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JNAProductions
2015-08-05, 08:53 PM
Xelor

Thief of Time
Starting at third level, you can use the bonus action granted to you by your Cunning Action to steal an opponent's bonus or legendary action. You must make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check as opposed by the opponents Wisdom (Perception) check. If you succeed, the opponent cannot take a bonus action on their next turn or loses one legendary action.
This can be used on enemies up to 60' away.

Time Manipulation
When you choose this archetype at third level, you can choose at the start of combat to either give yourself or one other person within 60' advantage or disadvantage on the Initiative roll. You cannot do this if you are surprised.

Fleet
Starting at ninth level, you always have advantage on Initiative rolls. In addition, all movement speeds increase by 10'.

Improved Thief Of Time
By thirteenth level, you have improved your ability to steal an enemy's actions. As an action, you can steal an enemy's action or movement (using the same check as Thief of Time). If you succeed, the enemy can either take no actions except for bonus actions, or has all movement speeds reduced to 0' and cannot benefit from increases to their movement speed.

Master Time Thief
When you reach seventeenth level, you have fully mastered your ability to steal time. You can now steal actions or movement as a bonus action, and can steal any two actions (action, bonus action, legendary action, or movement) as an action.

ZenBear
2015-08-05, 09:12 PM
A very interesting concept!

I'm a bit leery of stealing legendary actions at level 3, and the whole idea of stealing actions is so novel that I can't really tell if it's overpowered, underpowered or a balanced use of your own actions.

Also, what the heck is Xelor?

JNAProductions
2015-08-05, 09:17 PM
Xelor (http://wakfu.wikia.com/wiki/Xelor)

I put Legendary Actions at level 3 because honestly, it's not that powerful. Few enemies have them, and those who do have a lot more than one. (I think three is the minimum amount.)

Also, my friend Burner (of Red and Burner Productions) actually came up with the idea, based on the Wakfu video game. So give props to him for that.

Ralanr
2015-08-05, 09:18 PM
So no recharge on the 6th ability?

JNAProductions
2015-08-05, 09:20 PM
It's always on, yeah. I didn't think that'd be overpowered or anything, and Rogue abilities usually don't have recharge times, so it fit.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 12:35 AM
Pretty cool, though I always thought Xelor were a race...

Nox in particular looks more like a wizard or maybe sorcerer than a rogue. Hmm... Is there a chronomancer arcane tradition in the compendium?

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 12:37 AM
Pretty cool, though I always thought Xelor were a race...

Nox in particular looks more like a wizard or maybe sorcerer than a rogue. Hmm... Is there a chronomancer arcane tradition in the compendium?

Yes, they are.

And yes, he is. But I cannot write a decent spell list for the life of me, so Rogue Archetype it its!

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 12:57 AM
Yes, they are.

And yes, he is. But I cannot write a decent spell list for the life of me, so Rogue Archetype it its!

Fair enough.

I had a look through the compendium, and there are two chronomancer traditions. It's pretty clear that they don't work though, because you have to give them something like Quicken Spell, which takes a lot of the shine off the sorcerer.

I think I'll have a go at a time-based sorcerous origin when I get a chance. Let's see... There's no time on the astral plane, is there, so maybe a child conceived there could be subject to a chronomantic aberration?

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 12:58 AM
Sounds pretty interesting. However, to keep the thread on topic, any commentary on the Archetype itself?

As ZenBear said, it's hard to tell if it's over-, under-, or well-powered, so some more people weighing in would be great.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 01:16 AM
Sounds pretty interesting. However, to keep the thread on topic, any commentary on the Archetype itself?

As ZenBear said, it's hard to tell if it's over-, under-, or well-powered, so some more people weighing in would be great.

Well, I'm leaning towards underpowered. Plenty of classes have ways to restrain, incapacitate or stun people, which is effectively the same as stealing their actions. Advantage on initiative would be good if you had an assassin buddy, but even then it's not overpowered.

I think it needs a note to say whether or not you can use Thief of Time and Improved Thief of Time in the same turn.

Apart from that, there isn't much exploration utility here. I would think timey powers would be pretty good in everyday life.

Is it possible to give PCs actions on other people's turns without ruining balance? Maybe something like cunning action as a legendary action once per round?

Oh, and I like that it uses Sleight of Hand! That's an underused skill.

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 01:17 AM
Perhaps give them Arcane Trickster Spell progression and some custom, time-based spells?

I hate having to delve into casting, but it'd make too much sense not to.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 01:32 AM
Ok, I've got some ideas for a complete overhaul, if you don't mind. Watch this space...

Edits below.

Actually, I guess this is more of a spin-off than an overhaul. I'll give it a new name. What I'm going for here is more variety in the abilities, and a bit of exploration-utility.

Roguish Archetype: Chronosmith

Thief of Time
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your Cunning Action to steal an opponent's bonus or legendary action. You must make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check as opposed by the opponents Wisdom (Perception) check. If you succeed, the opponent cannot take a bonus action on their next turn or loses one legendary action.

Time Manipulation
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you have advantage on all Initiative rolls, unless you are surprised. You may sacrifice this advantage to impose disadvantage on the initiative roll of any creature you can see within 90 feet of you.

Delayed Action
At 9th level, you gain more control over time. If you do not use a bonus action on your turn, you may choose to make a Cunning Action at the end of another creature's turn.

Stall Time
At 13th level, you gain the ability to briefly slow time while you focus on a specific task. When you use your Reliable Talent ability, you can either treat any roll of 14 or lower as a 15, or apply the ability to a roll in which you are not proficient. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum 1), and recover all expended uses upon completing a long rest.

Improved Thief of Time
Once you reach 17th level, you can choose to use your Thief of Time ability to steal a creature's action or movement, instead of its bonus or legendary action.


Perhaps there's a way to synergise the two? My knowledge of Wakfu is limited to the first 25 episodes or so of the TV show, so I don't really know how my ideas fit with the canon.

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 02:12 AM
Delayed Action
At 9th level, you gain more control over time. If you do not use a bonus action on your turn, you may choose to make a Cunning Action at the end of another creature's turn.

Stall Time
At 13th level, you gain the ability to briefly slow time while you focus on a specific task. When you use your Reliable Talent ability, you can either treat any roll of 14 or lower as a 15, or apply the ability to a roll in which you are not proficient. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier (minimum 1), and recover all expended uses upon completing a long rest.

I only have comments on these two abilities.

Delayed Action is useless-you would already have to be in position to Hide, and you have no movement to Disengage or Dash with. You could, in theory, use Thief of Time, but why didn't you use it already? Really useless.

Stall Time makes some sense, but feels out of place. Everything else deals with the action economy. In addition, it's a long rest recharge, which I try to avoid on the Rogue chassis.

Overall, I'm more inclined to stick with my original and slap some casting on top of it.

Edit: Wait, you never finished Season 1? FINISH IT! THE ENDING IS SO GOOD! YOU HAVE TO OH MY GOD IT KICKS SO MUCH BUTT!

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 02:26 AM
I only have comments on these two abilities.

Delayed Action is useless-you would already have to be in position to Hide, and you have no movement to Disengage or Dash with. You could, in theory, use Thief of Time, but why didn't you use it already? Really useless.

Stall Time makes some sense, but feels out of place. Everything else deals with the action economy. In addition, it's a long rest recharge, which I try to avoid on the Rogue chassis.

Overall, I'm more inclined to stick with my original and slap some casting on top of it.

Ah well, they were just thoughts I came up with walking to the office.


Edit: Wait, you never finished Season 1? FINISH IT! THE ENDING IS SO GOOD! YOU HAVE TO OH MY GOD IT KICKS SO MUCH BUTT!

Yeah, I watched the first 20 episodes or so in a marathon... it was great at first, but I felt the story started meandering towards the end of that. Since then I've watched an episode here and there, but... I don't know. Also I cannot for the life of me get on board with Eva/Grovy. The more they shove that down my throat, the less I'm inclined to keep watching.

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 02:29 AM
Aw. I like Eva/Dali.

Anywho, any chance you can help draft up some spells? Stuff like Haste/Slow is obviously on the list, but the Xelor needs a lot more spells than just that.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 02:39 AM
Aw. I like Eva/Dali.

Anywho, any chance you can help draft up some spells? Stuff like Haste/Slow is obviously on the list, but the Xelor needs a lot more spells than just that.

Well, I do have some time... I don't have much history in the brewing up of spells, but I'll try and help as much as I can.

JNAProductions
2015-08-06, 02:40 AM
I'll check on this thread in the morning-it's 2 AM over here.

Thanks Ninja_Prawn!

(This here just so you don't double post.)

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 03:25 AM
Okay. Chronomancy. A subtype of Transmutation.

Existing spells that should be included in this subtype:
Level 1
Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider

Level 3
Haste, Slow

Level 7
Sequester

Level 9
Time Stop

Spells from previous editions, to be updated:
Cantrips
Moment to Think

Level 2
Time's Arrow

Level 3
Action (change to level 2)

Level 5
Temporal Reversion

Level 6
Improved Haste

Epic (change to 9)
Temporal Bubble

New spells to be homebrewed:
Cantrips
Manipulate Clockwork

Level 1
Enhance Reflexes, Safiya’s Industrious Worker, Slow Thinking

Level 2
Burst of Speed, Delay

Level 3
Restore Youth

Level 4
Curse of Aging

Level 5
Evasiveness

Level 6
Dislocation in Time, Improved Slow

Level 7
Lesser Time Stop, Mass Haste

Level 8
Time Freeze

Level 9
Mass Improved Haste, Zone of Altered Time

Others to follow?

Final list:
Cantrips
Manipulate Clockwork, Moment to Think

Level 1
Enhance Reflexes, Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Safiya’s Industrious Worker, Slow Thinking

Level 2
Action, Burst of Speed, Delay, Time's Arrow

Level 3
Haste, Restore Youth, Slow

Level 4
Curse of Aging

Level 5
Evasiveness, Temporal Reversion

Level 6
Dislocation in Time, Improved Haste, Improved Slow

Level 7
Lesser Time Stop, Mass Haste, Sequester

Level 8
Time Freeze

Level 9
Mass Improved Haste, Temporal Bubble, Time Stop, Zone of Altered Time

Meditations on time magic:
A mage with the ability to manipulate or control time is going to be powerful. Time is such a fundamental, universal thing and even a small amount of power (such as Haste) is enough to dominate situations within a game. Therefore, whenever you come up with an effect, it ends up being a high-level spell, in order to preserve balance.

This means that it's very difficult to build a time mage at low levels, and certainly recommends against building it as a 1/3 caster, as they would never be able to access most of the chronomancy spells.

I maintain that the way forward is to keep the Time Thief archetype as-is and build a 'Chronotouched' sorcerous origin to run side-by-side (still need a good name for that). I think both of these would fit nicely into a slightly more advanced setting, featuring clockwork, gunpowder and so on - something like Ivalice.

Also, why are there no famous transmuters in the D&D canon? I had to borrow one from NWN...

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 03:32 AM
Homebrew spells here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19641169&postcount=1).

Amnoriath
2015-08-06, 09:05 AM
Definitely a novel concept and is simple enough but there are a couple of issues.
1. Stealing actions should have a range, while in battle it isn't so much of an issue it would be kind of ridiculous outside of battle being able to shut down a person's ability to act in meaningful ways just from you being able to see them.
2. As it is right now the mechanic at best yields a 1 to 1 trade until level 17. While against fewer foes it proportionally depletes their actions more but likely you are doing so at the expense of your key attack. Obviously it doesn't work that well against being outnumbered or even in a duel. What I would suggest is that you gain a sort of time point up to a maximum in which you can spend on doing another kind of action as a bonus action.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-08-06, 09:13 AM
it would be kind of ridiculous outside of battle being able to shut down a person's ability to act in meaningful ways just from you being able to see them.

Actually, I like that. Cast Scrying on someone when they're eating their breakfast, then every time they take an action to spoon cereal into their mouth, you steal it! Imagine the frustration!