Fixing Level Adjustment in my game.

[gadren]

So, I know I'm not the first to try and "fix" level adjustment. However, I like my players to have options, and wanted to try and make the system work.

So, please take a look at my house rules for level adjustment. Too strong? Too weak?

Standard Races:
Races without a level adjustment add +2 to an ability score of their choice that does not already have a bonus.

Level Adjusted races:
Level adjusted races do not get fewer class levels than other races. However, they have other restrictions to balance them out:

The following applies to all LA races:
Races with racial hitdice: Remove all racial hitdice.
Races with ability scores bonuses of more than +4: Reduce any ability scores bonus of +6 or higher to a +4.
Races with natural spell casting: Racially-granted spellcasting (such as with driders), cannot grant you an effective level in a spellcasting class greater than your number of PC levels.
For example, a drider Adept 3/Wizard 4 could also cast spells as a 4th level cleric or a 4th level sorcerer (depending on the choice made when he took his first PC level). A drider Expert 2/Rogue 6/Wizard 4 could cast spells as a 10th level wizard, a 6th level cleric, or a 6th level sorcerer.

The following applies to races with a specific level adjustment:
LA +1: If the race has more than a total of +4 in ability scores bonuses (including penalties), reduce the bonuses until the total is +4. Then, choose ONE of the following options: take a -2 penalty to an ability score of your choice, lose 1 feat, or take at least 1 level in an NPC class (such as expert, warrior, adept*, or magewright**) instead of a PC class.
LA +2: Take at least 2 levels in an NPC class (such as expert, warrior, adept*, or magewright**) instead of a PC class. At level 5, you may replace one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level).
LA +3: Take at least 3 levels in an NPC class (such as expert, warrior, adept*, or magewright**) instead of a PC class. At level 6, you may replace one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level). At level 9, you may choose to give up your 9th level feat to replace another NPC level with a PC level.
LA +4: Take at least 4 levels in an NPC class (such as expert, warrior, adept*, or magewright**) instead of a PC class. At level 7, and again at level 10, you may replace one level of your NPC class with a PC level (in addition to gaining another PC level).
LA +5 or More: Not allowed as a player race.

*All Adepts use the option from page 256 of the Eberron Campaign Guide, adding spells from one domain to their spell list.
**Magewright PCs add magic missile and acid splash to their list of spells known at 1st level.

UPDATE: Modified LA +3 a bit.

[gadren]

Just a note on my rationale:

* LA races usually suck because of the hitdice hit.
--- - NPC classes are weaker, but still allow the monstrous PC to be useful/survive at lower levels.
* Racial abilities make less of a difference at higher levels.
--- - At higher levels, there is a limited amount of buy-back, allowing NPC classes to be traded in for PC classes.
* Taking NPC classes hurts "mundane" classes a lot less than it hurts spell casters.
--- - I'm fine with this, because "mundane" classes need more love, and a +4 to a casting stat is way more powerful for a spellcaster than +4 strength is to a fighter

[OldTrees1]

Looks like the start of a fixed system. It narrows some of the issues with systemic balance. I presume you would also reevaluate the LA of each specific race a player requests(since WotC was bad at evaluating and used an inconsistent RHD:LA ratio in their "balancing").

[Taelas]

--- - a +4 to a casting stat is way more powerful for a spellcaster than +4 strength is to a f

It is quite the opposite.

[Renen]

It is quite the opposite.

+10% chance the enemy will just die in some horrible fashion because they failed vs a SoD effect is better than
+10% chance to hit with a sword and deal some damage?

[Taelas]

+10% chance the enemy will just die in some horrible fashion because they failed vs a SoD effect is better than
+10% chance to hit with a sword and deal some damage?

If a spell doesn't have a save, increasing your casting stat does precisely nothing (except maybe let you cast it more often).

Increasing a mundane's main stat, on the other hand, does something 100% of the time.

[gadren]

If a spell doesn't have a save, increasing your casting stat does precisely nothing (except maybe let you cast it more often).

Increasing a mundane's main stat, on the other hand, does something 100% of the time.

Ok, correction then. A casting stat bonus is much more valuable to an optimized caster than it is to a fighter.

[Necroticplague]

Ok, correction then. A casting stat bonus is much more valuable to an optimized caster than it is to a fighter.

Actually, it's the opposite, an optimized spellcaster uses spells that don't allow saves (Walls, Polymorphs, Stone Shape, Black Tentacles, various clouds) more often, so a high casting stat is less beneficial to them.

[Taelas]

Actually, it's the opposite, an optimized spellcaster uses spells that don't allow saves (Walls, Polymorphs, Stone Shape, Black Tentacles, various clouds) more often, so a high casting stat is less beneficial to them.

This.

The value of high stats in high optimization has nothing to do with casters -- it's about getting various bonuses from the stats. A deflection bonus to AC equal to your Cha modifier, for example. But the most you get out of a high casting stat is "just" extra spells (which, theoretically, you could simply wait until the next day for). You can combine the two to squeeze out those extra spells, as they are still nice to have (and optimization is all about getting as much as possible out of things), but it isn't as necessary as high Str is to a Fighter.

[Necroticplague]

This.

The value of high stats in high optimization has nothing to do with casters -- it's about getting various bonuses from the stats. A deflection bonus to AC equal to your Cha modifier, for example. But the most you get out of a high casting stat is "just" extra spells (which, theoretically, you could simply wait until the next day for). You can combine the two to squeeze out those extra spells, as they are still nice to have (and optimization is all about getting as much as possible out of things), but it isn't as necessary as high Str is to a Fighter.

And if you want more spells per day, there are cheaper alternatives to raising your stat, mostly in terms of various magic items that let you convert spell slots from off-days into on-day spell slots (Glyph Seals come to mind).

[MorgromTheOrc]

I like the choice given in +1 LA, so is the NPC class the only option above that or would for example if it was LA +3, would you allow them to just take all three options?

[gadren]

I like the choice given in +1 LA, so is the NPC class the only option above that or would for example if it was LA +3, would you allow them to just take all three options?

Not as written, no. I feel like that would make the "cost" for the higher LA races too low. The +1LA has more lenient options because most of them are pretty near to the normal power level, anyway, especially with the "standard" races getting and extra +2 ability score.

How do you feel about it?

[MorgromTheOrc]

Not as written, no. I feel like that would make the "cost" for the higher LA races too low. The +1LA has more lenient options because most of them are pretty near to the normal power level, anyway, especially with the "standard" races getting and extra +2 ability score.

How do you feel about it?

Well I do still feel like more choice would be good with class limitations of that level starting to be potentially build killing(not so much for martial but it still makes it hard) but I also agree it would seem to easy then to go with a high LA race. Maybe require at least one NPC class for any above 1 and raise it to at least 2 at 4? But that might still make it a little unbalanced, so some kind of sliding scale.

[gadren]

Well I do still feel like more choice would be good with class limitations of that level starting to be potentially build killing(not so much for martial but it still makes it hard) but I also agree it would seem to easy then to go with a high LA race. Maybe require at least one NPC class for any above 1 and raise it to at least 2 at 4? But that might still make it a little unbalanced, so some kind of sliding scale.

Well at higher levels the LA +2 is only stuck with 1 NPC level, and LA +3 and +4 stuck with 2 NPC levels.
As a sort of compromise for LA +3, I could also stipulate that at level 9, instead of gaining your normal 9th level feat, you can instead exchange one more NPC class level for a PC level.

[marphod]

Well at higher levels the LA +2 is only stuck with 1 NPC level, and LA +3 and +4 stuck with 2 NPC levels.
As a sort of compromise for LA +3, I could also stipulate that at level 9, instead of gaining your normal 9th level feat, you can instead exchange one more NPC class level for a PC level.

When gaining a PC level, can it be a Prestige Class? Can I get a second level of the Prestige class at the same time with my normal level buy?
What happens to ranks in skills that are no longer class skills or become class skills?

How do you explain if I trade a casting level for a non-casting level?

[Crake]

I use something of a similar system where the LA is gestalted instead, at the cost of flat xp that still contributes to ECL. Since it's a flat amount of xp, as you go up in levels it becomes less and less significant, until it ultimately results in no adjustment (unless you have really high LA). Since it costs actual xp, it still puts you behind the other players, so you don't feel like you're just getting something for free, and the system also doubles as a way to allow gestalts to play with non gestalts. If anyone's interested in giving it a read, link is in my signature.

[gadren]

When gaining a PC level, can it be a Prestige Class? Can I get a second level of the Prestige class at the same time with my normal level buy?
What happens to ranks in skills that are no longer class skills or become class skills?

How do you explain if I trade a casting level for a non-casting level?

The level trade uses the same retraining step from page 198 of PHB2. So yes, it can be a prestige class, assuming you'd still meet the prereqs for that prestige class without your prestige class levels. None of the options allow you to retrain all of the NPC levels, so the class skill thing isn't really an issue. If you trade in a casting level for a non-casting level, you lose the ability to cast those extra spells. So, you should be careful if you took like 4 levels in adept or magewright and then used that to take levels in a prestige class that requires you to cast 2nd level spells, because retraining those NPC levels would mean you no longer met the prereqs for your prestige class.

[Necroticplague]

I would like to ask; how would this proposed system interact with templates? Because, if you use each template seperately, it seems Lolth-touched could become 'STR+2, fear immune' for free (cap its benefits to STR+4, lower STR by two to pay), feral becomes '+4 STR, +2 con, fast healing, two oversized claws, fast healing, darkvision, and NA equal to medium armor, and speed boost' for merely -4 int and -2 dex (soak penalty to stats using bonus to wis, two cancel out). Basically, just looking at it, most good LA1 templates become essentially free under your rule. Especially since it looks at net stat mods for the caps, thus meaning you encourage dump stats. Any template that gives stats is essentially free if its LA1.

[gadren]

I would like to ask; how would this proposed system interact with templates? Because, if you use each template seperately, it seems Lolth-touched could become 'STR+2, fear immune' for free (cap its benefits to STR+4, lower STR by two to pay), feral becomes '+4 STR, +2 con, fast healing, two oversized claws, fast healing, darkvision, and NA equal to medium armor, and speed boost' for merely -4 int and -2 dex (soak penalty to stats using bonus to wis, two cancel out). Basically, just looking at it, most good LA1 templates become essentially free under your rule. Especially since it looks at net stat mods for the caps, thus meaning you encourage dump stats. Any template that gives stats is essentially free if its LA1.

Well, for one, as GM I still make a final call on LA adjustments, since there are some races where I really do not know what the designer was smoking.

Two, the rule was built for LA races, not templates, since part of the balance is that standard races also get a +2 to an ability of their choice.
For templates, I'd probably make NPC classes the only option. For a lot of templates, I'd probably also rule that their effective LA is higher than published. (I'd probably do that even if I weren't using these rules. Again, see game designers and smoking unknown substances.)

[gadren]

I use something of a similar system where the LA is gestalted instead, at the cost of flat xp that still contributes to ECL. Since it's a flat amount of xp, as you go up in levels it becomes less and less significant, until it ultimately results in no adjustment (unless you have really high LA). Since it costs actual xp, it still puts you behind the other players, so you don't feel like you're just getting something for free, and the system also doubles as a way to allow gestalts to play with non gestalts. If anyone's interested in giving it a read, link is in my signature.

This is a bit off topic, and I'm sure some will consider this blasphemous, but I actually did away with xp a long, long time ago. I like everyone to be the same level, I don't like spending a ton of time consulting complicated charts and calculating xp for each encounter ("let's see, so we have 3 5th level characters, and 2 4th level characters, and they fought a CR 5 monster that had help from his CR 3 lieutenant and five CR 1 minions..."), I don't like xp costs (converted them all to expensive material components), and honestly I don't really see what the advantage of it all is.

Instead, I typically just say that for every ten encounters, the party gains a level. Some encounters are counted as half-encounters if they are easy, while some encounters are counted double (or even triple, on rare occasions). It makes things run way smoother, in my opinion.