Paladins, Variant Paladins, and Gray Guards

[Gamereaper]

Where exactly is the line drawn for codes of conduct for each? Paladins are pretty simple, but what about a Paladin of Freedom vs. a Gray Guard. It seems like it would be a fine line.

[ComaVision]

Short answer: Discuss it with your DM

[illyahr]

Long answer: Discuss it with your DM to work that part out. No seriously. The Code of Conduct is entirely fluff and is completely between you and your DM. Other than the Paladin's "don't willingly perform an evil deed" there is nothing in the Codes that affect the game without you and your DM hashing it out.

[Gamereaper]

Short answer: Discuss it with your DM

As a DM, I don't know the answer. If a Paladin of Freedom can associate themselves with evil for undercover missions, what can a Gray Guard do beyond that? It's not like they can kill an innocent person to not blow their cover.

[OldTrees1]

Are you asking what the codes are (in play) for each Paladin variant? If so you are best off asking your DM. This is due to the official Paladin codes(RAW by WotC) being so terrible that many groups create their own rather than deal with the RAW codes.

Or are you asking what makes the different Paladin variants different from each other at the code level? In that case we can give you some vague answers like:
Grey Guards are different in that they have a greater tolerance for moral failure in their paladins. Since this is not code specific consider it a modifier on the code the Paladin had before entering. So the difference between a Paladin of Freedom and a Grey Guard of Freedom is that the Grey Guard is more tolerant of moral failure in the pursuit of promoting the virtue of Freedom.

[ComaVision]

As a DM, I don't know the answer. If a Paladin of Freedom can associate themselves with evil for undercover missions, what can a Gray Guard do beyond that? It's not like they can kill an innocent person to not blow their cover.

A Gray Guard is still LG, and has the ability to Smite Chaos. The Gray Guard Code is an amendment on the LG Paladin, where as the Paladin of Freedom has a reverence for personal liberty rather than adhering to rigid authority structures.

What that means in practice is entirely subjective. As a DM, I think it's better to have as little scrutiny on alignments as possible. Alignment debates aren't among the things that draw me to D&D.

[OldTrees1]

As a DM, I don't know the answer. If a Paladin of Freedom can associate themselves with evil for undercover missions, what can a Gray Guard do beyond that? It's not like they can kill an innocent person to not blow their cover.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Basically it is this:
Paladins of Freedom believe in doing the Right Thing.
Grey Guards of Freedom believe it is acceptable to occasionally do something wrong in the pursuit of the Right Thing.

So a Grey Guard not only can kill an innocent person if their cover is important enough, but might even consider it acceptable to do so.

Remember: Grey Guard is one of the "slightly darker" Paladin Prestige classes (although not as dark as the Shadowbane Inquisitor)

[Jowgen]

There will need to be a DM talk, as in-world morality is one of those really DM-dependent things; but if you want some place to start, I would argue the best place would be the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's content and morality rules have its problems, for which many rightfully dislike it; but it does talk at great lenght about the Inns and outs of differnt views and approaches to being "good". Based on those exalted-good alignment examples, you ought to reasonably easily figure out what probably should and shouldn't be in a given Paladin code.

[Gamereaper]

I have a soon to be player who likes the Paladin idea, but they are far from the whole goody two shoes type. I figured a Paladin of Freedom would be a good answer to that problem because it feels much less restricting, but I know that eventually that question will be asked because they will see that prestige class and say "Ooo more freedom", so I really can't see why they wouldn't pick that prestige class.

[Flickerdart]

Where exactly is the line drawn for codes of conduct for each? Paladins are pretty simple, but what about a Paladin of Freedom vs. a Gray Guard. It seems like it would be a fine line.

Well, let's take a look at their codes.



A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.


The "associates" section is not part of the paladin code, and thus carries no penalties for violating it.



Sacrament of Truth: This vow grants you a measure of freedom to act on your cause’s behalf without fear of retribution should your duties require you to break your code of conduct. Dishonorable acts still cause you to lose both gray guard and paladin class features until you atone...

Sacrament of True Faith: ...you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct. This trust does not grant you the freedom to act as violently or immorally as you wish, however. Release from your code of conduct depends on your acting as an exemplar of your order’s ideals. If you violate this trust by habitually acting in an immoral or corrupt manner, the leaders or deity of your faith might revoke their blessing and banish you from the ranks of the faithful.

Code: As a gray guard, you are held to the same code of conduct as a paladin. You must be of lawful good alignment and must never willingly commit an evil act. You must also pledge to respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, cheating, using poison, and the like), aid the needy, and punish those who harm the innocent. ... You can never break your code without good reason.


The "associates" section is still not part of the code, so you can ignore that too.



So the difference is that grey guards have exactly the same code as regular paladins, but are allowed to break the code while acting for your order. So unlike a paladin of freedom, a grey guard can commit evil acts without falling, so long as he has attained the Sacrament of True Faith. All kinds of paladins (freedom, honor, or grey guards) can break their code in other ways, so long as these violations are not gross, but grey guards can even incur gross violations as long as they do it infrequently.

[Yogibear41]

This is why you worship a good god, slap on Heretic of the Faith, and take Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard+Ordained Champion to bring the greater good to the masses. to smite your way to the greater good. :smallsmile:

[Jowgen]

Oh yeah, just remembered, Dragon 310 -the big juicy variant classes issue- actually had Paladins of All Alignments -including their codes- long before unearthed Arcana re-named 3 of them.

The chaotic good paladin was originally called the "Avenger" (nothing to do with the assassin variant). It has a few tweaked features compared to the new one (e.g. gets Slippery Mind and Break enchantment instead of Divine Health and Remove Disease; but actually has the regular aura of courage). It's code includes:

- loose all powers if a) willing evil and b) willingly allies with lawful government or associated agency
- must avenge the downtrodden whenever possible, but avoid killing unless no other way and target evil.
- must assist anyone who asks them (within reason)
- must be a longer, join no organized association/group/order
- may go to church but is encouraged to worship alone
- may associate with lawfuls for limited time, but may not willingly associate with evils

So yeah, this original variant was not just about going against those who curtail freedom; but actively rejecting law and authority for the purposes of being a loner vigilante. So basically, early season 1 Green Arrow with a bit less killing. I actually like this variant's take on the code. It gives it the same full-bodied paladin flavour; and adapting for grey-guard loosenings seems pretty simple.

Hope that helps :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

It also had an Aura of Chaos instead of an Aura of Good, Detect Law, and Smite Law.