What advantages does Blade Adept Arcanist have over Magus?

[Elric VIII]

I am thinking about a Fighter 1/Arcanist 6/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcanist 3 compared to a Magus 20.

Taking magical knack as my trait nets me a 20 CL, +15 BAB, and just barely 9th level spells. This is better than a Magus (once the build starts coming together).

However, the Blade Adept is forced to use a black blade (which can be based off CL instead of class level thanks to an exploit), which I gather is not a great Magus archetype.

Additionally, the Blade Adept can only replicate the spellstrike and a standard action version of the Magus' weapon boosting ability through his exploits. He misses out on spell combat, which is a very powerful ability.

He also has a fairly limited list of Magus arcana that he can gain. I am not fully familiar with the list, but hasted assault and close range seem decently powerful. He may be missing some of the better ones, if so I would appreciate some guidance here.


Overall, it seems like you can build a Blade Adept that functions similarly to a Magus, but with more focus on spellcasting. So, my question here is: Given that you have full access to the Wiz/Sorc spell list, is there anything that makes it worthwhile to be able to attack only a single time in conjunction with casting the spell? What unique options does the Arcanist bring to the Magus' abilities?

[stack]

As you noted, spell combat is great. What levels are you playing at? While the arcanist is clearly more powerful late game, the magus works right out of the gate.

[Kurald Galain]

Taking magical knack as my trait nets me a 20 CL, +15 BAB, and just barely 9th level spells. This is better than a Magus (once the build starts coming together).
Depends. What level are you going to be playing at?

At levels 1-13, the Magus is clearly ahead. At levels 16+, well, there's no beating top-level wizard spells, of course, but the plain Magus will have better saves (12/6/12 instead of 10/6/10) and more hit points due to favored class. And you'd be missing out on a free +5 enchantment from the arcane pool ability, and on casting in armor.



However, the Blade Adept is forced to use a black blade (which can be based off CL instead of class level thanks to an exploit), which I gather is not a great Magus archetype.
It's one of the best, actually. Even aside of giving you an expensive weapon for free, it gets a swath of extra bonuses. A bladebound Magus has a free +8 weapon at level 13, or a free +10 weapon at level 17, and you'd be hard-pressed to match that with WBL.



He also has a fairly limited list of Magus arcana that he can gain. I am not fully familiar with the list, but hasted assault and close range seem decently powerful. He may be missing some of the better ones, if so I would appreciate some guidance here.
Check the guide in my sig, because yes, you're missing out on some great arcana. And yes, spell combat is the primary reason to play a Magus.


What unique options does the Arcanist bring to the Magus' abilities?
Primarily the option to take wizard schools (e.g. divination) and sorcerer bloodlines (e.g. draconic).

[Spore]

What advantages does Blade Adept Arcanist have over Magus?

To keep the answer simple:

1) A VASTLY superior spell selection. Have you ever SEEN the Magus spells? Utility isn't their forte.

2) Higher spell levels all around. After 10th level when you get 5th level spell from the whole wizard list while the magus is barely getting 4th.

3) A more flexible playstyle: Most magi I have played with tend to fall into a pattern of "I am bored when can I blow the next best thing up?" and if it comes up that their utility spells are needed they are very quickly out of spell slots.

4) More spell slots. the Blade Adept doesn't loose spells/day nor does he loose castings/day.

The only problem would be levels 1-7 where you lack HP and defenses. But that can (and has to be) patched up with defensive spells. Mage Armor, Shield, False Life, Protection from Evil and Protection from Arrows will help you immensely. Watch out for DMs that play tactically as smart NPCs tend to focus the casters. Now, not every NPC should be played to be a tactical mastermind but if your BBEG is a general or similar the chances are higher than if your BBEG is a crime lord or a mad wizard.

[Kurald Galain]

1) A VASTLY superior spell selection. Have you ever SEEN the Magus spells? Utility isn't their forte.
Look again :smallsmile: The Magus actually has plenty of utility spells, and can easily access the wizard list for more. For example, they have native access to illusions, shapeshifting, cloud and wall spells, mount, shatter, and dispel magic.



2) Higher spell levels all around. After 10th level when you get 5th level spell from the whole wizard list while the magus is barely getting 4th.
That would be true on a straight wizard, but not on an arcanist that loses two spellcasting levels to fighter and EK1. At level 10, both of them are "barely" getting 4th. The EK doesn't really get ahead until level 16.


3) A more flexible playstyle: Most magi I have played with tend to fall into a pattern of "I am bored when can I blow the next best thing up?"
Then you've never seen a Magus played well. Yes, some players get bored unless they're killing stuff. No, that says nothing about the class they're using.

[stack]

While the wizard list has almost boundless utility, in my play experience (up to level 7), the magus generally doesn't want greatly for options. This presumes having spell recall, archetypes that trade it away will have to change spell loadouts accordingly, of course.

[Elric VIII]

Depends. What level are you going to be playing at?

At levels 1-13, the Magus is clearly ahead. At levels 16+, well, there's no beating top-level wizard spells, of course, but the plain Magus will have better saves (12/6/12 instead of 10/6/10) and more hit points due to favored class. And you'd be missing out on a free +5 enchantment from the arcane pool ability, and on casting in armor.


It's one of the best, actually. Even aside of giving you an expensive weapon for free, it gets a swath of extra bonuses. A bladebound Magus has a free +8 weapon at level 13, or a free +10 weapon at level 17, and you'd be hard-pressed to match that with WBL.


Check the guide in my sig, because yes, you're missing out on some great arcana. And yes, spell combat is the primary reason to play a Magus.


Primarily the option to take wizard schools (e.g. divination) and sorcerer bloodlines (e.g. draconic).


I guess my cursory looks at the Magus guides was not sufficient. I saw it mentioned a few times that the black blade ends up keeping you behind compared to a weapon that can be enhanced normally. Although I guess this can be overcome by spending your extra cash on other boosting items.

I will be perusing your guide after I finish these responses. thank you.


To keep the answer simple:

1) A VASTLY superior spell selection. Have you ever SEEN the Magus spells? Utility isn't their forte.

2) Higher spell levels all around. After 10th level when you get 5th level spell from the whole wizard list while the magus is barely getting 4th.

3) A more flexible playstyle: Most magi I have played with tend to fall into a pattern of "I am bored when can I blow the next best thing up?" and if it comes up that their utility spells are needed they are very quickly out of spell slots.

4) More spell slots. the Blade Adept doesn't loose spells/day nor does he loose castings/day.

The only problem would be levels 1-7 where you lack HP and defenses. But that can (and has to be) patched up with defensive spells. Mage Armor, Shield, False Life, Protection from Evil and Protection from Arrows will help you immensely. Watch out for DMs that play tactically as smart NPCs tend to focus the casters. Now, not every NPC should be played to be a tactical mastermind but if your BBEG is a general or similar the chances are higher than if your BBEG is a crime lord or a mad wizard.

Now, what I was thinking about was potentially using a whip to throw out the spells while remaining in a somewhat defensible position. To look on the bright side of not having spell combat, I don't have to worry about unfavorable interpretations of the slashing grace errata.

What seems like it has the most potential here is the ability to turn wiz/sorc ray spells into touch spells via close combat. Although I suppose if I am only throwing out 1 spell a turn I'm either a glorified blaster or a debuffer with a few hp damage tacked on.

[Spore]

Look again :smallsmile: The Magus actually has plenty of utility spells, and can easily access the wizard list for more. For example, they have native access to illusions, shapeshifting, cloud and wall spells, mount, shatter, and dispel magic.

While this is correct, their DCs are often worse than straight full casters due to the need for Str/Dex/Con. They have blasts, basic utility (invis, fly, wall, form of x spells) but they really lack the bigger picture of wizards.

Wizards have a huge spell list with support from all kinds of extra books and publications. Having the same spells on the Magus list forces the Magus to wait until 19th level. Because it's a niché class made for easier access gishes.


That would be true on a straight wizard, but not on an arcanist that loses two spellcasting levels to fighter and EK1. At level 10, both of them are "barely" getting 4th. The EK doesn't really get ahead until level 16.

You're correct there. I miscalculated heavily.


Then you've never seen a Magus played well. Yes, some players get bored unless they're killing stuff. No, that says nothing about the class they're using.

Well, I have only seen Magus from one player under one DM. As the Magus showed that he can end encounters is a single round due to the insane burst spellcombat offers the DM didn't start to make encounters in which damage isn't important but throw bigger monsters at us forcing the Magus to prepare his slots with more burst (and use his Hexcrafter hexes for utility). For if he hadn't had the burst we would've died on some parts of the adventure (a smiting ubercharger paladin and a magus can only be stopped by large and resilient monsters apparently).

[Mithril Leaf]

On the plus side, it's many times easier for the Magus to get unlimited spells than for the Arcanist to do the same. Wyroot Kukris combined with Boots of Earth for unlimited Arcana Pool points.

[Kurald Galain]

I guess my cursory looks at the Magus guides was not sufficient. I saw it mentioned a few times that the black blade ends up keeping you behind compared to a weapon that can be enhanced normally.
Again, what level will you be playing at?

Assuming you spend one-third of your total wealth on your weapon, then the black blade is actually ahead until level 15. It's only at the very top levels that it falls behind in plusses only (because even then, it has useful features that a normal weapon won't have). A fully leveled black blade is effectively a +8 or +9 weapon.


What seems like it has the most potential here is the ability to turn wiz/sorc ray spells into touch spells via close combat.
Most rays are already touch spells. The point of Close Range is the crit range on your weapon. Try doing an Enervation that crits 30% of the time :)



Wizards have a huge spell list with support from all kinds of extra books and publications. Having the same spells on the Magus list forces the Magus to wait until 19th level.
The wizard has the best spell list in the game, nobody disputes that. However, that doesn't make the Magus weak in terms of utility. On a scale of one/commoner to ten/wizard, I'd give him a solid 8, well ahead of most other classes.

Also, starting from level 3 you can use the Spell Blending arcana to add a few of your favorite wizard spells to the Magus list.


Well, I have only seen Magus from one player under one DM.
That's an unfortunate story, but I think the DM could have handled that better. That said, yes, a Magus built for spike damage will do lots of it. However, that's far from the only possible build.

[Elric VIII]

Again, what level will you be playing at?

Assuming you spend one-third of your total wealth on your weapon, then the black blade is actually ahead until level 15. It's only at the very top levels that it falls behind in plusses only (because even then, it has useful features that a normal weapon won't have). A fully leveled black blade is effectively a +8 or +9 weapon.


Most rays are already touch spells. The point of Close Range is the crit range on your weapon. Try doing an Enervation that crits 30% of the time :)


The wizard has the best spell list in the game, nobody disputes that. However, that doesn't make the Magus weak in terms of utility. On a scale of one/commoner to ten/wizard, I'd give him a solid 8, well ahead of most other classes.

Also, starting from level 3 you can use the Spell Blending arcana to add a few of your favorite wizard spells to the Magus list.


That's an unfortunate story, but I think the DM could have handled that better. That said, yes, a Magus built for spike damage will do lots of it. However, that's far from the only possible build.

This is not for a specific game, I was having a conversation about the Arcanist and in further researching it I noticed the potential build here. I saw the spell blending arcana, so it seems like that pretty much removes the one advantage that the Blade Adept had in the early levels. I mistyped when I said making rays into touch spells, what I meant was melee touch and applicable via weapon. Evervation hits the nail on the head for good synergy.

All in all, it seems like the Magus does Magus better and the Blade Adept route adds very little outside of high levels. Thank you for the advice and discussion.

[Kurald Galain]

Thank you for the advice and discussion.

You're welcome :smallredface:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

In general, an eldritch knight is better at casting, but is more of a switch hitter, as opposed to the magus, who is always gishy all the time. Blade Adept gets to take a few nice things from the Magus's playbook that help it mix a little better, Spellstrike and Black Blade in particular. Something I should note, though, as a player who has had a 13th level bladebound magus, is that you are never found wanting for magic weaponry. You always have a decently enchanted weapon, perhaps a plus behind a specialist martial, but that's what the arcane pool is for. You go from having a pretty good blade to an epic-level blade in one swift action. Hell, I was running out of enchantments to use! Protip: Improved Critical looks nice at 9th level, but the enchantment really is nicer later on when you have to consider putting speed on your blade just to use up the enhancements.

[grarrrg]

On the plus side, it's many times easier for the Magus to get unlimited spells than for the Arcanist to do the same. Wyroot Kukris combined with Boots of Earth for unlimited Arcana Pool points.

Wyroot got errata-nerfed (emphasis added):
"wyroot weapon can gain at most 1 life point per day and hold
up to 1 life point at a time. More powerful wyroot weapons
can gain up to 3 life points per day and hold up to 3 life points
at a time. Any unspent life points dissipate at dusk. A creature
can convert life points from only one wyroot weapon per day.
Wyroot can be used to construct any melee weapon made
entirely of wood or with a wooden haft."

You only get to draw from _1_ Wyroot weapon any given day, and any given Wyroot weapon is worth at most _3_ points per day.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Also can't make kukris out of wyroot. Unless you have a Druid with Ironwood on hand.

[Kurald Galain]

Also can't make kukris out of wyroot. Unless you have a Druid with Ironwood on hand.

No, but you can make terbutje out of wyroot...