Help me with my Halfling Barbarian build

[acemcjack]

Hello all,

I am starting a new 4th level character, and I would like to hear your thoughts on the build.
It's not particularly optimized, and that's fine with me, but I would appreciate some help on making my character a little more versatile. Bear in mind that for the sake of role play I would like to keep the character as sensible as possible with regard to choices of feats, class etc.

The idea is of a female (but kind of Tom boyish) Halfling with major anger issues. She has left her village to go and become a sailor (as background), but her temperament is extremely hot, so she's a Path of the Berserker Barbarian. She dual wields handaxes, and I want to take the Dual Wielder feat to use battleaxes for increased damage.

Now, I know this is sub optimal, but I've been able to persuade my DM to fix the Frenzy feature a bit, so as not to make it too bad. I'm also trying to persuade him to allow the use of the strength ability score with Intimidating Presence instead of charisma, but that remains to be seen.

Here are her stats:
Level 4 Stout Halfling Barbarian.
Stats (after racial bonuses):
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 12
CHA 11
note: I can't play too much with the stats because it's a fixed array: 16,14,11,11,11,9 + 3 points to distribute as preferred.

As I mentioned, I chose Path of the Berserker, and I'm taking the Dual Wielder feat at level 4.

So my only problem is her lack of versatility. What would you recommend taking as feats at level 8, 12, 16 and 19? Should I multiclass? How about 2 levels of rogue?

I kind of doubt we'll reach level 20, as most campaigns end at level 14-15.

What are your thoughts?

[WickerNipple]

Dual Wielding + Frenzy are contradictory. They both require using your Bonus Action to get a free attack, thus you can't do both in the same turn.

Drop one, or better - BOTH.

[Shining Wrath]

If you can get your DM to let you recover a level of fatigue in a short rest because of your high CON + being a stoutheart halfling, that will mitigate Frenzy.

Dual wield is not optimal, as noted, but if that's your character, then that's your character. A feat just to add +1 damage per attack (D8 vs D6) may not be as good as bumping Strength to 18 and gaining +1 to hit and +1 to damage, but the image of the 3' tall guy flailing away with two axes as tall as he is does amuse.

[Ralanr]

How are you changing frenzy actually? I can see the concept you want and Frenzy as is doesn't support it sadly (Damn limited bonus actions).

[Citan]

Dual Wielding + Frenzy are contradictory. They both require using your Bonus Action to get a free attack, thus you can't do both in the same turn.

Drop one, or better - BOTH.
No, it's not contradictory at all. First of all, Frenzy is not automatic, you have to choose to activate it. Secondly, using it makes you exhausted which is annoying in itself and quickly brings real maluses.
Using DualWielder brings a malus-free bonus attack, so not bad in itself. Thirdly, it brings additional benefits such as AC bonus or using non-light weapons.

Plus it's explicitely required for the fluff of character concept.


Hello all,

I am starting a new 4th level character, and I would like to hear your thoughts on the build.
It's not particularly optimized, and that's fine with me, but I would appreciate some help on making my character a little more versatile. Bear in mind that for the sake of role play I would like to keep the character as sensible as possible with regard to choices of feats, class etc.

The idea is of a female (but kind of Tom boyish) Halfling with major anger issues. She has left her village to go and become a sailor (as background), but her temperament is extremely hot, so she's a Path of the Berserker Barbarian. She dual wields handaxes, and I want to take the Dual Wielder feat to use battleaxes for increased damage.

Now, I know this is sub optimal, but I've been able to persuade my DM to fix the Frenzy feature a bit, so as not to make it too bad. I'm also trying to persuade him to allow the use of the strength ability score with Intimidating Presence instead of charisma, but that remains to be seen.

Here are her stats:
Level 4 Stout Halfling Barbarian.
Stats (after racial bonuses):
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 12
CHA 11
note: I can't play too much with the stats because it's a fixed array: 16,14,11,11,11,9 + 3 points to distribute as preferred.

As I mentioned, I chose Path of the Berserker, and I'm taking the Dual Wielder feat at level 4.

So my only problem is her lack of versatility. What would you recommend taking as feats at level 8, 12, 16 and 19? Should I multiclass? How about 2 levels of rogue?

I kind of doubt we'll reach level 20, as most campaigns end at level 14-15.

What are your thoughts?
Hi! Thanks for bringing this concept, I kind of love these non-obvious, "devious" characters. :)

Your stats are pretty limiting in the choice of classes to multiclass.
If you bump the stats most important to you only (STR + CON), your multiclass options will be only Fighter and Rogue.
If you took a bump in WIS, Cleric, Monk, Druid and Ranger would open but even then they could not offer much... So I won't detail potential benefits unless you're interested.

Let's consider lvl3 dip in Fighter and Rogue.
Fighter
Anyways provides action surge and fighting style both very good for you.
Battlemaster gives short-rest boosts to damage and defense/positioning. Nice for burst damage or increase mobility/defense.
Eldricht Knight gives you useful cantrips for combat or RP, two spell slots for any spell and bound weapons (could be nice if you want to use throwing axes for the sake of fun).

Rogue
All archetypes provide Expertise on two skills (nice), Cunning Action (very good to improve mobility and defense) and 1d6 Sneak Attack.
Assassin isn't adapted to your fluff.
Thief can be good (better acrobatics, object as bonus action).
Sawshbuckler is perfect fluff-wise but brings very little to you as is (low Charisma, you use axes so no Sneak Attack).
Arcane Trickster gives you improved Mage Hand (great) and a few other spells and cantrips (as EK).

Considering your description, I feel magic does not correspond very well to your character (also, don't forget that no magic during rage) so I'd recommend dipping in Battlemaster.

If you are sure you won't ever get past lvl15 (or won't regret dropping Barbarian's capstone if you attained lvl20), my personal recommendation would be Barbarian X / Battlemaster 3 rather than Eldricht Knight. No problem of conflict between Magic and Rage, and since you want to use non-throwable weapons later, bound weapons are superfluous.
With that said, if you're interested in spells and cantrips, it's still a good choice for when you don't want to rage or for RP.

Eitherway, add Rogue 1 if you really really need/want Expertise on a skill otherwise it's useless. You would lose far too much on Barbarian side.

Have fun!

[bardo]

... but the image of the 3' tall guy girl flailing away with two axes as tall as he she is does amuse.

It really is a great concept. I'd do the stat distribution a bit differently: Instead of putting a point into DEX and WIS each, I'd put both points into STR because I feel at 4th level your STR must be 18 (or else you'd be dragging that STR 16 up to level 8, possibly later if multiclass).

STR 18
DEX 13
CON 16
INT 9
WIS 11
CHA 11

At some point, perhaps after Barbarian 6, take a level in fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting Style (adds STR modifier to the off-hand weapon damage), possibly two levels for Action Surge which lets you nova on those rare occasions where your Barbarian is perfectly positioned to kill EVERYONE.

[DireSickFish]

If you're going to dual wield then as noted above the main feature of a frenzy barbarian will be worthless. You will already be using your bonus action to attack with the offhand. Totem Barbarian would be a great choice to let you be a hafling that hacks people to death.

After taking the feat you should be spending all of your ASI's to increase ability scores. Barbarians benefit a lot from having high stats and are the only class in the game that can break caps by themselves. Get strength to 20 after picking up the feat. Medium armor will be necessary for most of your career as you took a 14 dex, which is fine.

The big question is do you want the two weapon fighting style. This is going to slow your progression on getting maxed STR. It also isn't a huge increase in damage it's only +3-5 damage for one of your 3 attacks. I don't think it's worth giving up class features for. If you stay frenzie barbarian and drop the dual wielding then you can still get a 3rd attack but don't need the two weapon fighting style. It also means you won't need the dual wielding feat.

So the way I see it your two options are to go totem barbarian, keep the dual weilding feat and stay barbarian till level 20 maxing strength and then bosting con.

or

Stay frenzie barbarian but pick up a shield or use the battleaxe two handed and drop the dual wielder feat for a STR boost.

Sorry your character concept is running into problems with bonus actions. I wish Barbarian had more sub-classes.

[acemcjack]

Thank you all for the replies. :)

First of all, I'm well aware of the fact that Frenzy and dual wielding are both bonus actions and therefore don't work together.
However, as was mentioned by Citan, Frenzy only works while raging, and therefore limited. When you consider the +1 to AC, and the fact that you can draw 2 weapons at the same time, it doesn't sound too bad to me.

As for the changes to Frenzy, I'm hoping my DM will change it to some form of tiredness that resets on short rest, or something like that, but I still don't know for sure.

As I explained, I'm taking Path of the Berserker for RP reasons, so even though Totem Barbarian has better features, I'm probably going to stick with that (provided my DM approves the changes to Frenzy).

As for Dual wielding, I might forgo the feat and simply use TWF in its basic form when dealing with weaker foes, wielding dual handaxes instead, and pulling out the battleaxe if needed. This frees up a feat/ASI at level 4.
As much as I would like to boost my STR at this point, I really prefer taking a feat that will give me interesting options rather than a dull +1 to my attack and damage. Perhaps Shield Master would be a good choice here?
Alternatively, if I redistribute my stats, taking off 1 point in WIS and adding it to STR, I could choose a feat that also adds 1 to STR, and enjoy both a feat and high STR.
That would hurt my perception, but perhaps I can find someway to raise it later with, say, the Observant feat at level 8.

Dipping a few levels of fighter is also something I might consider, but it's more of the same.
I'm also looking for options that help me outside combat, and that's one of the reasons I'm considering 2 levels of rogue - for the extra skill, expertise, cunning action, and then also sneak attack if it ever comes to play (can I apply it to a dagger I'm attacking with as a bonus action?)

Again, thanks for the input! :)

[acemcjack]

On second thought, I'm not really seeing anything interesting enough that'll let me boost my STR/DEX/CON by 1, so as to allow me to have 18,14,16 at this time.

[DireSickFish]

As much as I hate homebrew solutions on threads like these you might want to homebrew up a Whirlwind Barbarian subclass for this concept. It was an alternate Barbarian class in 3.5 and has all the flavor you want.

If you are going to dual wield and frenzy barbarian then you should take the feat and use both batleaxes when not raging. When normal raging still dual weild as you get the rage bonus on both attacks. When raging with frenzy you should either go axe and shield (which will be a net +1 AC option from raging and dual wielding while not frenzying and +str bonus to damage on the 3rd attack) or use the battleaxe versatile by itself for the 1d10 damage (this will be a loss of 1 AC from regular raging but come with an average 1 point damage boost per attack and a +str bonus for the third attack).

Either way you do it the fighter dip for two handed fighting style just isn't worth the boost in damage, especially with frenzy. As you can always just frenzy for the 3rd attack with str damage if you really want.

[Citan]

Thank you all for the replies. :)
As for the changes to Frenzy, I'm hoping my DM will change it to some form of tiredness that resets on short rest, or something like that, but I still don't know for sure.

Alternatively, if I redistribute my stats, taking off 1 point in WIS and adding it to STR, I could choose a feat that also adds 1 to STR, and enjoy both a feat and high STR.
That would hurt my perception, but perhaps I can find someway to raise it later with, say, the Observant feat at level 8.

Dipping a few levels of fighter is also something I might consider, but it's more of the same.
I'm also looking for options that help me outside combat, and that's one of the reasons I'm considering 2 levels of rogue - for the extra skill, expertise, cunning action, and then also sneak attack if it ever comes to play (can I apply it to a dagger I'm attacking with as a bonus action?)

Again, thanks for the input! :)
Hey again! About the Frenzy, AFAIK you didn't tell what change you proposed to the DM. I therefore suggest just toning down the malus from Frenzy, either as you hinted making it a short-rest exhaustion, or, for example, just limiting it in a way similar to War Cleric like, making it available as many times as CON modifier but on every short rest (or, CON+STR+DEX modifier every long rest, or, three times during each rage). This should be enough for most occasions, freeing a Feat, while keeping a bit of resource management.

As for dipping, even if you'd like to put emphasis to outside combat, not sure 2levels of Rogue would be better than going Eldricht Knight.
SA really is wasted on your build, Cunning Action is best in combat, less outside, so only real benefit is Expertise.

If you consider lvl3 dipping either way though, Arcane Trickster becomes more than a fair alternative to Eldricht Knight: same cantrip choices, many nice illusion spells and many (MANY) good things to do with an invisible Mage Hand.
So if you're ready to dip 3lvl, Rogue (Arcane Trickster) may be the best option indeed to enhance your out-of-combat role.

[Ralanr]

Hey again! About the Frenzy, AFAIK you didn't tell what change you proposed to the DM. I therefore suggest just toning down the malus from Frenzy, either as you hinted making it a short-rest exhaustion, or, for example, just limiting it in a way similar to War Cleric like, making it available as many times as CON modifier but on every short rest (or, CON+STR+DEX modifier every long rest, or, three times during each rage). This should be enough for most occasions, freeing a Feat, while keeping a bit of resource management.

As for dipping, even if you'd like to put emphasis to outside combat, not sure 2levels of Rogue would be better than going Eldricht Knight.
SA really is wasted on your build, Cunning Action is best in combat, less outside, so only real benefit is Expertise.

If you consider lvl3 dipping either way though, Arcane Trickster becomes more than a fair alternative to Eldricht Knight: same cantrip choices, many nice illusion spells and many (MANY) good things to do with an invisible Mage Hand.
So if you're ready to dip 3lvl, Rogue (Arcane Trickster) may be the best option indeed to enhance your out-of-combat role.

Doesn't look like there is enough int for that kind of dip.

[Mjolnirbear]

I made a halfling dexadin and it's so much fun. But keep in mind: size limits on things like grapple, or various issues with the different Athletic skill options, and of course the no heavy weapons thing that would gimp PM or GWF. I think it's worth it, completely; but you need to know where the size will hurt you.

This is an amazing fun build by the way. I had a friend with a halfling barb that dual weilded hammers, called him Hammertime for lulz.

Oh. And Climb Onto Bigger Creature was *made* for small characters. Look it up in the DMG. I rode a dragon in Mines of Phandelver and fell to my (temporary) unconsciousness after the killing blow. Epic.

[Citan]

Doesn't look like there is enough int for that kind of dip.
I know that character's INT is low, that's why I suggested Battlemaster first. With that said, you don't have any INT requirement to go Arcane Trickster AFAIK.

And while using attack spells with low INT is indeed very difficult, there are many other spells that don't rely on it.
Minor Illusion can work as long as people don't come too close.
Mending could be useful for a Barbarian who maybe breaks his weapons sometimes because "raging too hard". ^^
Light is always useful, as is Friends.
Shield can always be a nice panic button. Comprehend Languages, Tenser's Floating Disk or Unseen Servants are very useful in RP situations. Jump and Longstrider can always find their uses.

In short, there are enough good spells for low-INT character to choose from (especially with only 2 spell slots, which is for me the true problem of low-level dipping, making it worth for cantrips first).

[acemcjack]

Spells really don't seem to fit my vision of this character, so I really don't see her going Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster.

What I am looking for is something that'll enhance her skills a bit more.
I would also like to try and find a way to get her strength up to 18 without hurting the rest of the stats to badly. Any other ideas?

As for fixing Frenzy, I really don't know yet. It's up to my DM. I'm hoping he'll go for resetting the exhaustion level after a short rest, but I'm not sure.

[acemcjack]

So I've decided to rethink my character.
Instead of Berserker I'll go Totem path, and drop the Sailor background and take the Outlander background instead.

So now, Dual Wielder is much better, and if I take a couple levels of Fighter, it'll synergise really well, I think. When would be the best time to do this in your opinions?

[Citan]

So I've decided to rethink my character.
Instead of Berserker I'll go Totem path, and drop the Sailor background and take the Outlander background instead.

So now, Dual Wielder is much better, and if I take a couple levels of Fighter, it'll synergise really well, I think. When would be the best time to do this in your opinions?
Hi again! Very good choice imo, Totem path is much stronger whatever choice you make (for first step, Bear is the obvious one for resistance, but Eagle may seem more adapted to your fluff).

I'd suggest going at least lvl5 Barb for goodies, Path, Feat and Extra Attack, and up to 7th if you're the primary attacker (advantage on initiative). Then dipping into Fighter for 3 levels (Battlemaster) or Rogue for 1-2 levels (2nd is useless if you take Eagle imo) then finishing Barb.
I'd say for dipping Rogue 1/ BM 3 would be the best balance, but it's up to you. :)

[DireSickFish]

So I've decided to rethink my character.
Instead of Berserker I'll go Totem path, and drop the Sailor background and take the Outlander background instead.

So now, Dual Wielder is much better, and if I take a couple levels of Fighter, it'll synergise really well, I think. When would be the best time to do this in your opinions?

I'd get Barb 5 for the extra attack then if your going to dip fighter do it for 2-3 levels and go right back to barbarain. I'm guessing you'll be picking up the two weapon fighting style. For the totem I'm actually a HUGE fan of wolf totem barbarains, but it really depends on party composition. That advantage increases crit chance in a huge way so it synergies best with rogues and paladins. If you are lacking in bros to mele with you then go Bear.

Eagel is mechanically less powerful than the other two but if it fits your theme you can take it without gimping your character.

[acemcjack]

I will indeed be taking the wolf totem feature at 3rd level, but probably the eagle totem at 14th level (assuming I reach it). I really like the idea of being able to fly for short bursts, so that flying creatures can't evade me so easily.

So what do you think? 2 or 3 levels of fighter? If I go fighter 3, I'll probably take Battlemaster.

[Citan]

I will indeed be taking the wolf totem feature at 3rd level, but probably the eagle totem at 14th level (assuming I reach it). I really like the idea of being able to fly for short bursts, so that flying creatures can't evade me so easily.

So what do you think? 2 or 3 levels of fighter? If I go fighter 3, I'll probably take Battlemaster.
I find Wolf a bit less attuned than Eagle to your concept (which seemed to me being a lone wanderess) but it's very good in a party so nice one.

For Fighter, Action Surge is not enough. Take the third dip and enjoy Battlemaster (I'd advice taking Evasive Footwork to get an emergency escape button, for the rest all are great abilities so no bad choice).

[acemcjack]

I find Wolf a bit less attuned than Eagle to your concept (which seemed to me being a lone wanderess) but it's very good in a party so nice one.

For Fighter, Action Surge is not enough. Take the third dip and enjoy Battlemaster (I'd advice taking Evasive Footwork to get an emergency escape button, for the rest all are great abilities so no bad choice).

Thanks, Citan! :)

[acemcjack]

OK, an update on my build:
In the end, I went Dual battleaxe wielding Totem Barbarian Halfling. We're currently level 5, and lately I've been thinking of dipping Moon Druid - mostly for RP and out of battle reasons and less for combat reasons.

Again, not looking to be optimized so much, but I don't want to spread myself too thin, thereby falling too far behind the rest of the party (which consists of a paladin, two monks, a wizard and a warlock-rogue).

So how would you guys recommend going about this? I still want to dip fighter for a level or two, to get the dual weapon fighting style and maybe action surge, but I'm wondering if 2 levels of Druid are enough, or maybe it's worth going all the way up to 6 for the CR2 forms and the ability to take forms that can swim and fly.

Also, when should I start dipping (reminder: I'm currently a level 5 barb)?

Any thoughts?

[DireSickFish]

You should either start dipping immediately because you just hit a huge power spike and the next one doesn't come till level 11, or wait till after level 12 to dip because you get the power spike and the ASI. That is what would be best from an optimization standpoint.

[Zman]

I have a similar character, Half Orc though who like Longswords haha. I'm only going Barbarian 2, then Straight Fighter(Champion). A Fighter Multiclass is great as it gives you Two Weapon Fighting for Strength to your offhand which is an automatic +3 damage on that second attack. Of course Action Surge is great and Fighter eventually adds more attacks. Champion increases your Crit range, though Battlemaster could be just as useful for you. Dual Wielder is Great for AC and an extra +1 Damage per attack.

I was also going to eventually pick up Resilient Dex and Medium Armor Master so my character could Stealth in Half Plate.

[Dizlag]

I've got a dex-based stout halfling barbarian sailor aka viking, who wields a scimitar and shield. He just turned 4th level and has a 13 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 14 WIS, 10 CHA. This means he's got a 19 AC in just his raggy, peasant clothing and has taken the Totem Path and picked up Bear Totem. I'm having a TON of fun with this guy as a fearless, raging miniature viking. Yeah, I don't get the STR bump from Raging or the Reckless Attack, but his Rage fuels his ability to actually take a hit ... when they can hit him. =)

Good luck!

Dizlag

[Tenmujiin]

I'd recomend either picking up some druid casting from feats or talking to your DM about getting rhe shapeshifting from homebrew feats/trading out some barbarian features. Dipping into druid would hurt your character badly at this point I suspect.

I was going to talk about dipping druid being bad but then I reread barbarian and that is a fairly frontloaded class. You should already have most of what you want from barbarian though you may want to keep going to level 7 to get your level 6 totem ability and advantage on initiative.

Dipping 3 levels of fighter (or with DM approval 2 levels of the UA spelless ranger, or both if you want ALL the manuvers) gives you combat manuvers which can really help give a ton of versatility in combat while a druid dip would definately help your out of combat versatility and since you already have basically all your combat power from the first 5 levels of barbarian you don't need to worry too much about spreading yourself thin.

Remember that without a 13 in wis or DM fiat you won't be able to multiclass into druid.

I'd either go for 8 levels of barb and grab a wisdom feat or bump wisdom with the ASI and then go druid or 4 levels of fighter for action surge, battlemaster frontloaded goodness and an ASI to get your wisdom up.

If your DM lets you multiclass with low wis (or if your wis is higher than the 12 in your first post) then dipping druid should be fine, again you already have most of your combat power so you shouldn't really fall behind the rest of your party in that regard even if your multiclassing lets them catch up.

Basically you can focus on making the right choices for your character rather than your build at this point.

Edit: if you do find yourself falling behind anything that buffs your per-hit damage is good but rage stops you from taking advantage of concentration spells very well. 3 levels of fighter or 2 of spelless ranger really would be your best bet there.

[Ghost Dragon]

Hey acemcjack,

Love your original build idea with berserker two weapon fighting. I have a player who is doing a the same thing except with a dwarf. I made the following adjustments to two weapon fighting rules, dual wielder feat, a new feat warrior, and frenzy rules to let him do it. I think its fairly balanced, but have a look and let me know what you think. Link below. :)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472744-Two-weapon-fighting-simple-fix-for-barbarian-character-(PEACH)

[acemcjack]

I was going to talk about dipping druid being bad but then I reread barbarian and that is a fairly frontloaded class. You should already have most of what you want from barbarian though you may want to keep going to level 7 to get your level 6 totem ability and advantage on initiative.

Dipping 3 levels of fighter (or with DM approval 2 levels of the UA spelless ranger, or both if you want ALL the manuvers) gives you combat manuvers which can really help give a ton of versatility in combat while a druid dip would definately help your out of combat versatility and since you already have basically all your combat power from the first 5 levels of barbarian you don't need to worry too much about spreading yourself thin.

Remember that without a 13 in wis or DM fiat you won't be able to multiclass into druid.

I'd either go for 8 levels of barb and grab a wisdom feat or bump wisdom with the ASI and then go druid or 4 levels of fighter for action surge, battlemaster frontloaded goodness and an ASI to get your wisdom up.

If your DM lets you multiclass with low wis (or if your wis is higher than the 12 in your first post) then dipping druid should be fine, again you already have most of your combat power so you shouldn't really fall behind the rest of your party in that regard even if your multiclassing lets them catch up.

Basically you can focus on making the right choices for your character rather than your build at this point.

Edit: if you do find yourself falling behind anything that buffs your per-hit damage is good but rage stops you from taking advantage of concentration spells very well. 3 levels of fighter or 2 of spelless ranger really would be your best bet there.

Thanks, Tenmujiin, I very much appreciate your input.
Regarding my Wisdom score, I'm indeed aware of the limitation imposed on multiclassing. Our group is considering implementing a house rule that allows taking certain flaws in exchange for bonus feats and skill proficiencies, and I plan on taking Resilient (WIS), so that I can bump my wisdom to 13 (and acquire a much needed proficiency in an important save). If, indeed, we implement this rule, I can start multiclassing to druid at level 6.
You've made some excellent points regarding the Barbarian being fairly front-loaded, so I think I'll start dipping as soon as possible.

My major concern at this point is the ASIs. I should probably wait till I'm level 8 anyway, and bump my STR or CON score up, then begin multiclassing to Fighter and Druid. with 2-3 levels in Fighter and 6 levels in Druid, I'll be losing 2 ASIs by my calculations, so maybe I'm better off taking an extra level of Fighter just to make it an even 4.
Any recommendations on how I should spread the levels?

[Malifice]

Thank you all for the replies. :)

First of all, I'm well aware of the fact that Frenzy and dual wielding are both bonus actions and therefore don't work together.
However, as was mentioned by Citan, Frenzy only works while raging, and therefore limited. When you consider the +1 to AC, and the fact that you can draw 2 weapons at the same time, it doesn't sound too bad to me.

As for the changes to Frenzy, I'm hoping my DM will change it to some form of tiredness that resets on short rest, or something like that, but I still don't know for sure.

As I explained, I'm taking Path of the Berserker for RP reasons, so even though Totem Barbarian has better features, I'm probably going to stick with that (provided my DM approves the changes to Frenzy).

As for Dual wielding, I might forgo the feat and simply use TWF in its basic form when dealing with weaker foes, wielding dual handaxes instead, and pulling out the battleaxe if needed. This frees up a feat/ASI at level 4.
As much as I would like to boost my STR at this point, I really prefer taking a feat that will give me interesting options rather than a dull +1 to my attack and damage. Perhaps Shield Master would be a good choice here?
Alternatively, if I redistribute my stats, taking off 1 point in WIS and adding it to STR, I could choose a feat that also adds 1 to STR, and enjoy both a feat and high STR.
That would hurt my perception, but perhaps I can find someway to raise it later with, say, the Observant feat at level 8.

Dipping a few levels of fighter is also something I might consider, but it's more of the same.
I'm also looking for options that help me outside combat, and that's one of the reasons I'm considering 2 levels of rogue - for the extra skill, expertise, cunning action, and then also sneak attack if it ever comes to play (can I apply it to a dagger I'm attacking with as a bonus action?)

Again, thanks for the input! :)

If you wanted +1 to AC i would just spam Con (or Dex).

But for fluff, go for it man.

[acemcjack]

If you wanted +1 to AC i would just spam Con (or Dex).

But for fluff, go for it man.

The build you're commenting about is a bit outdated. See my last post. :)

[Malifice]

The build you're commenting about is a bit outdated. See my last post. :)

Bearbarian druid is great.

I suggest a 2 level dip into Paladin (ancients fits the fluff brilliantly). Youll need Cha of 13 to do it, but you'll be able to spam those spell slots into smites while a raging bear.

Fixes the one big gripe with Moon Druids (low DPR at high levels)

You want Paladin 2, Barbarian 3, Druid (moon) 15.

Frenzy isnt that bad either as the bonus action extra attack from frenzy combines with multiattack (giving you 3 smites per round).

Also; pretty sure elementals are immune to exhaustion :)

Barbairan at 1st, then into druid for 2 levels to get bear up and running. From there its 2 levels of paladin (for smite), then back to 2 levels of barbarian, then ride out druid for the rest.

[acemcjack]

Bearbarian druid is great.

I suggest a 2 level dip into Paladin (ancients fits the fluff brilliantly). Youll need Cha of 13 to do it, but you'll be able to spam those spell slots into smites while a raging bear.

Fixes the one big gripe with Moon Druids (low DPR at high levels)

Dipping Paladin is really not how I see my character.

She's not at all nice and cheerful, and I don't see her becoming a protector of all that is good and natural. She's a savage, who comes from a tribe of nomad Halflings, that's been attacked and destroyed by Goblins, and she's out for revenge. ;)

I prefer going Druid.

[Malifice]

Dipping Paladin is really not how I see my character.

She's not at all nice and cheerful, and I don't see her becoming a protector of all that is good and natural. She's a savage, who comes from a tribe of nomad Halflings, that's been attacked and destroyed by Goblins, and she's out for revenge. ;)

I prefer going Druid.

You are aware that there is a Paladin oath valled 'Oath of Vengance' that swears an oath to wipe out (lets say...goblins) by any means. They can employ torture, genocide and murder in the pursuit of this end.

They can even be evilly aligned (and many of them probably are). Their entire schtick is 'revenge'

My current Paladin is a LE genocidal monster.

[acemcjack]

You are aware that there is a Paladin oath valled 'Oath of Vengance' that swears an oath to wipe out (lets say...goblins) by any means. They can employ torture, genocide and murder in the pursuit of this end.

They can even be evilly aligned (and many of them probably are). Their entire schtick is 'revenge'

My current Paladin is a LE genocidal monster.
I know, but I don't see a lot of synergy with Barbarian. Not to mention the fact that this build is quite MAD (no pun intended ;) ). I'm already dependent on STR, CON, DEX and WIS (somewhat). Adding CHA to it is just too much.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I don't think it fits my character and the idea behind her.

[Malifice]

I know, but I don't see a lot of synergy with Barbarian. Not to mention the fact that this build is quite MAD (no pun intended ;) ). I'm already dependent on STR, CON, DEX and WIS (somewhat). Adding CHA to it is just too much.

Smite. You run around in bear form, raging, burning spell slots to add +5d8 to your claws/ teeth/ slam damage or burn them to heal, and taking half damage from attacks in return (to your not real HP).

The problem with moon druids is the DPR rapidly falls behind from low mid level onwards. Adding the 2 levels of paladin in there plugs this gap.

Even in Bear form (Paladin 2, Druid 2, Barbarian 1) you make 2 attacks per round at +5, dealing 2D6+6 and 1d8+6, and are able to spam an extra +2-3d8 damage on a hit via smite. Or simply cast hunters mark for an extra +1d6 damage per attack before shifting. You take half damage on a hit (off your 34 temp HP 2/short rest).

In two more levels you become a frenzy barbarian and get to make 3 attacks per round. Your damage goes up from there via smites.

As a barbarian you can add Con to your AC, and halve incoming damage. The small vengance paladin dip is for flavor (youve sworn an oath to avenge your villiage by annhilating goblins 'by any means') and to plug the one gap in the Moon Druids arsenal (DPR).

Re stats, dump Dex and Int (you dont need them). Str can be 13 (as can Cha). Wisdom needs to be high. Con should be OK.

S 14
D 10
C 12
i 8
w 15
Ch 13

Would be my starting array.

I would also go a ghostwise halfling for the telepathy (and better stats). Awesome utility in animal form (you can still talk).


I appreciate the suggestion, but I don't think it fits my character and the idea behind her.

I would have thought a vengance paladin/ druid perfect for a divine champion of nature on a quest for vengance.

Its your dude man, play it however feels right.

[acemcjack]

Smite. You run around in bear form, raging, burning spell slots to add +5d8 to your claws/ teeth/ slam damage or burn them to heal, and taking half damage from attacks in return (to your not real HP).

The problem with moon druids is the DPR rapidly falls behind from low mid level onwards. Adding the 2 levels of paladin in there plugs this gap.

Even in Bear form (Paladin 2, Druid 2, Barbarian 1) you make 2 attacks per round at +5, dealing 2D6+6 and 1d8+6, and are able to spam an extra +2-3d8 damage on a hit via smite. Or simply cast hunters mark for an extra +1d6 damage per attack before shifting. You take half damage on a hit (off your 34 temp HP 2/short rest).

In two more levels you become a frenzy barbarian and get to make 3 attacks per round. Your damage goes up from there via smites.

As a barbarian you can add Con to your AC, and halve incoming damage. The small vengance paladin dip is for flavor (youve sworn an oath to avenge your villiage by annhilating goblins 'by any means') and to plug the one gap in the Moon Druids arsenal (DPR).

Re stats, dump Dex and Int (you dont need them). Str can be 13 (as can Cha). Wisdom needs to be high. Con should be OK.

S 14
D 10
C 12
i 8
w 15
Ch 13

Would be my starting array.

I would also go a ghostwise halfling for the telepathy (and better stats). Awesome utility in animal form (you can still talk).



I would have thought a vengance paladin/ druid perfect for a divine champion of nature on a quest for vengance.

Its your dude man, play it however feels right.

Are you sure the Smite feature is at all usable during rage? If it burns spell slots, doesn't it constitute as casting a spell, which is against the rules while in rage by RAW?

As for the suggested build, it looks like an awesome build - for another character. At any rate, my DM won't let me change my current build retroactively, and he will not allow Ghostwise Halflings for some reason (I argued with him for days on that).

[Malifice]

Are you sure the Smite feature is at all usable during rage? If it burns spell slots, doesn't it constitute as casting a spell, which is against the rules while in rage by RAW?

As for the suggested build, it looks like an awesome build - for another character. At any rate, my DM won't let me change my current build retroactively, and he will not allow Ghostwise Halflings for some reason (I argued with him for days on that).

By RAW yes. You're not casting a spell. You can heal and smite to your hearts content while raging.

For the same reason smites can't be counter spelled.

Sucks re Ghostwise. They're pretty ace.

[Tenmujiin]

I'd say either drop barbarian now, drop it at 7/8 (depending on ASI needs) or stick with it to 20 (or wherever the campaign ends) once you hit 11 the barb features pick up again theres just a nice deadzone at 6 and from 8-10 that you can drop the class at (also at 4-5 if you have extra attack from another source but you don't).

Personally I'd drop barb at 5 for druid with the fluff you seem to have and grab 2 variant ranger (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes) levels at the first sign of falling behind in DPS or 3 fighter levels if you dm doesn't allow the ranger. Your character will be bitsy/eclectic from the moment you drop barb for a spellcaster so you may as well embrace the multiclass. If the DM allows the ranger variant then it goes well with 3 fighter levels (the frontloaded dice stack).

Edit: 2 paladin levels work well too by letting you burn slots in a rage as Malfice pointed out but can be hard to justify RP wise, not to mention your stats.

[GoldenDwarf]

Better go higher str and lower con, you have enough HP as barbarian.

[acemcjack]

I'd say either drop barbarian now, drop it at 7/8 (depending on ASI needs) or stick with it to 20 (or wherever the campaign ends) once you hit 11 the barb features pick up again theres just a nice deadzone at 6 and from 8-10 that you can drop the class at (also at 4-5 if you have extra attack from another source but you don't).

Personally I'd drop barb at 5 for druid with the fluff you seem to have and grab 2 variant ranger (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes) levels at the first sign of falling behind in DPS or 3 fighter levels if you dm doesn't allow the ranger. Your character will be bitsy/eclectic from the moment you drop barb for a spellcaster so you may as well embrace the multiclass. If the DM allows the ranger variant then it goes well with 3 fighter levels (the frontloaded dice stack).

Edit: 2 paladin levels work well too by letting you burn slots in a rage as Malfice pointed out but can be hard to justify RP wise, not to mention your stats.

Thanks again, Tenmujiin, I'll check with my DM if I can use the Variant Ranger. The addition of maneuvers would be awesome at level 2. If not, I'll take a couple or three levels in Fighter instead.

As for Druid levels, any recommendations on whether I should take 2 or 6 (or anything in between)?

[Tenmujiin]

As for Druid levels, any recommendations on whether I should take 2 or 6 (or anything in between)?

It depends on what you want from durid but if you go moon and plan on using the forms in combat at all I'd recomend at least 6 levels for magic beast attakcs, 8 may be worth it for flight. Otherwise theres no real breakpoints in druid other than 2, 4 and 6 and even then only of you don't care about the spells.

[acemcjack]

It depends on what you want from durid but if you go moon and plan on using the forms in combat at all I'd recomend at least 6 levels for magic beast attakcs, 8 may be worth it for flight. Otherwise theres no real breakpoints in druid other than 2, 4 and 6 and even then only of you don't care about the spells.
Hmm... For some reason, I was certain the limitation on shifting into flying beasts was lifted at level 6, not 8.
In that case, it makes my choice a bit easier, and I think I'll go for 2 levels of Moon Druid. That should be enough for most out-of-combat options, with the added bonus of a few cantrips and 1st level utility spells.
If I can persuade my DM to allow the variant ranger, then I lose just 1 ASI, and continue on as Barbarian.

Thanks for the tips! :)

[djreynolds]

You know what an awesome build for a barbarian is? 20 levels of barbarian.

I ain't never met no 20th level Halfling barbarian neither. You could be the first.

[acemcjack]

You know what an awesome build for a barbarian is? 20 levels of barbarian.

I ain't never met no 20th level Halfling barbarian neither. You could be the first.

It an awesome build, if you're looking to maximize power and damage output, sure. Personally, I'm looking to build a fun, interesting character that's more unconventional. :)

I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to think of such a build, but thanks all the same.