Can you sneak attack with wands

[AsheItachi]

A rogue in my game is trying to pull this and i cant find anything RAW to counter his argument. So I need just to be told its legal and ok or have im issed something?

[Jarmen4u]

A rogue in my game is trying to pull this and i cant find anything RAW to counter his argument. So I need just to be told its legal and ok or have im issed something?

Is he using the wand as a melee weapon? If so, that would count as an improvised weapon, and I'm not sure what the rules are on sneak attacking with an improv weapon. If he's trying to sneak attack by casting with it, obviously not.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Its legal, you can sneak attack using any weapon-like spell. It doesn't matter if you cast the spell personally or via a magic item.

[Geddy2112]

"Sneak attack normally works with weapon-like spells, including rays. It doesn't normally work with magic missile because that is not a weapon-like spell or ray."-Sean K. Renyolds.

And by weapon like, the spell has to roll to hit and deal damage. So if the wand is casting a spell that is weapon like(acid splash, ray of frost etc) then yes, sneak attack can apply.

Otherwise, the rogue can use it as an improvised weapon and get sneak attack that way.

Both of course still require target to be flanked, denied dex etc.

[Sayt]

If he's using the wand to cast a ranged touch spell at a target within 30 ft, or casting a melee touch spell with the wand, then if the target is denied their dexterity, you may sneak attack from wand-cast spells. The key distinction here is whether an attach roll is called for. Shocking grasp can be sneak attacked, but Magic Missile can't be.

If you're jamming a wand in someone's eye, if you meet the requirements, you can sneak attack if you meet the conditions. With a -4 to hit, it isn't going to be easy, but you can stick a fire poker in someone's liver for Massive Damage.

[AsheItachi]

The hang up I have on it is it you can have a rogue take one level into Sorc, then throwing unlimited orbs of acid vs Touch AC dealing sneak attack damage applied to that.

[Taveena]

The hang up I have on it is it you can have a rogue take one level into Sorc, then throwing unlimited orbs of acid vs Touch AC dealing sneak attack damage applied to that.

Only against enemies denied their dex bonus, and without getting the benefits of two-weapon fighting, and once per round. It's a much weaker playstyle than standard TWF if that is as far as he's optimizing.

[Sayt]

The hang up I have on it is it you can have a rogue take one level into Sorc, then throwing unlimited orbs of acid vs Touch AC dealing sneak attack damage applied to that.

Uh, you still have to qualify for the sneak attack damage, by having the target somehow denied their dex to AC.

[AsheItachi]

Only against enemies denied their dex bonus, and without getting the benefits of two-weapon fighting, and once per round. It's a much weaker playstyle than standard TWF if that is as far as he's optimizing.

Ive seen, in the many games i have run, that they miss more often than not half the time just about.
The VS touch would make the hit chance much more likely.

Now I get that heh as to be denied his dex bonus. And maybe Im just being picky about it. But in my gut I honestly dont think it was meant to work this way. I think this is another thing that never got too looked into. Id honestly have to say that any precision damage has to be done with a weapon.

[Taveena]

Ive seen, in the many games i have run, that they miss more often than not half the time just about.
The VS touch would make the hit chance much more likely.

Now I get that heh as to be denied his dex bonus. And maybe Im just being picky about it. But in my gut I honestly dont think it was meant to work this way. I think this is another thing that never got too looked into. Id honestly have to say that any precision damage has to be done with a weapon.

You are emphatically wrong. Rules Compendium, page 136, explicitly says they can be used with Precision Damage.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Complete Arcane (yes I know this is a pathfinder thread, but the precedent exists) has explicit rules about sneak attacking with spells, so yes the developers did thing about that interaction and thought it was fine. As other people have mentioned it is a lot less reliable even if you are targeting touch AC.

[Sayt]

Ive seen, in the many games i have run, that they miss more often than not half the time just about.
The VS touch would make the hit chance much more likely.

Now I get that heh as to be denied his dex bonus. And maybe Im just being picky about it. But in my gut I honestly dont think it was meant to work this way. I think this is another thing that never got too looked into. Id honestly have to say that any precision damage has to be done with a weapon.
I suggest you go look up the Arcane Trickster PRC, one of it's core class features is getting sneak attacks on spells.


You are emphatically wrong. Rules Compendium, page 136, explicitly says they can be used with Precision Damage.
You seem to have emphatically missed the Pathfinder Tag :smallbiggrin: Unless you're talking about a rules precedent set by 3.5 for pathfinder which is....dubious, but certainly could be useful in absence of a more valid ruling.

[AsheItachi]

I suggest you go look up the Arcane Trickster PRC, one of it's core class features is getting sneak attacks on spells..[/color]

Good find. So there is president on getting this ability and you have to become prestige classed to do so.

[Taveena]

Good find. So there is president on getting this ability and you have to become prestige classed to do so.

Looks like you're right. My apologies, I did indeed miss the Pathfinder tag.

That's a very odd change, and as mentioned it's already a really weak build choice.

[AsheItachi]

The Arcane trickster is a good idea

Since it automatically applies it to any spell.

So magic missile which always hits, and you can fire 5 missiles at 10 level. Lets say you fire each missle at a sepperate target, all within limits of course, would each missile sneak attack if they didnt know you was there?

[Taveena]

The Arcane trickster is a good idea

Since it automatically applies it to any spell.

So magic missile which always hits, and you can fire 5 missiles at 10 level. Lets say you fire each missle at a sepperate target, all within limits of course, would each missile sneak attack if they didnt know you was there?

Them being unaware of you is one of the ways to make them flat footed. There are others, though they're rarer in Pathfinder than 3.5e.

The Pathfinder FAQ states "The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast."

[Sayt]

Good find. So there is president on getting this ability and you have to become prestige classed to do so.
Noo nono, I think you have misunderstood Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster) (linked to make sure you foudn the Pathfinder, and not the 3.5 version). Nothing special about Arcane Trickster lets you apply sneak attacks to spells, you can do that anyway. The Arcane Trickster lets you declare by fiat that any given attack you make, X times per day is a sneak attack whether or not it would normally be one.


Basically, Sneak attack damage triggers on certain conditions:

An Attack is being made.
The Target of the attack is denied it's dexterity modifer to AC.
The Target does not have concealment
The Target is not an Aeon, Elemental, Incorporeal, Ooze, Protean, Swarm

If all of the conditions are true, sneak attack damage procs.

The Impromptu Sneak attack automatically make the first two conditions true, whether or not they would other wise be, it seems.

Also, I'm noticing some inconsistency in what counts as an 'attack': Fireball does count as hitting with an attack for sneak attack, but doesn't for turning off Holy Vindicators Shield.

[Necroticplague]

Sneak Attack triggers off of any attack. Anything that requires an attack roll and damage roll is an attack. Thus, if the spell involves and attack roll and damage roll, it is an attack, and you can SA with it. Fireball and MM don't have attack rolls, so are no goees. The various cantrips that are rays, on the other hand, do work. Not even that horrifically powerful, since its easiest to get SA by flanking with melee, instead of trying to flat-foot them from 'range' (not that 'withinn normal move range of most creatures' is much range) every round.

[Forrestfire]

Noo nono, I think you have misunderstood Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster) (linked to make sure you foudn the Pathfinder, and not the 3.5 version). Nothing special about Arcane Trickster lets you apply sneak attacks to spells, you can do that anyway. The Arcane Trickster lets you declare by fiat that any given attack you make, X times per day is a sneak attack whether or not it would normally be one.


Basically, Sneak attack damage triggers on certain conditions:

An Attack is being made.
The Target of the attack is denied it's dexterity modifer to AC.
The Target does not have concealment
The Target is not an Aeon, Elemental, Incorporeal, Ooze, Protean, Swarm

If all of the conditions are true, sneak attack damage procs.

The Impromptu Sneak attack automatically make the first two conditions true, whether or not they would other wise be, it seems.

Also, I'm noticing some inconsistency in what counts as an 'attack': Fireball does count as hitting with an attack for sneak attack, but doesn't for turning off Holy Vindicators Shield.

Imprompty Sneak Attack works on a normal attack (be it with spells or weapons). Also, at level 10, the Arcane Trickster gets the Surprise Spells ability, which lets them apply sneak attack damage to all surprised targets in spells like fireball that don't normally have attack rolls, in addition to how they can normally sneak attack.

[emeraldstreak]

Wandslinger rogues are actually very good. There's a spell that removes the 30' range limit of the sneak attack letting them be spell snipers.

[Psyren]

The hang up I have on it is it you can have a rogue take one level into Sorc, then throwing unlimited orbs of acid vs Touch AC dealing sneak attack damage applied to that.

Or just be an Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained), who can take the Minor Magic talent at level 2 to get a cantrip usable at will. Sneak Acid Orbs all day errday (errday, errday.)

Did I mention you can sneak attack in the dark?

[P.F.]

How about with spells that require an attack roll and deal ability damage (or level drain)? Pathfinder explicitly says these spells can deal critical hits (a precision-based effect) and deal double ability damage or drain on a confirmed critical.

Does sneak attack damage add hit-point damage to these spells?

[DarkSonic1337]

If they carried over the 3.5 rule, then sneak attacking with ability damage/energy drain deals extra hitpoint damage in the form of negative energy.

[elonin]

I'm agreeing with most of what has been said here. If the spell has a hit roll (not counting UMD or level check) and the other requirements of sneak attack are met then the sneak attack damage is applied.

I thought that sneak attacking with an enervation would give sneak dice in extra levels? Though that would be too powerful.

[Necroticplague]

I'm agreeing with most of what has been said here. If the spell has a hit roll (not counting UMD or level check) and the other requirements of sneak attack are met then the sneak attack damage is applied.

I thought that sneak attacking with an enervation would give sneak dice in extra levels? Though that would be too powerful.No. Negative levels are not damage.


How about with spells that require an attack roll and deal ability damage (or level drain)? Pathfinder explicitly says these spells can deal critical hits (a precision-based effect) and deal double ability damage or drain on a confirmed critical.

Does sneak attack damage add hit-point damage to these spells?

Yes.

[AsheItachi]

So sneak attack with potions, i.e.e alchemists fire. And reading scrolls ? This is considered a thing?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Sneak attack damage is always normal precision damage. If your effect does not deal HP damage with an attack roll, it can't sneak attack.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC Pathfinder did nix sneak attacking with flasks, but spells cast from scrolls should work the same as normal spells. If you meet the usual requirements for sneak attack, you can sneak attack with them.

[Sith_Happens]

"Sneak attack normally works with weapon-like spells, including rays. It doesn't normally work with magic missile because that is not a weapon-like spell or ray."-Sean K. Renyolds.

Wait, what? There's a Nice Thing for Rogues that Pathfinder didn't get rid of?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

[TiaC]

Wait, what? There's a Nice Thing for Rogues that Pathfinder didn't get rid of?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

Well, they have to be casters to use this one. Can't be nerfing those Arcane Tricksters.

[Psyren]

Well, they have to be casters to use this one. Can't be nerfing those Arcane Tricksters.

No they don't; both Minor Magic and UMD wands are A Thing.

And you can sneak attack with splash weapons via the Underground Chemist archetype, which Unchained Rogues can also take.

[Necroticplague]

Side note, did anyone else think this would be about using wands as wooden stakes when they first say the thread name?