Adapting 3.5 to the Play-by-post Environment

[Rofltrollcopter]

Hello, I'm thinking about running a 3.5 game on these forums. I have been in several play by post campaigns, and the vast majority of them never lasted longer then 2 encounters.

With that in mind, I would like to ask people to share their experiences with play-by-post games. What has made your games successful, and what has caused your games to die off? Are there any house rules or conventions that have made it easier to run a 3.5 game over the internet?

[Aegis013]

The most important thing is pacing. If the game keeps moving, if the progress can be seen, it will survive. If interest stalls, the pace slows down, interest tends to dwindle, and this results in the game dying off. Pacing is the big problem for Play-by-post because even the fastest game is running at turtle speed. But with dedicated players, new blood introduced as required, and a DM who pushes the game along as necessary (e.g. even some of what might normally be considered heavy-handed railroading can be super helpful to keeping the game alive).

The other big issue is that these games take a very long time to make really visible progression. Whoever is the DM needs to be ready to put in for a few years to get what a normal campaign might accomplish in a few months of weekly sessions. If the DM gets tired, loses interest, or real life issues come up for them, it's likely to implode. There's really not a whole lot that can be done about that, sadly, unless you are the DM. If you are the DM, you simply want to find things or design plots that make you excited to get your next post out, and you want to try to post as frequently as possible, without inducing burnout, for the sake of pacing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've been playing in a pbp game for a little over 2 years, and in all honestly I can say that the main reason the game hasn't died is because we have a really active OOC thread; simply chatting with your fellow party members/DM about well anything from the game to life serves a lot to keep the game going. We started playing at level 3 and just hit level 7 a couple of weeks ago, obviously a glacial pace in a normal game, but I think we have been doing really well.

Our DM also has a 24 hour rule, if you haven't posted an action or reaction in combat after 24 hours have passed, the DM will make the decisions for you; it does adds even more work for the DM but sometimes it is necessary. Finally having some sort of communication off-site is also pretty helpful, I have the DM of that Pbp added on facebook and the direct communication has helped a lot in-game, for example at one point of the game I was getting bored of my character and asked her if I could replace it with another, we talked about it and instead of that we managed to come up with a new story arc for my character that revitalized my interest in him. It was pretty fun leaving hints in my posts for the other players, and the reaction when we revealed what happened was awesome.

[Sagetim]

Hello, I'm thinking about running a 3.5 game on these forums. I have been in several play by post campaigns, and the vast majority of them never lasted longer then 2 encounters.

With that in mind, I would like to ask people to share their experiences with play-by-post games. What has made your games successful, and what has caused your games to die off? Are there any house rules or conventions that have made it easier to run a 3.5 game over the internet?

Well, the last time I played in a play by post pnp game, I was playing a Forgotten Realms setting GURPS game on Rpol. Certain features of that site made it very easy to accomplish things like rolling dice for posts and what have you, and I'm not sure if this forum has dice rolling facilities or character sheet hosting or what have you. These are very nice tools to have for a play by post game.


The important factor, it seemed to me, was that the players need to be willing and able to post regularly. It might not be every day, but it needs to be regular. If the party splits, you need to have a means of handling that established before the game starts. Will time progress normally for the party members who are waiting while others are going off in another direction? Are you going to have threads split off to cover other party actions? How is time going to be tracked, if nothing else. If you have a sandbox game running, then it's entirely likely that when a party split happens, some players may go zooming off into the future by passing time doing things like crafting or partying or making a living or what have you, while the players trudging through cave after cave are likely going to temporally lag as they go through each combat, each encounter, each bit of rewards.

Similarly it would help to establish arcs for the game to progress within before things start. Like 'after each adventure there will be some downtime where we sum up what the players do, so you have time to craft/politic/what have you without having to go through it in excruciating detail'.

I think the main challenge you will face is fickle attention spans from players, so don't be afraid to over recruit. If all the players stick around, it just means you have a particularly large party of players, but if you lose half your people from a party of 10, you have a slightly oversized adventuring party.

[Rofltrollcopter]

Thank you all for the well thought out responses.

In order to make sure the pace is consistent, would it be fair to automatically kick players if they don't respond after a certain period in time? E.g. if they don't respond in a week, they become an NPC, and if they are still AWOL after another week, kick them from the game?

The only method for rolling combat that I have seen work well is roll20, is there any other tool that is time efficient for the GM?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The PBP forums have their own roll dice mechanic xdy+z (note they only work in the PBP forums) and it works pretty well for our game.

I also suggest you give some leeway to your players, RL can be a bitch sometimes and people will find it difficult to post from time to time, though I would expect at least a post that says "Hey guys I'm on vacation/sick/away for the next X days", that is just common sense/courtesy.

[AmberVael]

In theory, leeway is nice. Because things DO come up. Because people DO have legitimate reasons for not posting, even if they might have a hard time putting words to it.

But from years of experience, I can tell you that regardless of someone's reasoning you just can't let that slow down the game- because generally when a game slows down, that pace is lost for good. People don't readjust their posting rates back up to speed, but they definitely do adjust downward. So be forgiving and merciful to the players, but be merciless with the pace of the game. NPC them. Skip them. Push them to the side. Whatever it takes to keep the game moving, do it, because in the end, losing a few posts or even losing a player is far better than losing the game.

[Umbranar]

There is a play by post where the DM puts up DC`s and the players all roll for about everything themselves. Instead of monster rolling for attack, the character needs to roll a "defence" roll against an attack. Instead of the monsters rolling for saves, the players need to roll a spell/ability roll and beat a DC.

This makes everything more transparent but keeps up the pace.

Think it was a Way of the Righteous campaign.

[bean illus]

A phone app would be the best thing for play by post. If you had an app that played E8 or so you would have something for a million hits at $5. But it would have to work.

I hear they have some things that.... don't work. Any suggestions?

[J-H]

Fast posting expectations help.

Most games that I have seen collapse (from the inside) have done so in the talky bits. A good third of them die before the first combat encounter because it's really hard to carry on a detailed back-and-forth conversation asynchronously. A combat focus with limited RP intervals helps prevent situations where everyone else is waiting for someone else to post.

[bean illus]

A phone app would be the best thing for play by post. /snip/ Any suggestions?
I am posting from my phone to gitp now. I wonder how much access i have to character sheets etc.

Anyone wanna experiment with a phone only pbp?

[Kol Korran]

There is a play by post where the DM puts up DC`s and the players all roll for about everything themselves. Instead of monster rolling for attack, the character needs to roll a "defence" roll against an attack. Instead of the monsters rolling for saves, the players need to roll a spell/ability roll and beat a DC.

This makes everything more transparent but keeps up the pace.

Think it was a Way of the Righteous campaign.
That would be my roleplay log, (In my sig, the rule is explained in the first post) but it's not a PbP. It's a table top play, a live play. I just record the sessions.

I no longer play PbP, but i have in the past for a few years, and had a few games that lasted quite some time, and some that had just evaporated. I'll add my insights of the matter:
1) D&D played through PbP is a WHOLLY DIFFERENT GAME than played by table top. This is quite important. Many people just expect it is the same game, just played slower. The truth of the matter, that it is not. If you expect to run it like a regular table top game, the game will fail. It's like traveling by train/ plane vs. walking in terms of speed- The entire experience, the focus is different. I found out that if you want a successful PbP D&D game, you need to adjust the way you think of it, and the expectations from the game. Some of the main issues are:

- Progress: D&D is a game of escalating power, character's mechanical and statistical development, and increasing challenges. But for most D&D PbP games, the average time to "level up" make take about 10-14 months of game time. This frustrates a lot of players and DMs, who then quit. When approaching a PbP game, you need to realize the following: You won't level up much. It will be rare. You need to be content playing the character AS IS, and enjoying it. Development occurs mostly in terms of fluff, story and so on, less in mechanics (i'll touch on that later). Also, don't make far reaching long term plans, as this will frustrate you even more. In PbP, you really, really need to enjoy playing what happens NOW, develop the current scene, instead of thinking in terms of future developments. Otherwise- frustration will come your way. If you're a DM, then my advice is this- Don't plan overly long games. Think of games that last 2-4 level tops. That will take you several years, and is quite hard to keep up. Whenever I saw adds like "An epic game! Ranging from levels 1-20!" And so on I knew the game will fail. The DM just have no clue of what to expect! A game that last from level 1-20 will take most of your life time in PbP. Adjust accordingly.

- Encounters and adventures: One of the best game I played was using the PF module "Slay the dragon". At the start the party is in a small town, and there are a lot of possibilities for small adventures, lasting 1-4 encounters. This was PERFECT. PbP adventures to my opinion, need to be fairly short (Sure, they can tie up to a bigger theme/ adventure/ goal/ campaign, but the immediate goal should be short). This is due to two reasons: With the Pace of PbPs, it's hard to keep an interest on a long adventure, that drags on. The mini adventures I mentioned can often take up 2-3 months of play time. More than that and people start to lose interest, and lose pace. Secondly, while in a typical D&D game you add quite a few encounters for a fun combat, or addec challenge, or so on "filler encounters", the PbP medium can't really stand it. While in a typical D&D game the "plt/game changing" encoutners range about 30-50% or so (In most games at least), in a PbP they need to be about 90-95% percent, or players lose interest. Make things significant, all the time. How to do that? Fewer challenges, but of greater danger and impact. Also, while I'm on the subject- most D&D modules and adventure path are BAD for PbP! They fit a table top game, but really, really suck for the most part for PbPs, for the reasons explained. Some modules, who are moreof a "Stand alone" modules, can be decent though.

- Action Vs. Roleplay: Mechanics don't work well in PbPs. ESPECIALLY in D&D, who has tons of modifiers, rules and so on. people might not agree on rules interpretation and so. Unfortunately, D&D focuses a lot on combat. But PbP is not well suited for it. Many times, at the first or second combat people start drifting off. I'll touch on combats later, but just wanted to say that in PbP, the focus is not on that. You see, while PbP has difficulties in many parts, it does shine spectacularly in one aspect: Description. In table top, both the DM and the player improvise fast their roleplay, and lets face it- we are not exactly improvisational actors, and so thing come out... so-so, at most times quite mediocre. But in PbP? The player/DM has TIME to think, form, edit, and polish their post, so it comes out as something more a kin to what you see in a book, or in TV shows/ movies. Descriptions, conversations and roleplay can be much more satisfying and fulfilling in PbP, and so I think the focus should be on that. Less combat and rolling, more acting cool, saying cool stuff and so on.

As I've said at the start- Table top D&D and PbP D&D are really not the same animal. Treat them as wholly different games, using the same chasis, and you'll do better, and your expectations may be more in line of what the medium can offer.

2) Choose the players, not the characters: Many PbP adds start with laying out the premise of the game (Which is cool) but then ask for characters, basing adding someone to the game on the quality of the character. I have at times seen DMs who take a different approach, and seek to learn about the PLAYERS first. (usually with nearly no discussion about the characters they want to play). This makes for a much better screening process, and I'll try to explain why- This is a social game, and as such it is played amongst people. Most table top gaming have people from a similar location, similar life experience, similar age group and many times they are friends to some degree. All of this help make a more common base of expectations, maturity, play style and so on. It makes a foundation for a working group. This is later strengthened by interactions between players in the gaming table, not just the characters. The golden rule is you play with real people, not their characters.

PbP doesn't have that. It tries to group people from all over the globe, with vastly different ages, play styles, life experience, language, manners, expectations and more. And they don't know each other... Many groups also focus on the game of characters, with no real attempt to link players, so you still feel like you're playing with a group of total strangers, who's actions, mannerisms and more you may find difficult to understand, to interact with. This is why I say that at the screening process- focus on players, not characters. Ask about age, life experience, personality, favorite play style and focus, and so on, and try and make the group the most compatible. I'd suggest opening an OOC chat room (As has been suggested in previous posts) and see which people interact well, which less, and start with the group of people who seem to get along well, and have an interest in playing with each other. You may discuss characters and such, but this need not be the focus. Once you have a group, THEN assemble the characters. (make it a joint effort. This can make the group form better, and give them their first group effort to work at).

3) Keep it organized, keep it simple: It's hard to keep the players focused in tabletop at times. It's harder still to do so in PbP. Some of the better GMs I've known made sub threads to organize stuff: A thread to keep track of loot, a thread to keep track of recent battle maps, a thread to keep track of names of people, places and such, with a short description. It need not be overly flashy, complicated and such, but it needs to be clear, and efficient. This helps keep the focus a lot, especially if a player has been missing due to RL for a few days or a week. It helps them from falling off the game. I advise to delegate the keeping of such threads to player who show interest in that. It keeps them more involved.

4) Combat: First of all, have combat matter! Not just "Ok, we need to get by these monsters to move onwards"... Don't do that. PbP combat should be engaging, and it should matter more than mere surviving the encounter. Try to put some plot/ theme/ story significance to most combats. Combats tend to drag on, be confusing, and are many times game stoppers. So keep them simple, sweet, furious and challenging. In D&D PbP I opt for fewer encounters, but of a higher CR or such. (CR +2 to +3 at most times).

Also, use maps! There are plenty of tools (Roll20 and Ditzie are quite decent). It helps keep people in the game, and it gives the more tactically oriented players something to focus on.

And keep things moving! I highly suggest the "players roll all of the dice" method mentioned earlier (Check my sig for "Wrath of the Righteous", it's explained in the first post), and other methods, such a single in it for players and monsters, players including "If X happens then I'll do Y" clauses and so on.

4) Plan for short campaigns, or accept replacements: Though some players and DMs say they will commit to such and such a posting rate, and may well do so for a long while, none of us can predict the future, and real life springs up things on you, even if you're invested and committed to the game. With games assumed to last for several years, even great players happen to fall off, due to real life demands. So...either plan for short adventures (A level or two progression at most, sometimes not even that), or accept that some players will come, some will leave, and you may need to find new ones. This is the reality of PbPs- Accept it.

My opinion though? I think PbP is IDEAL for short adventures that have a strong, not regular theme. I once played an adventure based on the Seven Samurai movie, where a group of a few heroes must protect a small poor village from overwhelming bandit forces, and it was one of the best games I ever played. Short adventures have an unexpected benefit to them- Since the players expect it to be fairly short, they are more willing to be wilder, bolder, and more risk taking than on long adventures. This makes for much more satisfying heroics and roleplay in my opinion.

5) Should we play D&D? This game is the most common roleplay game, and has the widest support base, as well as player and DM base. However, in my opinion, mostly due to the reason above, it is not that well suited for PbP. Sure, you can adjust it, but in someways, it becomes a different game, and it is still... um... quite clanky. The focus on so many rules and mechanics makes D&D cumbersome for PbP. But... there are other systems. I found the FATE core system, which focuses mostly on "Narritve focused" instead of "gaming focused" (That D&D is an example of), which makes it FABULOUS for PbP, and suits the medium so much more. I highly recommend to learn the system (Which has it's own quite different mind set, but which is quite awesome I think) the core rules are free, and the possibiliti es endless.

I hope this helps, good luck with your game! Just don't try to roleplay it as a table top game. It isn't. It's a whole new different beast. :smallwink:

[Rofltrollcopter]

I appreciate your thoughts Kol Korran (ironically enough, the game I was thinking of running was going to be based in Eberron)

I kind of wish there was a set of rules specifically for adapting 3.5 to the play by post environment. Ther more I think about it, the more things seem to fall apart. For instance, the one thing holding back Tier 1 characters from dominating the game is that they have limited daily resources to work with. In a normal game, having multiple encounters would force them to choose when they use their spells, but in a game where only one encounter happens a day they have a distinct advantage.

[Kol Korran]

I appreciate your thoughts Kol Korran (ironically enough, the game I was thinking of running was going to be based in Eberron)

I kind of wish there was a set of rules specifically for adapting 3.5 to the play by post environment. Ther more I think about it, the more things seem to fall apart. For instance, the one thing holding back Tier 1 characters from dominating the game is that they have limited daily resources to work with. In a normal game, having multiple encounters would force them to choose when they use their spells, but in a game where only one encounter happens a day they have a distinct advantage.

There is something to it, but consider the following:
1. I think there is a slight misconception here. You seem to gather I suggested 1 serious encounter per day. While you can do that, the encounter then usually needs to be quite serious, VERY taxing, and will probably use up the caster's resources quite quickly. The caster may be fare more challenged really- Instead of fighting just 2 ogres in a regular dungeon room, they are also fighting a harpy archer, some sort of an enemy caster from behind, and someone invisible just infiltrated their ranks? Is it close to me? More complex situations give rise to numerous threats, and while in normal encounters casters can usually solve this with 1-2 spells, here they might really need to choose what spell to choose, due to action economy. Also, they become threatened much more often, which is usually spared of them due to tanks blocking and so on.

More than that- the caster should never know how many encounters, or what their difficulty is going to be. Should they save spells for later? When does this adventure end? Sure, the adventures in PbP are ideally short, a few encounters at best, but you don't know EXACTLY how many encounters that is.

I suggest to not enable easy retreating and resting when ever they want (This is general advice, I use it in table top as well)- There are consequences to resting. Most of my adventures are on some sort of a time constraint. You decided to rest again? Oh damn- The hostage was sacrificed, the baron was assassinated, the necromancer finished his research and then left to somewhere else, see him again with a few mroe templates and an undead army! And so on...

2. This depends on level. In the lower levels, say... up to 5-7the level or so, the prepared list casters are still fairly limited in choosing the right spells for the day. If you play with sufficient twists and changes, you can still feel limited. I played a caster of 3-4thlevel, and seen others play casters of this range, and it was still quite challenging. True, we're not super optimizers, but I still think that built right this can prove a challenge.

3. PbP shines in challenges that are more open ended, and more complex, that usually play. This is due to a strong point of PbPs that I forgot to mention- they are great for sandboxes, less structured encounters and adventures, and anything really that in tabletop game requires a great deal of improvisation: In tabletop, you need to improvise fast (Mostly the GM), and so the end result is so-so/ meh... but in PbP, you've got time to think, consult sources, come up with cool ideas and then post some thing far more interesting, enriching and exciting.

But what does it got to do with tier 1 and so on? Well, you can often devise more complex situations/ encounters, with more leverages, more approaches,more pieces in the game (Just try to avoid combat encounters if possible), This both allows other team members to contribute more, but also means that the encounters are varied, so a "regular set of spells" won't solve all problems.

4. Limit tiers/ level of play: If you really need to, you can limit the game by one of the following methods:
- Ask everyone to play a similar tier of classes. (Such as everyone tier 1-2, everyone tier 3-4 and so on).
- Ask nicely of people who play the higher tiers to not break the game apart, you know, play nicely? This often comes only with serious optimizers. You'd be surprised how many people DO NOT know how to make the full extent of their casters, spells and so on, and can be quite on par with the power level of say... the barbarian.

I hope this helps. :smallwink: