Is it possible to refluff how you got your strength? Details in post.

[gooddragon1]

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[Studoku]

If you roll or point-buy an 18 in strength, you can fluff it however you like if your DM approves. Having strength as a blessing from your god seems completely reasonable in D&D. Wish it worked that way in real life though- church is cheaper and easier than the gym.

[AvatarVecna]

What, you'd prefer a holy temple to the Iron Temple? :smalltongue:

[Milo v3]

I allow reflavouring strength in the games I DM at least.

[Segev]

I understand at least one person's divinely-gifted strength only required he adhere to one commandment: thou shalt not cut thy hair.

[Psyren]

church is cheaper and easier than the gym.

I don't know, church in D&D seems like one heck of a chore. Sure you get magic out of it, but you have to supplicate yourself at the same time every day, observe rites and holy days, kowtow to the upper echelons of your church and be their errand boy, and very often risk life and limb in the service of battling your deity's particular enemies - a mortal pawn in an eternal game of chess between immortal outsiders.

[gooddragon1]

I don't know, church in D&D seems like one heck of a chore. Sure you get magic out of it, but you have to supplicate yourself at the same time every day, observe rites and holy days, kowtow to the upper echelons of your church and be their errand boy, and very often risk life and limb in the service of battling your deity's particular enemies - a mortal pawn in an eternal game of chess between immortal outsiders.

This assumes though that you worship a deity and not the ideals. My character will have no deity, and will be using the domains to advance himself. Strength and magic are two things he values because they give him what he wants (thus they are his ideals). Still gonna make him neutral good though (favorite alignment).

[AvatarVecna]

This assumes though that you worship a deity and not the ideals. My character will have no deity, and will be using the domains to advance himself. Strength and magic are two things he values because they give him what he wants (thus they are his ideals). Still gonna make him neutral good though (favorite alignment).

Gasp! Only cheating optimizers worship ideals! An Orcus-shaped pox on you!

[Psyren]

An ideal is even worse though. At least with a deity you know exactly what you need to do to get the power from it; it might be a PITA or dangerous, but you know what you need to do. For an ideal though - even in settings where this is an option, clearly whatever it is can't be easy, or every commoner would be a cleric, and Cleric 1 beats Commoner 1 any day of the week just with the orisons, never mind the domain powers and turn 1/channel 1.

[Segev]

Personally, I strongly dislike the rules for "worshipping an ideal." That said, it may be better to think of worshipping an ideal not as nebulously thinking "hey, this ideal can give me power, so I think it's cool," but as almost a form of idolatry in its own right. That is, the ideal truly is like unto a god in the cleric's mind.

To use an evil, and hopefully non-controversial example (because my go-to one would be...politically fraught and probably violate forum rules), think of the nazis and their almost religious belief in the ideal of the Aryan Perfection. Perhaps Dr. Mengele was a cleric of this ideal, devout in his pursuit of achieving it. Skilled in the Healing skill (though he perverted it to evil ends), he might have had the Domains of Death and Healing as he studied one in pursuit of the other. But it takes that kind of monomaniacal devotion and focus. The ideal is your god, not merely a philosophy you think is cool or right or wise.

[nedz]

I don't allow ideals because Deities give more direction to characters and also because of the following problem:

What ideal = Strength + Magic ?

It's just a fluff question, of course, but you need a good answer IMHO.

[gooddragon1]

I don't allow ideals because Deities give more direction to characters and also because of the following problem:

What ideal = Strength + Magic ?

It's just a fluff question, of course, but you need a good answer IMHO.

This sort of approach is one of the two things worrying me about this potential build. If it's occurring here it could occur there. Crossing fingers it isn't the case, but that's why I'm asking in advance to see how things are. Cuz honestly, I'd rather not have to justify why I picked the domains (I never was one for backstory [Guess I sort of want it to be a guy who learned clerical magic to unnaturally gain strength and is using those two domains to help him along with it]).

Ain't you never heard of heroes of might and magic :X

[Segev]

I don't allow ideals because Deities give more direction to characters and also because of the following problem:

What ideal = Strength + Magic ?

It's just a fluff question, of course, but you need a good answer IMHO.

I could see an evil one who is "Power Above All," and an any-alignment one that was "Adventure!" in the specific context of D&D-style adventuring. Adventuring is, itself, his ideal, his god, his everything. It makes him stronger and is the main reason he learns magic. He would play up the omni-aplicability of clerical magic, using spells to help him mimic rogue-type abilities as well.

[Red Fel]

This assumes though that you worship a deity and not the ideals. My character will have no deity, and will be using the domains to advance himself. Strength and magic are two things he values because they give him what he wants (thus they are his ideals). Still gonna make him neutral good though (favorite alignment).

I want to say yes, and I want to tell you that how you fluff your stats is your call, since it's your PC.

I want to say that. There's a but.

First, your Cleric is a Cleric of an ideal, rather than a deity. I don't have a problem with that. But it would be easier if he were a Cleric of a deity - you could easily fluff it as his deity blessing him with boundless, unnatural strength.

He doesn't have that avenue. He draws power from his faith in a concept - specifically, the concepts of Magic and Strength. And here's what bothers me. He idealizes Strength, reveres it, worships it. And don't tell me he doesn't; a Cleric of an ideal still has to pray to receive his spells. He still has to be unwavering in his faith. He may be less dogmatic, but he still has to revere the concept.

And therein lies the problem for me. If a character reveres strength, in my mind, he wants to achieve it. Growing stronger is a form of worship. And you don't rush worship when it's important to you - you savor it, you dwell upon it, you learn from it. The process of growing stronger, and not just the result, is part of his reverence for his ideal. Your character worships strength in order to bypass the act of worshiping strength. That's where I feel the disconnect.

You're describing a character who started worshiping the ideals of Strength and Magic - I could see that as worshiping the concept of "Power," and I can get behind it - and who suddenly found himself monstrously strong. I'm sorry, but it's too jarring for me to accept that fluff.

Now, if he undertook a rigorous personal training regimen as part of his discovery of his faith, I could see that divine spark augmenting his exercise. See, for example, the character of Saitama in One Punch Man - every day for three years he did 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, and 100 squats, and ran 10 kilometers. That's it. And somehow that transformed him into a man who could destroy absolutely anything in a single punch, including gods. (Also it caused him to lose his hair. REASONS!) If you went that route, I could totally see the divine spark of faith augmenting the training to produce the stats you describe. But not spontaneously. That's just self-defeating.

[Psyren]

I don't allow ideals because Deities give more direction to characters and also because of the following problem:

What ideal = Strength + Magic ?

It's just a fluff question, of course, but you need a good answer IMHO.

Idealizing Power, both physical and mental, and believing that to truly be powerful you need both? This fits well with Clerics, who can indeed attain both physical and magical power, and also druids.

[nedz]

Idealizing Power, both physical and mental, and believing that to truly be powerful you need both? This fits well with Clerics, who can indeed attain both physical and magical power, and also druids.

Something along the lines of
Pen and Sword, in one Accord
or
A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body
?
I'm sure there are more potted chestnuts like these.

[marphod]

Wish it worked that way in real life though- church is cheaper and easier than the gym.

You're obviously not a Scientologist...

*ahem*

Depends on your faith and your gym. Plenty of local gyms are around 20-25$/month. Meanwhile, my spouse's church is doing a major renovation.

[GreyBlack]

An ideal is even worse though. At least with a deity you know exactly what you need to do to get the power from it; it might be a PITA or dangerous, but you know what you need to do. For an ideal though - even in settings where this is an option, clearly whatever it is can't be easy, or every commoner would be a cleric, and Cleric 1 beats Commoner 1 any day of the week just with the orisons, never mind the domain powers and turn 1/channel 1.

Chicken infested flaw. Summon sufficient chickens to cause a planetary implosion as a free action.

./micdrop

[Segev]

Idealizing Power, both physical and mental, and believing that to truly be powerful you need both? This fits well with Clerics, who can indeed attain both physical and magical power, and also druids.

That wasn't Red Fel's concern. Red Fel's concern is more about how that worship and idealization is pursued. If it's a god, praying to him for power and strength is a fine shortcut; your dedication to your god grants you divine boons. But if it's an IDEAL with no god behind it, if the ideal itself is your god, you worship by pursuing it. Your divine spark might empower your efforts, making them more awesome than they otherwise would be, but you still are WORKING for it.

Because if anybody could say, "Yeah, I think power and strength and magic are awesome," and then suddenly be mighty and mystical, we would have a LOT more clerics of those ideals.

[Trasilor]

I want to say yes, and I want to tell you that how you fluff your stats is your call, since it's your PC.

<snipped>


Perhaps the strength he worships is not the outward kind...

Many times in our society we use phrases which talk about how strong someone is without actually meaning their physical stature. Strength can relate to all sorts of non-physical strength. What about the strength to do what is right, no matter the consequences?

Perhaps his conviction to what is right and just is so strong, it has manifested itself as a form of divine strength. His believes that when confronted with challenges, it is imperative to always stand strong.

Magic is that belief that everything is connected. All things, across the entire cosmos are connected - at some fundamental level - with each other. It is how people are able to manipulate matter and space to allow the to create something out of nothing. Divine, arcane it doesn't matter, it is all magic in the end. He knows this to his core, his foundation is built upon it.

This cleric does not pray. He meditates. He looks inward to seek that which he knows to be true: we are all connected and we must strive to what is right. He seeks internal guidance to allow him access to his internal strength which ultimately manifests itself as external strength and allows him to do what he know to be right. He looks deep into his subconsciousness to find that truth that magic is the lifeblood on which all existence sustains upon. And looks to tap in on that truth.

[Psyren]

That wasn't Red Fel's concern. Red Fel's concern is more about how that worship and idealization is pursued. If it's a god, praying to him for power and strength is a fine shortcut; your dedication to your god grants you divine boons. But if it's an IDEAL with no god behind it, if the ideal itself is your god, you worship by pursuing it. Your divine spark might empower your efforts, making them more awesome than they otherwise would be, but you still are WORKING for it.

Because if anybody could say, "Yeah, I think power and strength and magic are awesome," and then suddenly be mighty and mystical, we would have a LOT more clerics of those ideals.

I wasn't responding to Red Fel, and in fact I actually agree with his concerns - worshiping an ideal is indeed stronger than simply thinking a given concept is awesome. (I do disagree with his premise that it's somehow impossible or contradictory to do so however - in D&D terms, it would simply mean coming up with a set of mores that are at least as restrictive or involved as the ones used to supplicate the actual deities, since clearly those work.)

[Segev]

I wasn't responding to Red Fel, and in fact I actually agree with his concerns - worshiping an ideal is indeed stronger than simply thinking a given concept is awesome. (I do disagree with his premise that it's somehow impossible or contradictory to do so however - in D&D terms, it would simply mean coming up with a set of mores that are at least as restrictive or involved as the ones used to supplicate the actual deities, since clearly those work.)I think the point is more that, if you worship an ideal, you pretty much have to involve working towards that ideal as part of your worship. The strictures you must observe are dictated by the nature of working towards it, rather than by devotion to a dogma handed down by a god.

Thus, in worshipping the very concept of power itself, its pursuit must be a part of your devotion. You don't get divine blessings of strength for merely praying really hard to be powerful if you aren't directing those prayers to something which can grant them "in exchange" for your devoted service. Instead, you idolize the very concept and work hard towards it, and your divine connection to it bolsters your efforts to be more rewarding than they otherwise would. Miraculously so. But you still achieved it through hard work in the right direction.

[Red Fel]

I think the point is more that, if you worship an ideal, you pretty much have to involve working towards that ideal as part of your worship. The strictures you must observe are dictated by the nature of working towards it, rather than by devotion to a dogma handed down by a god.

Thus, in worshipping the very concept of power itself, its pursuit must be a part of your devotion. You don't get divine blessings of strength for merely praying really hard to be powerful if you aren't directing those prayers to something which can grant them "in exchange" for your devoted service. Instead, you idolize the very concept and work hard towards it, and your divine connection to it bolsters your efforts to be more rewarding than they otherwise would. Miraculously so. But you still achieved it through hard work in the right direction.

This.

If my Cleric worships a specific deity, his faith is built around that deity's dogma. Holidays, taboos, mandates, all coming from a singular source.

If, on the other hand, my Cleric worships an ideal - and I'm not saying it's impossible or contradictory to do so, because I don't think it is - then that worship, much like the object of reverence, must necessarily become more esoteric. You can't offer prayers to a concept. ("Oh, Strength, you are so very, very big.") You don't have holidays or mandated observances. ("Today celebrates the day that Strength overcame the Tax Man with his Mighty Fists!") Even taboos are a bit complicated. ("Strength teaches us not to be puny sissies!")

So worship has to be a bit less concrete. Worshiping Death, for example, might mean killing things, laying corpses to rest, or studying decomposition. Worshiping Love could mean being a matchmaker, helping return a soldier from the battlefront to the husband she left behind, or even giving a child his first puppy. Worshiping Strength, then, should be about being and becoming stronger. Now, what "stronger" means is up for the imagination, although it's worth noting that the domain is basically about physical strength and Bigby's Brotherly Fistbump spells. But having the domain shouldn't just mean that you're suddenly strong, anymore than having the Death domain means you're suddenly really good with corpses. You must show reverence towards the concept, true devotion beyond that of the normal character, before your faith can spark into something divine.

I'm pretty sure every Barbarian worships the ideal of Strength. I'm pretty sure every Wizard reveres the ideal of Magic. That's not enough to grant domain access, and it's certainly not enough to explain where their powers come from. They gained their power through training and practice. For a Cleric of Strength to show his devotion above and beyond that of any other, he must endeavor to make himself strong. He must endeavor to embody that which he espouses.

Your Cleric, to put it simply, must be Strong in order to become strong.

[Zubrowka74]

I don't allow ideals because Deities give more direction to characters and also because of the following problem:

What ideal = Strength + Magic ?

It's just a fluff question, of course, but you need a good answer IMHO.

The ideal of Gish! Make your character a Githyanki!

[Psyren]

This.

If my Cleric worships a specific deity, his faith is built around that deity's dogma. Holidays, taboos, mandates, all coming from a singular source.

If, on the other hand, my Cleric worships an ideal - and I'm not saying it's impossible or contradictory to do so, because I don't think it is - then that worship, much like the object of reverence, must necessarily become more esoteric. You can't offer prayers to a concept. ("Oh, Strength, you are so very, very big.") You don't have holidays or mandated observances. ("Today celebrates the day that Strength overcame the Tax Man with his Mighty Fists!") Even taboos are a bit complicated. ("Strength teaches us not to be puny sissies!")

So worship has to be a bit less concrete. Worshiping Death, for example, might mean killing things, laying corpses to rest, or studying decomposition. Worshiping Love could mean being a matchmaker, helping return a soldier from the battlefront to the husband she left behind, or even giving a child his first puppy. Worshiping Strength, then, should be about being and becoming stronger. Now, what "stronger" means is up for the imagination, although it's worth noting that the domain is basically about physical strength and Bigby's Brotherly Fistbump spells. But having the domain shouldn't just mean that you're suddenly strong, anymore than having the Death domain means you're suddenly really good with corpses. You must show reverence towards the concept, true devotion beyond that of the normal character, before your faith can spark into something divine.

I'm pretty sure every Barbarian worships the ideal of Strength. I'm pretty sure every Wizard reveres the ideal of Magic. That's not enough to grant domain access, and it's certainly not enough to explain where their powers come from. They gained their power through training and practice. For a Cleric of Strength to show his devotion above and beyond that of any other, he must endeavor to make himself strong. He must endeavor to embody that which he espouses.

Your Cleric, to put it simply, must be Strong in order to become strong.

I agree with all this - so I guess I'm wondering why you seem to find it distasteful when you've laid out pretty well how it can be achieved in-universe? It would take a long time, sure, but gaining levels in general should take a long time unless there is a truly catalytic/traumatic trigger.

[Red Fel]

I agree with all this - so I guess I'm wondering why you seem to find it distasteful when you've laid out pretty well how it can be achieved in-universe? It would take a long time, sure, but gaining levels in general should take a long time unless there is a truly catalytic/traumatic trigger.

What I find distasteful is what the OP described:


Could I say that my cleric became a cleric of the strength domain to unnaturally (yet permanently in a way that can't be dispelled) improve his strength to be 18 without gaining it in the standard method?

In other words, as a result of being a Cleric of Strength, he suddenly became strong. In my mind, it should be the inverse - he made himself stronger in order to show his devotion to Strength.

Having him embrace Strength as an ideal in order to suddenly become strong seems self-defeating. Strength isn't about suddenly being mighty, it's about becoming mighty, and continuously striving to be moreso.

That's what bothered me.

[nedz]

In other words, as a result of being a Cleric of Strength, he suddenly became strong. In my mind, it should be the inverse - he made himself stronger in order to show his devotion to Strength.

In RL if you perform physical exercise then you become stronger, now that doesn't happen via RAW; but you could abstract the worship of strength during adolescence as a rationale for why the character starts with high strength. As the character developed grew up their interest changes from the physical aspects of Strength to the spiritual side.

[Segev]

To reiterate something else, the idea of revering and worshipping an existing god of Strength to become strong can work just fine, however. Offer up your devotion and life and livelihood to the dedicated service of Hercules, and he may well bless you with divine strength as his sacred priest. Kneel at the altar of Gannon and pray for power to smite your foes, and your dark lord may well imbue you with physical and mystical might to spread his dark will.

[Psyren]

What I find distasteful is what the OP described:



In other words, as a result of being a Cleric of Strength, he suddenly became strong. In my mind, it should be the inverse - he made himself stronger in order to show his devotion to Strength.

Having him embrace Strength as an ideal in order to suddenly become strong seems self-defeating. Strength isn't about suddenly being mighty, it's about becoming mighty, and continuously striving to be moreso.

That's what bothered me.

I get what you're saying, but this begs an obvious question - at what point are you considered strong enough to have devoted yourself to Strength?

Striving for something is the goal here, not necessarily achieving it. You aren't penalized for effectiveness. And if only effort is rewarded (even significant effort) rather than results, in game terms that just means writing your workout regimen into your backstory and starting particularly weak to end up with any starting Str you want. Say, an invalid who is idealizing Strength to get back on his feet probably won't have more than 10-14.

[Red Fel]

I get what you're saying, but this begs an obvious question - at what point are you considered strong enough to have devoted yourself to Strength?

Striving for something is the goal here, not necessarily achieving it. You aren't penalized for effectiveness. And if only effort is rewarded (even significant effort) rather than results, in game terms that just means writing your workout regimen into your backstory and starting particularly weak to end up with any starting Str you want. Say, an invalid who is idealizing Strength to get back on his feet probably won't have more than 10-14.

Again, I think we entirely agree. The problem isn't that one is unworthy of Strength until one is strong. At least, that's not my position. The problem is that the OP explicitly seeks to bypass the traditional methods of becoming strong, which in my mind is the entire point. I'm not saying you have to have a Str of 18 before you can be a Cleric of Strength, nor do you have to start at a piddling Str of 8. I'm saying you need to undertake the process - the normal, grueling process that requires dedication - of becoming stronger. Starting down that road, and staying with it, is sufficient, regardless of where your ability scores fall.

The issue I have is that the OP describes someone who swears himself to Strength, and then is suddenly unnaturally strong. If he worked an exercise regimen into his backstory to justify the Str score, I'd be all for it. I think that's a perfect way to illustrate dedication to an ideal. But that's the opposite of what he describes. And that's my issue.

I don't think we're disagreeing. It just feels like we're talking past one another.

[Brookshw]

Say, an invalid who is idealizing Strength to get back on his feet probably won't have more than 10-14. Now that you mention it that sounds like some pretty good backstory and fluff for a cleric of strength, someone who had to develop it the hard way, knows it's value far more intimately than someone who took a basic level of it for granted. Maybe not as advanced as they could be but understands it and what impact it has in life and intends to maintain the path. Kinda like how if someone's had a traumatic experience they'll go to great lengths to avoid repeating it.

[gooddragon1]

The issue I have is that the OP describes someone who swears himself to Strength, and then is suddenly unnaturally strong. If he worked an exercise regimen into his backstory to justify the Str score, I'd be all for it. I think that's a perfect way to illustrate dedication to an ideal. But that's the opposite of what he describes.

That is exactly the description of what I went for, and fortunately for me what my DM agreed to.

It turns out I was just being paranoid. The conversation was pretty much:

DM: Will it affect your character mechanically?
Me: No.
DM: Sounds good.

I guess I just have to cherry pick DM's that aren't so stringent on the fluff enforcement.

[Psyren]

Again, I think we entirely agree. The problem isn't that one is unworthy of Strength until one is strong. At least, that's not my position. The problem is that the OP explicitly seeks to bypass the traditional methods of becoming strong, which in my mind is the entire point. I'm not saying you have to have a Str of 18 before you can be a Cleric of Strength, nor do you have to start at a piddling Str of 8. I'm saying you need to undertake the process - the normal, grueling process that requires dedication - of becoming stronger. Starting down that road, and staying with it, is sufficient, regardless of where your ability scores fall.

The issue I have is that the OP describes someone who swears himself to Strength, and then is suddenly unnaturally strong. If he worked an exercise regimen into his backstory to justify the Str score, I'd be all for it. I think that's a perfect way to illustrate dedication to an ideal. But that's the opposite of what he describes. And that's my issue.

I don't think we're disagreeing. It just feels like we're talking past one another.

I think we're on the same page. It's a description/concept/fluff issue rather than a mechanical one.

[rockdeworld]

It turns out I was just being paranoid. The conversation was pretty much:

DM: Will it affect your character mechanically?
Me: No.
DM: Sounds good.
Congrats. This is why the answer to your topic question is "always."