"Come to papa!": Help using the BoVD artifact to attract angry fiends for fun/profit

[Jowgen]

So, the BoVD artifact from the DMG.

It is designed to be great for evil casters and terrible for all non-evils to have. If one's DM so happens to grant one this artifact, and one happens to be good, the purpose is usually that one is meant to destroy it or use it for plot-device reasons. The only real use it is to a good character is to carry it about as a Disjunction-discourager. I am thinking something different.


Other characters of good alignment take 5d6 points of damage from just handling the tome. If such a character looks inside, there is an 80% chance that an evil outsider attacks the character that night.

I want to optimize the living hell *hehe* out of that clause.

I want to design a protocol/procedure based on a good-aligned character with a real beef for fiends, who looks inside the BoVD repeatedly in order to draw out fiend after fiend in order to take them down. Kind of a make evil fight on your turf type thing.

Now, obviously this clause doesn't give much information. How do the fiends know you looked inside? Can it be any kind of fiend that comes, or are we likely dealing with a specific category? What sort of challenge rating can you expect? Are they coming for the book, to kill the owner, or why at all? Text doesn't answer that (Afro didn't offer any particular insights either), so anything the DM thinks fitting goes.

So basically, what I need in the first instance is a set-up by which a reasonably wide range of good aligned character builds (class, ecl & optimization level variable) can safely open the book, sit and wait for ideally any given Fiend to come, and then be able to effectively neutralize the fiend (ideally permanently) for exp, profit and the cosmic good.

The Problems I am here to get help with:

1. First and foremost, "Fiend" is an incredibly broad category, filled with lots of creatures that have lots of different special abilities and tactics that they may use to come at the book-owner. I do not know them all. I need some of you fiend experts to basically draw up as many the different "attack patterns" the fiends might use as you can think of, in order to then...

2. ... put together cost-effective counters. I do not mean designing the "perfect fiend slayer" character, but designing the most conductive environment and approach towards slaying a fiend you know is coming. The perfect set up would obviously be one that a level 1 commoner could use to kill a challange rating 20 plus fiend coming for the book; but I am obviously not that optimistic. Some level of combat ability and character features will probably be required or at least too good to have to consider doing this otherwise. I am thinking along the lines of a big hallowed tower that is just riddled with stuff that reduces the threat level of any entering fiend somehow; but I'm not married to that image. Hell, maybe it's better to stay on the move all night, I don't know.

3. Once a few lower-level mook-fiends come for the book and don't come back; higher level ones might get get suspicious. A DM might well see fit to deviate from the artifact text and interpret "attack" in a wider, more liberal sense; in which the fiends don't come one at a time anymore or employ really creative means to try and take out the book holder. I ideally need ways to predict and address that problem as well.

In case you're wondering why I am doing this, it is both in case I ever have a good character who gets the book, and so I can use this as a quest idea in case I end up DMing a High-ish level evil party (e.g. a"Hey, evil adventurers, we fiends really struggling to get that thing from that guy; go do it for us" type thing.) So yeah, any input on this little pet-project would be much appreciated. :smallsmile:

[Malroth]

First of all Forbiddance Is a Must have for whatever location you're guarding, otherwise any 2 fiends could simply greater teleport in and one grab the book and vanish while the other is getting destroyed by your defenses, You can also leave a gap in the forbiddance with a permanent antimagic field sitting directly above a prismatic wall, Any attempt to teleport/greater teleport directly to the books location will place them in the nearest available spot which will surpress any magical flight or levitation and drop them into The prismatic wall which will pretty much instantly destroy any Fiend of Cr below 13.

[Randomguy]

A few spells that might be useful here:

Since the fiend is probably going to be teleporting in, Anticipate Teleportation, as well as Greater Anticipate Teleportation, will give you a few rounds of warning before they show up.

The cleric spell Sacred Item make it so that an object deals 1d4 per caster level (max 10d4) to the next evil outsider / undead that it touches. This lasts until the spell is discharged, so you could cast it a bunch of time on arrows or pebbles or somethin to pelt the fiend with massive damage on the round it turns up.

You can also set up an Energy Transformation Field around the area where you make camp, so that when the evil outsider tries to use one of its spell like abilities (or teleport out), then it just gives more charges to the Transformation Field. I'm not sure what spell you should link up to the Transformation Field, though. A summoning spell might be good, but some anti-fiend spell might be better.

You should also consider setting up a Guards and Wards around the area, too. Not sure how useful it would be, though, but if you set your trap in a stairwell the webs might help. On the other hand, you might end up with spider demons or something and then they'd hurt you more than them.

[Inevitability]

Realize that 'evil outsider' need not mean 'by-the-book-monster'. You might as well face an imp with rogue levels, or a arcanaloth with advanced wizard casting. Perhaps a half-dragon fiend attacks you. Maybe even a 20th-level evil incarnate.

Since it is impossible to protect against each of these individually, I recommend spamming Sacred Item on thousands and thousands of water drops, then putting those in a gigantic bassin and dropping the book (in a fancy waterproof cover, of course) in it. Every fiend who gets close enough to grab the book will also takes several thousand d4's of damage.

[Brookshw]

I feel like Hallow and deserting traps of Holy Smite and some of those sun spells that are especially good for undead and evil outsider should play a part. Also I seem to recall BoED has a summon twisting spell that pulls in Celestials rather than whatever was actually summoned. Might be worth a look though I could be misrecalling how that spell functioned.

[noob]

"Since it is impossible to protect against each of these individually, I recommend spamming Sacred Item on thousands and thousands of water drops, then putting those in a gigantic bassin and dropping the book (in a fancy waterproof cover, of course) in it. Every fiend who gets close enough to grab the book will also takes several thousand d4's of damage. "
It is an artifact so it can not be destroyed(except with a spell or the particular ritual done for this) so you do not even need a waterproof cover.
I think you can also do a redemption center near this book and make the fiends good(Essentially write tons of scrolls of sanctify the wicked and make your summons/rocks turned into creatures read them on your opponents and use diplomacy on many fiends for trying to convert them to good(An emissary of bachariel convert fiends super fast if you polymorph them into humanoids) also polymorphing a demon into an exterior who does not have the evil subtype allows the boed rules of conversion to apply and so to convert him in two weeks)

[ben-zayb]

Is there a clause in the item that prohibits evil gods, elder evils, and the BBEGs of the lower planes, from coming out? They Most of them are Evil Outsiders, after all.

[Bronk]

Even if you set all this up on one of the evil aligned planes, most of the evil outsiders that show up will be off of their home plane, and will eventually reform back home, ready for revenge.

Maybe add in some kind of memory erasing/altering magic... maybe a boon trap set to go off just before death?

[Brookshw]

Oh, did we mention high cl holy word traps yet?

[noob]

"Is there a clause in the item that prohibits evil gods, elder evils, and the BBEGs of the lower planes, from coming out? They Most of them are Evil Outsiders, after all. "
There is none but it is even better to convert powerful evils.

[Vaz]

If you're neutralizing them with ease then they aren't a challenge, so no exp. As for profit, eh. Fair enough, but if you want wealth, surely getting wands of salt is easier? As for greater good, ghey are literally innumerable.

[noob]

Yes and so you can churn innumerable champions of good by converting them.

[Jowgen]

Alrighty then.

Forbiddance absolutely seems like a spell to invest in. It's permanent, prevents planar incursion, and unless there is considerable spell resistance going on, should deal some damage to every entering fiend.

Hallow doesn't do much (i.e. protection from evil for stuff inside) but it is releatively cheap and permanent, so I suppose one might as well add it on. What I am liking is the possibility of tying a good rider spell-effect to it that then lasts a whole year. Any suggestions on that?

Sacred Item en masse seems to be a popular idea, but I'm not really seeing it as a lasting solution. Even with a posse of clerics dedicated to casting it every day for free, the fiends would probably deplete the stores of d4 damage faster than they'd be refilled. The main thing though is that the fiends need only realize what is going on once, and then all future fiends will be coming with a Life Ward spell active, letting them ignore the stuff.

Holy Word traps are similarly countered by a silence spell, but I guess on the other hand, that'll prevent high level fiends from using Blasphemy. Hmmm... :smallannoyed:

The "Redemption center" idea might work, but does rely on being able to remove the evil subtype for at least 2 weeks straight, if not permanently. Polymorph seems too short term for that. Anyone know of another method?

As for a lord of the 9 hells or whatever coming up personally, or even in aspect form, I severely doubt would be worth their time, not to mention there are generally some serious repercussions associated with a planar power directly acting on the material. Still yeah, countermeasures should be able to counter a BoVD stated Demogorgon I think.

As for the fiends never really dying... I think there is conflicting stuff there. I recall someone saying that Devils don't die but come back as weaker devils much later, while Demons who die of plane do in fact die for good (although it doesn't matter because endless supply). Are Fiend's immune to the memory wiping effects of the river Styx?

[noob]

Simply use PAO and turn the demon into an exterior without the evil subtype of the same size and less intelligent(it is ridiculous how common it is for fiends to have high int) and you have 5+2+2 duration so definitive else if the fiend is dumb you still have 7 duration and so it lasts already one week per cast(three casts and you converted him)

[ben-zayb]

For those who have checked it out, can Asmodeus even refuse being forcefully transported by this artifact?


Statistically speaking, though, there is almost a 100% chance of getting a random demon, than any other kind of evil outsider.

[Jowgen]

Simply use PAO

Okay, that's at the very least cheaper and faster than the Sanctify the Wicked alternative. Anybody else?


For those who have checked it out, can Asmodeus even refuse being forcefully transported by this artifact?

Statistically speaking, though, there is almost a 100% chance of getting a random demon, than any other kind of evil outsider.

I never even considered the possibility that the Fiend's aren't coming for the Book-reader out of their own free will. Always assumed that for one reason or another they just wanted to kill the good guy who looked at their evil book funny. It really doesn't say either way, and I checked with Afro, there is absolutely nothing that explains this fiend-attracting property of the book.

[Vaz]

Yes and so you can churn innumerable champions of good by converting them.

They have infinite already, you have a finite time span. Again, what benefit?

[noob]

well why would I not be immortal?
It is rather easy to have immortality.
Also I can convince those fiends I converted to keep doing the job(allowing to convert exponentially more fiends) by creating other redeeming centers and by using scrying to watch the book in the principal center(the event triggers with " looks inside" so scrying works).
And also if you think doing a finite thing is negligible and uninteresting then why would you ever play dnd normally(it means with adventures which brings you to help a finite number of people).
As for personal benefit think how awesome it is to have a society of 500000000 good aligned fiends plenty of them can cast spells and so it will probably mean that you will be able to buy nearly any magic item and also you are going to be seen as an exalted good saint by this society.
Also if your GM does not gives you XP for doing good at a so much great scale something is weird.
Setting up this conversion system is a major event it will probably be as rewarding as an encounter of your FP+4.

[Vaz]

You are 20 years old, and have just converted your first dude to good (though the morally questionable effects of Sanctify the Wicked). The Infinite Hordes have ∞.

You are Immortal. You have had a finite amount of time to create them; if we say you've made 1/day you're plaything for good, that's (∞-(20*365.25)). The Infinite Hordes have ∞. Which one is higher?

During that time as well, you've been creating agents for good at a rate which cannot keep up with that of Infinite Hordes at a cost to your resources (provided you don't go through infinity loops yourself at which point why are you even bothering with this malarkey? Just create Ice Assassins of Solars or whatever noise you want).

This is like creating one of those Useless machines. Kind of cool, but pointless in the meta of the game world.

http://endlesspicdump.com/original/the%20useless%20machine%20fight.gif

[noob]

You did not read my second way to convert demons who cost no resource other than PAO one time per fiend and then the use of the Redeemery who can affect as many creatures as you want in parallel
Then as I said you can make those fiend create other redeemeries and so have an exponential growth of the converted ones.
"During that time as well, you've been creating agents for good at a rate which cannot keep up with that of Infinite Hordes at a cost to your resources (provided you don't go through infinity loops yourself at which point why are you even bothering with this malarkey? Just create Ice Assassins of Solars or whatever noise you want)"
ice assassins of solar will need an infinite time to have an infinite effect also in fact it is also a spell banned 99.9999999999% of the time also instant infinite loops are a gross cheat the GM will insta ban.
Also do not forget it is an exponential rate with my method you are completely wrong saying it is linear.
And also think of a trick doing an infinite thing which is useful for good.(if you can not give one then you can not compare that to the rest and say it is not as good if you are unable to give good examples)
tl dr
read what method I used in my previous posts instead of only reading 1/3256286797862458679 % of what I say then say it is useless with false assumptions.

[Jowgen]

A discussion centered on the benefits of a Redeemery -the guide to which I wrote- is derailing a thread that I started. Oh the hemp-fisted irony :smalltongue:

Anyways, thinking about it now, I do think that a Redeemery might be wroth incorporating for two reasons. First, Fiends that are redeemed are neutralized indefinitely, as opposed to only temporarily until their return. No need to worry about them coming back with a vengeance. Second, a part of the redeemed fiends could easily be conscripted to aid in the defense of the book and it's reader, which is bound to come in handy. In time, it might even make the whole thing self-perpetuating; with the redeemed fiends being able to protect the book and attract/redeem other fiends all on their own, leaving the original PC free to do other stuff.

Anyway, still need a reliable method to remove Evil descriptors on a large scale. PAO castings don't come easily enough to be a solution.

Also, at this point the "come to papa" set up includes the following:

- 1 Forbiddance spell
- 1 Hallow spell with Silence fixed to it / year, set up to prevent verbal and sonic for fiends
- 1 Eversmoking bottle (anyone know where the Fog-version of this item is from?) around the book to block line of sight and stuff
- 1 Spellblade keyed to a wish spell to prevent death via that