Orc Dirty Fighter

[Shadowscale]

Anyone care to try to help me iptimize a build using this archtype on a pure Orc? Any help would be appreciated I play in lots of games on and offline and tend to play orcs. I have the advanced race guide for any changes with racial traits feats of favorite class bonuses.

[Psyren]

The key strength of this class is that it lets you Dirty Trick as many times as you have attacks at 9. Dirty Trick can really hamper an opponent's defenses so this is a worthwhile maneuver to optimize. You can full-attack, make the first hit or two into dirty tricks (remember, you can see if a given attack during a full-attack lands before choosing what to do with the others) and then use all the rest to pummel that foe into submission, particularly with things like Power Attacking their newly reduced (blind + entangled) AC. You also get the ability at 13 to apply two conditions per dirty trick.

Once you have those two abilities though, more levels in Fighter aren't doing much for you. Personally I would multiclass at that point, or at least VMC so that some of the extra bonus feats can be put to use.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Seems like going TWF would be a good option, more attack = moar dirty trick attempts.

[Ssalarn]

You really want the Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat) feat to go along with this to get the most "oomph" out of it once you hit the second half of the game. This is also one of the archetypes where Whirlwind Attack (along with a good reach weapon) can be surprisingly useful as an area debuff.

[Shadowscale]

What variant multi class should I consider? Also do I have any minimums for attributes I should be aiming for? Or should I just max out strength and con? I was thinking of going savage and day runner, not sure how harmful a lack of a ranged weapon could be though...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd probably with Mutation Warrior for the mutagen.

[Oddman80]

I'd probably with Mutation Warrior for the mutagen.

You can't take levels of a second fighter archetype after having taken Orc Dirty Fighter.

Same reason you can't take lore warden.
You could go Mutagenic Mauler Brawler Archetype, though

[Ssalarn]

What variant multi class should I consider? Also do I have any minimums for attributes I should be aiming for? Or should I just max out strength and con? I was thinking of going savage and day runner, not sure how harmful a lack of a ranged weapon could be though...

You still want Improved and Greater Dirty Trick (in addition and as prereqs for Dirty Trick Master), so you probably need to squeek out at least a 13 Int, unless you're using the Combat Trick rules from Unchained to bypass the INT requirement.


If you're going to VMC, I'd say either Barbarian or Rogue, although Sorcerer isn't terrible either with the right Bloodline.


You can't take levels of a second fighter archetype after having taken Orc Dirty Fighter.

Same reason you can't take lore warden.
You could go Mutagenic Mauler Brawler Archetype, though

Actually, Mutation Warrior is totally compatible with Dirty Fighter. Mutation Warrior trades out Armor Training and Armor Mastery, Dirty Fighter trades out Bravery and Weapon Training.


If you take Mutation Warrior for the Mutagen and discoveries to grab things like wings, fortification, and/or some self-healing, Dirty Fighter for the fast dirty tricks and bonuses to performing them, then grabbed Barbarian as your VMC for Rage and Superstition to boost your accuracy and damage further while also shoring up your saves.... You've got a pretty nasty combatant.

[Oddman80]

Also,
Here is one I made that is pretty beastly
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1085086

Only thing that may seem off is the Orc racial features - as they were from a home brew game I was in.

[Ssalarn]

I'm just glad this thread happened. I'm totally making an orc Fighter (Dirty Fighter, Mutation Warrior) with Barbarian VMC and building towards Dirty Trick Master for my next game.

[Psyren]

You can't take levels of a second fighter archetype after having taken Orc Dirty Fighter.

Same reason you can't take lore warden.

This is false, the reason you can't go Dirty Fighter Lore Warden is that both replace Weapon Training and Bravery. Mutation Warrior replaces Armor Training, which Dirty Fighter doesn't touch, thus they are compatible.

And flavor-wise it's a slam dunk; an orc who has no compunctions about hitting below the belt would also have no compunctions about drinking nasty performance enhancing goop to get an edge.

[Ssalarn]

***And flavor-wise it's a slam dunk; an orc who has no compunctions about hitting below the belt would also have no compunctions about drinking nasty performance enhancing goop to get an edge.

The fact that it's mechanically awesome as well definitely doesn't hurt things :smallwink:

So, VMC Barbarian for Rage and Superstition (also Uncanny Dodge and DR), Mutation Warrior for wings, self-healing, and bigger bonuses via Greater and Grand Mutagen, Dirty Trick Master so you can have the most amazing at-will debuffing available... What else takes this to the next level? Other than a reach weapon.

[Shadowscale]

Since TWF was suggested let's say an Orc double axe and sorceror VMC for Orc bloodline, how does that seem?

[Ssalarn]

Since TWF was suggested let's say an Orc double axe and sorceror VMC for Orc bloodline, how does that seem?


The biggest downside to Orc bloodline is that that first bloodline ability is actually not useful to you, since it ends just before the start of your next turn. Orc double-axe isn't bad, though a reach weapon would probably be better. Assuming you grab Dirty Trick Master, you're going to be more about wanting to slap your debuffs on as many enemies as possible before you actually start dishing out real damage, kind of like a caster.

[The Random NPC]

If you're gonna use an Orc Double Axe, you might want to grab Orc Weapon Expertise (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc) for another +2 to Dirty Tricks.

[Oddman80]

This is false, the reason you can't go Dirty Fighter Lore Warden is that both replace Weapon Training and Bravery. Mutation Warrior replaces Armor Training, which Dirty Fighter doesn't touch, thus they are compatible.

And flavor-wise it's a slam dunk; an orc who has no compunctions about hitting below the belt would also have no compunctions about drinking nasty performance enhancing goop to get an edge.

Sorry - I misunderstood the recommendation that was being made. I thought it was being recommended that after he got everything he wanted from the dirty fighter progression, to then move into mutation warrior.

My bad.

[Shadowscale]

Staying single classes for three dirty tricks at 19 could make it worth it, I think? Is it legL to dip brawler since it's part fighter for the ignore int feature?

[Dondasch]

Consider taking levels in Pit Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pit-fighter). Weapon Trick at 3rd lets you deal damage with a dirty trick 1/round, and the rest of the class isn't bad either.

[Psyren]

Sorry - I misunderstood the recommendation that was being made. I thought it was being recommended that after he got everything he wanted from the dirty fighter progression, to then move into mutation warrior.

My bad.

No worries and hopefully I didn't sound harsh :smallsmile:


If you're gonna use an Orc Double Axe, you might want to grab Orc Weapon Expertise (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc) for another +2 to Dirty Tricks.

This won't work - Dirty Trick isn't one of the maneuvers you can perform with your weapon, like Trip or Sunder. (The aforementioned Pit Fighter is one of the exceptions to this rule, but the Orcish Double Axe lacks the necessary "performance" property.)

[grarrrg]

Staying single classes for three dirty tricks at 19 could make it worth it, I think? Is it legL to dip brawler since it's part fighter for the ignore int feature?

Only 17 level actually.
And yes, depending on Rolls/Point-Buy, Brawler may very well be worth the 1 level.


This won't work - Dirty Trick isn't one of the maneuvers you can perform with your weapon, like Trip or Sunder. (The aforementioned Pit Fighter is one of the exceptions to this rule, but the Orcish Double Axe lacks the necessary "performance" property.)

There's a feat for that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/performance-weapon-mastery-combat)
"You treat all weapons you are proficient in as if they had the performance weapon quality."
Not sure that it's worth 2 feats for a +2 Untyped bonus, but it is an option.

[Shadowscale]

I like the idea of being a con sponge and using all the half Orc and orc feats to optimize not dying from and still being useful at negative hit points. I believe born alone and reverse feint are two really good Orc only feats. So would orc or abyssal VMC sorceror on this archtype with the double axe with a fighter be considered sub optimal?

[Dondasch]

There's a feat for that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/performance-weapon-mastery-combat)
"You treat all weapons you are proficient in as if they had the performance weapon quality."
Not sure that it's worth 2 feats for a +2 Untyped bonus, but it is an option.

Keep in mind that if you perform a combat maneuver with a weapon, you get to add the bonuses from the weapon. Also, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide has a Dueling weapon enchantment which adds a luck bonus to CMB with the weapon equal to twice the enhancement bonus (so a +5 Dueling weapon grants +15 to CMB with it).

[grarrrg]

Keep in mind that if you perform a combat maneuver with a weapon, you get to add the bonuses from the weapon. Also, the Pathfinder Society Field Guide has a Dueling weapon enchantment which adds a luck bonus to CMB with the weapon equal to twice the enhancement bonus (so a +5 Dueling weapon grants +15 to CMB with it).

In order to use a weapon, he needs Pit Fighter for 3 levels, and must use a Performance Weapon.
Which, overall, ain't a bad trade.

The aforementioned Orc Weapon Expertise Feat would give a +2 Untyped bonus to CMB, BUT there are no Orc+Performance weapons. So in order to get the +2 Untyped bonus, you'd have to spend another feat to get it to count as such.


And that Dueling (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20%28PSF G%29) is crazy. Seriously.

[Psyren]

Even with PSFG Dueling, Dirty Trick is (appropriately enough) a tricky case. Basically you have to describe what you're doing and the GM has to sign off on it, it's not quite as simple as roll CMB, compare to CMD. Whatever you describe has to incorporate the weapon in some believable way in order to get that bonus. It's the most rules-light of all the maneuvers, almost 5e-esque in its execution.

Two of the examples given for "blinding dirty trick" for instance are "I throw sand into his face" or "I angle my weapon to reflect a light into his eyes." The former obviously doesn't use the weapon at all. The latter does, but it's probably only going to work if there's a bright light around (e.g. the sun in a clear sky), and of course the GM might rule that it only imposes "dazzled," and the creature in question may not be vulnerable to that at all (e.g. a fire elemental). Similarly, the "I hit my foe in the groin with the flat of my blade/the haft to impose sickened" could use the weapon, but probably won't work on anything that's immune to crits, or on undead or constructs.

[Molosse]

Even with PSFG Dueling, Dirty Trick is (appropriately enough) a tricky case. Basically you have to describe what you're doing and the GM has to sign off on it, it's not quite as simple as roll CMB, compare to CMD. Whatever you describe has to incorporate the weapon in some believable way in order to get that bonus. It's the most rules-light of all the maneuvers, almost 5e-esque in its execution.

Two of the examples given for "blinding dirty trick" for instance are "I throw sand into his face" or "I angle my weapon to reflect a light into his eyes." The former obviously doesn't use the weapon at all. The latter does, but it's probably only going to work if there's a bright light around (e.g. the sun in a clear sky), and of course the GM might rule that it only imposes "dazzled," and the creature in question may not be vulnerable to that at all (e.g. a fire elemental). Similarly, the "I hit my foe in the groin with the flat of my blade/the haft to impose sickened" could use the weapon, but probably won't work on anything that's immune to crits, or on undead or constructs.

I've always treated it as an exercise in imagination. How many ways can you inflict X status ailment with Y weapon without actually stabbing/clubbing/slashing the bugger.

[Dondasch]

Two of the examples given for "blinding dirty trick" for instance are "I throw sand into his face" or "I angle my weapon to reflect a light into his eyes." The former obviously doesn't use the weapon at all.

I'm fond of "I make a shallow cut across his forehead, so that his blood trickles down into his eyes".

[Psyren]

I'm fond of "I make a shallow cut across his forehead, so that his blood trickles down into his eyes".

This works fine but you'll need a different description vs. enemies that don't bleed, enemies with sufficient DR/regen, enemies with no forehead above their eyes etc. etc.


I've always treated it as an exercise in imagination. How many ways can you inflict X status ailment with Y weapon without actually stabbing/clubbing/slashing the bugger.

Indeed - as with any rules-light mechanic, imagination is king.

[Ssalarn]

I like the idea of being a con sponge and using all the half Orc and orc feats to optimize not dying from and still being useful at negative hit points. I believe born alone and reverse feint are two really good Orc only feats. So would orc or abyssal VMC sorceror on this archtype with the double axe with a fighter be considered sub optimal?

Yeah, they're both pretty terrible for that build actually. Abyssal VMC gives you claws, which you can't use with the orc double axe, so you don't really get anything out of it until 7th level, when you get weak electric resistance and poison resistance, a mediocre feat at 11th level (all the decent ones you should have taken way earlier), and then finally at 15th level you get the only thing that was really worthwhile, an inherent bonus to STR.

Orc bloodline gives you a buff that only benefits your allies, at 7th level you a bonus to saves vs. fear and a small natural armor boost, and then at 15th level you get the same STR boost the Abyssal bloodline gives.

Orc is probably a bit better than Abyssal, but they're both less useful then what you'd get from some of the other options:

Barbarian VMC is useful right out the gate and Rage comes online 12 levels earlier than the inherent bonuses from the VMC bloodlines, scales up to greater rage, and lets you take full power rage powers and gain DR/-.

Rogue would net you 4d6 sneak attack plus evasion, uncann dodge, and improved uncanny dodge, which are pretty useful defensive features.

Cavalier VMC is surprisingly good for a Fighter- since Tactician comes online at 11th level, you can use it to get Coordinated Charge, probably the best teamwork feat available, and there's some good orders out there that would go well with the damage boost from Challenge.

Magus VMC could be very handy since the Arcane Pool gives you free weapon enhancement, and you can grab an arcana like Pool Strike for some extra damage. At 15th level you can grab a familiar and have it be a wand monkey to boost your survivability and action economy.

Most of the other VMCs are going to be pretty subpar for an orc Fighter using a double weapon.

[Shadowscale]

I'm liking the idea of Cavalier VMC, I worry it will make me very MAD though, maybe if I take a level of Brawler I can at least dump INT even if the level won't give me anything else.

[grarrrg]

maybe if I take a level of Brawler I can at least dump INT even if the level won't give me anything else.

Well, the default Brawler also gets Imp. Unarmed Strike and a bump in Unarmed damage, Martial Flexibility for a feat of your choice 3/day 1-minute duration.
Mutagenic Mauler drops Martial Flexibility and gives you the Mutagen ability. +4 to STR isn't too shabby, although the downtime (1-hour per dose) is a little steep.
Snakebite Striker drops Martial Flexibility for straight up 1d6 Sneak attack. Might be your best bet overall, once they're pants/blinded/etc... pile on the damages!

[Shadowscale]

So orc double axe TWF dirty weapon fighter with a single brawler dip and cavalier VMC, hopefully I can make this work, and hopefully both kinds of multi classing are allowed, does this build even sound good?

[Psyren]

I wouldn't bother with VMC Cavalier. VMC Rogue is a far stronger choice for your build - You get useful defenses (evasion, uncanny dodge) and any time you Dirty Trick (Blind) someone or even just flank them you'll get sneak attack damage on top of all the other damage you're doing. (Note that this sneak attack will also stack with the +1d6 you get from your Snakebite Striker Brawler dip, for a total of up to +5d6 on each attack when they're blinded.) VMC Rogue also fits better thematically - everything about your character is geared around hitting below the belt and being underhanded, even the name.

[Shadowscale]

I wouldn't bother with VMC Cavalier. VMC Rogue is a far stronger choice for your build - You get useful defenses (evasion, uncanny dodge) and any time you Dirty Trick (Blind) someone or even just flank them you'll get sneak attack damage on top of all the other damage you're doing. (Note that this sneak attack will also stack with the +1d6 you get from your Snakebite Striker Brawler dip, for a total of up to +5d6 on each attack when they're blinded.) VMC Rogue also fits better thematically - everything about your character is geared around hitting below the belt and being underhanded, even the name.

You're right on the money there actually, this just oozes Orc, any idea for any type of starting ability scores with 20 point buy I should be heading for? I'm thinking this will be lots of fun.

[Psyren]

Enough Dex for the TWF line and everything else to Str. (Personally I would go for Dex-SAD along with Agile Maneuvers but you can't finesse a Double Axe.)

[Shadowscale]

Enough Dex for the TWF line and everything else to Str. (Personally I would go for Dex-SAD along with Agile Maneuvers but you can't finesse a Double Axe.)
Might as well use an orc's strength is the thing. Now the only issue lies in if VMC and standard are allowed on the same character.

[Sayt]

Enough Dex for the TWF line and everything else to Str. (Personally I would go for Dex-SAD along with Agile Maneuvers but you can't finesse a Double Axe.)

If you include 3pp stuff, DSP put out Double Weapon Finesse which lets you do just that.

That said, as Shadowscale says, might as well take advantage of that strength. They do have a feat in beta which lets you run TWF off of Strength, but you wouldn't want to go with that, and a VMC.

[Psyren]

Might as well use an orc's strength is the thing. Now the only issue lies in if VMC and standard are allowed on the same character.

Yes but not the same class. So you can go Fighter/Brawler VMC Rogue, but not Fighter/Rogue VMC Rogue.

[Username.]

Surprised this wasn't mentioned: the brawling weapon property can be slapped on a cestus, which, while it is being wielded, doesn't interfere with wielding any other weapons. Though expensive, this will let you get a bonus to CMB that stacks with that from Dueling.

By adding tassels, ribbons, and other accessories to your main weapon, you grant justification for dirty trick use with the weapon. Frankly, you should be talking to the DM before the weapon is used and simply clarify that its use is appropriate: case-by-case adjudication, even if done unbiasedly, would be extremely obnoxious on the DM's part. That would be, of course, according to the rules, but those are bad rules.

[Psyren]

Again, appropriate use depends on the enemy in question too, not just the weapon itself. So a blanket pre-approval isn't really feasible, it does have to be case by case.

"But you said I could punch guys in the nuts!"
"Nuts on an Iron Golem usually mean something very different."

[Username.]

. . . which is why it's a bad rule.

[Shadowscale]

. . . which is why it's a bad rule.

Hey three dirty tricks per attack with full BAB and the TWF line, I'll do fine, especially with high strength and delicious sneak attack damage.

[Psyren]

. . . which is why it's a bad rule.

Eh, I'd say it just sticks out like a sore thumb in a rules-heavy game like Pathfinder, that's all. Personally I think that clause is helpful, because there are some creatures it should be more difficult to land some dirty tricks on than others, and I'd rather a broad rejection clause for the GM than a mechanic that enables abject silliness by RAW and just gets banned.