New here. Can you guys help me with my Deadly Fist?

[Voidstar]

Hey all, been browsing the forums for guides and the like. I just feel really stuck on how to develop this Deadly Fist I'm going to be playing in an upcoming campaign.

Level 3, here's what I have so far:

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 13
WIS 20
CHA 8

AC 19
MELEE +9 or +7/+7, 1d6+7
CMB
CMD 16
FORT +4
REF +6
WILL +8

INIT +3

FEATS AND BLADE SKILLS
1 Combat Expertise
B IUS
B Flurry of Fists
T Focused Offense
3

TRAITS - DRAWBACK
T Threatening Defender
T Heavy Hitter
D Doubt
T

So. I've thought about multiclassing 1 in Monk, or 1 in Aegis, or 1 in both(?) to get some nifty 1 drop bonuses from them. My main concern with this class is damage output and keeping my defenses up at the same time. Plus, I have no "plan" after level 3 and was hoping I could get help with that as well, so I can see the actual path and do so while alleviating my concerns with damage/survivability.

I'm 100% open to any suggestion as far as stats, feats, bladeskills, etc!

[rockdeworld]

So far it looks like a standard WisFist build, and looks fine. The fact that you already have Focused Offense is great. If you aren't reading this Soulknife guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203014-3-P-Sharpening-the-Mind-A-Guide-to-the-Pathfinder-Soulknife), it might give you some more ideas for planning your build.

Monk and Aegis both improve your defensive without adding much to offense. I can't recommend Aegis for that reason and because Aegis doesn't look like it synergizes well with 3 levels of soulknife. A 1-level dip in Monk wouldn't be unreasonable though. The Sohei monk archetype lets you act during the surprise round without losing anything, so would be a good choice for a 1-level dip. Unfortunately the Maneuver Master and Tetori archetypes both force you to use monk level instead of BAB for CMB, and that's bad for you.

Keep in mind that adding levels in Soulknife grants you automatic weapon enhancements. Here's some level-by-level statistics:
At level 6, with a +2 enhancement applied to your fists + the Full Enhancement and Improved Flurry blade skills, your full attack looks like this:
+11/+11/+6/+6 fist (1d6+7 damage), where 11 = 6 BAB + 5 WIS + 2 enhancement - 2 Flurry
Against an average AC 19, that means your average damage per round is 24
So you'd kill an HP 70 monster in 3 rounds

On the other hand, with the Frost and Shock enhancements + the Full Enhancement and Improved Flurry blade skills, your full attack looks like this:
+9/+9/+4/+4 fist (3d6+5 damage), where 9 = 6 BAB + 5 WIS - 2 Flurry
Against an average AC 19, that means your average damage per round is 31
So you'd kill an HP 70 monster in 3 rounds, and usually get to attack someone else with the last few attacks

At level 11, with +3 Holy fists + the Greater Flurry blade skill + 2 Wis from levels, your full attack looks like this:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8 fist (3d6+9 damage), where 18 = 11 BAB + 6 WIS + 3 enhancement - 2 Flurry
Against an average AC 25, that means your average damage per round is 56
So you'd kill an HP 145 monster in 3 rounds
*+2 Holy Vicious Fists give 63 average damage, and if you have DR 5 from some source, you basically ignore the drawback of Vicious

At level 16, with +5 Holy Vicious fists + the Improved Enhancement blade skill + 4 Wis from levels, your full attack looks like this:
+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 fist (5d6+12 damage), where 26 = 16 BAB + 7 WIS + 5 enhancement - 2 Flurry
Against an average AC 31, that means your average damage per round is 102
So you'd kill an HP 240 monster in 3 rounds, and usually get to attack someone else with the last few attacks
*On a side note, your last iterative attack (at +11) adds a whopping 2 damage per round, while the first (at +26) adds 25.

A 1-level monk dip pushes all these stats back by 1 level, and so lowers damage per round because average AC of monsters goes up.


For better or worse, you're sortof locked into Flurrying to deal damage, because unarmed strikes can't be dual-weilded and only deal 1d6. Unfortunately, for Psychic Strike to be viable you need both Dual Imbue and Powerful Strikes, which requires at minimum 4 more levels of Soulknife.

I recommend the following Blade Skills:
4: Full Enhancement (for flurrying) Edit: I was wrong, see below. Take Combat Slide here instead
6: Improved Flurry
8: Combat Slide (for making full attacks)
10: Reaching Blade (reach is king in melee - though you sacrifice Wis to attack/damage it's better than not hitting at all)
12: Improved Enhancement
14: Greater Flurry - yes, this is later than 10 like I assumed in the stats above, but it's ok because the last attack only added 4 average damage per round (as opposed to 10 from the first - that's the effect of such low iterative attack bonus). But by level 16, that improves to 19 damage per round.

Oh, and to improve your defense: buy good defensive items. Your weapon sortof levels up on its own (though a Headband of Wisdom will improve it too). Take a 1-level dip in monk if you really want Wis to AC and better saves, but you don't need it to have reasonable defense - you already have a d10 hit die, and access to medium armor and shields. That doesn't make you a tank, but you can be a striker.

[Voidstar]

Thanks for your reply Rock.

Can you explain to me why you selected Full Enhancement? I think I'm confused on how it relates strongly to unarmed attacks and flurry.

Also, I was thinking about 1) 1 level in Monk and go without armor for AC bonus or 2) Picking up Focused Defense to keep wearing medium armor. Is there a better alternative? Right now I'm feeling pretty vulnerable as things stand.

Lastly, I have absolutely no idea what Feats to take. I have combat expertise, but beyond that I'm drawing a hard blank.

[the_archduke]

If you are thinking Aegis, why not 3 levels and then go Metaforge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/metaforge)

[the_archduke]

To expand my thoughts, Aegis can also give you offense. Increased size, powerful build and augmented weapon all increase your damage die. You also can boost strength, dexterity and constitution with Brawn, Nimble and Hardy.

[rockdeworld]

My pleasure. I actually had to edit the stats because I forgot Focused Offense adds Wis to damage. You'd deal a lot more than I first posted, which is now reflected above.

I just realized I was mistaken about Full Enhancement - you don't need it with flurrying (just TWFing). You can ignore that.

I also edited my post to talk about defense at the end, but I'll go a bit more in depth here.
At level 3, with your stats, you should have about 30 HP and 13 AC before armor. You can can afford Agile Breastplate and a Heavy Wooden/Steel shield for 21 AC. Monster attack bonuses are 4-6 at CR 3 (and less if there's a bunch of lower-CR enemies), so you're getting hit about 30% of the time for 13 damage. That means that, on average, it'll take 8 attacks to kill you. Since you can kill them in 3-ish attacks, you're fine - you'll take about 13 damage per encounter. Your Will save is exceptional, and your Reflex save is great, so you don't need to worry about Confusion or Fireballs. Your Fortitude is low, but that's to be expected - don't get poisoned if you can help it.

As your levels go up, you don't have to purchase weapon improvements, save Headbands of Wisdom (which you should get). So you have more money to invest in defense than regular characters. Magic armor/shields, rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor, and eventually rings of Blinking will all keep you alive.

Feats: I actually don't recommend using Combat Expertise if you can help it, because it takes away from your offense, and killing things is usually better than defending against them. Here's some suggestions:
-Psionic Meditation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/psionic-meditation-psionic) - take it take it take it take it take it (Focused Offense and Reaching Weapon both require psionic focus)
-Improved Initiative - always good
-Toughness - if you absolutely must have more HP, the PF version isn't terrible
-Lunge - reach is king in melee, especially if you want to make full attacks
-Step Up - helps you make full attacks
-Blind-Fight - reducing miss penalties is always good


To expand my thoughts, Aegis can also give you offense. Increased size, powerful build and augmented weapon all increase your damage die. You also can boost strength, dexterity and constitution with Brawn, Nimble and Hardy.
I did not know that and retract my previous statement about Aegis being just defensive. It still looks like losing 3 levels hurts, but increasing the damage die 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6 isn't bad.

[Sayt]

I have some advice which is conditional on your GM's interpretation of Stat substitutions:

Take Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles), to pick up Dragon Style and Ferocity. My GM takes the perspective that this when Dragon Style tries to add parts of Str, Focussed Offense interupts and provides the value from Wisdom instead. (4/6 of mt local group are Comp Sci guys.

Later up, pick up Pummeling Stlye and Charge, for pseudo-pounce!

Dreamscarred press are also Beta-ing a splatbook specifically aimed at augmenting Soulknives! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369960-Dreamscarred-Press-Psionics-Augmented-Soulknife)

[Username.]

Feats
Soul Warrior: An up to HD bonus of +2 to soulknife enhanced mind blade and +2 psychic warrior manifester level.

Psychic Warriors can pounce. I should not need to explain why you want to get several levels of psychic warrior.

Fighter’s Blade: An up to HD bonus of +4 to soulknife enhanced mind blade.

Student of the Astral Suit: An up to HD bonus of +4 to Aegis levels for customization. Requires 3 levels of Aegis.

N.B.: Aegis can gain Flight at 5th level. Flight. Always on. That is just a taste of the titanic utility of this class. The Aegis is THE default fighter class.



Equipment
Skinwalker's Leather, Plate of the Juggernaut, and Crystal spaulders. These add customization points to an Aegis. The former two actually increase Aegis level, making them better, if more costly, than the latter.

So what do these feats allow you to do, besides burn all your feat options to the ground? You have 6 levels of soulknife, 7 levels of Aegis (you had to take 3 "real" Aegisl levels) and around 4 levels of Psychic Warrior (assuming you took 2 levels). You aren't nearly as soulknife-oriented as you were before, but if your goal was to stab people with your soulknife, you are, ironically enough, far, far better at it.

And you qualify to enter the Dark Tempest class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/dark-tempest), which advances soulknife mindblades and psychic warrior manifesting.



Traits
Psionic Knack: Get +2 trait to manifester level of one class. That would be Psychic Warrior. You now have, with Soul Warrior, +4 manifester levels to that class.

In playtest, currently:
Natural Blade: You add +2 trait bonus to your soulknife level to determine the strength of your mind blade enhancement and blade skills (where applicable) - this bonus cannot exceed your character level.



I don't know exactly what you want from your Deadly Fist. But there is a lot of well-deserved love coming your way from playtest, and a lot of good stuff already out there. None of it full-caster-level insanity (Summoners Handbook wtf), but still good. I, myself, am playing with a Deadly Fist build and am using the above tools, so I had this info somewhat handy. Something here should help you if you're multiclassing. Good luck.

[Voidstar]

Feats
Soul Warrior: An up to HD bonus of +2 to soulknife enhanced mind blade and +2 psychic warrior manifester level.

Psychic Warriors can pounce. I should not need to explain why you want to get several levels of psychic warrior.

Fighter’s Blade: An up to HD bonus of +4 to soulknife enhanced mind blade.

Student of the Astral Suit: An up to HD bonus of +4 to Aegis levels for customization. Requires 3 levels of Aegis.

N.B.: Aegis can gain Flight at 5th level. Flight. Always on. That is just a taste of the titanic utility of this class. The Aegis is THE default fighter class.



Equipment
Skinwalker's Leather, Plate of the Juggernaut, and Crystal spaulders. These add customization points to an Aegis. The former two actually increase Aegis level, making them better, if more costly, than the latter.

So what do these feats allow you to do, besides burn all your feat options to the ground? You have 6 levels of soulknife, 7 levels of Aegis (you had to take 3 "real" Aegisl levels) and around 4 levels of Psychic Warrior (assuming you took 2 levels). You aren't nearly as soulknife-oriented as you were before, but if your goal was to stab people with your soulknife, you are, ironically enough, far, far better at it.

And you qualify to enter the Dark Tempest class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/dark-tempest), which advances soulknife mindblades and psychic warrior manifesting.



Traits
Psionic Knack: Get +2 trait to manifester level of one class. That would be Psychic Warrior. You now have, with Soul Warrior, +4 manifester levels to that class.

In playtest, currently:
Natural Blade: You add +2 trait bonus to your soulknife level to determine the strength of your mind blade enhancement and blade skills (where applicable) - this bonus cannot exceed your character level.



I don't know exactly what you want from your Deadly Fist. But there is a lot of well-deserved love coming your way from playtest, and a lot of good stuff already out there. None of it full-caster-level insanity (Summoners Handbook wtf), but still good. I, myself, am playing with a Deadly Fist build and am using the above tools, so I had this info somewhat handy. Something here should help you if you're multiclassing. Good luck.

Hey man thanks for this. Any way you can give me a level by level guide on this? When to level what, when to take what, etc?

[Username.]

Hey man thanks for this. Any way you can give me a level by level guide on this? When to level what, when to take what, etc?

Nope, because
1) -- I'm far too lazy for that.
2) It isn't strictly necessary.
3) It's actually impossible.

Nearly anything above can be either taken at any level you choose or must be taken at first level. Traits are at first level, so, there you go. The pro-Aegis feat requires 3 levels of Aegis (real Aegis) to qualify -- note that there's at least one archetype, Crystal Warrior, which can't take it due to trading out a prerequisite (which sucks, because that archetype is the bee's knees).

You technically need three levels of Soulknife for the pro-Soulknife feat, but the trait could grant you the enhanced mind blade you need at soulknife level 1. With that, you qualify for the hybrid psywar/soulblade feat with just one level of psywar (assuming you don't have an archetype which trades warrior's path out or pushes it down the build -- so don't do that).

What should be taken when depends on what you want to do. You need to look at psywar first-level powers, Aegis customizations, and blade skills and decide which you need first. There are too many options for me to go over casually. Example: jumping into Aegis: Aberrant for a grapple build will be completely different than jumping into psywar to start building a charger. The combination of these three classes can support dozens of builds, some of which can be changed for others on the fly.

The only thing that is certain is that Monk will probably be no help at all.

[Voidstar]

Nope, because
1) -- I'm far too lazy for that.
2) It isn't strictly necessary.
3) It's actually impossible.

Nearly anything above can be either taken at any level you choose or must be taken at first level. Traits are at first level, so, there you go. The pro-Aegis feat requires 3 levels of Aegis (real Aegis) to qualify -- note that there's at least one archetype, Crystal Warrior, which can't take it due to trading out a prerequisite (which sucks, because that archetype is the bee's knees).

You technically need three levels of Soulknife for the pro-Soulknife feat, but the trait could grant you the enhanced mind blade you need at soulknife level 1. With that, you qualify for the hybrid psywar/soulblade feat with just one level of psywar (assuming you don't have an archetype which trades warrior's path out or pushes it down the build -- so don't do that).

What should be taken when depends on what you want to do. You need to look at psywar first-level powers, Aegis customizations, and blade skills and decide which you need first. There are too many options for me to go over casually. Example: jumping into Aegis: Aberrant for a grapple build will be completely different than jumping into psywar to start building a charger. The combination of these three classes can support dozens of builds, some of which can be changed for others on the fly.

The only thing that is certain is that Monk will probably be no help at all.

Ok I understand. Going to try to start working on this then. Any recommendation for stats? My OP has what I'm using right now, but I'm really liking the multiclassing PsyWar and Aegis. I'm mainly looking to explode in enemies faces vs. doing any sort of combat maneuvers and still have some defensive capability/utility, so your suggestions are right in line with that I think.

[Username.]

Ok I understand. Going to try to start working on this then. Any recommendation for stats? My OP has what I'm using right now, but I'm really liking the multiclassing PsyWar and Aegis. I'm mainly looking to explode in enemies faces vs. doing any sort of combat maneuvers and still have some defensive capability/utility, so your suggestions are right in line with that I think.

Combat maneuvers are nearly worthless for anything but a Str build, so there is no point in prioritizing Dex in and of itself. Decreasing priorities are therefore Str, Wis, Con, Int/Dex, Cha. You need to look at handbooks if you are going to be using maneuvers: at mid-levels, you either optimize or they stop working, and even then they're usually garbage. In fact, just saying "I'll do maneuvers" is too vague, b/c lots of them require different item chains. Non-negotiable items would be Dueling -- the +1 version, not the flat gp version -- and Brawling.

Maneuvers require you to pour over items lists AND feats lists for appropriate things; it's too much to ask people on boards for every pro-maneuver thingie: you're asking everyone to write several handbooks at once. There are entire builds that only come online once your WBL is high enough. Those two enhancements, though, are perfect starts. Outside of that, you must specify.

Path of War is a huge consideration for maneuvers; a psywar archetype can get martial maneuvers, as can an in-playtest Aegis customization. Again: too much to cover without specifics.

You need to decide what you want before building, and/or look at the items, feats, and classes available before building.

N.B.: Bodywraps (use Inertial Armor for armor), Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Soulknife can stack enhancement bonuses on your attacks. There may or may not be an "unwritten rule" (e.g., a bald assertation from the PF design team with no warning or textual basis thrown on the internet in an act of complete incompetence) that the maximum bonuses you can have for a weapon is +10. I can't be arsed to look it up, especially since it only matters if your table can be arsed to look it up. Feral Combat Training makes Beast Claws play nice with any unarmed-only items you grab (case-by-case review is needed to justify that feat); if you take the psywar archetype that advances your unarmed damage (the usefulness of this is debatable, btw), it will scale up your Beast Claw damage. Aegis gets Powerful Build and Brawn (cheap Str enhancement bonuses so you can wear a belt of dex or con instead of str -- or switch those around if you like), so you could just go pure damage.

[Voidstar]

Combat maneuvers are nearly worthless for anything but a Str build, so there is no point in prioritizing Dex in and of itself. Decreasing priorities are therefore Str, Wis, Con, Int/Dex, Cha. You need to look at handbooks if you are going to be using maneuvers: at mid-levels, you either optimize or they stop working, and even then they're usually garbage. In fact, just saying "I'll do maneuvers" is too vague, b/c lots of them require different item chains. Non-negotiable items would be Dueling -- the +1 version, not the flat gp version -- and Brawling.

Maneuvers require you to pour over items lists AND feats lists for appropriate things; it's too much to ask people on boards for every pro-maneuver thingie: you're asking everyone to write several handbooks at once. There are entire builds that only come online once your WBL is high enough. Those two enhancements, though, are perfect starts. Outside of that, you must specify.

Path of War is a huge consideration for maneuvers; a psywar archetype can get martial maneuvers, as can an in-playtest Aegis customization. Again: too much to cover without specifics.

You need to decide what you want before building, and/or look at the items, feats, and classes available before building.

N.B.: Bodywraps (use Inertial Armor for armor), Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Soulknife can stack enhancement bonuses on your attacks. There may or may not be an "unwritten rule" (e.g., a bald assertation from the PF design team with no warning or textual basis thrown on the internet in an act of complete incompetence) that the maximum bonuses you can have for a weapon is +10. I can't be arsed to look it up, especially since it only matters if your table can be arsed to look it up. Feral Combat Training makes Beast Claws play nice with any unarmed-only items you grab (case-by-case review is needed to justify that feat); if you take the psywar archetype that advances your unarmed damage (the usefulness of this is debatable, btw), it will scale up your Beast Claw damage. Aegis gets Powerful Build and Brawn (cheap Str enhancement bonuses so you can wear a belt of dex or con instead of str -- or switch those around if you like), so you could just go pure damage.

Think you misunderstood me. I'm NOT doing combat maneuvers.