Bringing the top tiers down

[Extra Anchovies]

Posting some ideas I had for taking the T1 and T2 classes down to T3. Let me know what you think.

-Full casters (cleric/druid/sorcerer/wizard/oracle/witch/arcanist/shaman/psychic) use the spells/day of a bard, and the spells known of a bard if they are spontaneous casters. The arcanist's spells prepared is equal to the spells known of a bard, minus one at each level. Mystery, bloodline, and patron spells are granted at levels 2/5/8/11/14/17.

-Cleric gets a third domain's powers at level 5 as if they were a cleric 4 levels lower, a fourth domain's powers at level 9 as if they were a cleric 8 levels lower, a fifth domain's powers at level 13 as if they were a cleric 12 levels lower, and a sixth domain's powers at level 17 as if they were a cleric 16 levels lower. At level 20 all of their domain's powers use full cleric level for the purpose of determining their effects. They do not gain bonus spells per day from a domain, but their domain spells are added to their class spell list.

-Druid only receives the all-class changes, because they have enough meaningful noncasting class features.

-Wizard gets a second school's powers at level 5 as if they were a wizard 4 levels lower, a third school's powers at level 9 as if they were a wizard 8 levels lower, a fourth school's powers at level 13 as if they were a wizard 12 levels lower, and a fifth school's powers at level 17 as if they were a wizard 16 levels lower. At level 20 all of their school's powers use full wizard level for the purpose of determining their effects. They also do not get bonus spells per day from their school, but they do not have to select opposition schools either.

-Oracle gets revelations at levels 1/3/6/9/12/15/18 instead of at levels 1/3/7/11/15/19 and has a good Fortitude save.

-Witch only receives the all-class changes, because they have enough meaningful noncasting class features.

-Arcanist only receives the all-class changes, because they have enough meaningful noncasting class features.

-Shaman adds their spirit magic spells to their class spell list but does not gain bonus spell slots from which they are cast.

-Psychic adds one extra point to their Phrenic pool at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18. ETA: Not sure about this one. Thoughts? Should I remove it? Should I give the Arcanist the same thing with their arcane reservoir?

-Summoner gains either their Eidolon or their Summon Monster class feature, but not both. If they choose the Eidolon, they also gain teamwork feats which they share with their Eidolon at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

[marphod]

To what end?

You've made most High Tier 1s into Low Tier 1s. Low Tier 1s might become Tier 2s. High Tier 2s become low Tier 2s. You increase the relative power of the partial casters (Bard, Magus, etc.)

This means the gap between Tier 3 and the top edge of the curve has reduced by a small amount. The problem is that the Tier 1s and 2s are playing a different game than the Tier 3s, if all are used to optimal power level.

You've also removed some of the more common aspects of high-level game (planar travel), without adding a way to get them back,.

[Extra Anchovies]

To what end?

Making full-casting classes less powerful, that's what. The class features that I added are to ensure the classes that are normally somewhat lacking in features (wizard and cleric in particular) are still effective choices.


You've made most High Tier 1s into Low Tier 1s. Low Tier 1s might become Tier 2s. High Tier 2s become low Tier 2s. You increase the relative power of the partial casters (Bard, Magus, etc.)

I don't see how making all of the 9th-casters into 6th-casters leaves them in tier 1. Warpriest gets 6th-level prepared casting from the cleric list, but they are very much not T1.

Bard/Magus/etc do indeed become stronger relative to the former full casters. But so does everyone else who wasn't a former full caster. That's exactly the goal here.


This means the gap between Tier 3 and the top edge of the curve has reduced by a small amount. The problem is that the Tier 1s and 2s are playing a different game than the Tier 3s, if all are used to optimal power level.

Exactly. I'd rather be playing the game that tier 3s play. Hence my idea for bringing T1s and T2s down.


You've also removed some of the more common aspects of high-level game (planar travel), without adding a way to get them back.

Portals and portal keys work just fine, but thanks for pointing this out. I could make Plane Shift a 5th-level arcane and 4th-level divine spell, so it comes into play at the same levels as before (10 for divine and 13 for arcane instead of 9 for divine and 13 for arcane).

[Lalliman]

You've also removed some of the more common aspects of high-level game (planar travel), without adding a way to get them back,.
I don't think that planar travel is something that NEEDS to be in the hands of the players. The DM can always give them a way when they need one, and the fact that a caster of sufficient level could at any point say "screw you guys, i'm going to the astral plane" can do more harm than good. But that's a whole discussion in itself that we prolly shouldn't fill this thread with.

Concerning your ideas, Anchovies, they're quite good, though i'm sure a hundred threads with similar ideas have been done before. It's certainly preferable over some people's idea of cutting the high tier classes entirely. I mean to implement something of this sort if i ever run a high-level game. Problem is that it really hurts full casters at low level, which is when the game is at its most balanced. Considering the wizard and cleric don't get anything to make up for their lost spells before level 5, i predict they'll be underpowered during that time.

[Sayt]

Bringing the Tier Ones down to Tier 2/3 is something I've had a few ideas for some of them, but never implemented because, well, it's a bit of legwork and I've foudn that while i kinda enjoy brewing for PF, I don't actually enjoy running it that much:


Wizard: You choose two schools. You can learn spells from only those schools. This also requires gutting conjuration. Make it keep summons, move teleportation back to transmutation, and put the damage spells and plane shifting into evocation. Potentially combine this with a mandatory Sin Magic archetype. Do away with Wish and Contingency. Just black them out of the playbooks.
Cleric: Along a similar tangent: expand domains to grant 5-7ish spells per spell level, clerics can prepare and cast spells only from their domains and a much smaller generic list.
Druid: Personally, I'd make them choose between Wildshaping and an animal companion, rather than Domain or Companion. Potentially wind this in with the cleric changes (There's already a domain that grants an animal companion, maybe one that grants wildshaping?)


The overall aim of these modifications is an attempt to drastically reduce the capacity of these classes to do everything. I'm not sure how to apply this style of thought to the spontaneous casters.

Alternatively, The Magus is a pretty good T3 Evoker Wizard, the Summoner without it's ludicrously discounted spells is a pretty great conjurer Wizard/Sorc. Hunter is a pretty good T3 Animal companion Druid. Warpriest->Cleric, etc, but you seem to be looking to keep the class identities of the classes.

[RedOndjage]

I honestly think that Spheres of Power does a very good job of evening out the tiers pretty well. Have you looked at that yet?

[daryen]

Personally, I don't think you need to be so fancy. Just say that prepared full spell casters get the spell progression of the Magus and spontaneous full casters get the spell progression of the Bard. Then call it even. I don't see the need to provide compensation for the nerf, if the goal is to drop the tier.

[Dondasch]

-Oracle gets revelations at levels 1/3/6/9/12/15/18 instead of at levels 1/3/7/11/15/19 and has a good Fortitude save.

One problem with this one-- quite a few revelations only become available (or worth having) at level 7, flight being one of the big ones. This can delay access to certain abilities for two levels, which would be really inconvenient.