Do you feel like you're cheating when you play Gestalt Characters?

[magicalmagicman]

It feels like the difference between starting a character with 25 point buy and 40 point buy. 25 is normal and 40 is overpowered and therefore feels like cheating to me.

I failed to find any lore on gestalt characters so it feels like a purely mechanical thing. "You're too weak so grab another class every level" just like "You're too weak so grab another 15 points in point buy."

These thoughts keep stopping me from joining a gestalt game. How about you guys?

[Nifft]

If it were a non-Gestalt campaign, where I was the only Gestalt character, then I'd probably feel like I was cheating.

In a Gestalt campaign, where everyone is on the same page in terms of mechanics... then I feel totally okay.

In my experience, Gestalt campaigns are often used for smaller groups where there aren't enough PCs to carry every expected role, or they're thematic campaigns (e.g. "everyone is a Rogue!" or "everyone is a Martial Adept!").

None of those have felt like cheating to me.

[Tvtyrant]

You can't cheat anyone but yourself in a paper RPG. Gestalt games tend to use fewer players or be harder than other games to make up the difference, but if players just like being extremely versatile and powerful than why not. Not really any different then being strong through any other means.

[Zancloufer]

Typically in a Gestalt game the entire party, and probably many NPCs and enemies are all Gestalt. Your no more powerful than the other players, and all the enemies can either be Gestalt or just be a higher CR to compensate. You don't run around as a Gestalt character fighter equal CR non-gestalt enemies, that would just be silly. It's like having a game where the character(s) are 2-5 levels higher for no apparent reason.

Also IMHO a Gestalt character isn't really OP in anyway. Any tier 1 class, and even most tier 2 classes, while becoming slightly more "powerful" get no where near the power boost that weaker classes do from Gestalt rules. You can make some interesting "mundane" classes or gishes that would wouldn't dare try in a normal game. Essentially the weaker the classes the more they gain from a good Gestalt. It's more of an equalizer, like a higher point buy.

Also IMHO 40 point buy might seem OP over 25, but in reality it just helps the weaker classes close the gap with the stronger ones (Like Gestalting). Well, I would say past 40 (or 50 with Gestalt) it does get silly.

[Geddy2112]

What they said. A gestalt character in a non gestalt party is going to be too powerful. A party of 8 gestalts when almost all are at least one full casting class is going to be too powerful. But a gestalt rogue/fighter at higher levels still won't match the power tier of a full caster.

If you are in a gestalt game, expect to need that power.

[Pluto!]

I play with people who, when they hear gestalt, think it's time to bust out the old Warmage//Barbarian or Ninja//Rogue.

So yeah, kind of. But less because my characters are stronger than normal (they're not, really, since "normal" includes higher-level games), but more because the optimization gap becomes a chasm.

[The Insanity]

No. Why would I?

[KingSmitty]

nope. I just like the extra class features.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, definitely. It's just too much. (And also too feat-starved.)

[AvatarVecna]

Only if not every character is. As long as the party members are given the same base resources (same number of class levels) and their foes are kept appropriately challenging, you can get some interesting combos going, and even find good use for otherwise terrible classes/PrCs. You're almost always going to have less feats than you'd prefer, though, so either implement a bonus feat mechanic, make some good synergy between your two sides, get some bonus feats from your classes, or resign yourself to never be as awesome as you'd prefer.

[ekarney]

I feel like I'm cheating myself in them, even if I'm in a gestalt only game I feel like I'm taking the easy way out since I can't apply gestalt builds to standard games.

I get the same thing when DM's give template/LA/ECL allowances and soft caps.

[martixy]

Typically in a Gestalt game the entire party, and probably many NPCs and enemies are all Gestalt. Your no more powerful than the other players, and all the enemies can either be Gestalt or just be a higher CR to compensate. You don't run around as a Gestalt character fighter equal CR non-gestalt enemies, that would just be silly. It's like having a game where the character(s) are 2-5 levels higher for no apparent reason.

Also IMHO a Gestalt character isn't really OP in anyway. Any tier 1 class, and even most tier 2 classes, while becoming slightly more "powerful" get no where near the power boost that weaker classes do from Gestalt rules. You can make some interesting "mundane" classes or gishes that would wouldn't dare try in a normal game. Essentially the weaker the classes the more they gain from a good Gestalt. It's more of an equalizer, like a higher point buy.

Also IMHO 40 point buy might seem OP over 25, but in reality it just helps the weaker classes close the gap with the stronger ones (Like Gestalting). Well, I would say past 40 (or 50 with Gestalt) it does get silly.

I think someone cloned me without my permission...

And by that I mean this is exactly how I view the game.
A low point buy penalizes low tier more than a high one benefits high tiers.
Same with gestalt.

The trick with gestalt however is that it unlocks some things that are simply impossible to do in a normal game. That's one of the reasons I like the variant so much.
But there is one caveat: you have to have high buy for that to work. This is because to unlock all the options you need to be able to go MAD.

Picture if you will this: You want to make a blaster/skill monkey combo.
Your immediate response might be: sorcerers make good blasters, rogues make good skill monkeys. And you'd be right.
But what if you only had low point buy - these classes classes rely on 2/3 different abilities to stay competitive.
Now contrast this with a psion // factotum combo. Similar tiers, capable of performing the exact same roles, but a markedly improved performance in a low point buy situation owing to the fact that their primary stats happen to coincide.

3.5 probably has enough material that just about any role combo can be made SAD, but that's not the point.

I view gestalt games as fertile grounds for experimentation. Where you can make crazy stuff happen, either through unusual class interactions or just because you can try something horribly unoptimized, but fun on one side and have the other make up for it.

[Necroticplague]

No, why would I? As long as everyone is gestalt, I'm following the same rules as everyone else, and there's no cheating. It lets me make more better rounded characters, play things with LA without crippling myself, and allows for more interesting builds.

[Nyaa]

Gestalt doesn't give extra actions, so no.


It feels like the difference between starting a character with 25 point buy and 40 point buy. 25 is normal and 40 is overpowered and therefore feels like cheating to me.

Difference between 25 and 40 is +1 mod to your main stat (if you haven't maxed it already) and +1 or +2 to another stat. And maybe not dumping STR and/or CHA.

[Psyren]

The whole point of it is that the GM is supposed to be throwing more challenge at you. Say, a campaign made for a full party where there are only two people, or a campaign where you're intended to feel like godlings but where the difficulty is expected to ramp up quickly.

If you feel like you're cheating, the most likely cause is that your GM isn't making the game hard enough. That means that either (a) he needs to bam it up a notch, or (b) gestalt likely isn't necessary for the game you're running.

[P.F.]

Yes, when I am the only one playing a gestalt character, and I don't tell the DM that that's what I'm doing. I still don't feel guilty about it though since no one really cares if my ninja//monk sucks slightly less than a ninja-only and is still only slightly better at combat than the straight rogue, and worse than the rogue at skill-monkeying. If one of the other players decides to play a monk though I'll probably have to retire this character. I'm holding back on some of the monk class features, though, so they might not notice unless they actually start looking in detail at both the monk and the ninja.

[DarkSonic1337]

Yes, when I am the only one playing a gestalt character, and I don't tell the DM that that's what I'm doing.

Don't do this.

The DM should always know what the players are playing. The other players don't necessarily have to know, but it's the DM's job to make challenges for your party and to make appropriate challenges he needs to know your capabilities.

Explain to the DM that your particular gestalt is not that powerful (considering you've been playing him this whole time), it's really just letting you keep up with the rest of the party. Your DM may be cool with it, or maybe he can help you optimize a non gestalt character to fit with your concept and still keep up.

[Extra Anchovies]

I've got a lot of practice trying to squeeze everything I want into 20 levels, so doing the same with gestalt often feels too easy. I usually end up taking one of my standard 20-level builds and tacking 20 levels of a compatible class on the other side.


Yes, when I am the only one playing a gestalt character, and I don't tell the DM that that's what I'm doing.

You're literally cheating at D&D. Tell your DM what you're doing, if not for balance reasons then because it's the decent and honest thing to do.

[magicalmagicman]

No, why would I? As long as everyone is gestalt, I'm following the same rules as everyone else, and there's no cheating. It lets me make more better rounded characters, play things with LA without crippling myself, and allows for more interesting builds.

From a mechanical point of view you're right, but from a roleplaying point of view it feels weird to me.

It feels like... it takes a full high level party to take down a great wyrm but since the DM wants to throw 100 great wyrms at us he makes us ridiculously powerful. It just doesn't feel legit to me you know?

Everyone here made a strong argument about how gestalt and high point buy makes it more fun because you can do some really crazy and fun stuff and I agree, but I still can't shake the feeling it's not legit XD.

It's my problem, I'll deal with it. Thanks everyone.

[Draco_Lord]

I mean, it isn't legit, at least by the rules, can't go play in society with it. But I think the fun lies in being something more unique, different, and unusual. Like this one character I made for a one off session. We were level 30, and I decided I wanted something better then just a straight 20 class and 10 levels in something else. So I made a shadow dancer, bard, fighter, rogue, assassin, arcane trickster, and fighter. It made something kind of weird, better then I thought, and that could sneak into the shadows to teleport behind the enemy and attack with a great sword. It was fun to make and play!

[Crake]

From a mechanical point of view you're right, but from a roleplaying point of view it feels weird to me.

It feels like... it takes a full high level party to take down a great wyrm but since the DM wants to throw 100 great wyrms at us he makes us ridiculously powerful. It just doesn't feel legit to me you know?

Everyone here made a strong argument about how gestalt and high point buy makes it more fun because you can do some really crazy and fun stuff and I agree, but I still can't shake the feeling it's not legit XD.

It's my problem, I'll deal with it. Thanks everyone.

Gestalt isn't usually more powerful specifically, but rather more versatile. It gives you more options, but generally the level of power difference is not that much. I actually have a houserule that allows players to gestalt in a non-gestalt game, which comes with something akin to a scaling level adjustment. If anyone's interested in having a look, it's linked in my sig. I've run games using that houserule and the gestalts don't steal the show at any point in the game.

[Necroticplague]

From a mechanical point of view you're right, but from a roleplaying point of view it feels weird to me.

It feels like... it takes a full high level party to take down a great wyrm but since the DM wants to throw 100 great wyrms at us he makes us ridiculously powerful. It just doesn't feel legit to me you know?
How is it weirder to roleplay? You're just a dude whose bag of tricks is a bit larger than normal. No real change in roleplay needed.

And it doesn't make you that much more powerful. You're still very limited by action economics, and having to split up your skill points and feats among the various things in your bag of tricks.

[danzibr]

I play with people who, when they hear gestalt, think it's time to bust out the old Warmage//Barbarian or Ninja//Rogue.
This made me lol.

Yes, when I am the only one playing a gestalt character, and I don't tell the DM that that's what I'm doing.
This made me lshmsfoaidmt.

On a more serious note, I didn't play enough regular D&D that gestalt feels like cheating. My group played gestalt the last campaign, we all liked it.

As far as verisimilitude is concerned... what's wrong with it? It's kind of like how multiclassing used to be.

[Molosse]

You're literally cheating at D&D. Tell your DM what you're doing, if not for balance reasons then because it's the decent and honest thing to do.

They're, I assume, taking the piss mate.

[Jurai]

Heavens no. If I was cheating, I'd be playing two distinct characters, regardless of house rules for the campaign.

[squiggit]

From a mechanical point of view you're right, but from a roleplaying point of view it feels weird to me.

I'm not sure how this really has any effect on roleplayability.

If anything I think it expands it by making concepts easier to execute. We had a core gestalt game a while back and I played a fighter//wizard battlemage type character. In a non gestalt game I'd be a level 1 fighter who doesn't know how to do any form of magic whatsoever and then after a few encounters spontaneously learn a few spells before the next session but start to suffer at fighting until I got into EK and eventually made it work.

From a roleplaying standpoint the former executes the concept much better and I'd argue it's one of the biggest advantages of gestalt.

[Telonius]

Yes, definitely. It's just too much. (And also too feat-starved.)

So the food's terrible and the portions are too small? :smallbiggrin: I think I know what you mean, though. It's giving everybody so many options for class features, but the number of feats is kept constant. The feats are what really cranks up the power supply for casters, but if you're trying to do too many things at once you won't do all of them well. You can have your Divine Metamagic Persist, but is that going to kill your ability to go Leap Attack Shock Trooper? If you're Gestalting any class with class features disguised as feats (like some of the Tome of Battle stuff), that makes matters worse.

[marphod]

The feats are what really cranks up the power supply for casters


Uh. What?

Yes, for some specific cases, feats are what makes the caster, but that's far from the general case.

Druid's need one feat. Everything else is gravy.

Give most of your other core casters 3 or 4 feats, and they're good to go. Maybe another 2 or 3 for Prestige Class access. Generally, though, an Efficient Quiver and a bunch of Metamagic wands, and their good.

Clerics need 3 feats for DMM Persist cheese. Another 2 or 3 for PrCs.

The feat starved classes are the Martials, which need to feats to get their basic effectiveness working (Craven, Shock Trooper, Martial Study/Martial Stance, multiclassing feats, whatever) and access to the necessary-for-effectiveness PrCs. A Tier 1 is still a Tier 1 without feats. They're less effective, but still on the same power scale. A Tier 3 or 4 without feats can effectively drop to Tier 5 or 6.


... but if you're trying to do too many things at once you won't do all of them well. You can have your Divine Metamagic Persist, but is that going to kill your ability to go Leap Attack Shock Trooper? If you're Gestalting any class with class features disguised as feats (like some of the Tome of Battle stuff), that makes matters worse.

Human 6th level: (Cloistered) Cleric 1 (Sun, Knowledge Devotion, whatever)/Full Casting 3/Divine Oracle 1/Radiant Servant 1//Barbarian 1/Full BAB 3/Fighter 2
1) Extend Spell
H) Persistent Spell
Flaw1) DMM: Persist
Flaw2) Power Attack
( Barb1) Lion Spirit (Pounce) )
3) Extra Turning
Fighter 1) Leap Attack
6) Imp. Bull Rush
Fighter 2) Shock Trooper

Drop the flaws, and you can still do this with a fighter 4/Barbarian 1/Full BAB with bonus feat 1.

There are never enough Feats to do EVERYTHING you want, but there usually enough feats to get the core build of each side of a Gestalt Build.

If you were doing gestalt of 2 heavy feat builds (maybe Swift Mystic Hunter//Totemist Clawlock?) you may start running into problems.

(Edit: Okay. Now I really want to play one of these in a Gestalt game, just to see if I can do it.)

[martixy]

Simple solution: get MOAR feats.

PF progression seems appropriate for a gestalt game. A few feat tax fixes don't hurt either. That and no multi class penalties allow dips into things like fighter, psychic warrior or martial variants of other classes. Trickery such as this can easily net you 10+ feats by L7.

Most gestalt games I've seen do at least one of those things, some do all.

And you can also just wish for some.

[Renen]

When I play gestalt characters my DM wishes I was cheating!

[gadren]

Keep in mind that the gestalt rules say that the DM should treat Gestalt characters as 2 levels higher for the purpose of determining threats and rewards.

So, if you're a caster, your maximum spell level is always at least one level lower than a "normal" character. If you're not a caster, well it's 3.5 and you need all the help you can get because you're not a caster.

I've actually run a game where players could choose between playing a gestalt character or playing a "normal" character of two levels higher (three levels higher after the "normal characters hit level 10 - they jump straight to level 11). Two of the five players chose single class instead of gestalt, but the power levels were pretty balanced.