When to get Tome of Intellect +5

[SangoProduction]

We are making characters at level 15 (with wealth of level 17). So, at which level should I "assume" that a wizard would normally get a Tome of Intellect +5 (ignoring cheese)....know what? This is a question for the DM.....I'll ask anyway.

[heavyfuel]

We are making characters at level 15 (with wealth of level 17). So, at which level should I "assume" that a wizard would normally get a Tome of Intellect +5 (ignoring cheese)....know what? This is a question for the DM.....I'll ask anyway.

I'm assuming you mean a Tome of Clear Thought?

Anyway, the tome costs 137500 GP, so it's a fair acquisition by the time you have double that amount (as per DMG guidelines, you shouldn't start with an item that is worth more than half your WBL).

Because of this, it's safe to assume you have one by the time you reach lv 17 wealth. So congrats, you should be able to afford it with no problems.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A ring of three wishes is cheaper and can get you that +5 inherent bonus (you do need a little cheese but whatever) so you might want to consider that.

[Taelas]

A ring of three wishes is cheaper and can get you that +5 inherent bonus (you do need a little cheese but whatever) so you might want to consider that.

How, precisely, are you getting five wishes worth out of a ring of three wishes?

[Brova]

How, precisely, are you getting five wishes worth out of a ring of three wishes?

wish emulating planar binding. planar binding binding an Efreet. Efreet granting three wishes.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wish loops, ask for 2 normal increments and use the last wish to get another ring of three wishes and use those other 3 wishes for the remaining bonuses. If your DM says no to wishing for a ring of three wishes, then wish for a candle of invocation and summon an Efreeti.

I did say it was cheesy, didn't I? :smallwink:

[Taelas]

wish emulating planar binding. planar binding binding an Efreet. Efreet granting three wishes.

That is not "a little cheese." It also doesn't require anywhere near a ring of three wishes.


Wish loops, ask for 2 normal increments and use the last wish to get another ring of three wishes and use those other 3 wishes for the remaining bonuses. If your DM says no to wishing for a ring of three wishes, then wish for a candle of invocation and summon an Efreeti.

I did say it was cheesy, didn't I? :smallwink:

Yeah, pretty sure the wishing for a ring of three wishes is only going to land you with a ring of three wishes that has its wishes depleted.

As for the candle of invocation... that's not "a little cheese."

[Dondasch]

Wish loops, ask for 2 normal increments and use the last wish to get another ring of three wishes and use those other 3 wishes for the remaining bonuses. If your DM says no to wishing for a ring of three wishes, then wish for a candle of invocation and summon an Efreeti.

I did say it was cheesy, didn't I? :smallwink:

Couldn't you save more money by buying a scroll of wish instead of a ring of three wishes? Just wish for the ring, and use the ring to wish for another. You now have 5 wishes.

Also, if avoiding "wishing for more wishes" levels of cheese, I believe hiring a caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) is marginally cheaper than the tome, provided you can find one.

[nedz]

Once you can cast Wish it becomes a lot cheaper, though you do need to burn some XP.

Actually there are several options — just mix and match

Tome
Purchase Price 27,500 gp (per +1)
Crafting Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (per +1)

Ring of Wishes
Purchase Price 32,650 gp (per Wish)
Crafting Cost 3,825gp + 5,306 XP (per Wish)

Wish
Casting Cost 5,000 XP (per Wish)

Scroll of Wish
Purchase Price 28,825 gp (per Wish)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Couldn't you save more money by buying a scroll of wish instead of a ring of three wishes? Just wish for the ring, and use the ring to wish for another. You now have 5 wishes.

Also, if avoiding "wishing for more wishes" levels of cheese, I believe hiring a caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) is marginally cheaper than the tome, provided you can find one.

:shrugs: I just went with the first Wish granting item that came to my mind. A scroll works just as well.

[SinsI]

It is cheaper to get 2-charge staff of Twin Repeat Wish. (~54k)

[Crake]

It is cheaper to get 2-charge staff of Twin Repeat Wish. (~54k)

Except that since a Twin Repeat Wish would take a 16th level spell slot, that's technically an epic item as per "Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th." it would actually cost 540k. For magic item creation purposes the spell slot required is what the "spell level" is tied to.

[Rubik]

The cheapest way is to Planar Bind two efreet with the understanding that if they grant you a full complement of Wishes today, you'll make the same number on their behalf, but only if the Wishes are granted in good faith, and no Wishes are to be made or granted in such a way as to screw you or them over. Yes, efreet tend to be Evil, but Evil doesn't mean stupid.

"Mutually beneficial" is the phrase we're going with, here.

This way costs nothing, and it generates nothing but goodwill from all the parties involved (and Wishes; can't forget them).

And you can get +5 to all stats this way at or before level 11.

[marphod]

It is cheaper to get 2-charge staff of Twin Repeat Wish. (~54k)

How are you getting around the epic item premium?

That uses what, a 15th level spell slot?

[Rubik]

How are you getting around the epic item premium?

That uses what, a 15th level spell slot?Metamagic and price reduction?

[Crake]

How are you getting around the epic item premium?

That uses what, a 15th level spell slot?

What he actually should do is bind a succubus, have her drain you to 1, then when restoring your levels get dweomerkeeper levels, then make an ice assassin of yourself, repeat the process for a few incantatrixes of yourself, then drain yourself to 1 and restore yourself back to whatever build you had before. Hey presto, you now have a dweomerkeeper who can wish for free 4/day, incantatrixes who can apply metamagic to that wish spell. Applying repeat twin gets you 16 free wishes per day, meaning it would only take 2 days to get +5 across the board to all your abilities.

[Sagetim]

We are making characters at level 15 (with wealth of level 17). So, at which level should I "assume" that a wizard would normally get a Tome of Intellect +5 (ignoring cheese)....know what? This is a question for the DM.....I'll ask anyway.

You'll want it as soon as possible to benefit from the int bonus to skill points per level, if nothing else. Going by wealth by level, you might be able to talk your dm into allowing you to have some backstory about working hard for a tome of clear thought +5 from his mentor, to the exclusion of any other purchases, maybe some rivals and plot hooks in there to make it a little meatier for the DM. Otherwise, as noted, your earliest level for it is with your starting gear at 15 (because you're starting with 17 for cash).

I would suggest against trying to game the system in your backstory with wish stacking/looping/exploiting. You might wind up with someone who is simply dead on arrival, clutching a tome of clear though +5 and dressed in very nice robes while the rest of the party is left wondering who teleported in a dead wizard and how much his stuff is worth.

[Troacctid]

Starting WBL is ultimately an abstraction. It can represent the cash you have on hand at the start of the game, but it also includes items you've owned for a long time. You might have inherited a mysterious tome as a family heirloom and read it when you first became a Wizard, in which case you would have had the bonus since level 1. Or you might buy it with cash at a magic item auction during the first game session, in which case you wouldn't even have its benefit yet.

Talk to your DM and see if you can go with the former option. Since it affects your skill points, it's obviously preferable to have had the bonus for as long as possible. (I assume that's why you asked?)

[Pippin]

Technically if you're a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 1 and optimize your Charisma score so that your Leadership score is 16 or more, you can hire an 11th-level thrall and make him cast Planar Bindings on Efreetis until you have an inherent +5 bonus to all six ability scores.

[martixy]

I've seen charts detailing the answer to that very question.

I just can't reproduce them.

That is, I recall the existence of an excel sheet someone(I think here, on GitP) made that would calculate what to get and when to get it, to get the maximum efficiency out of your money and your stats.

[Psyren]

Yes, efreet tend to be Evil, but Evil doesn't mean stupid.

It does however mean "spiteful," particularly towards uppity mortals. And think about it - if this were a tactic that actually worked, some evil spellcaster (including a dragon or lich) would have pulled it off long before you came along and then worked out some kind of floating wish agreement to shut out any of his rivals.

[Sagetim]

Technically if you're a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 1 and optimize your Charisma score so that your Leadership score is 16 or more, you can hire an 11th-level thrall and make him cast Planar Bindings on Efreetis until you have an inherent +5 bonus to all six ability scores.

Not at level 6. Thralls are still limited by your level with Thrallherd, it's just better than normal leadership because, as I recall, the thrall can be up to your level -1 instead of leadership's -2. This trick could potentially work, but not until you're level 12 or so, due to the level limit being linked to your actual level.

[Rubik]

It does however mean "spiteful," particularly towards uppity mortals. And think about it - if this were a tactic that actually worked, some evil spellcaster (including a dragon or lich) would have pulled it off long before you came along and then worked out some kind of floating wish agreement to shut out any of his rivals.Considering the sheer number of efreet out there, I doubt he could do so with every single individual one of them.

If nothing else, you can always buy a couple of scrolls of Ice Assassin.

[Pippin]

Not at level 6. Thralls are still limited by your level with Thrallherd, it's just better than normal leadership because, as I recall, the thrall can be up to your level -1 instead of leadership's -2. This trick could potentially work, but not until you're level 12 or so, due to the level limit being linked to your actual level.
Quite right, thanks for pointing it out!

[Andezzar]

What's preventing you from buying a scroll of wish/ring of three wishes (with one charge left)/luck blade and wishing a tome of clear thought +5?

[Dondasch]

What's preventing you from buying a scroll of wish/ring of three wishes (with one charge left)/luck blade and wishing a tome of clear thought +5?

Simplicity.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cheese aside, a manual/tome that gives +5 to an ability score costs 137,500 gp, but hiring an NPC spellcaster at the standard rates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) (or multiple spellcasters if necessary) to cast Wish costs 26,530 gp per Wish, or 132,650 gp total for all five. That's almost 5k cheaper than buying the tome.

The reason you can't use a Scroll of Wish or similar to create a Book of Five Wishes is because that Book of Five Wishes costs 25,500 xp to craft, and Wish costs 5,000 xp plus double the xp cost of the item created when creating a magic item. A Scroll of Wish that's capable of creating a Book of Five Wishes would actually cost 283,825 gp. That's why it has a disclaimer on the cost: "Assumes no material component cost in excess of 10,000 gp and no XP cost in excess of 5,000 XP."

Edit: Actually, that Scroll of Wish would probably be able to create a +5 Tome, but the person using the scroll (i.e. your character) would be stuck paying 51,000 xp, whether he wanted to or not.

[Psyren]

Considering the sheer number of efreet out there, I doubt he could do so with every single individual one of them.

And why not? He has unlimited wishes, more than enough to have reshaped reality like clay - unless of course this doesn't actually work and something is preventing him from doing so.


If nothing else, you can always buy a couple of scrolls of Ice Assassin.

For scrolls, the material component must be present when the scroll is made. So not only are you shopping for scrolls of a 9th-level spell from the Frostfell (rare enough), you're looking for one that was made specifically to duplicate an efreet. This is not quite going down to the corner store for milk and eggs.

[Rubik]

And why not? He has unlimited wishes, more than enough to have reshaped reality like clay - unless of course this doesn't actually work and something is preventing him from doing so.Isn't that outside of Wish's normal scope, thereby having a reasonably high chance of failure?


For scrolls, the material component must be present when the scroll is made. So not only are you shopping for scrolls of a 9th-level spell from the Frostfell (rare enough), you're looking for one that was made specifically to duplicate an efreet. This is not quite going down to the corner store for milk and eggs.Eschew Material Components is a thing, and if you happen to be higher level, Wish can give you the scroll you want, since you're creating it out of thin air.

Also, Supernatural Wishes can dispense with the XP cost altogether, making items MUCH cheaper than they otherwise would be. A psion with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) or a wizard/dweomerkeeper could manifest Reality Revision or cast Wish with no cost other than power points or spell slots. A power stone, scroll, or tome made in this way costs 25,000 gp less per manifestation or casting.

[Brova]

For scrolls, the material component must be present when the scroll is made. So not only are you shopping for scrolls of a 9th-level spell from the Frostfell (rare enough), you're looking for one that was made specifically to duplicate an efreet. This is not quite going down to the corner store for milk and eggs.

If you're buying a scroll, either get one made by a guy with Eschew Materials (as suggested below), or get one of shapechange. With shapechange you can assume the form of a Zodar, gaining a supernatural wish.

[Psyren]

Eschew Material Components is a thing, and if you happen to be higher level, Wish can give you the scroll you want, since you're creating it out of thin air.

Eschew only applies to casting spells, not scribing them onto scrolls. But you still haven't answered the question of why every villain isn't doing this if it's so easy, and if efreets are so willing to perform wish-swaps. You brought fluff into this by saying that efreets should be leaping at the chance to trade unperverted wishes for the chance to use wishes on their own behalf, and I do not believe this to be true. "Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead." Granting wishes at all is defined as servitude (per the Noble Djinn entry), so they hate doing it no matter what you sweeten the pot with. However much they might benefit from you using one of their wishes on their own behalf, they'd hate doing so and seek to screw you over.

[SinsI]

Except that since a Twin Repeat Wish would take a 16th level spell slot, that's technically an epic item as per "Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th." it would actually cost 540k. For magic item creation purposes the spell slot required is what the "spell level" is tied to.

Not everything epic automatically gets the x10 multiplier. This staff doesn't.

[Chronos]

The problem with the efreet wish-trade is that the efreet has no reason to trust you. You made sure you could trust it by making the trade contingent on it not screwing you over (as well you should, them being evil and all), but what about its side of the bargain? It's going to assume that you're going to try to take advantage of it the same way it would of you.

[ben-zayb]

As a wizard, you can nab it by level 7. Polymorph into a Shaedling (MM5), and use its Extraordinary Special Attack, Shadow Gossamer, to generate that wondrous item. You can also generate the other tomes this way.

[Taelas]

Where do you get the idea that Shadow Gossamer can create wondrous items?

[ben-zayb]

Where do you get the idea that Shadow Gossamer can create wondrous items?

From RAW. Where do you get the idea that it can't?

[Pippin]

As a wizard, you can nab it by level 7. Polymorph into a Shaedling (MM5), and use its Extraordinary Special Attack, Shadow Gossamer, to generate that wondrous item. You can also generate the other tomes this way.
Wow, this is... even more ridiculous than Zodars' supernatural Wish O_O

How do we justify that Shaedlings don't use their insane extraordinary ability to craft scrolls and rings of wishes over and over? Q_Q

[Taelas]

From RAW. Where do you get the idea that it can't?

From the actual RAW, rather than what you seem to be conjuring in your imagination. It says you can create an item. It does not say you can create a magic item.

[Psyren]

Oh lord, that is pretty badly worded isn't it? You'd think that by the time MM5 rolled around WotC would know better.

[ben-zayb]

From the actual RAW, rather than what you seem to be conjuring in your imagination. It says you can create an item. It does not say you can create a magic item.Of course it won't state magic items only, otherwise they won't be able to create those mundane weapons in the description. Do me a favor, and search all instances of the keyword "item", try to substitute your made definition of items = "nonmagical item only", and inform us how many redundant, contradictory, or nonsensical sentences you'll find. That's just SRD, by the way. We're not even combing the entire 3.5 yet.

EDIT: I'll do you a solid and do the initial work. (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=item)

Is it poorly worded? Yes. Is using it to generate magic items, golems, artifacts, and relics not Rule as Intended? Possibly. Is it RAW, though? Yes.

[Brova]

Of course it won't state magic items only, otherwise they won't be able to create those mundane weapons in the description. Do me a favor, and search all instances of the keyword "item", try to substitute your made definition of items = "nonmagical item only", and inform us how many redundant, contradictory, or nonsensical sentences you'll find. That's just SRD, by the way. We're not even combing the entire 3.5 yet.

EDIT: I'll do you a solid and do the initial work. (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=item)

Is it poorly worded? Yes. Is using it to generate magic items, golems, artifacts, and relics not Rule as Intended? Possibly. Is it RAW, though? Yes.

No, it is not RAW. It's the Munchkin Fallacy. Just because the ability doesn't say you can't create magic items doesn't mean you can. It's too ambiguous to actually work by RAW, so it's not really a problem. If your DM gives you disproportionate power, you will have disproportionate power. Of course, there are other ways to do that, like Pun-Pun and Archivists, so I don't really care.

[Kamai]

To try to get at the heart of the question, it would be unreasonable to assume that you directly had the full tome before level 16 wealth, given the guideline of 50% of your wealth, which in your case would put it at level 14. If the DM is willing to agree to let you buy the tome, and apply it as if you got the lesser versions as soon as you could (either through Wish, or the DM not willing to nickel and dime your WBL by making you use a +1 tome, then a +2 tome, then...), then you'd have:


+1 int
9th level


+2 int
11th level


+3 int
12th level


+4 int
13th level


+5 int
14th level


This is using 25k gold as a rough guideline for a Wish, not the prices of an actual tome.

Edit: I messed up about Wish stacking inherent bonuses, not realizing that the wishes had to be cast in succession. The table above does not actually apply unless the DM is willing to not double charge you for not doing all of the progression at once, whether by removing the line that requires the wishes to be cast in succession, or (in play) if the DM would be willing to readjust to WBL as you found better tomes.

I do have to admit that I'm amused that the conversation went to how to get free wishes, though.

[Psyren]

No, it is not RAW. It's the Munchkin Fallacy. Just because the ability doesn't say you can't create magic items doesn't mean you can. It's too ambiguous to actually work by RAW, so it's not really a problem. If your DM gives you disproportionate power, you will have disproportionate power. Of course, there are other ways to do that, like Pun-Pun and Archivists, so I don't really care.

It's actually not ambiguous. Magic items are items. It's just pretty clearly No Sane DM territory.

[ben-zayb]

No, it is not RAW. It's the Munchkin Fallacy. Just because the ability doesn't say you can't create magic items doesn't mean you can. It's too ambiguous to actually work by RAW, so it's not really a problem. If your DM gives you disproportionate power, you will have disproportionate power. Of course, there are other ways to do that, like Pun-Pun and Archivists, so I don't really care.
Do you have an actual RAW backing you up that "magic item" isn't a subset of "item"? No, really, do what I suggested in my last post and see what you'll find.

And I'm a big fan of "IDGAF but I'll give enough effort to make a post anyway" posts. I can really smell the utter apathy from here.

[Pippin]

I do have to admit that I'm amused that the conversation went to how to get free wishes, though.
Well v3.5 is all about getting free wishes. Don't blame the players!

[Brova]

Do you have an actual RAW backing you up that "magic item" isn't a subset of "item"? No, really, do what I suggested in my last post and see what you'll find.

Do you have RAW that it is? It's an ambiguity. That means any resolution involves DM fiat. And if one of the things the DM can fiat is "ultimate power" and the other is "minor utility", there's not really any reason to worry that the ability in question grants ultimate power rather than minor utility.

[ben-zayb]

Do you have RAW that it is? It's an ambiguity. That means any resolution involves DM fiat. And if one of the things the DM can fiat is "ultimate power" and the other is "minor utility", there's not really any reason to worry that the ability in question grants ultimate power rather than minor utility.

Do I have to spoon-feed the exact references from the link that I've already made, some of which use the term "magic item" and "item" interchangeably, and some of which include "magic item" in the enumeration of possible "items"?

[Psyren]

My copy says:


Shadow Gossamer (Ex): As a swift action, a shaedling can generate a 15-pound or lighter item out of shadow gossamer, and it usually crafts a weapon just before attacking. A shaedling is proficient with any weapon it creates from shadow gossamer, and such weapons have a range increment 10 feet longer than usual. Shields constructed of this substance have their armor check penalty lessened by 1. Shadow gossamer implements dissipate to nothingness if they leave the hands of a shaedling for longer than 1 round.

I don't see anything there about the level of utility said item needs to have. Just that it has to be 15 pounds or lighter, that it dissipates if it leaves their possession, and that they get a bonus if they're weapons.

[Taelas]

Do I have to spoon-feed the exact references from the link that I've already made, some of which use the term "magic item" and "item" interchangeably, and some of which include "magic item" in the enumeration of possible "items"?

You cannot just extrapolate "magic" from nothing. Period. You can make "items". Non-magical substances.

The sheer amount of abuse possible with your "interpretation" (and I use that word loosely) are so staggeringly insane that no DM in their right mind would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever use it. So yeah. It doesn't happen.


Of course it won't state magic items only, otherwise they won't be able to create those mundane weapons in the description. Do me a favor, and search all instances of the keyword "item", try to substitute your made definition of items = "nonmagical item only", and inform us how many redundant, contradictory, or nonsensical sentences you'll find. That's just SRD, by the way. We're not even combing the entire 3.5 yet.

EDIT: I'll do you a solid and do the initial work. (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=item)

Is it poorly worded? Yes. Is using it to generate magic items, golems, artifacts, and relics not Rule as Intended? Possibly. Is it RAW, though? Yes.

Do you know what "context" means? Look it up.

[Psyren]

No one's denying that no sane DM would read it that way. But there is no definition of "item" that excludes magic items, unless they are specifically excluded. It's cheese, not incorrect.

[Taelas]

No one's denying that no sane DM would read it that way. But there is no definition of "item" that excludes magic items, unless they are specifically excluded. It's cheese, not incorrect.

That doesn't matter. You do not have the ability to create magic items. You have the ability to create items.

Look up the Craft skill. By your argument, it lets you make magic items! It doesn't say it doesn't, and it uses "items" throughout.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the ability to create an item gives you the ability to create a magic item. I'm pretty damn sure that you're not going to find that anywhere.

[ben-zayb]

You cannot just extrapolate "magic" from nothing. Period. You can make "items". Non-magical substances.

The sheer amount of abuse possible with your "interpretation" (and I use that word loosely) are so staggeringly insane that no DM in their right mind would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever use it. So yeah. It doesn't happen.



Do you know what "context" means? Look it up.

Kinda read aloud the second header in the third table. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) (aka the Table of Major Wondrous Items).

[Brova]

That doesn't matter. You do not have the ability to create magic items. You have the ability to create items.

Look up the Craft skill. By your argument, it lets you make magic items! It doesn't say it doesn't, and it uses "items" throughout.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the ability to create an item gives you the ability to create a magic item. I'm pretty damn sure that you're not going to find that anywhere.


Kinda read aloud the second header in the third table. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) (aka the Table of Major Wondrous Items).

Yes, you have demonstrated that the terms are sometimes used interchangeably. Taelas is claiming that they are sometimes not. Why is shadow gossamer definitively using item in the "magic or non magic item" sense?

[Taelas]

Kinda read aloud the second header in the third table. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) (aka the Table of Major Wondrous Items).

Even if your argument held water, Shadow Gossamer doesn't waive the requirements to craft items. You still require the appropriate feats, spells, and XP and gold costs.

[Psyren]

That doesn't matter. You do not have the ability to create magic items. You have the ability to create items.

Look up the Craft skill. By your argument, it lets you make magic items! It doesn't say it doesn't, and it uses "items" throughout.

The burden of proof is on you to show that the ability to create an item gives you the ability to create a magic item. I'm pretty damn sure that you're not going to find that anywhere.

Then all they need is the prerequisites - XP, the right feat(s) and a wand or scroll for the spell requirement. The swift action means they can craft in combat. Less broken, but still pretty powerful.

EDIT: Ah never mind, I see you agree!

[Taelas]

Eh, not sure how powerful it is when the item vanishes immediately after it leaves their hands. It does remove downtime for stuff like the tomes, though.

[ben-zayb]

Yes, you have demonstrated that the terms are sometimes used interchangeably. Taelas is claiming that they are sometimes not. Why is shadow gossamer definitively using item in the "magic or non magic item" sense?Because, item, without a qualifier for a particular subset of it, and without a qualifying term used interchangeably with, will default to all possible definitions of it. Consider why do some effects such as Shrink Item and Minor Creation need to qualify the description as pertaining to items that are nonmagical only? What would a lone term, Item, be described as, then?


Even if your argument held water, Shadow Gossamer doesn't waive the requirements to craft items. You still require the appropriate feats, spells, and XP and gold costs.If you are using the same line of logic about Wish also requiring the same, then look up or post it on that proper thread, and get your understanding from there, as I'm not going to repeat what had been argued ad nauseam.



Really, the last two responses are strawgrasping at best.

EDIT: Wait..since the argument is Item being ambiguously defined (actually, zero definition in the glossary), then how about we open a larger can of worms by using RL definition, which is broad? (to put it lightly)

[Brova]

Honestly, I'm just deeply unimpressed. It's a cool utility ability (in that you don't have to carry rope around anymore), but I don't really know that saving time on item creation is a thing I care about when wish exists.

[Taelas]

If you are using the same line of logic about Wish also requiring the same, then look up or post it on that proper thread, and get your understanding from there, as I'm not going to repeat what had been argued ad nauseam.

What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with wish. You need to fulfill each item's requirements to craft it. Even if you can bypass the time -- it's reduced to a swift action -- you need to fulfill the rest.

You would need to show that it somehow bypasses the requirements to get around it, which it doesn't do. It's an Ex ability; they do not waive requirements the way Sp abilities do.

[ben-zayb]

Honestly, I'm just deeply unimpressed. It's a cool utility ability (in that you don't have to carry rope around anymore), but I don't really know that saving time on item creation is a thing I care about when wish exists.Oh what would my life be without impressing you? What I'm unimpressed with is using a ninth-level spell to solve petty problems.

[ben-zayb]

What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with wish. You need to fulfill each item's requirements to craft it. Even if you can bypass the time -- it's reduced to a swift action -- you need to fulfill the rest.

You would need to show that it somehow bypasses the requirements to get around it, which it doesn't do. It's an Ex ability; they do not waive requirements the way Sp abilities do.

Wish can explicitly create mundane or magic items, doesn't it? That line of thinking

[Brova]

Having to determine the correct definition for words to get your argument to work requires DM intervention. Therefore, getting shadow gossamer to behave the way you want it to requires DM intervention. Thus, if you convince your DM to hand you disproportionate power, you will have disproportionate power. Still not broken.


Oh what would my life be without impressing you?

Are you just giving up? Because this sounds like someone who's giving up talking.


What I'm unimpressed with is using a ninth-level spell to solve petty problems.

What? I'm talking about wish versus shadow gossamer in the specific context of magic item creation. And in that case it's super unambiguous. Shadow gossamer saves you a bunch of time, but no money or experience. wish saves you slightly less time, but all the money and all the experience.

[nedz]

To try to get at the heart of the question, it would be unreasonable to assume that you directly had the full tome before level 16 wealth, given the guideline of 50% of your wealth, which in your case would put it at level 14. If the DM is willing to agree to let you buy the tome, and apply it as if you got the lesser versions as soon as you could (either through Wish, or the DM not willing to nickel and dime your WBL by making you use a +1 tome, then a +2 tome, then...), then you'd have:


+1 int
9th level


+2 int
11th level


+3 int
12th level


+4 int
13th level


+5 int
14th level


This is using 25k gold as a rough guideline for a Wish, not the prices of an actual tome.

I do have to admit that I'm amused that the conversation went to how to get free wishes, though.

The problem with inherent stat bonuses is that you can't stack them — it's all or nothing and the previous investment is lost. This is why people usually save up for the +5 item.

[ben-zayb]

Having to determine the correct definition for words to get your argument to work requires DM intervention. Therefore, getting shadow gossamer to behave the way you want it to requires DM intervention. Thus, if you convince your DM to hand you disproportionate power, you will have disproportionate power. Still not broken.By your logic, D&D is played purely via DM intervention, because not every single term in D&D has a definition in-game, and thus will use the RL definition.


Are you just giving up? Because this sounds like someone who's giving up talking.My impression of giving up an argument is starting giving unsolicited, unnecessary comments like saying "I'm unimpressed", which has no bearing on whether the trick works or not.



What? I'm talking about wish versus shadow gossamer in the specific context of magic item creation. And in that case it's super unambiguous. Shadow gossamer saves you a bunch of time, but no money or experience. wish saves you slightly less time, but all the money and all the experience.Why does one save money and experience, while the other doesn't? Is there some invisible text that you are seeing?

[Brova]

By your logic, D&D is played purely via DM intervention, because not every single term in D&D has a definition in-game, and thus will use the RL definition.

No, because there's not a conflict in most of those. There's not some separate context in which sword is used in D&D that would imply the conventional definition of sword does not apply.


My impression of giving up an argument is starting giving unsolicited, unnecessary comments like saying "I'm unimpressed", which has no bearing on whether the trick works or not.

Why does one save money and experience, while the other doesn't? Is there some invisible text that you are seeing?

I'm going to answer these together, because they're closely related. I'm unimpressed for the same reason shadow gossamer costs XP. Read Taeas's argument again.

[ben-zayb]

No, because there's not a conflict in most of those. There's not some separate context in which sword is used in D&D that would imply the conventional definition of sword does not apply.And there's no conflict in Item's in-game use, except the one you made up.

I'm going to answer these together, because they're closely related. I'm unimpressed for the same reason shadow gossamer costs XP. Read Taeas's argument again.And your degree of being impressed is as worthless in the argument as before. Wish has a special clause of paying XP based on the item created, while Shadow Gossamer skips it outright. Both have no special clause on whether they still require gold (which many people read as "no gold cost"). What's that blurb again about Wish being more impressive?

[Flickerdart]

Once you can cast Wish it becomes a lot cheaper, though you do need to burn some XP.
This is tricky - you need to cast wishes back to back, and you aren't allowed to spend enough XP to drop a level. So you need 25,000 XP available. Levels aren't actually big enough to accommodate that until well into Epic, so while IIRC there's a rule that you can refuse to level and use that XP on crafting and spells, you're still basically losing two levels for a +5. Better just buy the book.

[Kamai]

The problem with inherent stat bonuses is that you can't stack them — it's all or nothing and the previous investment is lost. This is why people usually save up for the +5 item.

Ok, that is my bad, I did forget that you had to cast the wishes back to back to do this.

[Brova]

And there's no conflict in Item's in-game use, except the one you made up.

Craft allows you to produce "an item". Can you craft magic items?


And your degree of being impressed is as worthless in the argument as before. Wish has a special clause of paying XP based on the item created, while Shadow Gossamer skips it outright. Both have no special clause on whether they still require gold (which many people read as "no gold cost"). What's that blurb again about Wish being more impressive?

SLA and supernatural wishes cost actual nothing. So you (depending on how hard your DM will try to screw you over) either bind an Efreet, create a simulacrum or ice assassin of one, or shapechange into a Zodar. Then you get a wish that can be for "whatever you want" at the cost of "absolutely nothing".

[ben-zayb]

Craft allows you to produce "an item". Can you craft magic items?Of course, but you'll be hard-pressed to show me the DC to craft such items.


SLA and supernatural wishes cost actual nothing. So you (depending on how hard your DM will try to screw you over) either bind an Efreet, create a simulacrum or ice assassin of one, or shapechange into a Zodar. Then you get a wish that can be for "whatever you want" at the cost of "absolutely nothing".And that's what you are impressed with? So it's not only using the might of a ninth-level spell to solve petty problems, but also with special caveat that such might must strictly be SLA or Su, just to stay ahead of Shadow Gossamer in the item-creation department? Cool.

[Brova]

Of course, but you'll be hard-pressed to show me the DC to craft such items.

So, when confronted with evidence against your point, your solution is to assume that you're still right? I think we're done here.

[Dondasch]

There's actually word from the Shadeling's designer.
Find it at the bottom of this page (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20345736).

[ben-zayb]

So, when confronted with evidence against your point, your solution is to assume that you're still right? I think we're done here.

You can't cite a RAW that backs up your claim, that actually contradicts my position, so you resort to accusing people? Sure...concession accepted.

EDIT: Nice, at least we know what the RAI was.

[nedz]

This is tricky - you need to cast wishes back to back, and you aren't allowed to spend enough XP to drop a level. So you need 25,000 XP available. Levels aren't actually big enough to accommodate that until well into Epic, so while IIRC there's a rule that you can refuse to level and use that XP on crafting and spells, you're still basically losing two levels for a +5. Better just buy the book.

Well the book costs 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP to craft — so who's going to be able to make one ?
Now you could probably use various crafting feats/class features/etc. to reduce that but not all characters have those resources and the numbers are still large.

One approach is to buy/craft Rings/Scrolls of Wish until you can combine those with some you have to cast maybe ? Almost any high level Wizard/Sorcerer can do this.

I'm not sure if you can mix the tomes and wishes by RAW ? So buy and read a +3 Tome followed immediately by two wishes — might require a DM's agreement.

[Brova]

You can't cite a RAW that backs up your claim, that actually contradicts my position, so you resort to accusing people? Sure...concession accepted.

Your entire claim is that the set of "items" must include in all cases both magic and non-magic items. When confronted with a case where "items" is used exclusively to refer to non-magic items (the craft rules), you insisted that "no, you totally could use those to make magic items". Your entire case is based on assuming that there are double secret rules out there for creating magic items with craft. Until you can point to those rules, I do not care.

[Taelas]

Wish can explicitly create mundane or magic items, doesn't it? That line of thinking

With wish, you still have to pay the cost. "When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP." (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm))

So if you think that somehow backs up your position... :smallamused:

[ben-zayb]

Your entire claim is that the set of "items" must include in all cases both magic and non-magic items. When confronted with a case where "items" is used exclusively to refer to non-magic items (the craft rules), you insisted that "no, you totally could use those to make magic items". Your entire case is based on assuming that there are double secret rules out there for creating magic items with craft. Until you can point to those rules, I do not care.Not really, but keep telling yourself that. On the contrary, the minimum requirement for my case to work is to point out the table of wondrous magic items that explicitly contains the Tome under the header, Item, which is what Shadow Gossamer explicitly can generate.

EDIT: Taelas: No, I'm actually pointing out that Wish and Shadow Gossamer is effectively the same in terms of having XP requirement, in item creation case. So barring SLA/Su tricks, Shadow Gossamer is the better method.

[Brova]

Not really, but keep telling yourself that. On the contrary, the minimum requirement for my case to work is to point out the table of wondrous magic items that explicitly contains the Tome under the header, Item, which is what Shadow Gossamer explicitly can generate.

No, because it might not be using "item" in that context. Item, in the core rules, can refer either to "the products of the craft skill" or "a wondrous item". And frankly, the second one is on pretty shaky ground given that it's used in the section for wondrous items, implying that item is being used as a shorthand. Given that shadow gossamer does not specific which version of item it uses, there is no way to tell which it means. Meaning a DM has to rule that it means magic items. Which in turn means that you only get wildly disproportionate power if your DM gives it to you. Which is unimpressive, because it is always true that if your DM gives you wildly disproportionate power, you will have wildly disproportionate power.

Now that being said, your argument still ends up with something worse than wish even if you win, because wish can create any magic item. Including custom ones.

[ben-zayb]

Given that shadow gossamer does not specific which version of item it uses, there is no way to tell which it means.And you are assuming that it must exclusively be defined as one of those two, when the term Item itself can refer to the entire single set containing both (which is the third case). And in a set containing both (should I again post links such as the Disarm/Grab rule?), Shadow Gossamer will function just fine.

[Brova]

And you are assuming that it must exclusively be defined as one of those two, when the term Item itself can refer to the entire single set containing both (which is the third case). And in a set containing both (should I again post links such as the Disarm/Grab rule?), Shadow Gossamer will function just fine.

I don't know what point you're making. If an ambiguous case exists where one interpretation is broken, it's not broken because it can't objectively be ruled that the broken case is correct.

[Dondasch]

I don't know what point you're making. If an ambiguous case exists where one interpretation is broken, it's not broken because it can't objectively be ruled that the broken case is correct.

Allow me to turn your arguement against you:

I don't know what point you're making. If an ambiguous case exists where one interpretation is broken, it's not broken because it can't objectively be ruled that the broken case is incorrect.

[ben-zayb]

I don't know what point you're making. If an ambiguous case exists where one interpretation is broken, it's not broken because it can't objectively be ruled that the broken case is correct.
I'm saying that by your logic, stuff like Locate Item, Object Reading, Instant Summons, Teleport Object, Grease, rules of Catching on Fire, rules of Grabbing items, and so on and so forth, all work under the power of DM Fiat, because you can't see Item as being an all-encompassing term on its own.

[Brova]

Allow me to turn your arguement against you:

I don't know what point you're making. If an ambiguous case exists where one interpretation is broken, it's not broken because it can't objectively be ruled that the broken case is incorrect.

No. Ambiguous cases are arbitrated by the DM, there's no strict RAW ruling (for example, almost anything about simulacrum). Any case which requires the DM to actively rule in favor of something broken isn't actually broken.

[elonin]

Maybe these concerns are unfounded. First, using any wish to get free wishes (IE planar binding to get a summon for wish granting SLA or wishing for more wishes) is CLEARLY within the guidelines of having the wish abuse clause go into effect. Also, 15th level the wizard doesn't have any 9th level slots. And even then you have to have access to 5 9th level slots for the inherent +5 bonus.

[Brova]

First, using any wish to get free wishes (IE planar binding to get a summon for wish granting SLA or wishing for more wishes) is CLEARLY within the guidelines of having the wish abuse clause go into effect.

No, it isn't. The clause is that the DM gets to to screw you over if you wish for "greater effects". One of the listed effects is any Wizard or Sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower. planar binding is a Wizard or Sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower (6th level to be precise). planar binding summons an outsider of 12 HD or less. Efreet are outsiders with 10 HD. 10 is less than 12. Efreet grant up to three wishes per day as a spell like ability. Therefore, it is 100% rules legal and obstruction free to wish for an Efreet who you can poke for More Wishes.

Seriously, is that comprehensive enough? I can break out the actual page number citations if you want.


Also, 15th level the wizard doesn't have any 9th level slots. And even then you have to have access to 5 9th level slots for the inherent +5 bonus.

Yes, but he has 6th level spell slots, which he can use to cast planar binding to summon an Efreet which can grant some wishes.

Actual Rules Quotes:

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Level: Sor/Wiz 6

This spell functions like lesser planar binding, except that you may call a single creature of 12 HD or less

Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)

Hit Dice: 10d8+20 (65 hp)

At will—detect magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray (1 ray only); 3/day—invisibility, wall of fire (DC 16); 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

[ericgrau]

Assuming no major cheese, and all the good magic items out there, and the cost of the tomes, maybe never pre-epic.

Even if I had infinite wishes the tomes might be pretty far down the list of wishes.

[Brova]

Assuming no major cheese, and all the good magic items out there, and the cost of the tomes, maybe never pre-epic.

Even if I had infinite wishes the tomes might be pretty far down the list of wishes.

Nah, +5 to all stats is good enough to be worth pumping the wishes into it. Particularly if you nerf wishing for items.

[ericgrau]

Nah, +5 to all stats is good enough to be worth pumping the wishes into it. Particularly if you nerf wishing for items.

Sure eventually I'd get everything, but the list of better items is pretty big.

Infinite wishes as a solution to getting affordable tomes is akin to "I want a good fighter" => "Play pun pun" or "How do I pass my trunaming checks" => "Item familiar".

[Brova]

Sure eventually I'd get everything, but the list of better items is pretty big.

Infinite wishes as a solution to getting affordable tomes is akin to "I want a good fighter" => "Play pun pun" or "How do I pass my trunaming checks" => "Item familiar".

Well, I'm presupposing some kind of nerf to wishing for items. Otherwise you never wish for tomes because you only ever wish for an item that gives you <basically everything, even the short version is long>. So assuming you're living in a world that runs with the 15,000 GP limit for wish (suggested in the Dungeonomicon (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547), you do want the +5 to all stats option, simply because you can't wish for the truly nuts items.