Impressions of a level 12 "way of the four elements" monk [Archive]

ruy343

2015-08-05, 11:36 AM

Last night, my group got together and made some higher level characters which we played for a short while. We're planning to continue our adventures in the coming weeks, so more may be added with time.

However, as I put together my monk character, I decided to try out the four elements monk, just to see if they were really as bad as is often griped about. The things that I realized are as follows:

I still have access to my martial arts abilities like dodge, flurry, disengage and dash
I still have my stunning strike and arrow-catching.
Although I don't get the fun stuff in the other two paths, I do get a handful of other situationally useful powers. When I started thinking of it that way, the utility spells I could cast like gaseous form and gust of wind became flavorful opportunities for casting that didn't cost too much; I just couldn't use them every round. I was OK with that.

Essentially, the plan is to play a normal monk, but occasionally bust out my powers when they're useful; not use them every round in combat (because any path would wear itself out if they nova'd).

Word of advice to those making a monk of this type: don't expect to use your powers every round of combat. The high-damage abilities start to pale in comparison to your normal unarmed attacks at higher levels, so go for some of the abilities that you can't normally get (like gaseous form, fly, stoneskin, shatter (or other AoE), and others). I think that you'll enjoy playing a monk of the four elements when you view these powers as things that you don't use every round, but can use in a pinch.

I'll keep everyone posted on how I feel after later sessions.

Ardantis

2015-08-05, 11:41 AM

I can't wait to hear more.

Celcey

2015-08-05, 08:25 PM

Ralanr

2015-08-05, 08:34 PM

You mean there are others who get behind the concept of saving a resource?

All sarcasm aside, interested in seeing how it develops.

Mara

2015-08-05, 08:37 PM

This game is surprisingly well designed. This kind of monk gets avatar prestidigitation. That alone sells it for me.

PoeticDwarf

2015-08-08, 02:22 AM

Dralnu

2015-08-08, 10:03 AM

Elemental monk is fully functional because the base class (like most classes) has everything you need to be a contributing member to the party. You have lots of utility, adequate damage, and the almighty Stunning Strike.

I'd never say that Elemental Monk actively makes your character worse. Elemental gives a wee bit extra on top of base monk, just significantly less than the other two subclasses.

If you happen to enjoy the subclass, more power to you!

MaxWilson

2015-08-08, 03:00 PM

This sounds pretty interesting. I've heard plenty of people who defend the Beast Master archetype (and I'm among them), but I've never heard of anyone playing an Elements Monk. I'm big on the idea of don't knock it till you try it, especially since stuff that can look lame on paper can actually play out really well. I'm very curious to see how this plays out.

There's an Aarakocra Elemental Monk 6 in my campaign (Air specialization). His elemental abilities rarely come into play but he's still been very effective as a Monk: diving into combat, hammering with fists, and then pulling back out (thanks to Mobile). He was a key factor in helping the party beat a Rakshasa because he was one of the few characters who could penetrate its immunity to normal weapons and therefore one of the few characters who could effectively use poison against it. (Drow poison knocked the Rakshasa out and then another character drowned it in the river after the combat was over.)

(The other characters without magic weapons stayed busy fighting off the illithid, intellect devourers, and their intellect-devoured party mates.)

MOLOKH

2015-08-08, 05:18 PM

I've played an Elemental Monk from levels 1 to 5 in a short and fast-paced side campaign. Here are my thoughts:

First, I rolled pretty close to godly stats. We're talking something like 17 16 16 14 12 12. Because I didn't want to overshadow anybody I decided to go with arguably the weakest Monk school and go for flavor over functionality by basically wasting the feat from being Human on Magic Initiate. The character was the happy-go-lucky pilgrim who could also kick ass when needed.

For the most part the character was a success - he had good damage output, an AC that ultimately just didn't cut it even at 17, a respectable health pool, and a way to contribute in a variety of situations. I was very pleased that I got to use pretty much all my Monk abilities in a meaningful manner, even if it wasn't every session. Flurry was predictably the most used, but Step of the Wind helped a lot against a rolling boulder and in some other situations, Deflect missiles saved my life against some manticores and while we were running away from an army shooting at our backs, Feather fall also saved me a ton of damage on several occasions, and Stinning strike always felt like it could be a game-changer, even when the target made its save.

The actual elemental abilities, however, are another story. Naturally I went with Water Whip and the DM ruled we'd play it by the book and use it as a bonus action. It still didn't deliver. That was mostly because of the monsters always making their saves, but it still felt kind of frustrating. I did have a lot of opportunities to use it to great effect - pulling an Ettin from a cliff above us into a river, pulling a Manticore from the air, pulling some casters down from a ramp while they were peppering us with spells, or just save some movement and do some good DPR. But they made the save every bleeping time and I generally did less damage with the whip than my unarmed strikes. I did use it to great cinematic effect a few times - I sneaked into a tent and pulled some minor artifact for creating portals to hell literally from under a devil's nose. The reactions at the table were worth it in and of themselves. This other time we were in a Lucha Libre-style tornado tag team match. I stunned one of the wrestlers, then next round climbed on the top rope, Water whiped him over to me (the one time it worked was because he failed the save automatically due to being stunned), flipped him over and piledrived him onto the canvas. The crowd went wild.

I never even got to use the Elemental Attunment cantrip and there weren't really any practical or fun situations to do so. Sadly the character managed to die before reaching level six and I got to swap it out. He got crushed by some Yuan-Ti or however it's spelled. That's the main problem I had with the Monk class in general - he's got a bunch of situational defenses, but when faced with a giant tanky beatstick, he loses ground very quickly and I found myself knocked out several times over a few short sessions.

Even if I had chosen a different discipline, I almost always wanted to use my Ki for more flurries, Stunning strikes or even Patient Defense. There were just never enough points, and I actually had one extra Ki point on top because of a boon by some minor diety. A few times I wished I'd taken Fist of Unbroken Air, but then I could've just chosen the Way of Open Hand and knocked people back automatically. All other low-level options seemed rather lackluster, but if I get to play an Elemental Monk again, I'd probably go for Fangs of the Fire Snake just so I can have a different attack type in case we face creatures with resistance to physical damage, then swap it out later when I get magical fists. It also would've worked wonders against that Black Pudding I almost suicided into.

In general, the low-level Elemental abilities seemed underwhelming or just uninspired, even when you get to do cool Last Airbender stuff. The sixth level ones actually look even worse and I just couldn't find something to pick out either thematically or optimisation-wise. Those that come later seem more than decent, but as of yet I can't comment on them. It also irks me how unevenly they're distributed throughout levels and elements. I'd expect the designers to put at least a single discipline for each element on each level, but that's far from the case. Here's hoping they release more in upcoming books or rule that some of the spells from Temple of Elemental Evil can be chose as disciplines, especially Absorb Elements. It's almost mindboggling that this exact subclass doesn't have some way to prevent elemental damage.

I guess I can't really complain that much, as the Elemental Monk is somewhat close to a Warlock, spamming Fireballs, Fly and Wall of Stone after short rests, but at lower levels I barely got the actual feeling of playing the subclass and did most of the work through the basic Monk abilities. The Elemental abilties were just too expensive or too weak or took up too much action economy to justify using. Not to mention you can't simply bump your dexterity before wisdom, as your saves will suffer a lot.

Monk's still my favorite class though.

MaxWilson

2015-08-08, 05:29 PM

I never even got to use the Elemental Attunment cantrip and there weren't really any practical or fun situations to do so. Sadly the character managed to die before reaching level six and I got to swap it out. He got crushed by some Yuan-Ti or however it's spelled. That's the main problem I had with the Monk class in general - he's got a bunch of situational defenses, but when faced with a giant tanky beatstick, he loses ground very quickly and I found myself knocked out several times over a few short sessions.

Agree about monks not being great melee tanks. One of the Shadow Monks at my table (monks are quite popular) took the Alert feat though, which lets her use her Darkness ability to give herself defensive advantages without impairing offense at all[1]. It's basically equivalent to the Blur spell. She's still more hammer than anvil, less tanky than the paladin, but it helps a lot.

Elemental monks don't have that option of course.

[1] Offensively, enemy attackers can't see her = disadvantage for them and she can't see them = nothing (because of Alert). Offensively, she can't see them = disadvantage and they can't see her = advantage, and advantage + disadvantage = nothing. So it's basically just disadvantage for her attackers, like a free Dodge.

Malifice

2015-08-08, 08:57 PM

Agree about monks not being great melee tanks. One of the Shadow Monks at my table (monks are quite popular) took the Alert feat though, which lets her use her Darkness ability to give herself defensive advantages without impairing offense at all[1]. It's basically equivalent to the Blur spell. She's still more hammer than anvil, less tanky than the paladin, but it helps a lot.

Elemental monks don't have that option of course.

[1] Offensively, enemy attackers can't see her = disadvantage for them and she can't see them = nothing (because of Alert). Offensively, she can't see them = disadvantage and they can't see her = advantage, and advantage + disadvantage = nothing. So it's basically just disadvantage for her attackers, like a free Dodge.

The second benefit of Alert only applies to attacks from 'hidden' creatures, which being in darkness does not automatically grant.

They can't be seen, but they're not hidden.

They don't get advantage to Attack her by virtue of being hidden. Which (unless they take the Hide action) they're not simply on account of standing in the radius of a darkness spell.

Alert doesn't help you if you have the blinded condition, or are attacked by an invisible creature (that isn't hidden) either.

The alert feat (by RAW) only helps if the creatures in darkness attempt to hide.

Makes sense to apply the benefits to invisible creatures and when blinded too though. I doubt it was RAI to grant an attacker advantage on Attack rolls when they are noisy in darkness vs a PC with the alert feat, yet when they attempt to Hide in the darkness and Attack, the advantage is negated!

MaxWilson

2015-08-09, 09:04 PM

The second benefit of Alert only applies to attacks from 'hidden' creatures, which being in darkness does not automatically grant... The alert feat (by RAW) only helps if the creatures in darkness attempt to hide.

Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I am deliberately choosing the interpretation of Alert which makes the ability non-absurd. When RAW has two possible interpretations, both of which are supported and one of which is absurd, I choose the one which is not absurd. It would be crazy if a successful Stealth roll decreased your odds of hitting a creature with Alert, so I interpret "hidden" in the feat as a non-technical term instead of treating the usage of "hidden" on PHB 195 as a defined keyword.

But thanks for calling that out, because I suppose it's possible that some DMs would rule differently, and it's useful for people to know that.

Ardantis

2015-08-10, 09:03 AM

I think this thread highlights what can be so frustrating about a Monk- they're not tanks and they're not top damage dealers, and Elements spellcasting does not help with this.

However, they work great when played to their strengths- mobility and control.

I'm curious how people's experience with the Elements Monk augmented their ability to move and control the battlefield, specifically with the Fire Fangs ability but also with the other low-mid level spells.

How often did you blow Ki on spells instead of base Monk abilities, and at what levels (if any) did this change?

Also, can you Stunning Strike at range with Fire Fangs?

Vogonjeltz

2015-08-10, 04:36 PM

There are some nice elemental monk things, but you know little disiplinces, and it costs really much ki points. Fly and that sort stuff is nice, wall of fire and wall of stone also. Gaseous form maybe, and shape the flowing river has his uses. But the other paths are giving better stuff, you can always/more often use.

Shadow monk level 2 spells: costs 2 ki
Elemental monk level 2 spells: costs 3 ki

As shadow monk you know more / as many spells as an elemental monk. As open hand monk you just become better in combat, but not everyone wants that.

Shadow monk: You can cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, or silence along with the minor illusion cantrip.

So, one spell that is basically required to enable their 6th and 11th level class features, and the rest are forgettable augmentations that have little real benefit.

Vs.

Elemental Monk: Aoe damage spells (other monks are limited to single target), ranged damage spells that impose status effects, and a few utility spells. Despite the slightly increased ki cost for one spell (hold person; all others at the same level cost 2), this seems to be flat out better in terms of combat options. The ki cost difference also basically makes no difference. Each can only actually get one casting off per short rest at the time the spells are acquired.

SharkForce

2015-08-10, 05:55 PM

you don't need to cast any spell to find shadows most of the time, and darkness is good for other things too, especially if you have some means of seeing through it. can also be used to interfere with an enemy's ability to attack you.

darkvision is a no-concentration buff that lets you function in darkness even if you don't have darkvision. sounds fine to me.

pass without trace is a huge group +10 bonus to stealth. how in hell does that not sound useful to you? at level 3, a shadow monk has a bonus 5 times as large as a rogue of the same level is getting from expertise.

silence... aka "that spell that screws over spellcasters royally", aka "you have no chance to pass a perception(hearing) check".

all on a class that revolves around stealth. and somehow you have managed to convince yourself that not one of these are useful for setting up ambushes, sneaking around, or anything like that. did you even look up what these spells do before you dismissed them as useless?

also, the *only* spell that element monks get that isn't costing them spell level + 1 ki (compared to the shadow monk that pays spell level ki) is gust of wind. it isn't just a one-time deal. frankly, i half suspect the gust of wind cost to be a typo.

MaxWilson

2015-08-10, 06:11 PM

you don't need to cast any spell to find shadows most of the time, and darkness is good for other things too, especially if you have some means of seeing through it. can also be used to interfere with an enemy's ability to attack you.

It's also useful to have Darkness on a fighter-type chassis due to concentration economy. If the Lore Bard is summoning cobras (Giant Poisonous Snakes) or the Sorcerer is Animating Objects, the Shadow Monk can summon Darkness to let them take advantage of their Blindsight. Same thing goes for an Earth Elemental with its Tremorsense.

The monk usually has nothing better to do with his concentration (unless it's PWT time), so Darkness is pretty much a no-brainer in these situations. 2 ki is practically free.

Malifice

2015-08-10, 11:13 PM

My only issues with the Monk so far, is the piddling damage they deal at higher levels. They're great at the levels 1-3 tier, but then rapidly drop off.

At 10th level dealing 1d6+dex twice per round (plus an extra 1-2 attacks from martial arts or flurry) isnt the greatest for a class that has little else to fall back on outside of combat. Even assuming a Dex of 20, flurry, and all 4 attacks hitting, 34 damage on average per round. In practical experience, they rarely top 15 damage per round before 11th level

They lack the 'burst' options of the other melee types (action surge/ superiority dice of the BM fighter, the unpredictable but deadly brutal critical + reckless attack of the barbarian, the smite of the Paladin, and the hunters mark + colossus slayer of the Ranger). Importantly, they cant take advantage of GWM to boost damage, and archery probably really isnt their thing making Marksman less of an attractive option) although with their mobility and defenses, they make a decent archer (if far from an ideal one). They also get very little love from magical items to boost DPR, cant take advantage of any of the fighting styles (barring archery and a little love for dueling for the weapon kata monks).

They do have the best defences in the game (a swathe of immunities, proficiency in every save, unarmored defence, dodge as a bonus action, deflect arrows etc) and the best mobility of all the front line fighters, and are capable of some nifty battlefield control from time to time. I just feel that the damage is a tad low.

Dipping fighter (BM) 3 is a no brainer for mine. The addition of action surge and superiority dice (for extra battlefield control and precise strike landing of those stunning fists) greatly increases the potency of the class.

Personally, I would really like to see feat support for different martial arts 'styles'. Something like:

Iron Monk
Prerequisite: Martial arts class feature, flurry of blows class feature
Benefit:

You deal double damage to objects with your unarmed strikes.
Once per round when you make an unarmed strike, you can choose to take a penalty of -5 to your attack roll in exchange for +10 to the damage of any successful strike made with this attack.
You can spend 1 ki point as a reaction to gain resistance to non magical bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage until the start of your next turn.

Citan

2015-08-11, 02:00 AM

They lack the 'burst' options of the other melee types (action surge/ superiority dice of the BM fighter, the unpredictable but deadly brutal critical + reckless attack of the barbarian, the smite of the Paladin, and the hunters mark + colossus slayer of the Ranger). Importantly, they cant take advantage of GWM to boost damage, and archery probably really isnt their thing making Marksman less of an attractive option) although with their mobility and defenses, they make a decent archer (if far from an ideal one). They also get very little love from magical items to boost DPR, cant take advantage of any of the fighting styles (barring archery and a little love for dueling for the weapon kata monks).

Dipping fighter (BM) 3 is a no brainer for mine. The addition of action surge and superiority dice (for extra battlefield control and precise strike landing of those stunning fists) greatly increases the potency of the class.

Personally, I would really like to see feat support for different martial arts 'styles'. Something like:

Hey :)

I globally agree with you on your points, just two remarks.

1. Technically, nothing prevents Monk to use GWM. It "just" makes him mad since he's very reliant on DEX for armor, so it means it has either to bump DEX AND STR or find another way to get some armor (like Magic Initiate or a class dip such as Arcane Trickster to get Mage Armor).

On the same page, nothing prevents Monk to just boost DEX and have one weapon free (Unarmed Strikes) and get a hand crossbow with Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert. It's huge on feats but can work too.

With that said...

2. I agree with you that dipping in another martial class is the most efficient choice in many builds, Battlemaster having the most synergy by far for a 3-lvl dips (I made BM+Monk the base of my best control build ;)).

charlesk

2015-08-11, 08:55 AM

The other thing I find very lacking with regard to monks is any sort of magic items specific to the class. I actually asked our DM to homebrew an item with a chance to regenerate ki for our monk to use (we are near the end and are fairly high level and everyone else was getting a "cool item"... and there simply is nothing monk-specific in the DMG).

Ardantis

2015-08-11, 09:17 AM

It's also useful to have Darkness on a fighter-type chassis due to concentration economy. If the Lore Bard is summoning cobras (Giant Poisonous Snakes) or the Sorcerer is Animating Objects, the Shadow Monk can summon Darkness to let them take advantage of their Blindsight. Same thing goes for an Earth Elemental with its Tremorsense.

The monk usually has nothing better to do with his concentration (unless it's PWT time), so Darkness is pretty much a no-brainer in these situations. 2 ki is practically free.

Blindsight cannot see through magical darkness, including Darkness spells.

Daishain

2015-08-11, 09:22 AM

Blindsight cannot see through magical darkness, including Darkness spells.
1.) to my knowledge, this is not RAW, making this subject to DM interpretation.

2.) Concerning said interpretation, blindsight is described as being a factor of scent, hearing, and/or other senses that have jack all to do with one's eyeballs. As a result, darkness, magical or not, should have absolutely no impact. Spells like fog cloud or silence on the other hand might, but that is another consideration.

Ralanr

2015-08-11, 10:16 AM

Isn't staff of striking a monk item?

Or by class specific you mean, "can only be attuned by"? Cause most martial classes are in the regards if that's the requirement.

Dralnu

2015-08-11, 10:44 AM

I've been running a campaign for two PCs: a champion fighter and shadow monk. They started at level 6, currently 13.

I'd say that yes, the monk could use a little boost in damage. In my mind, the fighter should be doing superior damage, but in actual playtesting the damage gap has been much larger than it should be. The monk is hardly useless though, because stunning strike really is that good. Even my +5 CON monsters are going to get stunned eventually by failing that DC ~15 check, robbing them of their turn and making them easy targets. I can only imagine stunning strike being even stronger in larger groups, where more PCs can point their attacks on the stunned target.

Shadow Leap has also been amazing. The PC has been using it creatively both in and out of combat. It's a huge boon to mobility, letting the monk move incredible distances in a round and reach crazy places.

As for spells, both characters are human, so Darkvision is actually being used a lot. Darkness and occasionally Pass Without Trace see play too to great use. I don't think the PC has used Silence yet, though I think it's a good spell.

Defensively, they're a pain to hit, but at the cost of damage potential (which is already too low) and precious ki points. The fighter is certainly the better frontline, with more HP, full plate, and other little tricks (Indomitable?).

That reminds me: I'll give the monk a magic item that boosts unarmed strikes +1 and maybe +1 ki point. That should help things a little.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 10:46 AM

Isn't staff of striking a monk item?

Or by class specific you mean, "can only be attuned by"? Cause most martial classes are in the regards if that's the requirement.

This is true I suppose. I guess I think of the monk as being somewhat between martial and spellcaster classes, specifically thinking of the ki pool. Spellcasters have numerous ways of getting more spells they can cast each day, and monks have no way of getting ki back other than resting.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 10:55 AM

This is true I suppose. I guess I think of the monk as being somewhat between martial and spellcaster classes, specifically thinking of the ki pool. Spellcasters have numerous ways of getting more spells they can cast each day, and monks have no way of getting ki back other than resting.

which casters are you thinking of that have numerous ways of getting more spells?

warlocks recover on a short rest, just like monks, and are no better off.
wizards can recover a very small amount on a short rest, as can druids, and are much worse off as far as recovering resources is concerned.
sorcerers can blow sorcerer points, but since the only reason to even be a sorcerer is metamagic should be doing the exact opposite.
clerics and moon druid get no ways to restore spell slots at all.

as far as items, there isn't much there either. there's a pearl of power, and the warlock's pact rod that i can recall. am i missing something obvious?

so umm... honestly, as far as reovering resources goes, monks are pretty much fine.

as far as burst damage, well, their main job is to disrupt the enemy back line as far as i'm concerned. you don't need a huge amount of damage to pull that off, because you're typically attacking people that have lower defenses, especially HP, and you've got plenty of status conditions to inflict.

still, i suppose they could use a little more. one thing to bear in mind is that if they get anything that just increases their damage per attack, they benefit almost as much as a fighter because of how easy it is for them to get 4 attacks.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 11:07 AM

as far as items, there isn't much there either. there's a pearl of power, and the warlock's pact rod that i can recall. am i missing something obvious?

Wands, scrolls, staves, bards have instruments, etc. There are a lot of ways of supplementing basic spellcasting totals. Monks have nothing to supplement their ki pool, which is, let's face it, pretty limited. Especially in a campaign that doesn't have a lot of short rests.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 11:16 AM

there's a rather large difference between "item that can cast one thing" and "item that recovers spells". certainly, a wand of web is a useful thing to have, but it does not in any way recover spells. if you cast a hold person or a suggestion, the slot is gone and nothing you do with a wand is going to get it back.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 11:22 AM

Of course there's a difference. But there is a huge variety of magic items that give spellcasters additional spell options. Some offer multiple additional spells per day, which is a considerable benefit.

I never used the word "recover" originally. But because of how the monk works, an item that supplements ki or allows it to be extended or regenerated in some way is probably the best mechanical way of allowing a magic item to improve a monk aside from mundane "do more damage" options.

Even beyond this, there are several items that can, say, improve a high-level wizard's DCs. Is there anything that improves a monk's, other than a (very rare) ability tome?

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 11:48 AM

i'll agree that there are items that can increase a caster's DCs, but i will add that, in this edition at least, i don't think they should exist. in a system that boasts bounded accuracy, one of the worst things you could possibly do is make it so that the casters can push your saving throw off the d20. especially since in 5e, only attack rules use the natural 1/natural 20 rule.

that's right. if you can force a DC 21 saving throw on an enemy with a +0 modifier, they have literally no chance to make their saving throw. they can have advantage all they want and all the rerolls they may desire, but they will never make that save.

anyways, monks actually do have a single item that can boost their DCs. whichever shape of ioun stone it is that gives a higher proficiency bonus, monks can use that item, and since their DC is just as much based on proficiency bonus as any other class, it will increase their DC just as well as it will for any other class.

Ralanr

2015-08-11, 12:20 PM

charlesk

2015-08-11, 12:25 PM

This reminds me of a caster item I made, and why I see caster items being difficult to make without being too powerful.

Though there are a lot of caster only attunment items than say fighter, barbarian, or rogue only items.

Yeah this has made me realize it is true of the other martials as well.

I think I just noticed it more with monks because they are very reliant on their ki pool to be effective... much as casters are. Except at high levels a caster with no slots can arguably do more damage than a monk with no ki. This applies much less to classes like fighters and rogues which have potent at-will damage options.

Anyway, it's obviously up to the DM. If I DMed and someone wanted to play a monk -- ESPECIALLY a four-elements monk -- I would buff them somehow. And I think the lack of ki-related magic items is either an accidental omission or shows a lack of creativity.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 12:37 PM

monks with no ki can attack 3 times per round for 1d8+5 or 1d10+5 each time at high levels.

how is that less than a caster throwing 3d10 or 4d10 with no attribute bonus whatsoever?

monk damage is certainly not the highest, but it definitely isn't as bad as a typical caster.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 02:25 PM

Fair enough, I will concede that point on the math. They are better than a caster at at-will damage.

But they still don't do a lot of at-will damage, don't have a lot of burst damage, and they are on the front lines with relatively little tanking capability compared to other melees. Maybe a wizard only does 3d10 at-will, but he does it from the back row (or maybe flying and invisible) and he can seriously hurt you with his limited damage options before those run out.

I guess I have just never been that impressed with 5e monks RAW (with the exception of the first 6 levels of shadow monk). Maybe I just haven't seen a really good build yet.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 03:47 PM

their defenses include (at high levels) high AC, amazing mobility, amazing saves, and being in the back lines next to enemies that probably prefer ranged attacks (bad at point-blank) and saves (which you are amazing at).

charlesk

2015-08-11, 04:15 PM

Vogonjeltz

2015-08-11, 04:27 PM

all on a class that revolves around stealth. and somehow you have managed to convince yourself that not one of these are useful for setting up ambushes, sneaking around, or anything like that. did you even look up what these spells do before you dismissed them as useless?

also, the *only* spell that element monks get that isn't costing them spell level + 1 ki (compared to the shadow monk that pays spell level ki) is gust of wind. it isn't just a one-time deal. frankly, i half suspect the gust of wind cost to be a typo.

I think it's a stretch to say the class revolves around stealth...the subtype does, sort of, but not the class.

I think they're all of limited use, if not a completely useless boondoggle. And, amusingly, the Shadow monk can't see through darkness because darkvision is blocked by the spell. Pass without trace is niche, only really effective for not being in combat, it contributes next to nothing once combat has started and that level 3 shadow monk can't cast it 'and' darkness (in order to hide at all!). Darkness is only able to give a tactical advantage if your side (and only your side) can see through it. The only class likely to benefit from this is the Warlock. Finally, silence is useful vs casters, but worthless vs non-casters, making it also a niche ability.

In contrast the elements spells are by and large offensive, useful against basically any foe. Way of the Elements = Evocation Monk, Way of the Shadows = Illusionist monk.

Like the illusionist, the way of the shadow monk can be useful...sometimes, but primarily it's not in combat.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 04:32 PM

I'm with you on mobility and saves.

Not sure what a monk can do to the back lines that a ranger can't do better, especially with the right feat.

Unclear on high AC. In a low-magic campaign I suppose they can be competitive. In a high-magic campaign with folks running around with magical armor and shields, I am not seeing it.

Even with plain plate mail and a plain shield you are starting at 20, which is close to the best a monk can realistically achieve without specialized magic items.

in a high-magic campaign, the monk is also going to enjoy specialized items.

so in a low-magic campaign, the monk gets up to AC 20 and so do other melees (though the other melees have to give up on using two hands for weapons to get that, which generally reduces their offense to not much better than a monk; can't use polearm mastery, can't use great weapon mastery, can't use sharpshooter, can't use crossbow expert).

in a high magic campaign, the monk can get +2 from an item as well (plus potentially more from other magic items), which is again competitive unless the person we're comparing to is not using two hands for a weapon.

as to what a monk can do better to the back lines; they can force multiple con saves per round, up to 4. they can force the back lines' attention to right next to themselves, rather than targeting your own back lines. shadow monks can get past more easily and can cast silence or darkness, open hand monks can knock them prone or displace them (which can easily wreck line of sight) and can threaten instant death effects. if they can afford the mage slayer feat, they can trigger the 5 foot AoE abilities much better than a ranger as well.

monks are not so much about damage. they're about disrupting the enemy and being a real PITA to get rid of. if enemy wizards are throwing spells at you (which you generally can resist) and enemy archers are shooting arrows at you (which you can catch), that's a sign you're probably doing your job right.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 05:42 PM

Just as a note.. I am exploring this because I really want to be convinced that monks are good. They are the only class I've never really felt compelled to try, except for a shadow monk / rogue combo.

OP, let me know if this is too off-topic.

in a high-magic campaign, the monk is also going to enjoy specialized items.

so in a low-magic campaign, the monk gets up to AC 20 and so do other melees (though the other melees have to give up on using two hands for weapons to get that, which generally reduces their offense to not much better than a monk; can't use polearm mastery, can't use great weapon mastery, can't use sharpshooter, can't use crossbow expert).

A monk getting to 20 AC requires putting a lot of effort into raising a stat that is otherwise of little utility to most melees (wisdom) which means they have at least 3 stats they need to get very high to be effective. Even getting an AC 18 requires high dice rolls and probably ASIs. In contrast, any fighter or cleric can get an 18 AC by donning plate mail, even without a shield.

Take a barbarian in contrast, they get an AC boost from a score they would bump anyway, and resistance to physical damage (and potentially all damage) makes them far superior tanks. Plus 50% more HP per level. And they can use shields.

At best the monk is in the same general ballpark as other melees. "High AC" is not a strength compared to any melee but maybe a rogue.

as to what a monk can do better to the back lines; they can force multiple con saves per round, up to 4. they can force the back lines' attention to right next to themselves, rather than targeting your own back lines. shadow monks can get past more easily and can cast silence or darkness, open hand monks can knock them prone or displace them (which can easily wreck line of sight) and can threaten instant death effects. if they can afford the mage slayer feat, they can trigger the 5 foot AoE abilities much better than a ranger as well.

monks are not so much about damage. they're about disrupting the enemy and being a real PITA to get rid of. if enemy wizards are throwing spells at you (which you generally can resist) and enemy archers are shooting arrows at you (which you can catch), that's a sign you're probably doing your job right.

Yes, I know they can do stuff. I guess I just don't see how they do any of it -- except the shadow-jumping -- better than other classes that aren't better in other ways. I suppose some of this is the "casters vs. martials" endless controversy. But I don't see them as especially impressive even compared to other melees.

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 06:11 PM

it does not matter if wisdom is bad for other classes. it is good for a monk, and should probably be the second attribute maxed (you won't get max con generally speaking, but you should still be able to have pretty good con, which is generally good enough).

but yes, it does take a bit longer for the AC to come online. on the other hand, it takes a lot less time for the 4 attacks to come online than it does for anyone else (they get access to their second attack at level 1, their third attack at level 2, and their fourth attack at level 5), and conveniently as a result the time period where their AC is least impressive is also the time period where their offense is comparatively the most impressive. they still don't have very good burst damage, it is true, but again, it's not about damage... it's about disruption.

and i'm curious who it is that you envision forcing up to 4 saves per round on a single target better than a monk can.

MaxWilson

2015-08-11, 06:25 PM

monks with no ki can attack 3 times per round for 1d8+5 or 1d10+5 each time at high levels.

Also, four times per round if he is a high-level Shadow Monk. (Can attack using his reaction when an adjacent enemy is hit.)

I agree with the basic observation, that monks don't do much damage... but in my view that's not a problem because the monk's main job is to be a ninja, not a superhero. He scouts ahead and kills whoever needs to be killed, but he doesn't chew through the whole army.

Accordingly, monks work best at tables where splitting the party is allowed or encouraged. If the whole party always stays within 30' of each other, monks lose all their best advantages.

in a high magic campaign, the monk can get +2 from an item as well (plus potentially more from other magic items), which is again competitive unless the person we're comparing to is not using two hands for a weapon.

Well, sort of. With a magic weapon, a monk can get +X to-hit and damage on half of his attacks. Unarmed strikes won't be affected.

if enemy wizards are throwing spells at you (which you generally can resist) and enemy archers are shooting arrows at you (which you can catch), that's a sign you're probably doing your job right.

Yeah, this.

BTW, I haven't seen Empty Body mentioned much. At high levels, monks are more durable than barbearians, no concentration required, with insanely good saves on top and 5 Stunning Strikes per round. Isn't that good for something?

charlesk

2015-08-11, 07:13 PM

SharkForce

2015-08-11, 07:32 PM

most monsters have decent con saves. lots of monsters you'd find on the back lines... not so much. archmage: +1 con save. assassin: +2 con save. mage: +0 con save. aboleth: +2 con save. beholder: +4 con save. drow mage: +0 con save. drow priestess of lolth: +4 con save. mind flayer: +1 con save. none of those feature particularly awe-inspiring con saves.

now i dunno about your group, but if i'm in the back lines stunning the crap out of a beholder while the rest of the party deals with beholder cultists (and/or homebrew lensmen, gauth, etc) and my party is complaining that i'm not doing anything, i might find myself tempted to go for a bit of a walk and come back and see if they still think i'm not doing anything.

as a monk, you are best against the artillery. so get back there and make the artillery wish they had better infantry support.

Nifft

2015-08-11, 07:39 PM

I agree with the basic observation, that monks don't do much damage... but in my view that's not a problem because the monk's main job is to be a ninja, not a superhero. He scouts ahead and kills whoever needs to be killed, but he doesn't chew through the whole army.

Hmm. I think this means that an Elemental Monk would do better with Elemental powers that are more Ninja / Batman oriented and less Dragon Sorcerer area-damage.

charlesk

2015-08-11, 07:53 PM

Sorry, Sharkforce, we disagree greatly on the ability of monks -- again, other than shadow monks -- to be so immediately useful against the "back lines". If it's that easy for a monk to get there without shadow-hopping, then their front line isn't very good. Monks don't even have an effective way of dealing with issues such as invisible casters. And they are generally weak when they can't close to melee (flying creatures, etc.)

A good ranger or a warlock sniping the back lines safely from a distance is almost always a better option anyway. More damage, less chance of being damaged in return.

If harrassing the back ranks is all that non-shadow monks really have going for them in combat, it's no wonder many consider them lackluster.

AbyssStalker

2015-08-11, 08:45 PM

I think that the Elemental monks could use a larger selection of spells to use their ki on atleast, and could probably do with some love in other ways as well, but I can't really vouch if they are or are not given enough to work with, nobody in our group has used one yet.

I really like the idea of using shadow monks as mage-killers though, I have one (ridiculously fun, but intentionally unoptimized) Shadow Monk4 Tempest Cleric1 That that wears heavy armor and wields a battleaxe (I picture him to look like Golbez), I'm afraid I haven't gotten far with him as my group hasn't had many opportunities to play recently, but I can't wait to be ninja-porting my axe into many a horrified mage's face.

MeeposFire

2015-08-11, 11:46 PM

I think giving the elemental monk more cantrip/passive abilities that bring out the flavor/utility could really help. Then the elemental monk would be getting something that is always useful and which he may otherwise not get and could possibly spare more ki for using things like area effect spells which gives it a potential niche. For instance giving a passive ability to add an element to your unarmed attacks could help ramp up their basic damage which is something none of the other monks can do (they seem to be more focused on stealth and control elements). For utility you could have had an ability to use air that acts like mage hand or create objects of ice.

Citan

2015-08-12, 03:03 AM

A monk getting to 20 AC requires putting a lot of effort into raising a stat that is otherwise of little utility to most melees (wisdom) which means they have at least 3 stats they need to get very high to be effective. Even getting an AC 18 requires high dice rolls and probably ASIs. In contrast, any fighter or cleric can get an 18 AC by donning plate mail, even without a shield.

Yes, I know they can do stuff. I guess I just don't see how they do any of it -- except the shadow-jumping -- better than other classes that aren't better in other ways. I suppose some of this is the "casters vs. martials" endless controversy. But I don't see them as especially impressive even compared to other melees.
Hi! Let me jump into the discussion.

1. Who cares that WIS is not important for other classes? It's important for the monk, and THAT is what's important. Monk has no more (arguably less) MADness than Barbarian or Paladin. WIS is arguably even more important than DEX since it raises the DC of your Monk abilities which are why you play Monk in the first place (especially if you get a way to upgrade your chance to hit with weapon attack by multiclass or ally's spell).

2. What they can do, indeed most spellcasters can also do. Except that spellcasters are generally more frail, require some concentration, and need to select the right spells (which is very compelling for classes such as Sorcerer or Warlock). With a Monk, everyone knows exactly what he can pull off, every short rest. And Monk's mobility allows him to get quickly where he needs to be.

3. Didn't play high level Monk so no opinion on real defense efficiency, but on paper seems very strong. Also, you compare it with Platemail and Shield. Fair enough but... a) Natural armor = good in any situation (including being put in jail or other things), b) Natural armor = no weakness to Heat armor c) Natural armor = best mobility AND INITIATIVE, ability to hide, ability to carry, ability to pass as someone else... While Platemail requires high STR, so either passable DEX or MADness (and starting in specific classes or spending feat).

4. Monk abilities target physical stats for control where spells of similar (or better :)) effect target mental stats. Making the Monk very complementary to a control spellcaster (with that said, I'm far from knowing every monster so no idea on how often monsters have high WIS).

Monk seems a bit weak at first and boring because this class doesn't have the best at-will damage or smites. But it is in fact a powerful class, which just requires more tactical play than other because its resources drops quickly (too quickly imo especially for Elements). And arguably better to have than a Rogue for example in a melee party since its abilities profit everyone (giving advantage or secured movement).

And it synergizes very well with other classes when you aim for specific goals.

Malifice

2015-08-12, 08:09 AM

MaxWilson

2015-08-12, 10:33 AM

What I meant about wisdom is that monks have to put points into that instead of into Con, and they only have d8 to begin with. Their AC isn't superior to other melees and their HP are usually lower. They do have good saves and evasion.

Some good points, especially about whether the party splits or not. Monks do make excellent infiltrators. But how much of that really relies on the shadow variant abilities? The other monk options seem much less interesting except for flavor.

The stunning strikes are obviously among their best attributes, but ki is limited and most monsters have good con saves.

Good point. The Shadow Monk is (in my mind) so obviously the "best" monk[1] that I sometimes say "monk" when I actually mean "Shadow Monk."

Yes, ki is limited, but IME you don't want to spend ki most of the time--it's something you pull out when you need to nova. During normal combats, Monks rely on martial arts and/or missile weapons, so when everything goes pear-shaped and it becomes imperative to disable that roper nownownow before he eats the paladin, or to stun the beholder nownownow before he can disintegrate anybody--when an emergency happens the monk has plenty of ki to handle it. The chief thing Shadow Monks spend ki on IME in normal play is actually Pass Without Trace. My one Elemental Monk NPC normally doesn't spend it at all--only for emergency novas as described in this paragraph.

-Max

[1] "Best" in two senses: he has the best ki economy with lots of things to do that don't require much if any ki, such as casting Pass Without Trace and then turning invisible to go scouting, or shadow jumping; and he also has the most unique niche. I've never played an Open Hand monk but it looks like basically a different kind of tanky fighter, a role which my party fills in other, more effective ways; and the elemental monk is a less-tanky version with some AoE on top which would be best replaced by an Eldritch Knight with Fireball. But the Shadow Monk as a class is sneakier than anyone except maybe a Lore Bard who's specialized in being sneaky, especially in dark dungeons where ranged combat is inoperable. In my party, she's the indoor/underground scouting specialist, and no one but another Shadow Monk could take her place.

The Lore Bard will go with her on scouting missions because two is safer than one and because he has Perception expertise, but his defenses are a lot worse than hers and he can't break contact as easily, so the one time he scouted ahead a mere 150' of the party he nearly got munched by a chain worm (because it bypasses Stealth, so it just stunned him with its wail and started eating him), and he's also the party healer, so... anyway, he isn't allowed to scout ahead alone any more. But the Shadow Monk is.

They can run along walls and dash as a bonus action. With a huge move speed. Shadow monks can also teleport and elemental monks can fly. At high levels they gain invisibility etherealness and dimension door.

Invisibility, yes, via Empty Body. I don't know how monks could teleport or go ethereal though. At best a monk can Astral Projection himself via Empty Body, but that's a far cry from the flexibility of Etherealness. Also an elemental monk 11 can potentially Gaseous Form himself via Mist Stance, which isn't bad, but also leaves you a lot more vulnerable than Etherealness does.

Malifice

2015-08-12, 08:14 PM

Let's call a spade a spade though. It's plainly incorrect to say monks lack mobility options. Increased move speed, bonus action dash, and running along walls and other vertical surfaces are baked into the class. As are softer options like bonus action disengage. All available at low levels.

At higher levels, there are other options like invisibility and astral travel.

Each subclass adds to these options with fly, gaseous form, knocking foes back or prone, sanctuary effect, shadow jumping and more invisibility.

Monks are best placed to take advantage of 5es baked in spring attack, Move, bonus action dash and Attack at 5th level grants an 80' move and two attack stunning fist attack at 5th level. At 9th level it becomes 90' and the monk can run up walls on the way.

I see monks as a precision stunning fist delivery system for the party, causing havoc in the back lines while the front line fighters smash in through the enemy front line. Their job is to tie up and shut down the most dangerous foe in any encounter until the slower moving but harder hitting cavalry (fighter, Paladins and barbarians) arrive.

They also have the defences baked in to survive in that role.

As a secondary role they have a lot of battlefield control options to deal with mooks, without necessarily killing them outright with DPR.

Their only weakness is moderate DPR and almost total lack of nova damage tricks (quivering Palm at 17th is one of the few options). Over the first 5 levels they're more than comparable, but they do drop off quite quickly after 5th.

It's one of the reasons I encourage a 3 level battle master dip. The action surge and superiority dice not only add a bag of tricks to support the monk in his battlefield control role, but also give him a backup DPR spike up his sleeve to target foes that might be immune to stunning or the monks other tricks.

It also grants either duelling (useful for one handed weapons once the MA damage gets to 1d6) or archery (always useful to have a back up ranged option) and limited healing via second wind. You lose little - your MA dice goes to 1d10 and gain 17th level archetype features for monk. The extra ASI at 19th being the most painful.

Dralnu

2015-08-13, 12:49 AM

I agree that monks can be sweet battlefield control, but they can't hop behind enemy lines whenever they feel like it.

Keep in mind that Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Bonus UA, Flurry of Blows, and Shadow Leap all require a bonus action to use. If you leap behind enemy lines to punch the enemy wizard in the nuts, that's your bonus action for the turn. You've stunned the wizard, yes, but you've removed yourself from the safety of your tank and are likely to be focused by other enemies not in the tank's face. Your AC is good, but not Patient Defense-good, and your D8 HP isn't tank-level.

This can be a risky maneuver. Sometimes a good idea, but not always.

Also while I agree that Shadow Monk is really sweet, Open Hand is also quite good if you want to focus purely on combat. The extra battlefield control you get tacked on to FoB for free is amazing. That's especially important considering how many abilities monks already have vying for the bonus action. All the other abilities they get are amazing too.

I'd say Shadow and Open Hand are equally good, though I'd personally pick Shadow for more versatility.

SharkForce

2015-08-13, 12:58 AM

ideally, the enemy front lines will already be busy dealing with your own. of course, if they all fall back to you... next round you teleport/jump/run out (hopefully they'll have to dash to reach you) and your own front line is now right next to their back line anyways.

Malifice

2015-08-13, 01:55 AM

I agree that monks can be sweet battlefield control, but they can't hop behind enemy lines whenever they feel like it.

They have the best suite of mobility options in the game. Maybe 'not whenever they feel like it' but it's pretty hard to stop them getting where they need to be.

Like I said above. At 5th level they are (move 40') + (bonus action dash 40') + make two attacks with stunning fist at any time during that movement. They can jump over anyone on the way (thanks to doubled jump distance). The Mobility feet increases this to 50'+50' and mitigates the AoO problem.

When they hit 9th level, they can jump over people on the way, run along walls or up trees, and have a movement of 100' for the round plus delivering two attacks (with stunning fist).

Keep in mind that Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Bonus UA, Flurry of Blows, and Shadow Leap all require a bonus action to use. If you leap behind enemy lines to punch the enemy wizard in the nuts, that's your bonus action for the turn. You've stunned the wizard, yes, but you've removed yourself from the safety of your tank and are likely to be focused by other enemies not in the tank's face. Your AC is good, but not Patient Defense-good, and your D8 HP isn't tank-level.

That's why they get a raft of defensive abilities. Tons of flat out immunities, bonus action dodge and disengage, stoneskin, invisibility, gaseous form, astral projection, incorporealness for certain archetypes, proficiency in every save (with the ability to reroll) etc.

They leap in, inflict a precise attack to the enemy weak spot (caster types in particular) cause a **** load of chaos, and await the cavalry.

Also while I agree that Shadow Monk is really sweet, Open Hand is also quite good if you want to focus purely on combat. The extra battlefield control you get tacked on to FoB for free is amazing. That's especially important considering how many abilities monks already have vying for the bonus action. All the other abilities they get are amazing too.

OHM also get (late level) one of the few nova options in the Monk class (quivering palm). Combining the control of the OHM with a 3 level dip in BM Fighter makes for a fantastic battlefield controller.

Move a mile, punch your enemy in the dace, damage them, stun them with SF, knock them prone or back 15' as a OHM, and disarm them with a BM maneuver - all in the one hit.

For extra laughs pick his weapon up with your free 'object interaction' for the round; and yell out 'your move'.

Citan

2015-08-13, 07:44 AM

I agree that monks can be sweet battlefield control, but they can't hop behind enemy lines whenever they feel like it.

Keep in mind that Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Bonus UA, Flurry of Blows, and Shadow Leap all require a bonus action to use. If you leap behind enemy lines to punch the enemy wizard in the nuts, that's your bonus action for the turn. You've stunned the wizard, yes, but you've removed yourself from the safety of your tank and are likely to be focused by other enemies not in the tank's face. Your AC is good, but not Patient Defense-good, and your D8 HP isn't tank-level.

While I was away Malifice did a good job replying to your point. So I'll only add that "if really you are not trustul enough in pure Monk, Battlemaster, Rogue or even Ranger await you". :)
I personnally love BM 3 dip + Mobile feat as a Monk (but I love multiclassing as a principle anyways ^^). Use Evasive Manoeuver to break through enemy lines with very little chance of OA hit, stun/prone people with potential Precision Attack if needed then fall back without haste or danger. :)

Ralanr

2015-08-13, 08:03 AM

I tried straight shadow monk out once. The shadow jump ability was awesome.

Then I got mauled by a T-Rex in a bar fight.

charlesk

2015-08-13, 08:40 AM

Some interesting points made here about monks, thanks. I'm still not entirely convinced... especially about the non-shadow options... but they may be better than I thought.

I probably just need to see a good build in action, run by someone who knows the class well.

That said, monk still strikes me as much better as part of a multiclass in most cases than as a pure class. I can imagine it must be difficult for anyone who is into character optimization to play a shadow monk without dipping rogue at least.. they are sort of made for each other. :)

Malifice

2015-08-13, 01:07 PM

I tried straight shadow monk out once. The shadow jump ability was awesome.

Then I got mauled by a T-Rex in a bar fight.

That last line is why I love DnD.

Some interesting points made here about monks, thanks. I'm still not entirely convinced... especially about the non-shadow options... but they may be better than I thought.

I probably just need to see a good build in action, run by someone who knows the class well.

That said, monk still strikes me as much better as part of a multiclass in most cases than as a pure class. I can imagine it must be difficult for anyone who is into character optimization to play a shadow monk without dipping rogue at least.. they are sort of made for each other. :)

Mnk dips are generally mechanically pretty bad (unless you have some flavor youre going for like an unarmored 'kensai' style Fighter and just want unarmored defence, and splash of Ki for fun. A cleric can dip for unarmored defence too, but theyre generally mechanically better off just decking out in Full plate and callng it a day.

Compare three levels of Monk to three levels of Barbarian or Fighter. I know which one I would take (mechanically) any day of the week.

I was working on a spear wielding (lajatang) 'Sohei' build (Monk 14/ Paladin 6) to try and take advanatage of (proficiency in all saves + reroll + cha to all saves) and use Smite and hunters mark (vengance Paladin - avenging his masters death) with martial arts for a boost to damage. 6 levels of paladin is just enough to get you a horse too.

With hunters mark and duelling with the spear one handed it becomes (1d8+2+dex+spear+1d6) x 2 and (1d8+dex+1d6) x 2 (plus openhand and stunning fist shennanigans). You have 3 x 1sts and 2 x 2nds left to smite with.

I'm coming to the sad realisation that Paladin 2/ Cleric 4/ Monk 14 is probably better. Saves the dead level of paladin 5 (you already have extra attack), allows you to dump Cha to 13, nicw Wisdom synergy, and the Knowledge domain grants some nice features (and thematically fits). Also grants an extra 2nd and 2 3rd level spells for use with smites. You lose the Cha to saves (and the horse) though.

It's not mechanically strong, but pretty flavorful. I was considering making it a halfling for the luls (and weirdly, halfling make amazing monks in 5e). Hin fist probably.

Its tough trying to get a Monk up and running that does good damage past 5th. Dipping Fighter for action surge, duelling style for your attacks with 'monk weapons', and superiority dice is the best way to go. Going Vuman and dumping your feat on Magic Initiate (Warlock) for Eldritch blast (Oryuken!) and Hex has a lot of merit (particularly at low levels for 1d8+1d6+dex and 1d4+1d6+dex x 2 from 2nd level) too.

You should be looking to get your hands on a girdle of giant strength, and a magical 'monk weapon' asap though.

MaxWilson

2015-08-13, 03:00 PM

That said, monk still strikes me as much better as part of a multiclass in most cases than as a pure class. I can imagine it must be difficult for anyone who is into character optimization to play a shadow monk without dipping rogue at least.. they are sort of made for each other. :)

I dunno, for me monk is one of those classes that I have no desire whatsoever to multiclass. It has a decent capstone (start every fight with 4 ki for rerolls/stunning strike, or for Empty Body) and it has a solid level progression where you're gaining something good every level. Every level you multiclass delays something you care about (IMO): Shadow Jump, Diamond Soul and Empty Body being the standouts, plus of course the ASIs.

I honestly don't see what Rogue has to tempt you. You get an extra +3 or +4 to Stealth from Expertise (+6 at high levels), but a Shadow Monk's stealth is so insanely good already that he mostly only gets caught by things that bypass Stealth, like Intellect Devourers and (in my game) Black Puddings. You get Cunning Action, which is nice, but a Mobile Shadow Monk doesn't really need it because he's got a high movement speed and a busy bonus action already, and can Step of the Wind in emergencies. All Cunning Action does is save you ki. You get Sneak Attack for a minor damage boost. Overall, Rogue just isn't compelling to me compared to straight monk, because unlike Rogue, Monk is not a front-loaded class: it keeps getting better at high level.

Malifice

2015-08-13, 03:32 PM

I dunno, for me monk is one of those classes that I have no desire whatsoever to multiclass. It has a decent capstone (start every fight with 4 ki for rerolls/stunning strike, or for Empty Body) and it has a solid level progression where you're gaining something good every level. Every level you multiclass delays something you care about (IMO): Shadow Jump, Diamond Soul and Empty Body being the standouts, plus of course the ASIs.

I honestly don't see what Rogue has to tempt you. You get an extra +3 or +4 to Stealth from Expertise (+6 at high levels), but a Shadow Monk's stealth is so insanely good already that he mostly only gets caught by things that bypass Stealth, like Intellect Devourers and (in my game) Black Puddings. You get Cunning Action, which is nice, but a Mobile Shadow Monk doesn't really need it because he's got a high movement speed and a busy bonus action already, and can Step of the Wind in emergencies. All Cunning Action does is save you ki. You get Sneak Attack for a minor damage boost. Overall, Rogue just isn't compelling to me compared to straight monk, because unlike Rogue, Monk is not a front-loaded class: it keeps getting better at high level.

Rogue works really well actually.

The sneak attack is useful (it compensates for the loss of martial arts damage dice increase) and expertise in athletics or acrobatics is a godsend for Monks who pretend to be good at grappling or jumping. Adding the Hide action as a bonus action adds to a Monks versatilty, and at 5th level youre netting the awesome uncanny dodge ability for a pretty amazing boost to survivability.

In fact Shadow Monk/ Assasin is a fantastic combo. Assasin 6/ Shadow Monk 14 works brilliantly.

Swashbuckler combines well with Monk too (Cha boost to initiative - if a little MAD - sneak attack to anyone anywhere, and complete immunity to OA's if you attack them - hit or miss - first).

In fact - now that I mention UA, I remember the 'Mariner' fighting style. Yet another reason to dip Fighter. +1 to AC when not wearing heavy armor or using a shield (so always) AND you get a climb and swim speed equal to your base movement rate (so running, climbing AND swimming at 200 MPH?)

Sign every monk I ever play up to that fighting style thank you very much.

charlesk

2015-08-13, 03:52 PM

Well maybe again I am just lacking in experience in terms of seeing a really good monk in action. But it seems to me that shadow monk 6 is a natural breaking point. Putting another 8 or 10 levels into rogue (we never get to level 20 in our games) gives you a pretty substantial damage boost and still many monk-like features. Most of the monk abilities are defensive, and while I do see their value, I guess I find it hard to play a frontliner that doesn't do a lot of damage.

Someone I know designed a shadow monk 6 / arcane trickster 6 / sorcerer 3 that is pretty amazing.

I may have to force myself to play a pure monk sometime just to see what I can do with it. But being able to get advantage at will and NOT having sneak attack.. it just feels wrong somehow! :)

Vogonjeltz

2015-08-13, 04:00 PM

And I think the lack of ki-related magic items is either an accidental omission or shows a lack of creativity.

I always assumed it was a deliberate move to avoid niche items that become "must haves" for whatever class they're specifically for.

Then I got mauled by a T-Rex in a bar fight.

If that's not an obscure joke, how did the T-Rex get/fit inside the bar at all?

Ralanr

2015-08-13, 04:03 PM

If that's not an obscure joke, how did the T-Rex get/fit inside the bar at all?

Was a half-Orc wizard.

Nifft

2015-08-13, 04:25 PM

And I think the lack of ki-related magic items is either an accidental omission or shows a lack of creativity.

Yeah, something I'd like to see is ...

- If you Attune an item, and the item has spells on your list, then you are treated as though you have those spells prepared.
- Shadow Monks get a list of shadow and teleportation spells.
- Elemental Monks get a list of elemental spells.

Then, an Elemental Monk could use a Staff of Fire or whatever and get more use out of it than just using up its charges, since she could spend Ki points to cast spells from it.

MaxWilson

2015-08-13, 04:30 PM

Rogue works really well actually.

The sneak attack is useful (it compensates for the loss of martial arts damage dice increase) and expertise in athletics or acrobatics is a godsend for Monks who pretend to be good at grappling or jumping. Adding the Hide action as a bonus action adds to a Monks versatilty, and at 5th level youre netting the awesome uncanny dodge ability for a pretty amazing boost to survivability.

Good points. I was thinking of a rogue dip, not a full-on rogue multiclass, and I hadn't considered Expertise in anything but Stealth. I still am not tempted to multiclass to Rogue because it doesn't help my monk out with her primary role (intel gathering), but I can at least see why someone else would be. You'd be a very late bloomer though.

Well maybe again I am just lacking in experience in terms of seeing a really good monk in action. But it seems to me that shadow monk 6 is a natural breaking point. Putting another 8 or 10 levels into rogue (we never get to level 20 in our games) gives you a pretty substantial damage boost and still many monk-like features. Most of the monk abilities are defensive, and while I do see their value, I guess I find it hard to play a frontliner that doesn't do a lot of damage.

Someone I know designed a shadow monk 6 / arcane trickster 6 / sorcerer 3 that is pretty amazing.

I may have to force myself to play a pure monk sometime just to see what I can do with it. But being able to get advantage at will and NOT having sneak attack.. it just feels wrong somehow! :)

In my experience with pure shadow monks, the "advantage in melee at will" feature of Shadow Jump is less something you deliberately exploit than a consolation prize for not having your bonus action available for Martial Arts/Patient Defense/etc.

A Rogue 8 with Shadow Monk 6 bolted on seems, to me at least, as if it would be better with Druid 6 or Ranger 6 bolted on instead. In the Druid case you get a nasty, nasty surprise attack in the form of a giant swarm of cobras/wolves/giant owls that can grapple the enemy and drop him from 300' up. Speaking of Sneak Attack, you'll also have an ally adjacent to any target you wish. In the ranger case you get up to 4 attacks per round and Archery style access. In both cases you have access to Pass Without Trace, which boosts your Stealth through the stratosphere. You lose out on Shadow Jump and some extra movement, plus Stunning Strike, but a Shadow Monk 6 doesn't really have a lot of ki to blow on combat anyway, and Shadow Jump, while fun, is not better than Wildshape when it comes to sneaking. Maybe I'm a little bit overly-insistent on the whole "sneaking" thing--maybe you're trying to optimize for something else, like combat--but that's how I see Shadow Monks anyway. If you went all the way up to Shadow Monk 11 you'd get concentration-free invisibility while in the dark, which combined with Shadow Jump is better than wildshape... but you're not going that far.

The monk's best defensive abilities kick in at level 14+, so you won't get any of those.

BladeWing81

2015-08-27, 12:06 PM

The issue with the elemental monk is that it's just a plain monk that sometimes uses 1 spell on the boss encounters becuase the monk uses his normal Ki abilities like FoB, step of the wind, Patient defense and stunning strikes which use up their small pool of ki points leaving him with no spell to cast.

I'm surprised that the designers didn't see this and added something to the elemental monk like:

Focused mind:
when you choose the way of the four elements tradition at 3rd level, you focus you mind to increase your spirit in combat. you add your wisdom modifier to you ki points
With that at 3rd level with Wis=16 your ki point go from 3 to 6, at lvl 6 when you get your next elemental spell you have 9 ki points. with this you are assured you can at least cast 2 spells on the boss encounters without breaking the game.

I would also note that the existing spells available are really limited and the elemental evil supplement added nothing to the list wich is just a wasted opportunity.
the elemental monk is not as good on the initial lvls like the other two traditions which inmediately give out great abilities on lvl 3 that don't require extra ki or at least their cost is not as high. but when you can get stoneskin and fly latter on THEN it gets interesting

Flashy

2015-08-27, 12:35 PM

BladeWing81

2015-08-27, 03:59 PM

They have about the same spellcasting as a blade pact warlock, only with a lot more flexibility. Approximately two spells a short rest for most of the low to mid levels.

Here is the breakdow of each tradition from when you first get them on lvl 3

Way of the open hand:
your flurry of blow strikes get to impose one of 3 effects with no extra charge when they hit
-Knock prone
-push 15 feet away
-stop their reactions

Way of the shadow:
you get 4 spells that cost 2 ki each and minor ilusion cantrip with no cost:
-Darkness
-darkvision
-pass without trace
-silence
-minor ilusion

Way of the four elements:
you get:
-elemental attunement (elemental prestidigitation)
-one spell to choose from a list of 7 total (the rest require a minimum lvl)

anybody else see something really weird here?
the tradition itself has the least options.
I really feel it needs some changes, either a way to get more ki in the starting or mid lvls (which I think all of them should have) or at least add one more spell to select on lvl 3.

Mato

2015-08-27, 06:13 PM

anybody else see something really weird here?Yeah, you partially summarized to make a partial point.

Way of the Open Hand
3rd level: push them 15ft away, knock them prone (aka half speed), and stop reactions (aka if pushing them away won't work) or in other wards three ways to do the same thing.
6th: +50% increase with the self healing die expenditure.
11th level: sanctuary.
17th level: spend two actions to deal 10d10 damage, so about half of everyone else's damage.
Very few options and has the least amount of damage addition, overall the worst path.

Way of the Shadow
3rd level: you can cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, silence, or minor illusion.
6th level: bonus action can be used to teleport through shadow, granting an advantage on an attack roll.
11th level: you can cast invisibility.
17th level: attacking a nearby ally provokes an AoO from you.
Very stealth based. It's front loaded, well made, and a fan favorite since it is a solid choice for a stealth role and it can help the party's stealth.

Way of the Four Elements
3rd level: Learn two spells/effects, one is probably Attunement which can be used to solve almost any adventure-related problem.
6th level: Learn a 3rd spell/effect.
11th level: learn a 4th one.
17th level: learn a 5th one.
It gives a much wider range of options, including area attacks and damage over time for offense and self buffs like flight for utility or stoneskin for defense. It also has gaseous form to greatly enhance stealth allowing it to enter any medieval structure which is kind of the summery of the entire shadow path even if it's a bit less effective in it. And it also has the ability to reshape the environment such as near-instant spiked floors, pillars of water to float on, and other such headache inducing shenanigans for your DM.

MaxWilson

2015-08-27, 11:03 PM

11th level: you can cast invisibility.

Even better, you can become invisible (in dim light/darkness) without casting anything. I.e. no concentration cost, stacks with PWT.

BladeWing81

2015-08-28, 08:18 AM

Yeah, you partially summarized to make a partial point.

It gives a much wider range of options, including area attacks and damage over time for offense and self buffs like flight for utility or stoneskin for defense. It also has gaseous form to greatly enhance stealth allowing it to enter any medieval structure which is kind of the summery of the entire shadow path even if it's a bit less effective in it. And it also has the ability to reshape the environment such as near-instant spiked floors, pillars of water to float on, and other such headache inducing shenanigans for your DM.

I agree with you that the tradition becomes extremely useful and I would say it becomes better than the other two at some point becuase of the utilty spells but those come in on lvl 11.I specifically mentioned the starting levels because that's the issue for me, the starting levels for the other two traditions have more options and are incredibly useful throughout all of the levels right from the start becuase they synergize with your normal monk abilities.

Your point is: "Way of the four elements gets better... 8 levels after you chose the tradition"
It's like if you were 12 years old and your friends get bicycles and your parents get you skates but they promise that when you turn 18 you're gonna get a Harley, well that's AWESOME!....... but I'm stuck with skates on the sidewalk for the next 6 years now.:smallfrown:

ruy343

2015-08-28, 01:03 PM

So, I'm (finally) back, and I have an update on my opinion.

If you're playing a class to deal a ton of damage, don't play a monk. No matter what path you choose, you will not be able to get the damage you wish for with a monk. Even the Way of the Four Elements monk, with the Fist of Unbroken Air at max ki expenditure can only deal 6d10 damage at high levels (5d10 right now). That pales in comparison to what a Great Weapon fighter can unleash every turn (our great weapon master fighter really unloads every turn).

However, the plethora of other useful abilities makes the monk definitely worth picking. At the moment, with a standard-array character, I have an AC of 18, which is pretty good. I also can behave as a Swiss army knife with my ability to use elemental attunement along with my other class features (like immunity to poison/disease - best thing ever at high levels, some diseases are nasty!).

I struggle to land stunning strikes, because a lot of the enemies that are important enough to warrant a shutdown with 3 ki points are big baddies who have a high constitution score. However, when I do land it, the fighter and rogue in our party appreciate it greatly.

The biggest thing for me, though, is how well I can synergize with other party members. It's important to remember that although your buddy may be rolling the sneak attack damage dice, you were the one who spent a ki point to dodge that allows you to be safely adjacent to the target and give him that opportunity for the sneak attack dice. Although the fighter rolled 3 hits and unleashed 70+ damage, you were the one who used a stunning strike to ensure those hits got through. Although the wizard cast fireball to severely damage the enemy, you were the one who could stand fearlessly on the front lines because of evasion/dodge.

I still don't get to use my ki abilities from my specialty often, largely because the uses in the martial arts description are so good, but every once in a while I can cast shatter, gust of wind, fist of unbroken air, or gaseous form with great effect.

Do I feel a bit useless sometimes? By myself, yes. Monks aren't the best for solo adventuring or damage dealing. However, they work very well with others, and they're great for imposing status effects on opponents (and on myself), and that makes my character worthwhile. No matter what monk path you choose, you're not going to have the damage output of the fighter or the rogue, but you can significantly increase their capabilities.

TL;DR: The 4 elements monk is still a monk, and that's a great benefit to any team. However, way of the 4 elements monk's abilities don't get used as often as you might hope, and that's OK. If you're envisioning playing a firebender from Avatar, you won't get that. However, you can every once in a while use an ability that changes things for everyone, but that's not as useful as your everyday ability to take actions in the heat of combat and avoid getting hit with a bonus action dodge, along with your suite of other abilities that make monks great.

MaxWilson

2015-08-28, 01:35 PM

Monks aren't the best for solo adventuring

I have found that Shadow Monks are quite good for solo adventuring. What they can't kill (ideally with arrows but if necessary with stunning strikes) they can generally run from or hide from, and Empty Body at 14th level is superb for someone without any backup. What makes you think they're bad for soloing?

I'd say that Shadow Monk, Lore Bardlock, Necromancer, and Ranger/Assassin are my favorite builds for solo adventuring. (Three of the four are stealthy.) Eldritch Knight Sharpshooter isn't bad either but is narrow enough in his niche that I'd be nervous taking one out solo.

ShikomeKidoMi

2015-08-28, 01:58 PM

Yeah, you partially summarized to make a partial point.
Way of the Open Hand
[I]3rd level: push them 15ft away, knock them prone (aka half speed), and stop reactions (aka if pushing them away won't work) or in other wards three ways to do the same thing.

No, similar but different things. Knocking them prone is a lot handier if you have a melee rogue with you, for example.

Or you can stack them, knock them prone with one attack and then send them 15 feet back with the next.

And given that these effects are not resistible at all, it would be worth it even if it was only the prone one.

coredump

2015-08-28, 04:58 PM

No, similar but different things. Knocking them prone is a lot handier if you have a melee rogue with you, for example.

Or you can stack them, knock them prone with one attack and then send them 15 feet back with the next.

And given that these effects are not resistible at all, it would be worth it even if it was only the prone one.

What do you mean they are not resistible? They get a save before being prone or pushed.

djreynolds

2015-08-29, 02:25 AM

PoeticDwarf

2015-08-29, 06:22 AM

Yeah, you partially summarized to make a partial point.

Way of the Open Hand
3rd level: push them 15ft away, knock them prone (aka half speed), and stop reactions (aka if pushing them away won't work) or in other wards three ways to do the same thing.
6th: +50% increase with the self healing die expenditure.
11th level: sanctuary.
17th level: spend two actions to deal 10d10 damage, so about half of everyone else's damage.
Very few options and has the least amount of damage addition, overall the worst path.

Way of the Shadow
3rd level: you can cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, silence, or minor illusion.
6th level: bonus action can be used to teleport through shadow, granting an advantage on an attack roll.
11th level: you can cast invisibility.
17th level: attacking a nearby ally provokes an AoO from you.
Very stealth based. It's front loaded, well made, and a fan favorite since it is a solid choice for a stealth role and it can help the party's stealth.

Way of the Four Elements
3rd level: Learn two spells/effects, one is probably Attunement which can be used to solve almost any adventure-related problem.
6th level: Learn a 3rd spell/effect.
11th level: learn a 4th one.
17th level: learn a 5th one.
It gives a much wider range of options, including area attacks and damage over time for offense and self buffs like flight for utility or stoneskin for defense. It also has gaseous form to greatly enhance stealth allowing it to enter any medieval structure which is kind of the summery of the entire shadow path even if it's a bit less effective in it. And it also has the ability to reshape the environment such as near-instant spiked floors, pillars of water to float on, and other such headache inducing shenanigans for your DM.

You say an open hand level 17 monk uses two actions to deal 10d10 damage, in fact he uses two actions to do one round normal damage and one round 10d10 or instant 0hp, not just 10d10 by using 2 actions, way of the open hands level 3 and 6 features are for combat and maybe boring, but it makes you a better fighter. Open hand monk is like a stronger champion.

BladeWing81

2015-08-31, 08:49 AM

However, the plethora of other useful abilities makes the monk definitely worth picking. At the moment, with a standard-array character, I have an AC of 18, which is pretty good. I also can behave as a Swiss army knife with my ability to use elemental attunement along with my other class features (like immunity to poison/disease - best thing ever at high levels, some diseases are nasty!).

This is what I love about the class, I use a ton of combat tricks on the battlefield that help me and my party win battles and survive at the same time, being able to give two attacks removing a small enemy and stun or use dodge in the same turn to avoid damage and lock nasty mages to allow our rogues and warriors to bring the pain is a thing of beauty.

I still don't get to use my ki abilities from my specialty often, largely because the uses in the martial arts description are so good, but every once in a while I can cast shatter, gust of wind, fist of unbroken air, or gaseous form with great effect.

this is what I don't like about this specific tradition this hits the nail in the head, the class is awesome but because of the limited ki you rarely get to actually BE an elemental monk.

TL;DR: The 4 elements monk is still a monk, and that's a great benefit to any team. However, way of the 4 elements monk's abilities don't get used as often as you might hope, and that's OK. If you're envisioning playing a firebender from Avatar, you won't get that. However, you can every once in a while use an ability that changes things for everyone, but that's not as useful as your everyday ability to take actions in the heat of combat and avoid getting hit with a bonus action dodge, along with your suite of other abilities that make monks great.

I agree 100% of what you mention here the monk in general is awesome any way you slice it but this tradition lacks the same utility as the other two in the initial levels, Forget the lack of options for spells or the fact that you get only 1 spell per monastic tradition feature, this tradition needs a way to get more ki since it's the one that needs it the most.
To me this is the frustrating part, "way of the 4 elements monk's abilities don't get used as often as you might hope". which is ridiculous because open hand gets to use it's abilities whenever the monk uses flurry of blow, which means almost all the time. shadow monks can use their abilities to set up great ambushes at the start of most battles and when roleplaying requires stealth and cunning, basically making this tradition useful munerous times but elemental monks uses his elemental spells at best two times during boss figths which basically means very rarely.

Malifice

2015-08-31, 09:16 AM

What do you mean they are not resistible? They get a save before being prone or pushed.

Not when stunned they dont.

They automatically fail all Dex and Str saves.

ruy343

2015-08-31, 01:53 PM

To me this is the frustrating part, "way of the 4 elements monk's abilities don't get used as often as you might hope," which is ridiculous because open hand gets to use it's abilities whenever the monk uses flurry of blow, which means almost all the time. shadow monks can use their abilities to set up great ambushes at the start of most battles and when roleplaying requires stealth and cunning, basically making this tradition useful

Bear in mind, though, that flurry (or your standard 3rd attack) costs a bonus action, meaning that a flurrying monk cannot dodge. You might find that you can get away with flurrying all the time with your DM, but I'm afraid that I usually can't, since we go up against monsters that can floor you in 3 hits or so (or enough mooks that dodging is really, really worth it). That may just be my DM's style, but it's important to remember that were I to be playing an open-hand monk, I would only have been able to benefit from that class feature (from flurrying) twice so far after three sessions of play. Often, using other abilities for my bonus actions (disengage, dodge, dash) are more useful than flurrying. Perhaps I'm too conservative, but it fits the character better to be, you know, wise about placement and less worried about dealing damage.

Granted, I might have flurried more if I was playing an open-hand monk, as it would have been more enticing, but I also might have been knocked out more often. It's a tradeoff, I guess. But I've used my 4-elements powers quite effectively thus far, so I can't say that I'm disappointed either.

Being able to use ki powers at higher levels for just one additional ki point is also pretty great, just Super Sayan

Malifice

2015-08-31, 10:27 PM

Bear in mind, though, that flurry (or your standard 3rd attack) costs a bonus action, meaning that a flurrying monk cannot dodge.

Enter action surge. Dodge then move to enemy then (attack+flurry).

Fighter/monks rock.

BladeWing81

2015-09-01, 08:38 AM

Bear in mind, though, that flurry (or your standard 3rd attack) costs a bonus action, meaning that a flurrying monk cannot dodge. You might find that you can get away with flurrying all the time with your DM, but I'm afraid that I usually can't, since we go up against monsters that can floor you in 3 hits or so (or enough mooks that dodging is really, really worth it). That may just be my DM's style, but it's important to remember that were I to be playing an open-hand monk, I would only have been able to benefit from that class feature (from flurrying) twice so far after three sessions of play. Often, using other abilities for my bonus actions (disengage, dodge, dash) are more useful than flurrying. Perhaps I'm too conservative, but it fits the character better to be, you know, wise about placement and less worried about dealing damage.

Granted, I might have flurried more if I was playing an open-hand monk, as it would have been more enticing, but I also might have been knocked out more often. It's a tradeoff, I guess. But I've used my 4-elements powers quite effectively thus far, so I can't say that I'm disappointed either.

Being able to use ki powers at higher levels for just one additional ki point is also pretty great, just Super Sayan

You're probably right in that respect to not using flurry of blow that often but I imagen that is happening more now because of your level bracket.
On my side, ever since I got flurry of blows on lvl 2 I use it at least twice per play session when there is combat because we also have a warrior and an off again on again cleric that allows me to get in the fight with a little more bravery. On level 3 If I have had Open palm that transalates to a minimum of 4 chances to use the open palm abilities on enemies. on the other hand, I choosed "fist of unbroken air" (rasengan to my D&D party) and have used it exactly 5 times since then. don't get me wrong, every time I've used it, it was epic because it was on an enemy with either low STR (Magic users) or on a boss that got disadvantage on the saving throw thanks to our bard or my stunning strike. But 4 times minimum per play session and 5 times total is a really big difference on what you can do between monastic traditions.

I don't know, I'm probably wrong but maybe giving a little more Ki points (IE using the WIS moddifier) and two spells only on the third level when you get the monastic tradition would be a great way to improve this tradition on the initial levels giving more of an oportunity to use the tradition with more options but would not break the game like some people will probably think.:smallbiggrin:

Mato

2015-09-01, 02:43 PM

Even the Way of the Four Elements monk, with the Fist of Unbroken Air at max ki expenditure can only deal 6d10 damage at high levels (5d10 right now). That pales in comparison to what a Great Weapon fighter can unleash every turn (our great weapon master fighter really unloads every turn).Everything in the game pales compared to a fighter but take the 4-ways monk using fangs has 1d6+1d10+str(4) & four attacks per round, that's 52 damage at the 6th level or +50% more than your example even through it's fourteen levels earlier into the game.

And the ki limitation only applies to spells. Unbroken air and water whip have no such limitation, they could potentially deal up to 23d10 if you wish you inefficiently burn your all of your ki in one attack.

Even better, you can become invisible (in dim light/darkness) without casting anything. I.e. no concentration cost, stacks with PWT.It's nice, but don't forget it's completely replaced by the 18th level ability every monk gets.

You say an open hand level 17 monk uses two actions to deal 10d10 damage, in fact he uses two actions to do one round normal damage and one round 10d10 or instant 0hp.Perhaps I was misleading in my quick summer, but 10d10 averages 55 damage (see above and remember lv6 vs lv17 here), the save DC is three lower than any full caster's at that point, and it's also necrotic which means undead/angels/devils/demons have resistance or immunity against it even further decreasing it's effectiveness without an option to use another damage type.

BladeWing81

2015-09-02, 12:06 PM

I still don't get to use my ki abilities from my specialty often, largely because the uses in the martial arts description are so good, but every once in a while I can cast shatter, gust of wind, fist of unbroken air, or gaseous form with great effect.

TL;DR: The 4 elements monk is still a monk, and that's a great benefit to any team. However, way of the 4 elements monk's abilities don't get used as often as you might hope, and that's OK. If you're envisioning playing a firebender from Avatar, you won't get that. However, you can every once in a while use an ability that changes things for everyone, but that's not as useful as your everyday ability to take actions in the heat of combat and avoid getting hit with a bonus action dodge, along with your suite of other abilities that make monks great.

I think I might be thinking this the wrong way, maybe what the tradition needs is more sinergy with the rest of the basic Monk abilities at least in the initial levels where your spells arent used that much, why not give elemental qualities to our punches for an extra ki point like the way open hand monk uses his flurry of blows to add some combat tricks AND one spell? after that maybe just adding some more spell options for the subsequent levels.

when you choose This subclass the changes I would add to the elemental monk would be:

from:
Way of the Four Elements
3rd level: Learn one spells/effects and elemental attunement.
6th level: Learn a 2nd spell/effect.
11th level: learn a 3rd spell/effect.
17th level: learn a 4th spell/effect.

To:
Way of the Four Elements
3rd level:
your flurry of blow strikes get one of 4 elemental abilities for 1 extra ki point.
-your punches hits up to two adjacent targets and add an extra 1d6 fire damage
-your punches hit a target up to 10ft away and an extra 1d6 force damage (air)
-your punches hit an extra 1d6 slash damage and his speed is reduced by half (water/cold)
-your punches hit an extra 1d6 force damage and the target is pushed 5 ft. (earth)
Learn one spell
6th level: Learn a 2nd spell/effect.
11th level: learn a 3rd one.
17th level: learn a 4th one.

these are just up the top of my head and could be tweaked to become scalable when you spend more ki points, when you scale your martial arts dice or when you reach the 6th,11th,17th levels.