Anyone else dislike #448 as much as I did?

[Charmy]

This is probably my least favorite OoTS strip.

If I were to DM something like this, every player at my table would cry foul. NPC battle or not.

I believe as a general rule when you read the D&D rulebook you look for the SPIRIT with which the rules were made, not split hairs with minutae. It is clear that the Symbol of Insanity was designed with its level of power (Unlimited targets afflicting PERMANENT INSANITY - one of the most powerful status effects in D&D) because it shouldn't be used as an offensive spell!

Now before you start arguing about what is 'offensive', the spell is designed to be a trap. A trap primarily used to defend things, prepared BEFOREHAND. If you say that because it didnt' require an attack roll that its not offensive, then Magic Missile is not offensive because there is no attack roll made. If the bouncing ball was not an offensive use of the Symbol, but trying to touch someone with the symbol is (which is described as an example in the spell description), then that is absurd. Why try to touch someone with it then rather than just hold it up in front of them as they're swinging at you? That way you accomplish the SAME GOAL - using the spell in combat. Think about the SPIRIT in which the words were written, stop thinking like a damn lawyer trying to find loop holes. Any DM worth his salt wouldn't buy such reasoning :smallsigh:

No doubt about it, this is an OFFENSIVE usage of Symbol of Insanity. Ask any WoTC representative and they'd say the same thing. Write to Dragon Magazine (if it still existed), they would say the same thing.

Whats even more maddening about all this is how people are defending the fact that the Paladins and Clerics all failed their saves because the ball bounced in and out of their range, forcing multiple saves.

Now, I am not a rule monger. Rich has bent the rules before. However, this is yet MORE exploiting of the rules to make a spell far more powerful than its supposed to be.

Basically you are saying that ANY caster, should they wish, can turn Symbol of Insanity into an offensive AoE spell with NO SAVE ALLOWED. All you have to do is draw it on a bouncy ball and throw it into the air. Um... NO. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Really, the only way I would be satisfied with the results of this strip is if in the next one a dying paladin calls out "CHEATER." and then the lawyers come in and drag Xykon away, or reset time back to the beginning of the fight so he can win this fight WITHOUT breaking rules in a very unsatisfying way.

Oh, and also the lawyers on their way out would put a dunce cap on every single paladin there.

As others have mentioned, the Sapphire Guard was !!!created!!! FOR THIS PRECISE PURPOSE yet they were not buffed to the teeth, and their throne room wasn't absolutely loaded with protection from evil spells? No summoned creatures?

Good should not be stupid. If they were this dumb, this civilization should not have been able to survive as long as it has. :smallmad:

[CardinalFang]

First of all, I wish to open with a quote "Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."

Secondly, I think the point was that Xykon is an evil genius maniac who is not above thinking of things that probably aren't legit. He's into the drama and the appearances, and is perfectly willing to fudge it a little to get the best effect. What else does he have to un-live for, really?

[Nightmarenny]

This is probably my least favorite OoTS strip.

If I were to DM something like this, every player at my table would cry foul. NPC battle or not.

I believe as a general rule when you read the D&D rulebook you look for the SPIRIT with which the rules were made, not split hairs with minutae. It is clear that the Symbol of Insanity was designed with its level of power (Unlimited targets afflicting PERMANENT INSANITY - one of the most powerful status effects in D&D) because it shouldn't be used as an offensive spell!

Now before you start arguing about what is 'offensive', the spell is designed to be a trap. A trap primarily used to defend things, prepared BEFOREHAND. If you say that because it didnt' require an attack roll that its not offensive, then Magic Missile is not offensive because there is no attack roll made. If the bouncing ball was not an offensive use of the Symbol, but trying to touch someone with the symbol is (which is described as an example in the spell description), then that is absurd. Why try to touch someone with it then rather than just hold it up in front of them as they're swinging at you? That way you accomplish the SAME GOAL - using the spell in combat. Think about the SPIRIT in which the words were written, stop thinking like a damn lawyer trying to find loop holes. Any DM worth his salt wouldn't buy such reasoning :smallsigh:

No doubt about it, this is an OFFENSIVE usage of Symbol of Insanity. Ask any WoTC representative and they'd say the same thing. Write to Dragon Magazine (if it still existed), they would say the same thing.

Whats even more maddening about all this is how people are defending the fact that the Paladins and Clerics all failed their saves because the ball bounced in and out of their range, forcing multiple saves.

Now, I am not a rule monger. Rich has bent the rules before. However, this is yet MORE exploiting of the rules to make a spell far more powerful than its supposed to be.

Basically you are saying that ANY caster, should they wish, can turn Symbol of Insanity into an offensive AoE spell with NO SAVE ALLOWED. All you have to do is draw it on a bouncy ball and throw it into the air. Um... NO. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Really, the only way I would be satisfied with the results of this strip is if in the next one a dying paladin calls out "CHEATER." and then the lawyers come in and drag Xykon away, or reset time back to the beginning of the fight so he can win this fight WITHOUT breaking rules in a very unsatisfying way.

Oh, and also the lawyers on their way out would put a dunce cap on every single paladin there.

As others have mentioned, the Sapphire Guard was !!!created!!! FOR THIS PRECISE PURPOSE yet they were not buffed to the teeth, and their throne room wasn't absolutely loaded with protection from evil spells? No summoned creatures?

Good should not be stupid. If they were this dumb, this civilization should not have been able to survive as long as it has. :smallmad:
Alright everyone together

This is a joke comic, it was a joke about munchkins, ofcourse it was foul.

[Ralfarius]

Yes, some people disliked it. A quick perusal of the forum would yield such an answer to the query in your thread title.

[IronSoldier820]

It made me sad, some of those paladin guys looked especially cool. Mainly the guy with the black glowing sword wearing the bandanna that didn't go insane.

[Demented]

I'd just like to say this:

The Paladins' deaths may have been horrible, tragic, and sudden, but that didn't happen because Rich wanted to show some petty rule abuse. Rich did it to evoke some emotion... Grief, horror, shock, anger, hatred... Whatever works to temper your heart.

If you need to be angry, don't be angry at the spell.

Be angry at Xykon.

[Klev]

My whole problem was the last panel, the Paladin killing herself, Xykon making a joke (are we supossed to laugh at it?)

If the Paladins died bravely against a swarm of Metor Swarm or something I would be very content with it, but this way...meh...I hated

BTW: Why don't you turn this into a pool ?

[Dolash]

A lot of comics have gotten strong reactions, this is the first in a while that seems outright upset with the Giant for what he wrote instead of debating the real content of the comic.

[dreaming_pup]

It made me sad, some of those paladin guys looked especially cool. Mainly the guy with the black glowing sword wearing the bandanna that didn't go insane.

... I agree with you so much it hurts. I want to know more about him, and I know that nothing will ever arise about him. *cries silently* That, and Dark Cloak. That person deserves some credit for his/her shock. ;_;

[Fineous Orlon]

Sumthin on your mind?

Yeah, you're right. But Xykon does things with flair, and on counterpoint we just had a Death Knight killed with a dragonhead ex machina. It's dramatic and funny, and inventive, but, no I wouldn't allow it probably.

However, Xykon did it with style, and the DM allowed it. He could have flown in and AoE'd them to death, it'd probably work.

The thing that bothered me was that O'Chuul fell for the distraction. If he and the few around Xykon had concentrated on killing Xykon, that may have worked.

The drama was actually O'Chuul choosing to listen to Xykon instead of 'staying on target,' at least to me.

He should have made his save versus the paralyzing touch, in my mind, and barely thwarted Xykon, but I am not the Giant. Actually, I would think more of the paladins would have made their save.

OK, yes, i have no idea ATM how to spell OCHEWEL.

[Demented]

Yeah, I kind of want to cry for the paladins. All that hope to see at least some of them live through the battle, to escape or return for cameos, has been reduced to a small, tiny ember.

And that ember only exists to see if O'chul manages to die honorably, rather than be dominated and turned into a mindless tool.

[Fineous Orlon]

You know, folks have said this shows how evil Xykon is, because other methods would work as well.

What if Xykon does it this way for fun and evil, and also to remind Redcloak who he shouldn't mess with?

[K2]

Here is what I think of your complaint: Meh.
To explain, it was funny--comics are suppose to be funny--it served its purpose.

[Alfryd]

Whats even more maddening about all this is how people are defending the fact that the Paladins and Clerics all failed their saves because the ball bounced in and out of their range, forcing multiple saves.
The save DC for Symbol of Insanity would be 10 + 8 + 10 = 28, a level 8 spell by an epic-level lich sorcerer with cha in the 30's. A level 12 Paladin with 18 cha and 18 con will have a fort save of 16, giving him a 45% chance of saving successfully. So at least half the room go insane and start killing the other half. In practice, very few of those present will be anywhere close to that level with such favourable stats, so even fewer will make the save.

As for the use of the spell... look, D&D was fundamentally broken to begin with when it allowed epic spellcasters to nuke small armies. If you wanted to fix the spell-description, insert something to the effect of 'The spell is nullified if the symbol is moved more than 5 ft from it's original point of casting," or some such.

As to the plot content, sure, I didn't exactly enjoy seeing an act of senselessly cruel mass slaughter, but you've all been chuckling away at Belkar, so my sympathies are limited.


The thing that bothered me was that O'Chuul fell for the distraction. If he and the few around Xykon had concentrated on killing Xykon, that may have worked.
No. No, it wouldn't. They never had a snowball's chance in a blast furnace. Get over it.

[Klev]

Here is what I think of your complaint: Meh.
To explain, it was funny--comics are suppose to be funny--it served its purpose.

I think the whole problem is exactly that, it may even fall in the rules or something, but for me, at least, it wasn't funny

EDIT: Actually if this is was suppossed to be funny, and more jokes start to appear like that (which I don't fell it is gonna happen) I would stop reading OoTS just like I did it with 8 bit.
The whole think was dark and unfunny, that is my problem with the strip, it left with a bad sensation at the stomach. If Rich WANTED this reaction (which I hope he did) that congratulations for him he achevied his result, if he wanted to be FUNNY ... than well , he failed miserably from my point of view.

[Machiara]

Funny? How exactly was it funny?

I am a huge fan of the Order of the Stick. I own all the available books and have "Start of Darkness" on preorder (which this strip almost makes me regret). I like almost all of the strips, and love quite a few of them; every so often there's a strip which doesn't do much for me, but they are few and far between.

Which is why I am so surprised at the current strip. I HATED it. It's cheap. (wouldn't the throne room these Paladins have been sworn to protect have some sort of, you know, wards or protective spells?). It's stupid (a symbol on a bouncing ball drives a roomful of Paladins insane? :P). It's anticlimactic (Xykon wins without any sort of a fight). It's unfunny (Paladins are killing themselves! I can hardly contain my mirth).

Yes, Xykon is evil. Great. But you can show evil in a MUCH more dramatically satisfying manner. I cannot express the depth of my disappointment with this strip. It's as if Sauron ensorcelled the horses of the Riders of Rohan and had the steeds kill them all before their big charge on the Pellenor Field. Sure, the Riders aren't the main characters, but dramatically they should win or lose on the battlefield.

Not like this. I'm disgusted. It nearly ruins my enjoyment of the entire strip. :P

[Vuzzmop]

Seriously man, it's a comedy strip about D&D rules, if Rich didn't pull this sort of thing it would'nt be OOTS!

[Vuzzmop]

Can I get an amen?

[brian c]

They didn't fail their saves because of the multiple bouncing. They failed their saves because it's an 8th level spell from an epic or close to epic sorceror, and paladins have low will saves. Even for a cleric with a high will save, a level 8 cleric with 18 wisdom has a +10 will. Against the save DC of ~25, that means they need to roll a 15 to succeed, so 30% chance. Now consider that NPCs generally don't have 18s in their stats, maybe a 16 for +3 modifier, and there might have only been one level 8 cleric in that room. Its completely reasonable to think that everyone failed their saves on only one attempt.

Also, as Xykon pointed out, he could have just killed them all in other ways, such as maximized fireball or another meteor swarm. Rich used that cheap trick with the bouncy ball because it's a comic strip and it's supposed to be funny- I know I laughed.


Can I get an amen?

Amen!

also:

The save DC for Symbol of Insanity would be 10 + 8 + 10 = 28, a level 8 spell by an epic-level lich sorcerer with cha in the 30's. A level 12 Paladin with 18 cha and 18 con will have a fort save of 16, giving him a 45% chance of saving successfully. So at least half the room go insane and start killing the other half. In practice, very few of those present will be anywhere close to that level with such favourable stats, so even fewer will make the save.

You were more generous with his Cha and with the Paladin's levels than I was. Anyway though, Symbol of Insanity is a Will save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm).

[Chineselegolas]

I have to disagree with you. While it is twisting the rules, I for one was crack up laughing and just reach for a blank character sheet if my DM pulled it on me. The sheer ingeniousness of it.
And it is a bouncy ball, they are really cool

And as CardinalFang quoted "Evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb"


And Amen!

[Vuzzmop]

the ultimate evil, spheres of rubber

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please feel free to discuss this in the official #448 thread. Thanks.