects do not translate through.

Cyphers do I guess, sometimes, but the game makes that an arbitrary, world breaking reason and there are not enough cyphers to make any otherworld attack meaningful. And in fact creatures DIE after a few Days.

And because of the nature of the rules, nothing ever becomes a threat. Like the 1 thing that is a Cypher (That can run out at any time. Nice one, Monte cook) that is a vehicle of some sort, is the Nazi War Walker. And even if that DID translate, because of the way the rules make everything the same, at best its just slightly better then heavy armor (By one point) and does as much damage as a submachine gun.

Whooo! Run for the hills!

And most importantly: Why should I care?

Why should I care about these alternate realities except for keeping away planetvores? Outside of just a traditional force of people (And another waste of the concept) invading, the other realities don't really give threaten earth, and all the chachkies you could get from the alternate realities just fade away in any case after limited time or use (Thanks Cypher System).

There are not "Limitless Possibilities" of what can be done. In fact there is a very limited supply of what can be done, the plot is pretty much the same every time:

Prevent the one thing that can carry over from carrying over otherwise we are screwed. And that can be just accomplished by shutting down the Innoposite portal.

Or

Get the thing that can be carried over to carry over.

Kaun
2015-08-05, 07:31 PM
Yeah Monte has some solid ideas, but he really needs a team to flesh them out for him.

The cyphers are a bit of a hit and miss thing. Mechanically they can add a lot of fun to a game. But trying to make them fit the fluff can be bloody hard.

"But why can i only carry X of them?"

"What do you mean i cant fix it so it works again?"

"So can i like study it an make more of them?"

They are a nice concept, but he half arsed it. And it tended to rub all my players wrong sooner or later.

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-05, 07:49 PM
Cyphers are just 1 time use magic items with a different name. Im not sure what makes them so revolutionary.

Tal_Akaan
2015-08-05, 08:10 PM
We could go back and forth about this, but ultimately we have very different opinions and I don't think either one of us is going to change our position on the matter...

But I can clear up one thing.

From the book page 135:

Inapposite Gate
Objects: Objects with special qualities that rely on particular laws to exist or function (like Magic or Mad Science, for example) begin to deteriorate and eventually either lose their special function or completely disintegrate into dust if the new recursion doesn't have the same law.

Now, undoubtedly you will claim some flaw in the game because for this to work the recursion have to abide by the same laws for this to work, but I think it make sense.

This game may not be for everyone, but no game is. You need the recursions to have more substance for their use to have an impact on the game, I get it and that makes sense for your style. For me, they give me enough to work with. I make them fit my game I don't have to make my game fit them.

I maintain that just because it doesn't fit what you want does not make it unfinished.

Kaun
2015-08-05, 08:31 PM
Cyphers are just 1 time use magic items with a different name. Im not sure what makes them so revolutionary.

Ehh there not really revolutionary when you break them down to their base elements. I think its more the attitude towards them.

I know for most of my DnD games over the year, potions become more of a form of currency then actually something the players used.

It more that they have been made such a key element of the system, and they dont really fit in most settings.

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-05, 09:12 PM
I maintain that just because it doesn't fit what you want does not make it unfinished.

And I maintain that I like the concept but its flawed in its execution. Example:


Inapposite Gate
Objects: Objects with special qualities that rely on particular laws to exist or function (like Magic or Mad Science, for example) begin to deteriorate and eventually either lose their special function or completely disintegrate into dust if the new recursion doesn't have the same law.

So yeah. A nazi spider tank would either fall into dust or break apart in around 6 days. And so would an ubermensh. Unless the Nazis can conquer the world in 6 days at most its not going to happen


This game may not be for everyone, but no game is. You need the recursions to have more substance for their use to have an impact on the game, I get it and that makes sense for your style. For me, they give me enough to work with. I make them fit my game I don't have to make my game fit them.

Good for you. For your sake Il call it very shallow instead of unfinished.

Let me stress that Im not against others having fun. If its good for you its good for you. But I believe that the setting has many multiple contradictory elements that lessen the fun of a dimension hopping system aspect.


Ehh there not really revolutionary when you break them down to their base elements. I think its more the attitude towards them.

I know for most of my DnD games over the year, potions become more of a form of currency then actually something the players used.

It more that they have been made such a key element of the system, and they dont really fit in most settings.

Good point.

YPU
2015-08-10, 11:20 AM
Bit of thread necromancy, but I read this topic a week ago or so and kept thinking about it.

A few points that kept coming up in my musings; Cyphers, first of I really got the impression that these were in here cause they are the namesake of the system. Also they do add another layer of "interesting stuff" which the system might need. The way I recall them (and it's been a while since I read the game) is that they are like ur-code in the strange. A pure distilled piece of event, be that telleportation or explosion or whatever. This being a random line of " base code" all realities form themselves around them, filling in the blanks as to how this would exist within their laws. If you look at it like that the shape a cypher takes can tell you a lot about the recursion you are in. Which could be cool. But I agree that they feel tacked on.

Considering the recursion only making sense as long as they don't look outside and the idea that they would have an existential crisis if they realized how small their world really was. I always figured most recursions as being more of a playset then anything else. Having your players chase somebody down trough multiple worlds, each presenting its own opportunities and challenges.

The nazi ruled world isn't there to invade earth or ardyn on its own. And while the notion of a world ruled by over the top nazis is a nightmare to us this is quite literally how this world should be by its very nature, which is a interesting idea to play with. But it is also a loaded gun, ready to be picked up used and abused by some awoken villain. (moriaty pops out to me) Sure the idea of an entire recursion aware of its nature aching to invade earth is a fun one, that's why Ruk (Dutch for wank btw) is one of the two main recursions. It's evil, its mad and ready to strike.

Lastly, I'm not that big a fan of the system myself, but the setting has some charm to me. Personally I've been toying of using fate instead. Replacing one or two aspects would sort most of the translations out, add in some replaced stunts and your set. Fate has a lot of bolt on systems for super or other powers which aren't too complex so they could be used as well. Just my two cents.

Oh yea, something else. I am the regular GM for most groups I played in, but I am a bit ADHD when it comes to settings. I might be all for traveller today and that d20 fantasy western thing the next week. I tend to come back to some things every now and again but the idea that I could play a single campaign where all these settings have a place to live, with characters both fitting in in each setting and having a continuing story is kind of appealing to me. maybe even the biggest reason I like the setting. Also once the whole world hopping things starts to get old you can get more into the metta of the strange with the paladins of chaos of whatever they were called and the whole nature of the strange itself, and I like that kind of metta mechanics at a settings core actually being sort of a setting of its own, if that makes any sense.

GungHo
2015-08-10, 11:38 AM
I think I'd have liked the game better if it were essentially Sliders, with a bit of a cross-worlds cold war, a-la Enterprise's Temporal Cold War. It's easy to know where the Nazis are coming from, but McCarthy USA might not be your friends, whereas the Softer Soviets might be the guys you need in your corner. Basically, TORG taken down several notches of weird.

Scowling Dragon
2015-08-10, 01:13 PM
Overall I agree with you YPA.

With some tweeking and discarding of pointless rules, and some expansion and revision, and probably with a different system of mechanics, this would work great.

Some starts would be:

Your "Loaded Gun" idea. Like a world is in Stasis until in contact with another force. The nazis are always preparing for "Something" and are always ready to strike. But when in contact with a living individual, what the individual instils in the world with purpose and retroactively makes it make sense.

Maybe take away the "Things decay when taken out" rule because they just ruin the whole point of this. The whole setting ADHD is a reason why it appealed to me as well.

Sliders is pretty fun.

YPU
2015-08-11, 01:39 PM
Overall I agree with you YPA.
With some tweeking and discarding of pointless rules, and some expansion and revision, and probably with a different system of mechanics, this would work great.


Like your saying, take the small part that you like and transfer it to a system that you actually want to play. I do love the idea of the fold over half character sheets. I feel one should strife to transfer that to any other system your trying to do this game in.



Maybe take away the "Things decay when taken out" rule because they just ruin the whole point of this. The whole setting ADHD is a reason why it appealed to me as well.


I get where your coming from with this, but I can live with it being there. It kind of explains why most worlds revert back to their status quo after a while, even tough something "strange" was introduced. the foreign material is either assimilated if its compatible or literally fades if its not.

I'm also disappointed in the three class set-up the system has. It forces more constrained character generation without adding anything much to enforce the actual setting or feel of the game. And the magic class (enigmas?) feel just like that, cypher in numenera has a fighter a expert and a mage, so the strange should have one also. Meh.