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Megasaber4000
2015-08-05, 11:59 PM
Hey so I've started a new campaign with some associates and I'm having a good time, but my DM has often ignored me. See I'[m running a chaotic neutral sorcerer with a CHA of 20(that means a+5 mod Pathfinder for life) and i play the character that way. I try to haggle with employers for more gold from them using my skills like bluff (+10 mod) or charm them (+5 mod) and I roll and end up with 15's-17's and not only are they not charmed but they get angry with my character. And these aren't wizards and politicians either they're Farmers and bartenders. But hey don't want low levels getting to much gold i get that, but one time i tried to calm down an angry dirt level peasant. His Dc is probably 6 i could kill him in one hit if i wanted, but when i rolled a 13 to charm him, he blew his top and stormed off. she focuses mostly on her husband and tell him about the rooms and loot.
And it really doesn't help with that i have to put up with the chaotic stupid cleric who tells me to "use my powers for good" and the chaotic neutral BARBARIAN who acts like a lawful stupid paladin trying to "keep me in line" I like these people and the game is fun in combat, but I just feel like I'm not allowed to role play my character. (mind you we randomized our class, race, alignment, gender, and STATS. So I didn't roll up this character to be a ****)

Ailowynn
2015-08-06, 12:36 AM
Talk to your GM. He's being a dumb. I can understand the NPCs' reactions in some situations -- diplomancers can get absolutely ridiculous when they start trivializing encounters, but auto-failing your rolls against random NPCs is ridiculous.

That said . . . based on the reactions of the rest of the group, you might want to look over your own behavior from recent sessions. When they're trying to "rein you in," that's a good indication that they might feel derailed. Don't try to railroad the plot; don't try to go off on your own little side quest; try to go along with what the rest of the group is wanting to do as often as is reasonable (all of those are common pitfalls of the CN alignment). If you don't notice yourself doing those sorts of things, then this probably isn't the group for you -- from your description, it seems like they're being deliberately discourteous.

Of course, this is all just an outside opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

Vitruviansquid
2015-08-06, 12:55 AM
Your DM might be trying to condition you to stop haggling by having bad stuff happen to you when you do.

I'm not in your game, but I could foresee it being annoying if you are trying to run a game of heroic adventure, and someone keeps stopping what you see as the important action (the actual going around and doing quests) to haggle over a few gold pieces all the time.

Geddy2112
2015-08-06, 01:09 AM
While I second the above posters about the warnings of the gamebreaking power of diplomancy(seriously be judicious with it) and particularly the kind that seeks to eek extra copper from any NPC, I don't think this is the case. It would be one thing if you were minmaxing diplomacy, and you rolled up throwing a charm person+glibness to convince the queen that you are the king and she should murder that imposter in his sleep. But as it stands, you are not coming remotely close to that.

When a roll of a 13 on the dice(18 total in diplomacy) to try and calm down random dirtfarmer#28 not only failed, but caused them to become angry then that is pretty garbage. It would be different if you were talking to some powerful outsider, or old dragon, but this was Joe Blow farmer. PC's should be above the rabble, in both mechanics and story.

One thing your DM might be doing is saying to hell with your roll and having checks succeed or fail based on what you say. This can be good or bad-I like rewarding players who don't have the highest perception in the group when they think of a clever way to search. Likewise, if somebody has some great diplomatic speech in RP, I don't make them roll. On the flip side, if you are going up to Joe Blow farmer and telling him to piss off, or that you hate him and he should hand over his money, you are pushing the DC of a diplomacy check into the stratosphere. Or if you are simply saying nothing, and just rolling social skill X and demanding results.

Talk to the DM, and then the group. Just like in real life, some conflict between characters is beneficial and essential to a good story. But when it becomes outright antagonizing of your concept, it needs to be stopped. I also honestly don't understand why the cleric is telling you to use your powers for good, or the barbarian has to keep you in line. In line with what? What good?

goto124
2015-08-06, 01:30 AM
I still haven't found a satisfactory way to handle DnD Diplomancy, to be honest.

Shadowsend
2015-08-06, 02:30 AM
Hey so I've started a new campaign with some associates and I'm having a good time, but my DM has often ignored me. See I'[m running a chaotic neutral sorcerer with a CHA of 20(that means a+5 mod Pathfinder for life) and i play the character that way. I try to haggle with employers for more gold from them using my skills like bluff (+10 mod) or charm them (+5 mod) and I roll and end up with 15's-17's and not only are they not charmed but they get angry with my character. And these aren't wizards and politicians either they're Farmers and bartenders. But hey don't want low levels getting to much gold i get that, but one time i tried to calm down an angry dirt level peasant. His Dc is probably 6 i could kill him in one hit if i wanted, but when i rolled a 13 to charm him, he blew his top and stormed off. she focuses mostly on her husband and tell him about the rooms and loot.
And it really doesn't help with that i have to put up with the chaotic stupid cleric who tells me to "use my powers for good" and the chaotic neutral BARBARIAN who acts like a lawful stupid paladin trying to "keep me in line" I like these people and the game is fun in combat, but I just feel like I'm not allowed to role play my character. (mind you we randomized our class, race, alignment, gender, and STATS. So I didn't roll up this character to be a ****)

Why on earth would you randomize that stuff at the end? Are you so sure of your own abilities at role-playing? Because it sounds like the two you are talking about aren't that good at it, but I don't think describing the other characters in that way is very good for the group morale, even if they don't know you've described them that way, because you're still thinking it. If a DM truly wanted to decide alignments for everyone, he'd start everyone at neutral and then assign alignments after a couple of sessions.

Pathfinder is a group game, it is not a single player RPG. The other players may not appreciate your mercenary actions because it can really slow the game down. Especially if the DM is new and isn't used to "off the cuff" type play.

Also, many of the townspeople actually have decent levels and can pass DC 15 checks. At that point they'd realize you did it too, because they'd feel all tingly and you waved your hands and said wierd words before that.

I'm not sure what your in character goals are, because they sound like typical murderhobo goals. You just haven't started with the murdering yet. That should be concerning for any DM, because it really increases the work needed to be done, just like how huge a "choose your own adventure" book gets if it presents more than 2 choices.

Cazero
2015-08-06, 05:04 AM
While there might be some blame to be put on the GM, this

So I didn't roll up this character to be a ****)
is utterly false.
It is perfectly legitimate to make a 20 CHA character into a silent protagonist type with no social skills to speak of who barely interacts with anyone, especially with sorcerers (as opposed to bards).
It is perfectly in character for a chaotic evil character to side with good against evil outsiders and show true compassion toward a selective few.
You choose how to play your character.

Compulsive haggling based on obvious magic tricks and blatant lies is extremely irritating. I would even argue that it should be a deal breaker for most people. Proper haggling is made with diplomacy. You got it easy if whoever you have been arguing with was merely annoyed by your attempts.

MrStabby
2015-08-06, 07:14 AM
I think you are getting shafted, maybe slightly by the DM but mainly by the system.

The DM has to assign NPCs stats to make plot arcs and individual encounters challenging. The DM may make diplomacy harder to limit its effects or put people under such duress they cannot change their minds. Letting someone influence the game so much through diplomacy and "normal" DC level checks can undo all their preparations. As a DM it is still something I don't yet feel I have right.

A character who does put resources into social skills should get a proportionate return on them and it should be considered legitimate skills to use. I have found myself (wrongly) keeping probabilities of success constant for one of my players as more resources are poured in to social skills - this means they get no benefit in their chosen area of expertise but fall further and further behind in combat potential.

Haggling for gold and calming down random NPCs are actually some of the least plot-breaking uses of the skill; I think the DM should let these situations be the ones where you get the best use of your skill.

I also concur with the issues other people raise - that of time. In a large party you may be taking a lot of time in the spotlight if you do the talking and if your activity is to do even more talking. If your table supports a strong RP element to it and they get similar opportunities then this may be less of an issue.

One question I would ask, is is this the only area where you think you are strong? If you are weak in combat and don't have much by way of utility spells then people taking away your only strength is a bit of a jerk move. If you are competent in combat and have other ways to add to the effectiveness of the party it is no big deal. If you feel strongly about diplomacy being your thing, rather than something you are doing because there is an opportunity make sure the other players know.

From a cynical perspective you could work your alignment towards lawful good - for any opponent there is a non zero chance that they are not evil or that they could be turned from evil to good. Your beliefs drive your action to speak and negotiate in preference to combat. This gives you an IC reason to talk and should hopefully at least get your cleric onside. It also has the advantage that is is different and may seem less petty than haggling for a few coins from NPCs.

Socksy
2015-08-06, 09:26 AM
Why on earth would you randomize that stuff at the end?

...

Also, many of the townspeople actually have decent levels and can pass DC 15 checks. At that point they'd realize you did it too, because they'd feel all tingly and you waved your hands and said wierd words before that.

To answer the first part, I think that was the DM's decision.
As for the second part, I don't think he's casting anything. He rolled high purely because of his high Charisma score. It's not magical.

Also, to the person who seems against simply rolling social stat X instead of talking to the NPC and then rolling it, it's necessary for some groups/players, for example if I end up playing someone with high charisma, I have to just roll because I'm autistic and cannot interact with people like my character could.

mephnick
2015-08-06, 09:29 AM
I still haven't found a satisfactory way to handle DnD Diplomancy, to be honest.

I just don't let it do anything stupid because it isn't mind control. It should slightly influence a tough social encounter, or sway a neutral one. It's not going to make anyone do something they don't want to do. You can't convince me to give you my car just because you're charming, my family's entire livelihood depends on having transportation. If you told me to give you my car and rolled a 50+ on diplomacy, I'm still saying "Sorry man, I wish I could help but maybe take the bus yo".

In terms of the OP, it's hard to say without seeing the game. The dirt farmer should have calmed down, sure, but as a DM and a player I HATE BARGAINING. It's so boring I wish it had never been a printed option. Perhaps what the OP finds as fun social encounters, the rest of the group sees as bogging down the game. It may just be a problem of wrong group for the wrong player.

MrStabby
2015-08-06, 09:57 AM
I just don't let it do anything stupid because it isn't mind control. It should slightly influence a tough social encounter, or sway a neutral one. It's not going to make anyone do something they don't want to do. You can't convince me to give you my car just because you're charming,

Sometimes it's amazing what you can get away with if you ask (Safe for work): http://www.loweringthebar.net/2015/08/tip-girlfriend-snake.html

TheThan
2015-08-06, 01:08 PM
Yeah, the first thing I would do is try to talk to the DM. figure out what is so “wrong” with your character and correct it.

Now judging from the OP; it looks like you’re trying to charm (not the spell, the act) EVERYONE. Which I can see as being a problem. Pick your targets more carefully. What purpose would it serve you to charm a dirt farmer?

Megasaber4000
2015-08-06, 03:10 PM
One question I would ask, is is this the only area where you think you are strong? If you are weak in combat and don't have much by way of utility spells then people taking away your only strength is a bit of a jerk move. If you are competent in combat and have other ways to add to the effectiveness of the party it is no big deal. If you feel strongly about diplomacy being your thing, rather than something you are doing because there is an opportunity make sure the other players know.

Actually I excel in combat. I find lower level elemental sorcerer is quite OP.
Ex. Quicken spell burning hands then scorching Ray at most that's 36 DMG, a lot for a low level.

nedz
2015-08-06, 04:50 PM
Actually I excel in combat. I find lower level elemental sorcerer is quite OP.
Ex. Quicken spell burning hands then scorching Ray at most that's 36 DMG, a lot for a low level.

Quickened Burning Hands takes a level 5 spell slot, assuming no metamagic reducers, is hardly low level.

Megasaber4000
2015-08-06, 04:59 PM
Quickened Burning Hands takes a level 5 spell slot, assuming no metamagic reducers, is hardly low level.
Your damn right im using meta magic

Red Fel
2015-08-06, 05:21 PM
Your damn right im using meta magic

One, watch your tone.

Two, nedz was referring to metamagic reducers - as in, things that cause your metamagics to increase a spell's level by less, such as Arcane Thesis.

Three, nedz was observing that, absent those reducers, you aren't using Quickened Burning Hands at low level. Burning Hands is a 1st-level spell, but Quicken Spell increases it to 5th-level. You get 5th-level spells at Sorcerer 10, which isn't really low level anymore.

nedz
2015-08-06, 05:31 PM
One, watch your tone.

Two, nedz was referring to metamagic reducers - as in, things that cause your metamagics to increase a spell's level by less, such as Arcane Thesis.

Three, nedz was observing that, absent those reducers, you aren't using Quickened Burning Hands at low level. Burning Hands is a 1st-level spell, but Quicken Spell increases it to 5th-level. You get 5th-level spells at Sorcerer 10, which isn't really low level anymore.

Exactly — I do have a habit of being very concise, too much perhaps.

And 36 damage, from a level 5 and a level 2 spell slot, isn't very much at level 10.

NichG
2015-08-06, 06:29 PM
To the OP, I'd suggest the following exercise: on this thread, propose a mechanic for evaluating how NPCs should respond to your haggling, but make sure that its a mechanic that you would be okay with NPCs also using on you as a PC. That is, if you decide 'a DC 20 means that they give me an item', then you also should be okay with an NPC coming up to you, making a DC 20 check, and having you give them your gear.

Then, to get a bit of the DM point of view, work out the consequences of this mechanic being in operation for the game. Will it generate infinite wealth? What will it bypass? What will it enable? How does the world work now if this mechanic is in play for everyone in the world? How does the mechanic change the allocation of table time (e.g. does it mean that it will take longer to resolve your scenes, and how much longer?)

Even if you don't actually propose this mechanic to your DM, the exercise should help you be a lot more concrete about what you want from your mechanics when you talk to them about this. Its helpful to be able to say something like 'I think that I should be able to earn at least as much gold using Bluff as a con artist as I could using Profession at the same level' instead of just 'I think I should be succeeding more', because its concrete and it tells the DM more precisely what they'd have to do to address your concerns, rather than leaving it vague (which means they could try to do it differently and you might still be unsatisfied).

MrStabby
2015-08-06, 07:57 PM
One, watch your tone.

Two, nedz was referring to metamagic reducers - as in, things that cause your metamagics to increase a spell's level by less, such as Arcane Thesis.

Three, nedz was observing that, absent those reducers, you aren't using Quickened Burning Hands at low level. Burning Hands is a 1st-level spell, but Quicken Spell increases it to 5th-level. You get 5th-level spells at Sorcerer 10, which isn't really low level anymore.

Depends which edition you are using.

In 5th edition...

TheIronGolem
2015-08-06, 08:03 PM
Depends which edition you are using.

In 5th edition...

Yes, but the OP states it's Pathfinder.

MrStabby
2015-08-06, 08:13 PM
Yes, but the OP states it's Pathfinder.

A good point.

Sith_Happens
2015-08-07, 12:24 AM
Your DM might be trying to condition you to stop haggling by having bad stuff happen to you when you do.

I'm not in your game, but I could foresee it being annoying if you are trying to run a game of heroic adventure, and someone keeps stopping what you see as the important action (the actual going around and doing quests) to haggle over a few gold pieces all the time.

So much this. My first ever session with my current group, one player spent 30 minutes IRL arguing with a general store clerk over pocket change (the margins eventually got down to sp). The rest of us impressed upon him to never do that again.

goto124
2015-08-07, 04:26 AM
one player spent 30 minutes IRL arguing with a general store clerk over pocket change

I thought you meant someone argued with an RL general store clerk, in a RL general store :smalltongue:

1337 b4k4
2015-08-07, 12:27 PM
As other's have said, if your whole group is trying to reign you in, then you're doing something that's bothering them all. You need to talk to the GM and your group and figure out what's going on. Either you need to adjust your play, they need to understand your goals and accept them, you all need to play a different game or you need to not play in this game, possibly a compromise on more than one of these things. These aren't bad things per se, there's no reason why any one person should be be a fit for any one game.

That said, high charisma even with high rolls is not an "I get what I want" button. I can think of plenty of scenarios where even a wonderfully charismatic person would fail to get what they want out of an interaction, and even make the person they're negotiating with angry. As an example, charisma or no, if you've asked many times, and the employer has either already upped their offer once, or already declined, they could few you as being pushy and rude or greedy.

As for calming someone down, well, consider this. My SO recently received some absolutely devastating news. Of the "you life is forever changed" variety. They are rather upset by this turn of events. I as the spouse may not have a rocking charisma score, but in any diplomacy / charm check I would have huge situational bonuses because "spouse". And yet, there has been plenty of incidents over the past few weeks and months when in attempting to calm them down, I've said just the wrong thing, or said the right thing but at the wrong time and they've wound up angry at me, rather than calmed. No matter how great your charisma score if, for example, you burned down the peasant's farm and their livelihood, you're not going to calm them down very successfully. Maybe a good roll might mean they don't start a quest of revenge against you, but it's certainly not going to change the fact that their life is ruined and you are the cause of it.

Strigon
2015-08-07, 01:48 PM
1) You're getting screwed hard. In many places owned and operated by a single person, haggling is expected. If it's part of a chain, then they might say no, but getting upset is just the DM being a jerk.

2)

I just don't let it do anything stupid because it isn't mind control. It should slightly influence a tough social encounter, or sway a neutral one. It's not going to make anyone do something they don't want to do. You can't convince me to give you my car just because you're charming, my family's entire livelihood depends on having transportation. If you told me to give you my car and rolled a 50+ on diplomacy, I'm still saying "Sorry man, I wish I could help but maybe take the bus yo".

You're kidding, right? Sure the DC for that might be quite high, but 50+ is getting in the territory of divinity. Now, of course, had you said nobody on Earth could talk you into doing that, I'd agree. It's ridiculous. But we aren't even in the realm of normal people when we go above a DC of about 20.
Think about this: By RAW, a check result of 50 on a Jump check will enable you to leap 25 feet horizontally... from a standstill. It's so mind-bogglingly out of the realm of human possibility that dismissing it like that is not right.
Another example: If he got a 50+ on a listen check, he could hear an owl gliding. Through a stone wall. While distracted.

A check above 50 lets you do things that are flat-out impossible for humans as we know them.

Lord Torath
2015-08-07, 02:45 PM
I could see convincing someone to lend you their car. Bluff that you're a police/FBI officer, or a sob story that your spouse has been in a car accident, or even a tale that your car broke down, and you're on your way to an important job interview, "and I promise I'll bring it back as soon as I can!" Your dress and condition will certainly play a part, and a fake/stolen badge could certainly provide a circumstance bonus depending on the tale you want to spin. But it's not out of the realm of plausibility. Getting a queen to hand over her country, on the other hand...

I agree with others that you should discuss this with your DM away from the table. Ask her what she feels are acceptable uses of your diplomacy and high charisma, and how she wants you to use it (.i.e. do you need to tell her the gist of what you want to say, or do you need to say exactly what your character says?). Can she and you resolve these checks in five minutes, rather than half an hour? That will go a long way toward lowering the animosity of the other players.

Ask the other players what your character has done to convince them that he is evil and needs to change his ways. And if you are the sole evil PC, seriously consider shifting to Neutral (but not Chaotic Neutral. Everyone hates Chaotic Neutral) to better mesh with the party.

Read The Worst Player You've Ever Been/Seen/Heard Of (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373664-The-Worst-player-you-ve-ever-had-seen-been-heard-of) with an eye to whether any of the cited behaviors are things you are guilty of. And be honest with yourself. I've seen things there that I'm guilty of (although not to the extremes cited in the thread) and need to work on.

TL/DR: Discuss out of character with the DM and other players, and critically examine your own behavior.

1337 b4k4
2015-08-07, 02:56 PM
1) You're getting screwed hard. In many places owned and operated by a single person, haggling is expected. If it's part of a chain, then they might say no, but getting upset is just the DM being a jerk.


Haggling might be expected, but it all depends on how the OP is actually approaching the issue at hand. The OP is negotiating with farmers and barkeeps for employment, I'm assuming missions and quests here. If the farmer is offering all the gold he has saved up and the OP is haggling for more (e.g. "I think I want your horses too"), I could certainly see he farmer getting angry that the OP is being so greedy. Having charisma doesn't mean you're immune to making people dislike you. To use a real world example, President Clinton was well known for being very charismatic, but it still didn't prevent him from being impeached. How many famous people with off the charts charisma are still known to be jerks in person?

Cazero
2015-08-07, 02:57 PM
In many places owned and operated by a single person, haggling is expected.

Maybe, but if the haggling take the form of 'clearly that thing is in poor condition and you should cut your price' (bluff) or 'could you pretty please get me a bargain, wink wink nudge nudge' (charm), I fully expect the shopkeeper to kick you out.

hymer
2015-08-08, 05:42 AM
Maybe, but if the haggling take the form of 'clearly that thing is in poor condition and you should cut your price' (bluff) or 'could you pretty please get me a bargain, wink wink nudge nudge' (charm), I fully expect the shopkeeper to kick you out.

That reminds of a story (http://notalwaysright.com/dont-discount-the-customers-ability-to-discount-part-4/44461) I once heard. :smallbiggrin:

JAL_1138
2015-08-08, 08:07 AM
Fred Rogers once Diplomanced 20 million bucks in public television funding out of the US Senate with a short, informal speech and some somg lyrics from his show, which he read as a poem. Don't sell persuasion abilities short.

neonagash
2015-08-08, 11:24 AM
Fred Rogers once Diplomanced 20 million bucks in public television funding out of the US Senate with a short, informal speech and some somg lyrics from his show, which he read as a poem. Don't sell persuasion abilities short.

Its a lot easier to get someone to give other peoples money to your cause then their own.

To the OP I'd lay off haggling over nickels. Other people already mentioned and I will second that it can be incredibly annoying to the other players and GM when one person constantly breaks up the action to barter over insignificant minutia.

Try saving it for a few big things that actually matter and you'll likely find the other players much more tolerant.

ArcanaFire
2015-08-08, 02:35 PM
I've seen this said a couple of times, but I'm going to say it again; yes, the dice matter, but what you say also matters. Your roll is going to effect the predisposition of the NPC to be okay with what you're saying, but even a dirt farmer has some pride, and just being poor and powerless doesn't mean you have to listen to someone you don't even know walking up to you and telling you they have to give you more money than they already have.

These aren't wizards and politicians, who could afford to give a little extra...these are farmers and bartenders...for whom a couple of gold pieces here and there likely makes the difference between whether or not they eat this week. Or whether or not their children do.

Yes, they are low level, but they are also poor, and the money is going to mean a lot more to them than it would to a higher level character that has it to spare. Ergo, I think it makes a lot of sense that it would be way harder to get that poor farmer or bartender to part with extra gold pieces.

Someone walks up and you really need these giant rats cleared out of your basement so you go ahead and pay them to do it, even though you know you don't have it to spare and are already shaky on whether or not you're going to be able to make rent this month, then they do it and come back and start trying to strong arm more out of you?

Getting angry is a pretty natural response.

It's easy to forget that, in the world of the game the NPCs are people. From the NPC's perspective, though, this is their livelihood, not just "level 6 farmer getting irrationally angry".

Lord Raziere
2015-08-08, 03:18 PM
Maybe, but if the haggling take the form of 'clearly that thing is in poor condition and you should cut your price' (bluff) or 'could you pretty please get me a bargain, wink wink nudge nudge' (charm), I fully expect the shopkeeper to kick you out.

I dunno, that seems a pretty reasonable use of social skills to me. would get things going faster than haggling over every little coin....

HammeredWharf
2015-08-10, 05:58 AM
I think it's just that the DM isn't comfortable with making stuff up on the fly. He decided the quest reward is 200 gp and you'll find 400 gp worth of loot in the process. If he wanted to, he could give you 250 gp for the quest itself and 350 gp as loot, but he didn't get that idea right away. That's not really a problem. You learn to handle this stuff as you DM more. The DM is in complete control of party finances via loot, so making a fuss over haggling makes no sense.

daelrog
2015-08-10, 02:38 PM
To answer the OP, it does sound like you're being treated unfairly. It sounds like the GM, and at least two of the other players have an issue with your character, and instead of letting you know what the issue is, they are trying to condition the action and behavior they want from the character. I can't say whether the problem they're having is valid or not, but I think what's unfair is they're not being upfront about it.


I can say it because I've made the mistake of trying to encourage and discourage behavior of players through having them succeed of fail regardless of the dice. I've learned over time it's easier to just go out and say out of character, "I'm seeing X from your character, which is causing Y problem for the game". My advice to you is just ask the GM and players of what they'd like to see to make the game work, out of character, and work things out more openly than trying to play a guessing game.